Austin Rivers - where there is smoke, there is fire

[Lord Ash]

I believe Doc was trying to win a NBA Championship at the time AR visited Durham, wasn't he? Now that he appears to be more involved, UNC is more in the picture. Is this because he wants AR to look under every rock before making a decision? Or, does Doc see the value of having the UNC stamp of approval when entering the NBA? The next few months should be exciting! And, because of the recruitment of HB, everyone is crawling out of their skin.

Uhmmm... that has been more a curse than a stamp of approval over the last 15 or so years...

[Newton_14]

I believe Doc was trying to win a NBA Championship at the time AR visited Durham, wasn't he? Now that he appears to be more involved, UNC is more in the picture. Is this because he wants AR to look under every rock before making a decision? Or, does Doc see the value of having the UNC stamp of approval when entering the NBA? The next few months should be exciting! And, because of the recruitment of HB, everyone is crawling out of their skin.

So Kong, an honest question here. If Doc were your everyday John Doe with Austin as a son, I could see where dad may be a longtime fan of one of the big name schools and would likely want to see his son attend the school dad has been rooting for all of his life. That makes sense.

However, Doc Rivers is a former college and NBA player, and is now a NBA Title winning coach who knows all of the ins and outs of college hoops and surely knows the difference between the truly great college programs vs the average vs. the poor.

That said, Doc Rivers likely knows in great depth, that all 3 of the programs Austin is now looking at (Duke, Kansas, Unc) are all great programs who have each won a National Title in the last 3 years and who regularly send players to the NBA.

So the question is, why would a father like Doc, care one way or the other, which one of the 3 that Austin chooses?

I look at this the totally opposite way than some in that I feel Doc respects his son enough that he would not try to push him in one direction or the other with the 3 finalists. I think he would simply say: "I am pleased with your final 3, well done son, now choose the one that feels right to you and I am with you 100%".

Pushing Austin to either of the 3 would be selfish on Doc's part and he just does not strike me as that type of man.

[DevilHorns]

Or, does Doc see the value of having the UNC stamp of approval when entering the NBA?

I can only insinuate that you think Doc believes Duke doesn't have that same "stamp of approval" (whatever that really means?). Here's a little list of Duke players vs UNC players in the league right now. I'll let your brain rattle that one for a while.

DUKE PLAYERS

Corey Maggette
Carlos Boozer
Luol Deng
Elton Brand
Chris Duhon
Grant Hill
Shane Battier
JJ Redick
Dahntay Jones
Gerald Henderson
Shelden Williams
Josh McRoberts
Mike Dunleavy
Shavlik Randolph

UNC PLAYERS

Antawn Jamison
Vince Carter
Marvin Williams
Raymond Felton
Brandan Wright
Brendan Haywood
Jawad Williams
Tyler Hansbrough
Danny Green
Ty Lawson
Wayne Ellington
Ed Davis

[jipops]

So Kong, an honest question here. If Doc were your everyday John Doe with Austin as a son, I could see where dad may be a longtime fan of one of the big name schools and would likely want to see his son attend the school dad has been rooting for all of his life. That makes sense.

However, Doc Rivers is a former college and NBA player, and is now a NBA Title winning coach who knows all of the ins and outs of college hoops and surely knows the difference between the truly great college programs vs the average vs. the poor.

That said, Doc Rivers likely knows in great depth, that all 3 of the programs Austin is now looking at (Duke, Kansas, Unc) are all great programs who have each won a National Title in the last 3 years and who regularly send players to the NBA.

So the question is, why would a father like Doc, care one way or the other, which one of the 3 that Austin chooses?

I look at this the totally opposite way than some in that I feel Doc respects his son enough that he would not try to push him in one direction or the other with the 3 finalists. I think he would simply say: "I am pleased with your final 3, well done son, now choose the one that feels right to you and I am with you 100%".

Pushing Austin to either of the 3 would be selfish on Doc's part and he just does not strike me as that type of man.

I have to concur with Boozer here. The tarheel hopes appear to hinge on a perception of what Doc wants. Practically speaking, what would Doc have in favor or against any of the 3? Does Doc feel it's important for Austin to be allowed to dance before games? K has the in-home visit with Austin tomorrow. More speculation to evolve I'm sure...

[kong123]

you can joke around all you want. you can say you miss when the rivalry was good, which sounds funny but in reality is far from true.

The truth is, UNC is the most popular school in the country. Look at the merch sales over the last few years. Perhaps the reason we have so few pros in NBA is due to the Guthridge years? When it comes to All-Star games and NBA Championships, Duke falls way behind UNC. When it comes to superstar players, Duke has had only 1, Grant Hill. Unfortunately, he had health problems that hurt his chances of being an all-time great pro. UNC has two well-respected coaches in the NBA. UNC players have had more endorsements. Sure, MJ makes up quite a bit of that, but Stackhouse and VC had a pretty good run in their career. I think Lawson will one day be an all-star.

It was also mentioned that UNC, as a basketball family, is much larger and much more involved than Duke's alums. You always hear of the long list of Pro's that come back each summer to play in the Smith Center. I think those are big differences. And, since you state that Doc is a vet and knows the NBA... well, he knows these things. In the end, he will let his son choose where he wants to go school. What I find so interesting is how open this recruitment seems to be. Just a few weeks ago, I didn't care or want AR to go to UNC. Partially, because I thought he was a Duke lock. Ultimately, I think he will create issues for the players already on the UNC roster. Duke could also be recruiting over a player or two? But, if the coach wants him and the coach can get him, I will worry about all of those things later!

[DevilHorns]

It was also mentioned that UNC, as a basketball family, is much larger and much more involved than Duke's alums. You always hear of the long list of Pro's that come back each summer to play in the Smith Center. I think those are big differences.

This is a flat-out ignorant statement. Duke has many alumni that stay continuously involved with the program. For example, many alumni act as coaches during Coach K's Basketball camp. Many alumni, such as Grant Hill and Christian Laettner, endow scholarships for future basketball players. Where did Jason Williams go to rehab after his motorcycle accident? Where does JJ Redick practice during the off-season? Don't remember the story about Duke alumni taking on the 2010 team prior to the season? Go to dukeblueplanet.com and just surf around for a while. You'll see that Duke's family is as strong as (or perhaps stronger) than UNC's. Look on our bench at the staff. All rooted in the program. Do you want me to collect all the quotations from this past year referencing our championship run? Boozer, Dunleavy, Battier, Jones, the list goes on and on. Once a devil always a devil.

Sometimes you have to take off the tinted glasses. UNC has a great storied basketball program. But they are definitely not alone in that description. And there are no Duke alumni that I feel disgrace the program. You guys have the unwanted stepchildren that IMHO taint your "pristine" program: Rasheed Wallace, Rashad McCants, and Vince Carter to name a few.

[kong123]

Rashaad McCants is a disappointment because he couldn't control his personality. Rasheed, he is a well respected basketball player who got a lot of T's. I do not think he is a disgrace to the University. And VC? One of the most popular basketball player of the past 20 years is a disgrace? Take off your glasses and look again.

[Lord Ash]

attack the post, not the poster.

is there any area in particular that I am wrong?

Most of them. Wrong about Duke having only 1 superstar player, wrong about some UNC players from 25 years ago making a bit of difference with where a high school kid will play ball, wrong about not having many NBA players over the last 20 years because of a coach who was around for about three years, wrong about UNC being any more of a "family" than Duke, wrong about Doc Rivers "knowing" any of the ridiculous things you said, wrong that you didn't want Austin Rivers at UNC "partially" because he seemed like a Duke lean, wrong about Duke recruiting over any players...

Truly a typical "Worst kind of Carolina post."

[Stray Gator]

... The truth is, UNC is the most popular school in the country. Look at the merch sales over the last few years.

Actually, according to the Collegiate Licensing Company, the University of North Carolina ranked 6th in merchandise sales for the 2007-08 fiscal year, the 2008-09 fiscal year, and the first three quarters of 2010:

(1.) The University of Texas at Austin
(2.) University of Florida
(3.) University of Georgia
(4.) Louisiana State University
(5.) The University of Alabama
(6.) University of North Carolina

http://www.clc.com/clcweb/publishing.../rankings.html

[DevilHorns]

Rashaad McCants is a disappointment because he couldn't control his personality. Rasheed, he is a well respected basketball player who got a lot of T's. I do not think he is a disgrace to the University. And VC? One of the most popular basketball player of the past 20 years is a disgrace? Take off your glasses and look again.

Rasheed got a lot of T's? How about the NBA's all time leader in technical fouls. Now he did have some good stats in his prime. The question for you is, are you proud of how he represented himself as a Tar Heel in the league? If its only stats that you care about, then uh, sure, he's a great alum.

And regarding VC... thats where I guess Duke and UNC fans differ. I'm not saying VC wasn't popular. I'm not saying he wasn't super-talented, and in his prime, a dominant force in the league stacking up that stats for a mediocre team. What I am saying is that he has a reputation for quitting on his team in the NBA. Ask Raptors fans. I am claiming that he does taint the perception of players UNC produces.

[chrisheery]

How's Sean May holding up?

Aside from Lawson, who has an outside shot at being an all-star, name one other UNC player who has a shot at being an all-star in the next 3 years. There are none. This is a myth. UNC gets by on Jordan and Worthy. Vince is the definition of letting talent go to waste, ask any NBA fan who is not a Carolina fan. That is more of a detriment to UNC than a positive. Sheed is embarrassing by any account. Stackhouse was too selfish until he got old and started playing as a team player, but he was never ever great. If anything the professional turnout has taken a downturn under Roy. Those are all facts.

As to Austin Rivers, who cares what we or UNC fans think. None of our conjecture will determine the outcome. Letting a troll get under your skin is a waste of time. Why not just check back in a month is this is really worrying you? You'll be better off.

[kong123]

1985 Buzz Peterson 7th 8 147 Cleveland Cavaliers
1986 Brad Daugherty 1st 1 1 Cleveland Cavaliers
1986 Warren Martin 4th 3 73 Cleveland Cavaliers
1986 Steve Hale 4th 11 81 New Jersey Nets
1987 Kenny Smith 1st 6 6 Sacramento Kings
1987 Joe Wolf 1st 13 13 Los Angeles Clippers
1987 Dave Popson 4th 19 88 Detroit Pistons
1987 Curtis Hunter 7th 18 156 Denver Nuggetts
1989 J.R. Reid 1st 5 5 Charlotte Hornets
1991 Rick Fox 1st 24 24 Boston Celtics
1991 Pete Chilcutt 1st 27 27 Sacramento Kings
1992 Hubert Davis 1st 20 20 New York Knicks
1993 George Lynch 1st 12 12 Los Angeles Lakers
1994 Eric Montross 1st 9 9 Boston Celtics
1995 Jerry Stackhouse 1st 3 3 Philadelphia 76ers
1995 Rasheed Wallace 1st 4 4 Washington Bullets
1996 Jeff McInnis 2nd 8 37 Denver Nuggetts
1997 Serge Zwikker 2nd 1 29 Houston Rockets
1998 Antawn Jamison 1st 4 4 Toronto Raptors
1998 Vince Carter 1st 5 5 Golden State Warriors
1998 Shammond Williams 2nd 5 34 Chicago Bulls
2001 Brendan Haywood 1st 20 20 Cleveland Cavaliers
2001 Joseph Forte 1st 21 21 Boston Celtics
2005 Marvin Williams 1st 2 2 Atlanta Hawks
2005 Raymond Felton 1st 5 5 Charlotte Bobcats
2005 Sean May 1st 13 13 Charlotte Bobcats
2005 Rashad McCants 1st 14 14 Minnesota Timberwolves
2006 David Noel 2nd 9 39 Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright 1st 8 8 Charlotte Bobcats
2007 Reyshawn Terry 2nd 14 44 Orlando Magic
2009 Tyler Hansbrough 1st 13 13 Indiana Pacers
2009 Ty Lawson 1st 18 18 Minnesota Timberwolves
2009 Wayne Ellington 1st 28 28 Minnesota Timberwolves
2009 Danny Green 2nd 16 46 Cleveland Cavaliers
2010 Ed Davis 1st 13 13 Toronto Raptors

[MulletMan]

Children,

(And yes, I am using that term because of the way you're behaving...)

Please refrain from pointless posts, personal attacks, baiting and general posting of gibberish and nonsense. If you'd like to have a rational discussion, fine. However, please keep it to the topic at hand (for this particular thread, that would be Austin Rivers' recruitment, by the way) or I'll come back and delete some more posts. Next time I might give out some fun little infractions... haven't done that in a while, but there's always time to change.

Thanks. Carry on.

-Mullet

[kong123]

Actually, according to the Collegiate Licensing Company, the University of North Carolina ranked 6th in merchandise sales for the 2007-08 fiscal year, the 2008-09 fiscal year, and the first three quarters of 2010:

(1.) The University of Texas at Austin
(2.) University of Florida
(3.) University of Georgia
(4.) Louisiana State University
(5.) The University of Alabama
(6.) University of North Carolina

http://www.clc.com/clcweb/publishing.../rankings.html

i should have specified men's basketball. its obvious that all of those schools are football schools.

[JasonEvans]

Ya'll should all be glad that Mullet got to this thread before I did or there would be multiple infractions handed out. You all have been warned and a ton of posts have been deleted. Keep it on topic. Stop sniping at each other. This applies to both UNC and Duke fans. No one who has posted in this thread lately looks all that good (aside from Stray, who brought facts to the table to refute an ill-informed post).

--Jason "the Mods are about to bring the heat" Evans

[DevilHorns]

And to now break the ice in what has become an awkward state of affairs, some eye candy!:

[moonpie23]

i should have specified men's basketball. its obvious that all of those schools are football schools.

the pedals do go backwards, don't they kong?


i am lifting some nifty stat work from NCCUknow @ The Devil's den so i will LINK first,

Kong, in a head to head competition, k dominates roy in just about every statistic and almost all of them with regard to nba talent.

Please point out what Doc should look at to NOT see K as head and shoulders over Roy in NBA draft development ....throw in Olympic Gold, TWICE as many National Titles, and now a World Championship and it's not even close...

Roy Williams

(1990) #34 Kevin Pritchard

(1991) #26 Mark Randall

(1993) #16 Rex Walters

(1993) #42 Adonis Jordan

(1994) #38 Darrin Hancock

(1995) #28 Greg Ostertag

(1997) #19 Scott Pollard

(1997) #27 Jacque Vaughn

(1998) #3 Raef LaFrentz

(1998) #10 Paul Pierce

(1999) #45 Ryan Robertson

(2001) #43 Eric Chenowith
(2003) #4 Drew Gooden

(2003) #7 Kirk Hinrich

(2003) #12 Nick Collison

(2005) #2 Marvin Williams

(2005) #5 Raymond Felton

(2005) #13 Sean May

(2005) #14 Rashad McCants

(2006) #39 David Noel

(2007) #8 Brandan Wright

(2007) #44 Reyshawn Terry

(2009) #13 Tyler Hansbrough

(2009) #18 Ty Lawson

(2009) #28 Wayne Ellington

(2009) #46 Danny Green

(2010) #13 Ed Davis


Mike Krzyzewski

(1986) #10 Johnny Dawkins

(1986) #18 Mark Alarie

(1986) #58 David Henderson

(1989) #2 Danny Ferry 

(1990) #25 Alaa Abdelnaby

(1990) #49 Phil Henderson 

(1992) #3 Christian Laettner

(1992) #48 Brian Davis 

(1993) #7 Bobby Hurley

(1993) #39 Thomas Hill 

(1994) #3 Grant Hill

(1994) #39 Antonio Lang 

(1995) #12 Cherokee Parks

(1995) #41 Eric Meek

(1998) #20 Roshown Mcleod

(1999) #1 Elton Brand

(1999) #11 Trajan Langdon

(1999) #13 Corey Maggette

(1999) #14 William Avery

(2000) #41 Chris Carrawell 

(2001) #6 Shane Battier

(2002) #2 Jay Williams

(2002) #3 Mike Dunleavy Jr.

(2002) #35 Carlos Boozer 

(2003) #20 Dahntay Jones

(2004) #7 Luol Deng

(2004) #39 Chris Duhon 

(2005) #32 Daniel Ewing

(2006) #5 Shelden Williams

(2006) #11 JJ Redick 

(2007) #37 Josh McRoberts 

(2009) #12 Gerald Henderson 



Players Drafted Total
Roy- 27

K- 32



Players Drafted in the 1st Round
Roy- 19

K- 21



Players Drafted in the Top 15
Roy- 11
K- 17 



Players Drafted in the Top 5
Roy-4

K-7 



Players Drafted #1 Overall
Roy-0

K-1 



--If adjusted to only include players drafted since Roy started his head coaching career, you get:

Players Drafted Total
Roy- 27

K- 29



Players Drafted in the 1st Round
Roy- 19

K- 19



Players Drafted in the Top 15
Roy- 11
K- 16 



Players Drafted in the Top 5
Roy-4

K-7 



Players Drafted #1 Overall
Roy-0

K-1

Now, here are some bonus production numbers. I took the ppg, apg, and rpg for every draft pick's career and compared them:

K
7.19 PPG
3.03 RPG
1.68 APG

Roy
6.80 PPG
2.94 RPG
1.52 APG

Note: Players who were drafted but did not see NBA action got 0's for each category. Ed Davis was not included in the averages since he has yet to get an opportunity to see NBA action.

Well, there you have it. Extrapolate what you will...interpret it as you must... twist it as you like, but those are the facts.
Last edited 9/16/2010 7:40 PM by NCCUknow

[darthur]

And VC? One of the most popular basketball player of the past 20 years is a disgrace? Take off your glasses and look again.

As a Toronto fan, I can agree that VC is/was a great player, but I also wouldn't be proud to be associated with him.

He's not the only player to have burned bridges in the league (and yes, I know a Duke player is also guilty of this), but he's one of the worst offenders.

[flyingdutchdevil]

And to now break the ice in what has become an awkward state of affairs, some eye candy!:

I have that shirt! By far the best National Championship shirt: simple, clean, and vintage looking. Big fan.

[MarkD83]

the pedals do go backwards, don't they kong?


i am lifting some nifty stat work from NCCUknow @ The Devil's den so i will LINK first,

Kong, in a head to head competition, k dominates roy in just about every statistic and almost all of them with regard to nba talent.

Please point out what Doc should look at to NOT see K as head and shoulders over Roy in NBA draft development ....throw in Olympic Gold, TWICE as many National Titles, and now a World Championship and it's not even close...

I won't quote the whole post but at the very least these stats show that if a program recruits and signs great players they will get to the league. Both UNC and Duke recruit and sign great players and these players get to the league.

The question is "are the coaches at these schools flexible enough to let great players be great?". The benefit of Coach K coaching the Olympic and World Champoinship teams is that he has demonstrated this ability. In addition, Coach K has demonstrated the ability to change a team's style of play to suit its talent as evidenced by the 2010 NCAA Championship and the different style of play we expect to see this year. So for Coach K he will let great players be great.

I will not answer this for Coach Williams but will be interested to see how this year plays out without an elite point guard on the UNC team.