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  1. #21
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    Feb 2007
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    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Do you think this is what the vast majority of all college hoops referees do in the final minute of a close game?
    It doesn't matter if hoops referees judge differently. The call was made and once it was made Serena stepped over the line. Do you think that a basketball player telling a referee, "I'm going to shove this ball down your ... throat!" is going to be remain in the game after saying that? I don't.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Partly Orlando, FL partly heard Sandpoint, ID
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    From the standpoint of someone who has reffed volleyball games, there's a huge difference between knowing the rules and being able to referee a game.
    Of course, it helps if you go through the rules changes for the year more than half an hour before reffing your first game of the year(just struck a chord with me, since I was driving myself nuts when I unexpectedly had to ref a volleyball match last week and wasn't prepared for the changes in net calls, almost blew the whistle a half dozen times for things that no longer get called, and spent the whole match off balance).

  3. #23
    The tape I saw of the incident showed her ranting that the line judge, then setting up to serve the next point. Then she went back over and ranted at the line judge again. I think she would have gotten away with the tirade and no penalty point if she hadn't returned for a second rant.

    Also, when she was talking to the head referee at the net, she said that she didn't threaten to kill the line judge. I thought I heard a voice, possibly from the stands, say yes you did. Did anyone else hear or notice this?

  4. #24
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    Feb 2007
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    Durham, NC
    She was on Good Morning America this morning, and, apparently, she has a new book out. Hmmmmm . . . is it possible that she felt there was no way she was going to beat Clijsters at the end and the tirade/spectacle was a bit of a publicity stunt? A way for her to lose yet still get the attention and hey! by the way, I have a new book out!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    She was on Good Morning America this morning, and, apparently, she has a new book out. Hmmmmm . . . is it possible that she felt there was no way she was going to beat Clijsters at the end and the tirade/spectacle was a bit of a publicity stunt? A way for her to lose yet still get the attention and hey! by the way, I have a new book out!
    What a strange interview this morning. How many times did she say the title of her book in three minutes? Highly doubt she planned her tirade. Serena wants nothing more than to win. I think she was frustrated that Clijsters could take 2 years off, come back, and wallop her, and just flipped out on the line judge. No excuse for her behavior, but at least she issued a real apology. I agree with another poster who said someone should be fired for that initial statement Serena issued.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    It doesn't matter if hoops referees judge differently. The call was made and once it was made Serena stepped over the line. Do you think that a basketball player telling a referee, "I'm going to shove this ball down your ... throat!" is going to be remain in the game after saying that? I don't.
    These are two completely different issues.

    I think we can all agree that Serena's behavior was more than pathetic! IMO, there's is absolutely, positively, no excuse for Serena's horrible display!

    My question is do referees, in all sports, always make a call regardless of the infraction's time in the sporting event, or do they make less "minor" infraction calls at the end of a sporting event, so their "minor" infraction call does not determine the outcome?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilBaby
    I agree with another poster who said someone should be fired for that initial statement Serena issued.
    IMO, Serena is the one ultimately accountable and responsible for what she says. Is it possible that Serena edited the initial statement before making it?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInKansas View Post
    Also, when she was talking to the head referee at the net, she said that she didn't threaten to kill the line judge. I thought I heard a voice, possibly from the stands, say yes you did. Did anyone else hear or notice this?
    I did, and I burst out laughing. It was hilarious.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInKansas View Post
    Also, when she was talking to the head referee at the net, she said that she didn't threaten to kill the line judge. I thought I heard a voice, possibly from the stands, say yes you did. Did anyone else hear or notice this?
    I'm not a doctor, but I think shoving a tennis ball down someones throat might be fatal. So in a way she did threaten to kill the line judge.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by allenmurray View Post
    I'm not a doctor, but I think shoving a tennis ball down someones throat might be fatal. So in a way she did threaten to kill the line judge.
    Apparently, Serena was talking literally, not figuratively. She was ready to argue the semantics of her rant.

    I'm with you. I think shoving a tennis ball down someone's throat would be detrimental to their longevity. Interferring with the breathing process is not a healthy thing.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    IMO, Serena is the one ultimately accountable and responsible for what she says. Is it possible that Serena edited the initial statement before making it?
    Sure, it's possible. That being said, I doubt she edited the statement before it was issued. I think the most likely scenario is that one of her PR people talked to her about issuing a statement, then drafted a statement based on what she said and got a final OK from her before issuing it. I don't disagree that Serena is responsible for its content.

    My point, though, was that sometimes an adviser has to step in, have a candid conversation and stop the client from doing something that's likely to make the stituation worse and, ultimately, hurt the client's long-term interests. It's not easy, especially if your client is strong-willed and heavily emotionally invested, but it's something that good agents, lawyers and advisers know how to do -- and it's something that Serena's handlers pretty clearly didn't do in this case.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom B. View Post
    Sure, it's possible. That being said, I doubt she edited the statement before it was issued. I think the most likely scenario is that one of her PR people talked to her about issuing a statement, then drafted a statement based on what she said and got a final OK from her before issuing it. I don't disagree that Serena is responsible for its content.

    My point, though, was that sometimes an adviser has to step in, have a candid conversation and stop the client from doing something that's likely to make the stituation worse and, ultimately, hurt the client's long-term interests. It's not easy, especially if your client is strong-willed and heavily emotionally invested, but it's something that good agents, lawyers and advisers know how to do -- and it's something that Serena's handlers pretty clearly didn't do in this case.
    I completely agree with your point. My point is, I would not immediately conclude that Serena's handlers should be fired without first knowing what was said between them. Even the best may not be able to handle Serena at times like this. I was almost as surprised by Serena's behavior in the post-match press conference as her behavior on the court. She appears to be a very complex individual who may be all but impossible to handle.

    Maybe it's just the manager in me. I would not conclude that someone should be terminated without first knowing all the available facts and hearing all sides of the story.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    These are two completely different issues.

    I think we can all agree that Serena's behavior was more than pathetic! IMO, there's is absolutely, positively, no excuse for Serena's horrible display!

    My question is do referees, in all sports, always make a call regardless of the infraction's time in the sporting event, or do they make less "minor" infraction calls at the end of a sporting event, so their "minor" infraction call does not determine the outcome?
    To answer your question, "No" referees don't ALWAYS make the calls on "minor" infractions. That's not a very good question though. I think that line calls are easier to call consistently than some other types of calls and less likely to be treated differently near the conclusion of a game/match? I would also dispute your implication that a foot fault is minor. Not making the call puts the opponent at a disadvantage.

    Here are some similar situations I thought of in other sports.

    Volleyball
    Stepping on the end line during a serve.

    Basketball
    Stepping in bounds during a throw in.
    Stepping on the free throw line during a free throw.

    Football
    Stepping on the sideline during a run.

    Are any of these treated differently during the end of a game/match?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    I would also dispute your implication that a foot fault is minor. Not making the call puts the opponent at a disadvantage.
    Huh? The replay may not be conclusive, but it is apparent that if any foot fault occurred, at most Serena would have been barely touching the line. How can one centimeter put the opponent at a disadvantage?

    Hey, a rule is a rule, and if Serena broke it, fine. But this particular call is very, very rare. I have never seen it called at that junction in a match. Have you?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by camion
    I think that line calls are easier to call consistently than some other types of calls and less likely to be treated differently near the conclusion of a game/match?
    We see on replays that line calls are frequently wrong (happens multiple times in almost every match).

    Quote Originally Posted by camion
    I would also dispute your implication that a foot fault is minor. Not making the call puts the opponent at a disadvantage.
    I completely agree with cato on the magnitude of Serena's possible foot fault advantage.

    I think that allowing players to charge, and commit other fouls, at the end of an NCAA hoops game is a much larger advantage.

    I think that the NBA's hesitation to foul-out superstars is a much larger advantage.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    To answer your question, "No" referees don't ALWAYS make the calls on "minor" infractions. That's not a very good question though. I think that line calls are easier to call consistently than some other types of calls and less likely to be treated differently near the conclusion of a game/match? I would also dispute your implication that a foot fault is minor. Not making the call puts the opponent at a disadvantage.

    Here are some similar situations I thought of in other sports.

    Volleyball
    Stepping on the end line during a serve.

    Basketball
    Stepping in bounds during a throw in.
    Stepping on the free throw line during a free throw.

    Football
    Stepping on the sideline during a run.

    Are any of these treated differently during the end of a game/match?
    A fault that puts a player at a disadvantage is, by definition, a subjective call. Your examples, and the foot fault in tennis, are not subjective calls but line faults. And faults have to be called. Let's not muddy the waters by assuming that referees have the discretion to not call line faults.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Huh? The replay may not be conclusive, but it is apparent that if any foot fault occurred, at most Serena would have been barely touching the line. How can one centimeter put the opponent at a disadvantage?

    Hey, a rule is a rule, and if Serena broke it, fine. But this particular call is very, very rare. I have never seen it called at that junction in a match. Have you?
    When was the last time you saw a foot fault called in tennis? They rarely happen and therefore the chances of it happening near match point are even rarer.

    But, that is besides the point. If the line judge saw her touch the line then the line judge has an obligation to make the call.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    When was the last time you saw a foot fault called in tennis? They rarely happen and therefore the chances of it happening near match point are even rarer.

    But, that is besides the point. If the line judge saw her touch the line then the line judge has an obligation to make the call.
    What is your basis for saying that they rarely happen? Because they are rarely called?

    At any rate, perhaps I wasn't clear on my point. For a call that is so rare, I would like to know what actually happened. I'm not disagreeing that a violation should be called if it happened. I am skeptical whether it happened. I'm just saying that I wish I knew whether the call was correct. Too bad the replay can't show us what actually happened.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    What is your basis for saying that they rarely happen? Because they are rarely called?

    At any rate, perhaps I wasn't clear on my point. For a call that is so rare, I would like to know what actually happened. I'm not disagreeing that a violation should be called if it happened. I am skeptical whether it happened. I'm just saying that I wish I knew whether the call was correct. Too bad the replay can't show us what actually happened.
    As I said higher up this thread, it doesn't matter if it actually happened. Making calls in sports is NOT about the making the correct call. That's impossible since noone knows if it's any call is absolutely correct and therefore you cannot place that burden on the referee. What referees strive for is the correct process in making a call.

    In this case the process requires that if the line judge sees a foot fault during the serve then a foot fault has to called. If the head referee thinks the call is wrong then hte call is overruled. If the player believes the call is wrong then they appeal to the head referee. Whether the call is correct is completely besides the point.

    So, to answer you question, yes, foot faults rarely happen because they are rarely called. The foot fault isn't an subjective call. If it's seen then it's called. If it's not seen then it's not called.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    As I said higher up this thread, it doesn't matter if it actually happened. Making calls in sports is NOT about the making the correct call. That's impossible since noone knows if it's any call is absolutely correct and therefore you cannot place that burden on the referee. What referees strive for is the correct process in making a call.

    In this case the process requires that if the line judge sees a foot fault during the serve then a foot fault has to called. If the head referee thinks the call is wrong then hte call is overruled. If the player believes the call is wrong then they appeal to the head referee. Whether the call is correct is completely besides the point.

    So, to answer you question, yes, foot faults rarely happen because they are rarely called. The foot fault isn't an subjective call. If it's seen then it's called. If it's not seen then it's not called.
    Thanks for answering my questions and missing my point. I care what actually happened, because I'm curious about the truth. You seem to be more worried about the process of judging and defending the line judge. Defend away. I just wish that there was a camera angle to let me know whether the call was right, or whether the line judge blew it.

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