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  1. #1

    Coach K not the best coach?

    I could see him taking a second to somebody - Donovan who is hot. But 4th? Sorta bogus to me - how many coaches have both won a title and made it to the Final 4 a second time since 2000 - not to mention the ACC Championships:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Philly

    What a joke

    Quote Originally Posted by vango View Post
    I could see him taking a second to somebody - Donovan who is hot. But 4th? Sorta bogus to me - how many coaches have both won a title and made it to the Final 4 a second time since 2000 - not to mention the ACC Championships:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html
    Laughable. He is basically a consensus top 3 coach of ALL TIME (Wooden, The Deaner, K) And certainly the only one along with Dean to be compared to Wooden. People hold the fact that he went to 7 final fours in 9 years (86-94) against him now since he only goes to one every couple of years.

    Ridiculous.

  3. #3
    In all honesty, if you look at the last 2 years (which are obivously the most important given Donovans rank of # 1) the only person that I think is wrongly placed anywhere in the top 5 is calhoun. I dont care how many guys you lost to the draft. A good coach doesn't miss the dance. Coach k should be 3 here at WORST

  4. #4
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    Los Angeles

    Question

    I agree that Coach K is one of the best all-time. Probably only second to John Wooden. BUT -- he has not done his best coaching job during the past 5 years. Let's face it. He's made some really stupid/outrageous choices. So....even when my blood drains Duke blue, I have to be honest with myself and question some of his decisions during this time.

    Is it time for him to pass the mantle? Wonder what the rest of Duke Nation thinks?

  5. #5
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    Mar 2007
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    Cambridge, MA
    You guys are being way too sensitive. The article pretty clearly says that recent success is weighted very heavily, and K did not do a very good coaching job this year.

    And, no, it isn't time for him to "pass the mantle." That's a big overreaction. He's still one of the best coaches overall. We just had a down year. Chill out.
    Last edited by Wander; 04-18-2007 at 03:10 PM.

  6. #6
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    Feb 2007
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    Durham

    Mandel wets the bed on this one

    I saw this article last week and wrote it off within 2 minutes. When I (so predictably) saw Donovan #1, I knew not to take this seriously at all. And I agree with Skitzle, Krzyzewski and Calhoun were in substantially similar situations this year and Uconn did MUCH worse than Duke. Didn't hear ESPN or CNNSI let out a peep, either.

    They say Coach K is 4th because of his recent underachievements, but I think we can all identify the most notorious tourney underachiever on the list. They say we don't live up to #1 seed status enough lately, but the reason we were a #1 seed so often is because we took 7 out of 8 ACC Tourney titles, another feat no other coach on that list has done. And I don't care how much talent Duke gets, 9 straight Sweet 16s can't be looked at as underachieving. Being given a 1 seed doesn't guarantee anything; ask Roy about that...
    Last edited by Classof06; 04-18-2007 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #7

    Hard to believe what "fans" say

    I really can't believe that any Duke fan would even raise the question as to whether it is time for Coach K to "pass the mantle."

    Yes, it is disappointing that JJ, Shelden and friends only made one Final 4 and this year was very disheartening. But Duke has hardly suffered a fall from the status as one of the elite programs in the nation because of the lack of recent NCAA tournament success.

    If Duke has 2 or 3 more consecutive years like this, maybe there will be cause for concern. But it's not even close to time to worry about this program being in disarray.

    Get a grip and don't pay heed to stupid SI.

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
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    Dillon, Colorado
    K is where Dean was in 1992 (actually, Dean was a bit better off). Whether he closes out his career with one last push or we start aiming for the Sweet 16 just to have the opportunity to faceplant there remains to be seen.

    I have a strong suspicion we'll end up with the latter.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Toledo
    And certainly the only one along with Dean to be compared to Wooden.
    I'd add the General in there as well, but I agree. Coach K is about as legendary a coach as one can ever become. He's THE premier coaching talent in the country. Period. I read SI religiously but that list is bogus.
    "Duke is a once in a lifetime opportunity and something you don't pass up on." -Amile Jefferson

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dukemomLA View Post
    I agree that Coach K is one of the best all-time. Probably only second to John Wooden. BUT -- he has not done his best coaching job during the past 5 years. Let's face it. He's made some really stupid/outrageous choices.
    Just curious, what are these "stupid/outrageous choices" that you think Coach K has made?

    Granted, he's certainly made mistakes. But I can't think of anything that I'd classify as "stupid".

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles

    stupid choices

    Quote Originally Posted by gvtucker View Post
    Just curious, what are these "stupid/outrageous choices" that you think Coach K has made?

    Granted, he's certainly made mistakes. But I can't think of anything that I'd classify as "stupid".
    Well, I think he hasn't utilized his players properly. He continues to stick to his 6-7 man rotation when he has 8-10 experienced, viable players sitting on the bench. He doesn't use the backdoor cut, even though he has the players to excel with that. He hates the 2-3 zone, even though that can work miracles with the players he's had in the last few years.

    He often "sticks with the game plan" even when it's NOT WORKING.

    Okay, I sound like a K basher. I'm not. I LOVE Coach K. I idolize K. I'm just trying to be realistic about my concerns from 2002-2007. GO DUKE. GTHCGHT

  12. #12
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    Mar 2007
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    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.

    Coach K's flexibility

    I also think that Coach K's inflexibility sometimes gets in his way of being the best X's and O's guy. I'm in no way saying that I know anywhere close to what he knows but I do think that Coach's strengths lie elsewhere. His ability to motivate, lead, and organize are second to none. But I have felt that over the last few years he has taken steps away from the being a micro-manager to a macro-manager in regards to his approach to coaching, which I think is common as Coaches mature and stay at one job for as many years as he has. There has been some rumblings last year and during the off-season that he is re-evaluating how he does things, so maybe things will change some next season. Regardless, it will be an interesting year next year as Coach has some holes and some options to explore.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dukemomLA View Post
    Well, I think he hasn't utilized his players properly. He continues to stick to his 6-7 man rotation when he has 8-10 experienced, viable players sitting on the bench. He doesn't use the backdoor cut, even though he has the players to excel with that. He hates the 2-3 zone, even though that can work miracles with the players he's had in the last few years.

    He often "sticks with the game plan" even when it's NOT WORKING.

    Okay, I sound like a K basher. I'm not. I LOVE Coach K. I idolize K. I'm just trying to be realistic about my concerns from 2002-2007. GO DUKE. GTHCGHT
    The problem with your logic is that from 86 to 94, Duke's peak years, all of your mentioned "weaknesses" about Coach K were still true. When has he ever played a lot of zone, for instance? Man-to-man has always been K's staple.

    There really are only two differences between the periods of 86-94 and 99-07, as far as I can tell.
    (1) Duke started losing players to early entry (imo, this has clearly hurt Duke's depth in recent years), and
    (2) Duke started shooting a lot more 3s (this is the only strategical change I've noticed over the years and, imo, is the reason why there's been a tendency since 1995 for Duke to build and blow huge leads [3-pters are less consistent than 2-pt shots; you can build a big lead if you're hot but quickly blow it if you go cold], at least once or twice a season)
    Last edited by Troublemaker; 04-20-2007 at 11:17 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    The problem with your logic is that from 86 to 94, Duke's peak years, all of your mentioned "weaknesses" about Coach K were still true. When has he ever played a lot of zone, for instance? Man-to-man has always been K's staple.
    The other problem with the logic is that K has had 9 defensive players of the year, which is 3 times more than the next best coach. Clearly the guy knows a thing or two about defense.

    Also dukemom's statement about the zone working well with "the players he's had in the last few years." That doesn't even make any sense. We've had lock down defenders like C Du, Dockery, and Ewing, and had Sheld down low and before that we had Battier. All of them excel in Man-to-man (obviously sheld would work well in a zone, too)

  15. #15
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    Washington, D.C.

    Impressive List

    Of the top 10, I see Pintino and Calipari as being misplaced. Snake oil salesmen.

    The K man, to me, sets a different standard than the other top 10ers. something about the choices he makes, and the development of players that he facilitates, that is different. The other two mentioned that, to me, seem to share those qualities: JTIII and Beilein.

    The others have wonderful programs at wonderful places with big arenas and beautiful babes, and can all "coach em up," as the old ball coach likes to put it. Sooo?

    Did any of you catch when I think it might have been the fireman asked something like, "If you had gotten one or two of them that you just missed, do you think it would be fair to say that you would be in a class by yourself just behind Wooden?" If you didn't, K said something like, "If I ever care about such things, somebody should punch me in the face." Some things are priceless!

  16. #16
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    ...(2) Duke started shooting a lot more 3s (this is the only strategical change I've noticed over the years and, imo, is the reason why there's been a tendency since 1995 for Duke to build and blow huge leads
    This is an interesting thought, but I'm not sure it's true. For one thing, I don't have the stats to show whether we are really taking more 3-pointers or not. Certainly we did when JJ was around, but that decision is hard to second guess, is it not?

    From the standpoint of scoring points, you'd have to have be one-third again more accurate from 2-point land than you are from 3-point land in order to favor the approach of shooting 2-pointers exclusively or almost exclusively. Many teams shoot close to 40% from 3-point land. So, that team would have to shoot 60% or more from 2-point land in order to make shooting 2's worthwhile, and in order to do that, a lot of the shots would have to be layups, slams, or other deep in the paint shots.

    I personally think that the 3-point shot rule is a two-headed monster; one the one hand it makes basketball games more entertaining, but on the other hand it has really ruined (in some ways) the game of basketball I grew up watching. (I'd like to go on about this but it is tangential to this discussion. I've been thinking about starting a thread about the "state of the game" for quite some time. Maybe I'll do that within the next few days.) In the meantime I'll just conclude by saying that to me it's not clear that over-reliance on the three has been one of Duke's problems in the past few years.

  17. #17
    Oh, there's actually no doubt that Duke takes more threes in the post-95 era. I'm too lazy right now to break it down per game right now (or, more preferably, per possession), but you can look at the overall season totals here: http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/

    If you look season by season chronologically through the K era, you'll notice a sudden spike in three-pt attempts in 95 that has pretty much been maintained over the past dozen years or so.

    Anyway, my point really wasn't to argue that shooting more threes has contributed to Duke's relative decline in postseason results (although I do believe it contributes). My point is just that if someone is going to complain about K's stupid decisions from 02-07, they should probably pick some examples that weren't also K's choices from 86-94. Unless they can argue that times have changed and those choices are no longer valid because of x, y, and z.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dukemomLA View Post
    Well, I think he hasn't utilized his players properly. He continues to stick to his 6-7 man rotation when he has 8-10 experienced, viable players sitting on the bench. He doesn't use the backdoor cut, even though he has the players to excel with that. He hates the 2-3 zone, even though that can work miracles with the players he's had in the last few years.

    He often "sticks with the game plan" even when it's NOT WORKING.

    Okay, I sound like a K basher. I'm not. I LOVE Coach K. I idolize K. I'm just trying to be realistic about my concerns from 2002-2007. GO DUKE. GTHCGHT
    1. Duke used the 2-3 zone often this year, almost always when the other team had the ball out of bounds under the basket.

    2. Duke's game plan changed significantly on offense this year. We got away from the high post pick that has been so effective in the past, mostly because this played to neither Paulus nor McRoberts strengths. By the end of the year, our problems weren't on offense, they were on defense.

    I see the other criticisms potentially valid, though I might disagree somewhat, but that scarcely rises to the level of "really stupid", don't you think? For example, not using a backdoor cut is a rather minor detail. If a team doesn't run a certain version the Princeton offense, you don't see the backdoor cut as a regular part of the offense. Duke isn't alone in that respect.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Coack K Did

    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    In all honesty, if you look at the last 2 years (which are obivously the most important given Donovans rank of # 1) the only person that I think is wrongly placed anywhere in the top 5 is calhoun. I dont care how many guys you lost to the draft. A good coach doesn't miss the dance. Coach k should be 3 here at WORST
    If I'm not mistaken Coach K missed the dance also. I guess that you can argue that it was Gaudet who missed it, but it was Coach K's team.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Chicago, IL
    This is all a question of "what have you done for me lately?".

    Two years ago, people were bashing Donovan for being an underachiever who couldn't get it done in the tourney. Now, he's being added to coaching's Mount Rushmore.

    K will rise again. If you think we hate losing, imagine how he feels.

    dukemsu

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