Hypocrisy at its finest?

[Channing]

Didn't David Ortiz say that he thinks anyone who tests positive should automatically have to sit out an entire season? My mind could be playing tricks on me, but I don't think so.

Now it comes out Ortiz was on the positive test list from 03 (along with Manny) ... wonder if he will sit himself for an entire year?

[Tommac]

Let's just go ahead and disclose everyone on the list and get it all out at one time instead of leaking names every few months.

[SlimSlowSlider]

Didn't David Ortiz say that he thinks anyone who tests positive should automatically have to sit out an entire season? My mind could be playing tricks on me, but I don't think so.

Now it comes out Ortiz was on the positive test list from 03 (along with Manny) ... wonder if he will sit himself for an entire year?

Yeah, he said it in Sprint Training this year.

What goes around comes around for all those Boston fans who mercilessly dumped on A-Rod ...

2004 is tainted.

[rasputin]

Didn't David Ortiz say that he thinks anyone who tests positive should automatically have to sit out an entire season? My mind could be playing tricks on me, but I don't think so.

Now it comes out Ortiz was on the positive test list from 03 (along with Manny) ... wonder if he will sit himself for an entire year?

Well, in one sense, Ortiz did sit out the first half of this season.

[bluebear]

2004 is tainted.

that's just silly..I bet there is a player on every team winning the world series over the past 10 years who is either on the list or a ped user...

[YourLandlord]

Before we rush to judgement about a guy who has always been anti-roids and invited self-testing...

- If he knew he tested positive, and he knew why, and it was an easily identifiable substance (e.g. not the reaction from some weird who knows what), and he did not change his behavior, then he is the ultimate hypocrite and liar and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. him because that to me is worse than the steroid thing.

- If he knew he tested positive, and he knew why, it was easily identifiable, and he stopped, then he is a liar for today's actions and also a hypocrite for the sermonizing, but at least clean since testing

- If he knew he tested positive, and he knew why, and it was for something he thought was innocuous, and he stopped, then he is a liar today but IMO his previous statements are consistent and he is not a hypocrite.

- If he knew he tested postive, but didn't know why, and doesn't know if he changed his behavior or not, he is stupid and should have kept his mouth shut

- If he did not know he tested positive, had no indication he was doing anything wrong, changed some behavior based on increased education from MLB (didn't that happen in 04/05), and is just now finding out that the behavior which he changed caused him to be positive in 2003, then he is neither liar, hypocrite, nor cheat, even if his name is on that list.

the other B&W of the issue is that MLB did not even know what they wanted or should ban.

Also, on the expanded list, if he knew he tested positive, knew he was clean after changing behavior, and the MLBPA advised him to act completely clean because the results would never leak, then well I just don't know where to start.


You might say, "Wouldn't he still be a hypocrite due to his "people who test positive should be banned a year"?

Not if his thing was that the 03 test was intended to be confidential and educational. "Hey David, stop drinking that crap from your buddy in Punta Cana it is technically a banned substance" "OK"

[JasonEvans]

that's just silly..I bet there is a player on every team winning the world series over the past 10 years who is either on the list or a ped user...

Yeah, but Manny and Papi were the core of that team's offense. Everything was built around their production in the middle of the lineup.

Still, it is starting to look like there are no untainted stars. Albert Pujols better not be on the 2003 list!! Junior better not be on it!!

I am betting we will get the whole list at some point soon. I dunno why baseball would want to continue to see this slow leak of one name after another.

As for my local club, I won't be at all surprised to learn that Andrew Jones is on the list, but I would bet a ton of money that Chipper Jones is not on it.

--Jason "I really wonder about the pitchers-- would anyone be really shocked if Smoltz was on the list?" Evans

[Deslok]

Let me start with the caveat that I am a Red Sox fan, in case any of you think that may bias my thoughts.

But really, is anyone actually surprised at this? I kind of took it for granted that 3 names were either on that list, or just through random luck managed to not be on it but were doing it anyway, Ramirez, Ortiz, and Nixon. Now, I don't recall the words Ortiz has used when questioned about his own specific use of them, but I thought his words following the changes that took place in baseball were, and still are completely appropriate. Now that baseball has testing in place and a specific ban on such drugs, if you catch someone doing them, toss them out of baseball for a year. Ortiz has not been caught(and maybe its the Red Sox fan in me, or its his major slump to start the year, but I don't think he's doing them anymore) since then. Even then I took him as a guy who did what hundreds of others did, and when baseball got egg all over its face as a result, decided he needed to clean up his act, and baseball needed to clean up its act, did so himself, and encouraged the sport to go down the path of doing so.

Any thought of the championships being tainted is ludicrious. Unless you just want to strike the 1990-2005 years from the record books completely and pretend they never happened. Players on every single team did drugs. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there wasn't a team that didn't have at least 5 players on it doing them(as a side note, if I were other posters on this thread, I wouldn't bet large amounts of money on any player not having done them... I don't want to believe certain players did, but with the increasingly obvious prevalence of PEDs in the sport, I wouldn't be 100% sure of anyone in a culture where it seemed the norm rather than the exception). There is no room for any team(or any fan of a team) to act holier than thou.

I wish they'd just release the list(with everyone appropriate's permission), and throw the book at anyone involved in leaking what was supposed to be a confidential medical record. But I'm not holding my breath.

[jma4life]

If I knew I was on the list, I'd come clean now. Do it on your terms while you can, because it's going to come out anyway.

[JasonEvans]

If I knew I was on the list, I'd come clean now. Do it on your terms while you can, because it's going to come out anyway.

Someone needs to do this. Be a hero!!!

--Jason "would fans and the media treat that player like a hero for being honest?" Evans

[blazindw]

Let me start with the caveat that I am a Red Sox fan, in case any of you think that may bias my thoughts.

But really, is anyone actually surprised at this? I kind of took it for granted that 3 names were either on that list, or just through random luck managed to not be on it but were doing it anyway, Ramirez, Ortiz, and Nixon. Now, I don't recall the words Ortiz has used when questioned about his own specific use of them, but I thought his words following the changes that took place in baseball were, and still are completely appropriate. Now that baseball has testing in place and a specific ban on such drugs, if you catch someone doing them, toss them out of baseball for a year. Ortiz has not been caught(and maybe its the Red Sox fan in me, or its his major slump to start the year, but I don't think he's doing them anymore) since then. Even then I took him as a guy who did what hundreds of others did, and when baseball got egg all over its face as a result, decided he needed to clean up his act, and baseball needed to clean up its act, did so himself, and encouraged the sport to go down the path of doing so.

Red Sox fans (not saying you did, but scores of them did) vilified A-Rod when his name leaked. No one back then said anything about "Oh, he cleaned up his act back then, it's all good now." They label him a cheat. Those same fans should say the same thing about Ortiz and Manny, especially seeing that Manny hasn't learned his lesson and already has sat out a 50-gamer this year.

In my mind, I think MLB should tell the players that the list will be released on September 1st. If they want to come forward before then and admit they're on the list, they can do so. Otherwise, it will be released to the public. These guys that were individually outed definitely have a case against someone for leaking their name to the press.

[SlimSlowSlider]

To those who say it is "ridiculous" that there is a taint, I disagree. As do a lot of other people, including such Boston Globe sportswriters like Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy.

When the Red Sox won in 2004, it was an amazing time to be in Boston. That whole Yankees series was surreal to begin with; it was almost more surreal after the games, bleary-eyed commuters talking about the games with strangers. There was a collective euphoria. It was intoxicating. (I actually am a White Sox fan, and generally do not like the Red Sox, but even I enjoyed the vibe of the City.)

So, even if all of baseball should have an asterisk during this time period, in my mind it still takes something away. This is what Shaughnessy wrote today (and I agree with him):

"As for Manny, what is left to say? When he got caught this year, Sox fans wanted to believe he started cheating after he left Boston. Now his entire career is flushed down the toilet. Along with Ortiz.

It’s horrible.

No more innocence.

No more fairy tales.

The 2004 Red Sox really were Idiots. Just like the Yankees and everybody else.

Our cheaters were better than their cheaters.

Yahoo."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...rom_roid_rage/

[YourLandlord]

Someone needs to do this. Be a hero!!!

--Jason "would fans and the media treat that player like a hero for being honest?" Evans

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436

[bluebear]

To those who say it is "ridiculous" that there is a taint, I disagree. As do a lot of other people, including such Boston Globe sportswriters like Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy.

When the Red Sox won in 2004, it was an amazing time to be in Boston. That whole Yankees series was surreal to begin with; it was almost more surreal after the games, bleary-eyed commuters talking about the games with strangers. There was a collective euphoria. It was intoxicating. (I actually am a White Sox fan, and generally do not like the Red Sox, but even I enjoyed the vibe of the City.)

So, even if all of baseball should have an asterisk during this time period, in my mind it still takes something away. This is what Shaughnessy wrote today (and I agree with him):

"As for Manny, what is left to say? When he got caught this year, Sox fans wanted to believe he started cheating after he left Boston. Now his entire career is flushed down the toilet. Along with Ortiz.

It’s horrible.

No more innocence.

No more fairy tales.

The 2004 Red Sox really were Idiots. Just like the Yankees and everybody else.

Our cheaters were better than their cheaters.

Yahoo."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...rom_roid_rage/

Your quote from shaughnessy is my exact point though...it's not tainted if everyone else is doing it..if everyone else is an idiot as well...are you going to pull out 2 decades of baseball and nullify the results because steriod users were on the teams. I'm a sox fan and I do not defend Ortiz. I am very disappointed in him but it doesn't change how I feel about the team overall. It's not a shock to me that he used..it would not be a shock to find out that Nixon, Nomar, Damon, etc used as well. At this point, it also wouldn't shock me to find out that Jeter, Pujols or any other clean great used as well. It has no impact on my view of the world series as the sox were competing against teams that also had players x,y,z also using PEDs...

[YourLandlord]

Also, when this testing was done ('03), NOTHING WAS ILLEGAL in baseball! Testing was done to see if >5% used, to determine if a policy was appropriate. I can see many players stopping using starting in '04 once the line was drawn on what was allowed or not allowed.

[SlimSlowSlider]

Maybe you are right that everyone was doing it and there is no relative "taint." I think, however, that the notion (as Shaughnessy puts it) "our cheaters beat your cheaters" is a taint. It cheapens 2004, in my mind. But it is a matter of opinion, and I can see where you are coming from.

[YourLandlord]

This thread on a prominent red sox message board is worth a read -- provides a good, fairly objective, look at the issue.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=47729

Gehrig38, a poster there, is Curt Schilling, fyi.

[A-Tex Devil]

I may be in the minority but I DON'T CARE what happened before there was a specific system in place like there is now. The records are fine, the numbers are fine, the championships are fine. There is no taint in my mind. Do I want players doing steroids? No. But I also don't want swimmers wearing polyurethane swimsuits or tennis players using ultra light graphite rackets or wrestlers starving themselves to make weight. If it's within the rules (or there is no consequence for breaking said rules if they exist), though, athletes will take any edge they can get. Fine. Barry Bonds wouldn't have >700 home runs without steroids? Fine. Cy Young wouldn't have had >500 wins if there weren't spit balls and more than a dozen or so players could hit worth a lick back then. The game evolves.

This leaking of the names stuff is ridiculous, but MLB is in a tough spot here. They can't unilaterally release that list without MLBPA approval, which they won't get. The reason these names are leaking out is because the government got a hold of it, and someone in the chain of evidence from whoever generated the list for MLB up to the grand jury it was subpoenaed for is leaking them to the press. And that's either in breach of a confidentiality agreement or, worse, in violation of law with respect to docs sealed for a grand jury.

The name that will make me cry if it's on the list is Craig Biggio. I would not be surprised at all if Jeff Bagwell is on it. But Biggio would be devastating.

[weezie]

For those of us who love baseball, this drip-drip-drip of depressing steroid news is just tiresomely painful. I heard the following on NPR this morning and I defy anyone to listen to it without getting a little choked up. Bear in mind that as baby Tiger fans were were taught to fiercely resent the Orioles, too, but how could anyone hate Brooks Robinson. Enjoy and hope that baseball can get it's head out of it's keister.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...404645&sc=emaf

[Mal]

A-Tex, great post. I'm in that minority with you. So is Bill James, which I'm sure is more consolation than my agreement. There has to be a breach of an actual, enforceable (and enforced) rule with punishment consequences for "cheating" to occur. Maybe everyone's using the word "cheaters" in some sort of grand karmic sense, but to me the word's being thrown out there way, way too casually these days.