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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Mizzou, post-Quin

    Point Guard Play

    There's an interesting, albeit off topic, discussion in the HB thread.

    So I ask this question:

    Would you rather have a senior shooting guard turned point, who makes heady plays (few turnovers), but doesn't exactly dazzle with breaking down defenses, or an inexperienced point guard not asked to do much his freshman year, and admittedly, who didn't show very much as a result?

    I actually think it's a pretty fascinating sports fan hypothetical. One team has all the experience in the world, but not much NCAA tourney success. The other has youth, youth and more youth, so the jury is completely out. Obviously, Duke has very good players, and the incoming freshmen should certainly improve the core. But those very good players have faltered in the tournament, so to praise their experience as the deciding factor, to me, is to be content with very good regular season numbers and little more. On the other hand, there's no way to tell how good youth will be, but they do have the players at each position. So, would you rather have no actual point guard, but upperclassmen in the spot, or a true point guard that has not been given the keys yet? (And this is not a question of depth, first because both teams are shallow at guard, but second because a player shouldn't be judged on what would happen if he weren't in the game).

    Of course, it's all hypothetical. Duke would rather have their junior combo guard have the breakout season, and Carolina would like it's second year true point to have the standard freshman to sophmore jump.

    Also from the conversation in the other thread, I agree that Drew II looked a bit like young QT, but if he can improve to senior year QT (an improvement I think happened out of necessity for Thomas, and therefore, may very well happen for Drew), well, I'll take that in a "rebuilding" year any time. QT had some very fine moments in '08, and if Drew can match that, well, we'll take some lumps, but man, we could be there at the end.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by shoutingncu View Post
    There's an interesting, albeit off topic, discussion in the HB thread.

    So I ask this question:

    Would you rather have a senior shooting guard turned point, who makes heady plays (few turnovers), but doesn't exactly dazzle with breaking down defenses, or an inexperienced point guard not asked to do much his freshman year, and admittedly, who didn't show very much as a result?

    I actually think it's a pretty fascinating sports fan hypothetical. One team has all the experience in the world, but not much NCAA tourney success. The other has youth, youth and more youth, so the jury is completely out. Obviously, Duke has very good players, and the incoming freshmen should certainly improve the core. But those very good players have faltered in the tournament, so to praise their experience as the deciding factor, to me, is to be content with very good regular season numbers and little more. On the other hand, there's no way to tell how good youth will be, but they do have the players at each position. So, would you rather have no actual point guard, but upperclassmen in the spot, or a true point guard that has not been given the keys yet? (And this is not a question of depth, first because both teams are shallow at guard, but second because a player shouldn't be judged on what would happen if he weren't in the game).

    Of course, it's all hypothetical. Duke would rather have their junior combo guard have the breakout season, and Carolina would like it's second year true point to have the standard freshman to sophmore jump.

    Also from the conversation in the other thread, I agree that Drew II looked a bit like young QT, but if he can improve to senior year QT (an improvement I think happened out of necessity for Thomas, and therefore, may very well happen for Drew), well, I'll take that in a "rebuilding" year any time. QT had some very fine moments in '08, and if Drew can match that, well, we'll take some lumps, but man, we could be there at the end.
    I'll jump in here since I think I made the claim that I would much rather be in Duke's backcourt situation than in UNC's. With two "combo guards" having had at least a half a year's experience playing PG for a very difficult regular season schedule and some postseason play, I absolutely feel Duke is in a much better position in the backcourt next year. LD2 averaged less than 2 mins a game, less than 2 pts a game, etc, etc last year and one of those games was against Radford. Experience is very important, especially at the PG position and especially during ACC and tough non-conference play. It doesn't always trump talent but it certainly doesn't hurt. Comparing Nolan and Jon sharing PG duties this year (per their words) to LD2 and a rotation of Ginyard, Strickland, Watts, and Mcdonald, I'll take our guys everyday. That's before sprinkling in a little Dawkins in the mix.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by airowe View Post
    I'll jump in here since I think I made the claim that I would much rather be in Duke's backcourt situation than in UNC's. With two "combo guards" having had at least a half a year's experience playing PG for a very difficult regular season schedule and some postseason play, I absolutely feel Duke is in a much better position in the backcourt next year. LD2 averaged less than 2 mins a game, less than 2 pts a game, etc, etc last year and one of those games was against Radford. Experience is very important, especially at the PG position and especially during ACC and tough non-conference play. It doesn't always trump talent but it certainly doesn't hurt. Comparing Nolan and Jon sharing PG duties this year (per their words) to LD2 and a rotation of Ginyard, Strickland, Watts, and Mcdonald, I'll take our guys everyday. That's before sprinkling in a little Dawkins in the mix.
    I certainly agree with you. In this case, less is more. Smith and Scheyer are two great guards with Smith being a a) defensive stopper, b) athletic and c) having an improved shot and Scheyer a) being ridiculously smart on the court, b) great defense and c) having a game face that scares the hell out of opponents (after three years of watching the kid, I still have no idea what expression is. I also laugh when the Maryland fans have those signs...). With the exception of Ginyard, everyone in the backcourt is inexperienced. And I guarantee that someone (my money's on Strickland) will transfer at the end of the year, IMO (unfortunately, their 2010 recruits in the backcourt are looking pretty damn good).

    Also, I like having Dawkins. IMO, I don't think he's ready for college ball, not to mention the ACC. However, he is a great insurance policy who will team up with Seth to provide an amazing backcourt tandem in the future. While I still wish we had Williams, I think having only Dawkins as a sub will make Smith and Scheyer play smarter and more efficiently.

  4. #4
    Drew II played 9.6 MPG and only scored 1.4 PPG with 1.9 Assists and 1.1 Turnovers.

    He had a good first round game versus Radford 19 Min, 2 points, 5 assists and 1 turnover.

    In the other 5 NCAA games, his totals were 24 min, 5 points, 1 assist and 0 turnovers. so his totals for the 6 NCAA games was 43 Minutes, 7 points, 6 assists and 1 turnover.

    Albeit in only 3 NCAA games versus UNC's 6, Smith totaled 66 Min, 28 points, 7 assists and 3 turnovers while Scheyer logged 99 min, 41 points, 8 assists and 4 turnovers.

    Smith for the season played 21.6 MPG, scored 8.4 PPG, had 1.7 Assists and 1.6 Turnovers, while Scheyer played 32.8 MPG, scored 14.9, has 2.8 Assists and 1.5 TO per game.

    So, no way UNC would have an advantage over Duke at guard slots.

    When I read the OP, I thought perhaps the comparison was UK having promising frosh Wall and Bledsoe versus Duke having veteran combos. not UNC where Drew II was a decent (RSCI rated 44) but not great HS player with good blood lines. By comparison Smith's RSCI was 19 and Scheyer 28.

    Walls' RSCI was 2 and Bledsoe 52.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by shoutingncu View Post
    Also from the conversation in the other thread, I agree that Drew II looked a bit like young QT, but if he can improve to senior year QT (an improvement I think happened out of necessity for Thomas, and therefore, may very well happen for Drew), well, I'll take that in a "rebuilding" year any time. QT had some very fine moments in '08, and if Drew can match that, well, we'll take some lumps, but man, we could be there at the end.
    One thing to note is that from a PG stats perspective (assists, TO, and the A/T ratio) compared to minutes played, QT had a better Sophomore season then Senior season. And if you are using QT as the measuring stick for LD2 then I hope for your sake that there is someone else on the roster ready to take his place

    here's QT's stats - I changed the graphs on the side to reflect Assists and Turnovers and the associated ratios:
    http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla...turnover_ratio

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    Drew II played 9.6 MPG and only scored 1.4 PPG with 1.9 Assists and 1.1 Turnovers.

    He had a good first round game versus Radford 19 Min, 2 points, 5 assists and 1 turnover.

    In the other 5 NCAA games, his totals were 24 min, 5 points, 1 assist and 0 turnovers. so his totals for the 6 NCAA games was 43 Minutes, 7 points, 6 assists and 1 turnover.

    Albeit in only 3 NCAA games versus UNC's 6, Smith totaled 66 Min, 28 points, 7 assists and 3 turnovers while Scheyer logged 99 min, 41 points, 8 assists and 4 turnovers.

    Smith for the season played 21.6 MPG, scored 8.4 PPG, had 1.7 Assists and 1.6 Turnovers, while Scheyer played 32.8 MPG, scored 14.9, has 2.8 Assists and 1.5 TO per game.

    So, no way UNC would have an advantage over Duke at guard slots.

    When I read the OP, I thought perhaps the comparison was UK having promising frosh Wall and Bledsoe versus Duke having veteran combos. not UNC where Drew II was a decent (RSCI rated 44) but not great HS player with good blood lines. By comparison Smith's RSCI was 19 and Scheyer 28.

    Walls' RSCI was 2 and Bledsoe 52.
    I think Duke's backcourt will be better at the start of the season, but I'll take UNC's at the end of the year and during the tournament. Neither team is a likely final four contender, IMO, and our (UNC's) lack of experience in the backcourt may end our season, but we've got more athleticism (esp. Strickland) and depth (6 guys who can play one or the other guard positions), both of which matter in the tournament. What will hurt us is 3 point shooting.

    Duke really can't afford an injury or foul trouble in the backcourt, and over the course of a season, both are fairly likely. I'd say you've got better shooting guards, but I'll take LD2 over Nolan Smith any day of the week. That's mostly based on future potential rather than past performance, however.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by eightyearoldsdude View Post
    I think Duke's backcourt will be better at the start of the season, but I'll take UNC's at the end of the year and during the tournament. Neither team is a likely final four contender, IMO, and our (UNC's) lack of experience in the backcourt may end our season, but we've got more athleticism (esp. Strickland) and depth (6 guys who can play one or the other guard positions), both of which matter in the tournament. What will hurt us is 3 point shooting.

    Duke really can't afford an injury or foul trouble in the backcourt, and over the course of a season, both are fairly likely. I'd say you've got better shooting guards, but I'll take LD2 over Nolan Smith any day of the week. That's mostly based on future potential rather than past performance, however.
    Them's fighting words Dude.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by airowe View Post
    Them's fighting words Dude.
    You know Dude, I myself dabbled in pacifism once.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by shoutingncu View Post
    Would you rather have a senior shooting guard turned point, who makes heady plays (few turnovers), but doesn't exactly dazzle with breaking down defenses, or an inexperienced point guard not asked to do much his freshman year, and admittedly, who didn't show very much as a result?
    Case by case basis. Senior Scheyer over sophomore Drew II 100 times out of 100.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ

    Scheyer>LDII

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Case by case basis. Senior Scheyer over sophomore Drew II 100 times out of 100.
    I'll one up you, Senior Scheyer over Senior LDII 100 times out of 100.

  11. #11
    Despite being a mostly Duke homer, I think LDII is pretty promising. Now, if UNC's chances at a deep tourney run depend heavily on a real breakout year by LDII, then, no, not such good odds. He's certainly their biggest ?-mark, followed, as per UNC posters here, by sketchy 3-pt production.

    As for the Better Blues, we're pretty much unanimous that NS is a, probably the, key to our fortunes. NS doesn't have quite as much to "prove" as LDII, but they both got big responsibilities in '09-'10. Good luck to LDII; very best of luck to NS. K to NS: "You gotta play; no meek crap."

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Mizzou, post-Quin
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Case by case basis. Senior Scheyer over sophomore Drew II 100 times out of 100.
    I don't think there's much question that Jon is a better all around player than Drew, and significantly so. I guess part of my question is would you rather have to rely on a senior Scheyer running point over an inexperienced sophomore.

    Looking at it slightly removed, to me, it's just a fun clash in fanbase optimism. Duke is excited about the coming season because of the talented experience they have in each player. Carolina is excited because the rebuilding effort leaves potential at each position. Duke fans don't seem too concerned with Carolina's youth or what they saw of their backcourt returnees, and Carolina fans (or at least this one) haven't been particularly impressed with Duke's experience the last few seasons.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Ugly colored glasses

    Quote Originally Posted by eightyearoldsdude View Post

    Duke really can't afford an injury or foul trouble in the backcourt, and over the course of a season, both are fairly likely. I'd say you've got better shooting guards, but I'll take LD2 over Nolan Smith any day of the week. That's mostly based on future potential rather than past performance, however.
    It's evident that you're looking at things through those light blue(ugly) glasses. "Fairly likely Duke will have an injury at guard". Wishful thinking me thinks? Foul trouble well that's another story. Probably will happen. But we've got the best coach on the bench to take care of that. As for LD2 over Nolan I think you will be surprised. Go Duke!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    It's evident that you're looking at things through those light blue(ugly) glasses. "Fairly likely Duke will have an injury at guard". Wishful thinking me thinks? Foul trouble well that's another story. Probably will happen. But we've got the best coach on the bench to take care of that. As for LD2 over Nolan I think you will be surprised. Go Duke!
    No, I don't wish injury on any player, no matter what the team. But injuries are nonetheless an unfortunate reality of what is an increasingly long and physical season. I'm not necessarily talking about season-enders, but it's not often that you see a team go completely unscathed.

  15. #15
    I love the optimism of pre-season! I'm pretty sure I actually saw someone say something along the lines of "Zeller was playing really well prior to his injury". He was injured in game #2! He had a good game against Penn and that was it. Taylor King poured in 20 points his 1st game against NC Central. A few weeks later he had 27 against Eastern Kentucky. How did his freshman year turn out?

    Larry Drew II showed very very little last year. In almost 10 MPG he averaged less than 2 points. Obviously he was generally the 5th offensive option on the floor but come on. How many guys go from scoring less than 2 PPG in their freshman years to meaningful contributions their next year? If I was UNC and I was relying on him to lead my team next year I would be scared. Be thankful you have Ginyard to step in when he can't get the job done next year. If I'm Roy and I'm offered Nolan Smith straight-up trade for Drew I'm pinching myself to check if I'm dreaming or not.

    Zeller and Drew could both have great years next year but to the level of optimism shown for their performances next year is a bit staggering. Drew particularly would be lucky to have a sophomore year as good as Nolan's sophomore year (which was looked at as a disappointment by pretty much everyone).

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Despite being a mostly Duke homer, I think LDII is pretty promising. Now, if UNC's chances at a deep tourney run depend heavily on a real breakout year by LDII, then, no, not such good odds. He's certainly their biggest ?-mark, followed, as per UNC posters here, by sketchy 3-pt production.

    As for the Better Blues, we're pretty much unanimous that NS is a, probably the, key to our fortunes. NS doesn't have quite as much to "prove" as LDII, but they both got big responsibilities in '09-'10. Good luck to LDII; very best of luck to NS. K to NS: "You gotta play; no meek crap."
    Most unbiased observers would take Nolan Smith over Drew II at beginning of the is year.

    Actually Drew II is almost certain to start for UNC as is Ginyard, Davis and Thompson.

    The Heels' biggest ? is who is the 5th starter. Some say Henson but court is still out on whether he can play SF on either end of half court vs. many teams, can vs. some.

    If not Henson, then either Graves who would address the long ball need or Ginyard moves to SF and a freshman albeit a very good one in Strickland/McDonald is paired with an inexperienced Larry Drew.

    My guess at beginning of year is Graves so the veteran Ginyard can help steady Drew II.

    It does not matter v. FIU, NC Central, Valpo, G-Web, Nevada, Presbyterian, Marshall, Rutgers, Albany and Charleston but UNC has some tough OOC fairly early vs Ohio State Nov 19; Calif or Syracuse Nov 20; Mich St Dec 1, UK Dec 5 and Texas Dec 19 and it will matter come ACC play starting with VA Tech, Clemson, GA Tech and Wake before UNC gets a breather vs. NC State.

  17. #17
    i think we would all take john wall over jon Scheyer

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by dukefanbrooklyn View Post
    i think we would all take john wall over jon Scheyer
    I wouldn't. Jon Scheyer is an experienced senior who has been a consistent performer at the highest level of college basketball over the past three seasons. John Wall is an unknown freshman who has never played a single college basketball game.
    Bob Green

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    The Heels' biggest ? is who is the 5th starter. If not Henson, then either Graves who would address the long ball need or Ginyard moves to SF and a freshman albeit a very good one in Strickland/McDonald is paired with an inexperienced Larry Drew.
    I've never been impressed with Graves so I expect Dexter Strickland or Leslie McDonald will start. If Graves starts, Carolina's backcourt is in big trouble.
    Bob Green

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    I think you have to look past a straight up who is better comparison of Scheyer versus Drew and look at what each has to do for their team to be successful. IMO Scheyer has to do alot more for Duke to be successful than Drew does for our cartoon colored brethren down the road. Scheyer is going to be one of the top three options on offense and will be logging alot of minutes on defense likley guarding quicker players (late in the season issues again). Drew only has to distribute the ball, not screw up, nail open threes, and play good defense. I'm thinking he will do okay managing that manageable plate.

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