Hypocrisy at its finest?

[allenmurray]

I may be in the minority but I DON'T CARE what happened before there was a specific system in place like there is now. The records are fine, the numbers are fine, the championships are fine. There is no taint in my mind. Do I want players doing steroids? No. But I also don't want swimmers wearing polyurethane swimsuits or tennis players using ultra light graphite rackets or wrestlers starving themselves to make weight. If it's within the rules (or there is no consequence for breaking said rules if they exist), though, athletes will take any edge they can get. Fine. Barry Bonds wouldn't have >700 home runs without steroids? Fine. Cy Young wouldn't have had >500 wins if there weren't spit balls and more than a dozen or so players could hit worth a lick back then. The game evolves.

This leaking of the names stuff is ridiculous, but MLB is in a tough spot here. They can't unilaterally release that list without MLBPA approval, which they won't get. The reason these names are leaking out is because the government got a hold of it, and someone in the chain of evidence from whoever generated the list for MLB up to the grand jury it was subpoenaed for is leaking them to the press. And that's either in breach of a confidentiality agreement or, worse, in violation of law with respect to docs sealed for a grand jury.

The name that will make me cry if it's on the list is Craig Biggio. I would not be surprised at all if Jeff Bagwell is on it. But Biggio would be devastating.

Just curious, but if you don't care . . . then why would it break your heart if Biggio is on the list?

[allenmurray]

Also, when this testing was done ('03), NOTHING WAS ILLEGAL in baseball! Testing was done to see if >5% used, to determine if a policy was appropriate. I can see many players stopping using starting in '04 once the line was drawn on what was allowed or not allowed.

It was illegal - it just wasn't against the rules of baseball. It is illegal to posess/use prescription medications without a doctor's order/supervision.

[YourLandlord]

It was illegal - it just wasn't against the rules of baseball. It is illegal to posess/use prescription medications without a doctor's order/supervision.

Which is why I said "in baseball."

Maybe some were being supervised by a doc.

There is crap you can buy at GNC that is now illegal in baseball but not in the US.

[mkirsh]

It was illegal - it just wasn't against the rules of baseball. It is illegal to posess/use prescription medications without a doctor's order/supervision.

Actually it was against the rules of baseball in 2003.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...1761/index.htm

The 1991 drug policy stated:

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription"

Now this was never enforced, so that argument is valid, and also only pertains to illegal or controlled substances. So things you can get over the counter at GNC stores which are against the current policy would have been permitted under this 1991 rule.

[DukieInKansas]

For those of us who love baseball, this drip-drip-drip of depressing steroid news is just tiresomely painful. I heard the following on NPR this morning and I defy anyone to listen to it without getting a little choked up. Bear in mind that as baby Tiger fans were were taught to fiercely resent the Orioles, too, but how could anyone hate Brooks Robinson. Enjoy and hope that baseball can get it's head out of it's keister.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...404645&sc=emaf

Thanks for the link. What a great story!

[A-Tex Devil]

Just curious, but if you don't care . . . then why would it break your heart if Biggio is on the list?

Good point, and I'll clarify. I don't care from a statistical/accomplishment perspective. Players did what they did within the punishable rules of the game to win. If steroids were taken when it wasn't punishable, it shouldn't play a part in whether that player is HOF worthy, in my opinion. But the BBWA is a ridiculous bunch of folks who are far less important than they think they are, so whatever...

Now -- I also said I didn't like the fact that players used steroids, and I'm certainly glad it is banned AND punished for now with a clear policy. Not for what it does to some Costas-ian utopia of untainted purity in the numbers and statistics of baseball, but for what it encourages youngsters to do, and what it could lead to (ex. A: Ken Caminiti).

So -- it doesn't taint statistical accomplishment, in my mind. It taints character. And character has never been a barrier of entry into the HOF (with the possible exception of Pete Rose - and I think that is more an inherited vendetta in the commissioner's office than anything else). Accomplishment on the field and a player's character are two different and, in my mind, mutually exclusive things.

As for Craig Biggio, he was a hero to many in Houston. I grew up playing catcher and he was my idol. He's also the first career Astro hall of famer (some may disagree, but no one with his numbers has failed to make it -- not even close). So to find out he did steroids would ruin his hall of fame chances (because no way the BBWA would let him in) and really be a bummer to the many, many Astros fans that followed him.

[rasputin]

For those of us who love baseball, this drip-drip-drip of depressing steroid news is just tiresomely painful. I heard the following on NPR this morning and I defy anyone to listen to it without getting a little choked up. Bear in mind that as baby Tiger fans were were taught to fiercely resent the Orioles, too, but how could anyone hate Brooks Robinson. Enjoy and hope that baseball can get it's head out of it's keister.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...404645&sc=emaf

In the 19th century, there were several deaf players (unfortunately, all of them were nicknamed "Dummy"), and one of them, "Dummy" Hoy, was the reason why umpires started using hand signals for safe or out, etc. The deaf players would teach their teammates sign language, and some teams used sign language as the basis for their signs for the steal, hit and run, and the like.

[Jim3k]

The 2003 testing was intended to determine if players were really using steroids. It was aimed at determining if there was a problem and, if so, to determine what steps needed to be taken to address it. It was a union-management thing.

In large part it arose due to Mark McGwire's use of androstenedione, which is, by itself, not a steroid. It is a precursor to testosterone. He simply thought the more testosterone, the better. It was over-the-counter and did not contain any controlled substance. What McGwire didn't understand was that some andro manufacturers were spiking the andro with steroids. As a result, he never thought there was anything improper -- he didn't even hide it. He had bottles in his locker.

McGwire was out of baseball by 2003, (he and sidekick Jose Canseco retired after the 2001 season) so he was never tested. Somewhere along the way, Canseco decided to take some actual steroids. Maybe McGwire did, too, but he's always denied it. I'm not sure what Sammy Sosa and Ken Griffey, Jr. have said about taking androstenedione in 2003 or before.

The real problem is that andro itself was regarded only as a health supplement, available in any health food store. If it was being spiked, it is quite likely that the user did not know it. Today androstenedione is still available in health food stores and on-line. You can look it up. I doubt it's spiked any more.

Ortiz began his major league career in 1997, so he overlapped McGwire and the astonishing 1998 home run race he had with Sosa and the others. It is highly likely that he was aware McGwire used andro.

I don't know about Ortiz, but if he was copying McGwire and still taking andro in 2003, it's conceivable that he thought it was OK. OTOH, if he was a BALCO customer back then, he knew exactly what he was doing -- much like Barry Bonds. As a result, without more evidence concerning Ortiz's 2003 use of androstenedione, I won't go so far as to call him a hypocrite or a liar.

[hughgs]

The real problem is that andro itself was regarded only as a health supplement, available in any health food store. If it was being spiked, it is quite likely that the user did not know it. Today androstenedione is still available in health food stores and on-line. You can look it up. I doubt it's spiked any more.

While they may not be spiked there are still quality control issues that can cause the inclusion of steroids in health supplements.

[Jim3k]

And, as suspected, Ortiz thinks in 2003 he unknowingly used vitamins and food supplements, much like McGwire.

Both the Red Sox and the Union are supporting his understanding.

Associated Press report.

Believe it or don't. Personally, I think he's probably being truthful.

[Angel]

A-Tex, great post. I'm in that minority with you. So is Bill James, which I'm sure is more consolation than my agreement. There has to be a breach of an actual, enforceable (and enforced) rule with punishment consequences for "cheating" to occur. Maybe everyone's using the word "cheaters" in some sort of grand karmic sense, but to me the word's being thrown out there way, way too casually these days.

In the technical sense, I agree with you. But, I think most people are not getting that technical and just see it as cheating.

Kind of like OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder, but most people think he is a murderer.

[jma4life]

Just because it's not specifically forbidden as a rule, doesn't mean it's not cheating or in the spirit of the rules. If someone comes up with a technology that isn't specifically forbidden, but which gives a player a huge advantage, we'd all agree it's cheating. So why wouldn't it be the same thing with chemical substances. Think flubber. Whether or not there was a rule against it doesn't mean it's not basically cheating.


That said, it is an interesting line to draw. Would it be cheating for players to improve their vision with eye surgery if the technology came out that enabled players to improve it to levels that would give them a huge advantage? What about taking pills that calm nerves?

These are tough questions that I don't have answers to. I still think it's ridiculous that no one cares about it with football and baseball players are villians, but I think we're getting to the point where even in baseball, it's not going to be as big of a deal. If the Papi revelation came out three years ago, it'd be getting even more attention.