Photo on Front Page (aka Marin and Verga)

[gw67]

Is that Jack Marin shooting a jumper over Havlicek? Friends and I journeyed up to Baltimore and watched many a Bullets game. Jack was a terrific player for the Devils in the mid-60's and a good pro player for the Bullets and Houston.

gw67

[chrishoke]

Is that Jack Marin shooting a jumper over Havlicek? Friends and I journeyed up to Baltimore and watched many a Bullets game. Jack was a terrific player for the Devils in the mid-60's and a good pro player for the Bullets and Houston.

gw67

That's what I thought. One of my childhood heroes.

[MChambers]

And the only player ever traded straight up for Elvin Hayes. I've read that a reporter asked the Bullets' coach, Gene Shue, if it really was a straight one-for-one trade, and Shue said, "No, we get Elvin's psychiatrist too."

Never get away with that today.

[Jim3k]

Is that Jack Marin shooting a jumper over Havlicek? Friends and I journeyed up to Baltimore and watched many a Bullets game. Jack was a terrific player for the Devils in the mid-60's and a good pro player for the Bullets and Houston.

gw67

And the unforgettable Buffalo Braves (1973, 74, and 75).

The Braves eventually became the San Diego and then the L.A. Clippers

[ricks68]

He was a like, automatic, from the right corner with his bank shot from the outside. Another guy, like Verga, who would have benefited tremendously from the 3-point scoring change. And don't forget, he was another member of our long list of star defensive players----just part of a triple threat, when you include his outstanding rebounding numbers. All American all the way.

ricks

[blueprofessor]

He was a like, automatic, from the right corner with his bank shot from the outside. Another guy, like Verga, who would have benefited tremendously from the 3-point scoring change. And don't forget, he was another member of our long list of star defensive players----just part of a triple threat, when you include his outstanding rebounding numbers. All American all the way.

ricks

and I seriously doubt he was a better 3 point shooter than Bob Verga, who shot .296 from 3 range with only one year significantly above .300.

Incidentally, Verga and Marin apparently disliked each other.Marin was a fine all-around player(greatly admired by Bubas) and a great foul shooter and good percentage shooter from the floor.
Best--Blue " Why isn't Bubas in the HOF?" Prof

[blueprofessor]

Is that Jack Marin shooting a jumper over Havlicek? Friends and I journeyed up to Baltimore and watched many a Bullets game. Jack was a terrific player for the Devils in the mid-60's and a good pro player for the Bullets and Houston.

gw67

He was on the all-rookie team in 1967 and an all-star in his last year with the Bullets and also his next year with Houston.
He might have been an all-star earlier ,but the Bullets were loaded.

Best--Blueprofessor

[ricks68]

and I seriously doubt he was a better 3 point shooter than Bob Verga, who shot .296 from 3 range with only one year significantly above .300.

Incidentally, Verga and Marin apparently disliked each other.Marin was a fine all-around player(greatly admired by Bubas) and a great foul shooter and good percentage shooter from the floor.
Best--Blue " Why isn't Bubas in the HOF?" Prof

I believe that it would have been very likely, had Verga been in the generation that allowed players 4 years of varsity playing time, and the 3 point line, he (and not Hanstravel) may well have been the all-time ACC scoring leader. But then, what about Mullins, or Heyman, etc?



I do not understand, however, using your reasoning that Verga shooting .300 from 3 point land in the pros translates to how well he would have shot in college. I watched it first hand, as others on this board did. His favorite spot was just to the right of the top of the circle, and he just poured them in. As a freshman, he scored over 40 pts in a game with all kinds of moves to the basket. But as an upper classman, he concentrated on mainly outside shooting. His overall percentages were very good considering there were a lot less lay-ups and mid-range shots taken. (And Just look at JJ's percentages on his 3 point shots in the pros now.)

Also, where did I state that Marin was a better long range shooter than Verga, by the way? Marin was a great scorer, and one of his favorite shots was from the corner that he would consistently bank in. And yes, that shot was often in what would have been 3 point range when it was first instituted.

Lastly, Verga was a loner. He did not socialize much with the other players. While I have no personal knowledge of Marin and Verga's personal relationship, if there was a problem, it may have been misconstrued. It was probably not so much that Marin and Verga may have disliked each other, as it was that Verga just didn't "get along" so well with most (if not all, of the other players). But "dislike" may be a pretty strong word. Even "get along" maybe too strong for Verga's lack of a strong relationship with the group. But then, since I wasn't privvy to much inside information on the team, outside of a friendship with Tim Kolodziej, I could be wrong.

Oh, and I believe that Bubas would be in the Hall if he had not stopped coaching. Maybe it's because he just stopped too soon and didn't have the long term part.

ricks

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I believe that it would have been very likely, had Verga been in the generation that allowed players 4 years of varsity playing time, and the 3 point line, he (and not Hanstravel) may well have been the all-time ACC scoring leader. But then, what about Mullins, or Heyman, etc?



I do not understand, however, using your reasoning that Verga shooting .300 from 3 point land in the pros translates to how well he would have shot in college. I watched it first hand, as others on this board did. His favorite spot was just to the right of the top of the circle, and he just poured them in. As a freshman, he scored over 40 pts in a game with all kinds of moves to the basket. But as an upper classman, he concentrated on mainly outside shooting. His overall percentages were very good considering there were a lot less lay-ups and mid-range shots taken. (And Just look at JJ's percentages on his 3 point shots in the pros now.)

Also, where did I state that Marin was a better long range shooter than Verga, by the way? Marin was a great scorer, and one of his favorite shots was from the corner that he would consistently bank in. And yes, that shot was often in what would have been 3 point range when it was first instituted.

Lastly, Verga was a loner. He did not socialize much with the other players. While I have no personal knowledge of Marin and Verga's personal relationship, if there was a problem, it may have been misconstrued. It was probably not so much that Marin and Verga may have disliked each other, as it was that Verga just didn't "get along" so well with most (if not all, of the other players). But "dislike" may be a pretty strong word. Even "get along" maybe too strong for Verga's lack of a strong relationship with the group. But then, since I wasn't privvy to much inside information on the team, outside of a friendship with Tim Kolodziej, I could be wrong.

Oh, and I believe that Bubas would be in the Hall if he had not stopped coaching. Maybe it's because he just stopped too soon and didn't have the long term part.

ricks

Ricks, you covered many points running through my mind as the discussion of Verga and Marin has moved along. My memory of Bob Verga, who was in my class, was that he was indeed a loner. He was quiet and pretty much stayed to himself. (Imagine my surprise during the last basketball season when I learned that my former neighbor of 20+ years in Durham had dated Bob during his senior year!)

I concur regarding your observation regarding Vic Bubas and being a Hall of Fame coach. Despite the relatively short time he coached, Vic Bubas brought innovations to college basketball, many of which are still part of the game and how coaches organize today. We were so fortunate to see him at work!

I didn't realize that you and Tim were friends. I used to run into him when I attend national insurance and risk management conferences.

[ricks68]

We were only friends for a brief time. I went with him and some of the players to Nagshead (sp?) during a break in the Summer Semester. I played second base for a summer intramural team that was mostly the Bball players. Mike Lewis was the pitcher, Vacendak was the catcher, Kennedy was 1st base, etc. I think Tim may have been the shortstop, or he was 1st base. (It's been a long time.)I just sat on the second base bag during the games as I don't remember any opposing player even getting a piece of one of Lewis' pitches.

I haven't been able to post in a long while, but I have especially been following your posts, as always. It was great finally meeting you at one of the games.

ricks

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

We were only friends for a brief time. I went with him and some of the players to Nagshead (sp?) during a break in the Summer Semester. I played second base for a summer intramural team that was mostly the Bball players. Mike Lewis was the pitcher, Vacendak was the catcher, Kennedy was 1st base, etc. I think Tim may have been the shortstop, or he was 1st base. (It's been a long time.)I just sat on the second base bag during the games as I don't remember any opposing player even getting a piece of one of Lewis' pitches.

I haven't been able to post in a long while, but I have especially been following your posts, as always. It was great finally meeting you at one of the games.

ricks

Hope that all is well and that the time away from posting has been because you've been busy.

You can verify that I am a real person despite missing all photo shoots in Cameron! Maybe there will be a photo of one of my football tailgate soirees....

Did you know that Mike Lewis lives in Kernersville? When I moved back to WS, my mortgage broker turned out to be a good friend of Mike's.

[blueprofessor]

:


Also, where did I state that Marin was a better long range shooter than Verga, by the way? Marin was a great scorer, and one of his favorite shots was from the corner that he would consistently bank in. And yes, that shot was often in what would have been 3 point range when it was first instituted.


Oh, and I believe that Bubas would be in the Hall if he had not stopped coaching. Maybe it's because he just stopped too soon and didn't have the long term part.

ricks

and you never said Marin was a better long range jump shooter and I never wrote you said it. Marin certainly was not.That was the reason Marin would not have been a good 3-point shooter.If Verga was not, then Marin was not.

Marin was banking his shots from much closer--- banking from 3 point land exists only by accident.I also saw them play a lot in college and the pros.

Verga finished over 1000 points behind Redick (2769---1758).He made 728

field goals in his career.If he had had 4 years , he would have made maybe 280 more baskets in a fourth year, barring injury.Do not see him passing Hans or JJ with 1008 made baskets ,as not every one would have been a 3--obviously.

Both Marin and Verga were fine scorers---just not deep shooters from 3-point range.We have stats on Verga--very poor 3point shooter over several years. Marin was not as good a long range scorer---so his 3 point stats would have been worse than Verga's.

Best regards--Blue--Prof

[ricks68]

Blue prof,

Are you sure it's Bob Verga you've been talking about here? [B]Bob[B] Verga not a very good long range shooter in college? And if you take the average number of points per game Verga scored in college and factored in all of the shots he took from the "not" long range you said he was not very good at counting as a "3" instead of a "2", I think you would have a heck of a lot of points. Now, add a fourth year, and then what have you got? Also, ever wonder who JJ's form seems to remind a lot of people of? And I will repeat again, just because JJ hasn't done so well shooting 3's in the pros did not make him any less of a 3 point machine in college.

I have never heard of anyone on this board ever claim that Verga was anything other than a superb outside shooter. Maybe we need Jim Sumner or some of the other accurate Duke Bball historians to chime in here to settle it. I would bet that Devil in the Blue Dress is one that would agree with me, as she saw Verga make the same shots that I saw when he was on the varsity.

Oh, and by the way, I'm glad you didn't tell Sam Jones that there's no way you can make a bank shot from just about anywhere on the court consistently.

the rickster

[Indoor66]

Blue prof,

Are you sure it's Bob Verga you've been talking about here? [B]Bob[B] Verga not a very good long range shooter in college? And if you take the average number of points per game Verga scored in college and factored in all of the shots he took from the "not" long range you said he was not very good at counting as a "3" instead of a "2", I think you would have a heck of a lot of points. Now, add a fourth year, and then what have you got? Also, ever wonder who JJ's form seems to remind a lot of people of? And I will repeat again, just because JJ hasn't done so well shooting 3's in the pros did not make him any less of a 3 point machine in college.

I have never heard of anyone on this board ever claim that Verga was anything other than a superb outside shooter. Maybe we need Jim Sumner or some of the other accurate Duke Bball historians to chime in here to settle it. I would bet that Devil in the Blue Dress is one that would agree with me, as she saw Verga make the same shots that I saw when he was on the varsity.

Oh, and by the way, I'm glad you didn't tell Sam Jones that there's no way you can make a bank shot from just about anywhere on the court consistently.

the rickster

You are dead on with this post. I saw Verga in almost all of his home games during his career. He was a deadly outside shooter. Most of his points were from outside - and outside the 19'9" range. His quick, over the head release allowed him to score at will against virtually all defenders.

Given the 3 point goal, his production would have increased by about 1/3 or more.

[blueprofessor]

Well,ricks68, I did see Bob Verga play a lot, including while he was with Carolina from 1969 until traded to Pittsburgh.
He was a fine outside shooter ,as I have said in prior posts, but a poor 3-point shooter----I provided the stats ( career .296)---but you are compelled to argue he was a great 3-point shooter from memory,not factual evidence.There is no contradiction in stating that Verga was a fine outside shooter and still lacking in accurate 3-point range,as the stats confirm.You stated that Verga's favorite spot " was just to the right of the top of the circle, and he just poured them in."
That favorite Verga shot position would be closer than 19'9" , since the very top of the circle is 19'9" from the basket center and the shooter has to be behind the line when his feet last touch the floor so that fave Verga shot is about a foot or foot and a half ( you may wish to check collegiate court dimensions and diagram)closer than 19'9", and ,hence, only a 2 shot attempt.Again, in no way does this inability to accurately shoot a 3 detract from his ability (or Sam Jones's or Hal Greer's---both great jump shooters ) as an outstanding shooter.

Further, you asserted that Marin had a patented corner shot in which he banked in shots from 3point range---are you still arguing that assertion when the corner angle to bank in 3s is so acute and unrewarding that players bank in 3s only by accident ,not design? Try banking in a 3 from the corner .

Sam Jones had a lovely and reliable bank shot typically taken on a Celtic break and shot it from 15 feet in as there was no sense taking a longer shot with an open look (recall--fast break).There was no NBA 3 in his day and to have taken one regularly w/o the extra point reward would have been contrary to the smart player he was--and would have gotten a reprimand from Red and, later, Russell.
Again, on the math to declare Verga as perhaps able to become the all-time ACC scorer: Verga made 728 field goals in 3 years, with 283 his high his senior year.He scored 1758 points. If we assumed he would have made 280 baskets his 4th year, he would have had 1008 baskets in his career. If every one had been a 3 ( without adjusting down his shooting percentage and ,hence, made baskets given the longer distance for 3--points , and w/o subtracting the fewer foul shots he would have been awarded for 3point shots ( recall 3 point range was 22 feet in college in 1980 in the Southern Conference and then 19'9", and 20'9" ), he still would be behind JJ and Hanstravel . For instance JJ had 2769 points. Under the premise that all Verga's baskets would have been 3s with no dropoff in made baskets because of the longer range and no dropoff in foul shots made because of less frequent fouls called, Verga would still have been behind JJ and Hans.
Now, the player the 3pointer indeed would have helped was the great Jerry
West!
Best regards---Blueprofessor

[ricks68]

Blue,

I will just let others, like Indoor, do my talking for a while. I don't post during the day. Hopefully, I'll have some fun stuff for you to see this evening if I can pull it off. (Hint: Take a look at the Bball section of the '66 and '67 Chanticleer.)

You do know a lot of stuff, but saying that Verga was not a good outside shooter I think is Reddddickulous. It's good to have a lot of us old timers around who know that the Coach K era was not the only great Duke Bball era.

ricks

[blueprofessor]

Blue,

I will just let others, like Indoor, do my talking for a while. I don't post during the day. Hopefully, I'll have some fun stuff for you to see this evening if I can pull it off. (Hint: Take a look at the Bball section of the '66 and '67 Chanticleer.)

You do know a lot of stuff, but saying that Verga was not a good outside shooter I think is Reddddickulous. It's good to have a lot of us old timers around who know that the Coach K era was not the only great Duke Bball era.

ricks

that you refrain from stating that I have written that Verga was "not a good outside shooter" ,as my written comments are to the contrary. My reference to Verga is that he was a fine outside shooter, but a poor 3point shooter(see stats).There is no contradiction as a number of fine shooters like Verga do not have the range to be accurate 3 point shooters.
As a matter of fact, you may have missed my opening in the last post, to wit:
"Well,ricks68, I did see Bob Verga play a lot, including while he was with Carolina from 1969 until traded to Pittsburgh.
He was a fine outside shooter ,as I have said in prior posts, but a poor 3-point shooter----I provided the stats ( career .296)---but you are compelled to argue he was a great 3-point shooter from memory,not factual evidence.There is no contradiction in stating that Verga was a fine outside shooter and still lacking in accurate 3-point range,as the stats confirm."

Verga played in a pro league that lacked much defense---by design, the ABA owners sensed correctly that the public wanted offense. Verga shot .296 from 3 in a poor-- defense league (unlike JJ and the superior defensive athletes on him---remember the NCAA Tourney games).By your description of where Verga at least took his favorite outside shots in college, he was shooting w/i 19'9",the shortest of all the college 3 pointers( 22'and 20' 9").In the pros he would have about a 2 foot longer shot in a league w/o much defense.That meant open looks on 3s ;still he shot poorly.

I loved those Duke teams and even traveled to Cole in 1966 to see them lose to KY.I am fairly sure Duke would have handled Texas Western as Mike Lewis would have dominated in an area that TW controlled KY. Lewis was bigger and stronger than Lattin. And it was sad to see Verga not at full strength vs. KY in the semi-final loss---Verga scored a career low of 4 points in 28 minutes in an 83--79 loss. So count me in for the Verga and Marin fan club as exceptional players and fine shooters---just not fine 3 point shooters.
Thanks for the memories--one of the reasons to love commiserating with fellow Blue Devils and fans.

Best--Blueprofessor

[sagegrouse]

Both Marin and Verga were fine scorers---just not deep shooters from 3-point range.We have stats on Verga--very poor 3point shooter over several years. Marin was not as good a long range scorer---so his 3 point stats would have been worse than Verga's.

Best regards--Blue--Prof

Disagree with your analysis. Prior to the 3-point shot, much of basketball was about getting close to the basket in an advantageous position to shoot. Marin, who was fairly long and seriously quick, had no reason to develop an outside shot, inasmuch as it wasn't adopted in the NBA until after his time. Who knows what his capability would have been, if that had been his ticket to being an all-star?

sagegrouse

[gw67]

I did not get to see either Verga or Marin play a large number of games for Duke but my recollection was that both were good shooters from the field and foul line. Verga had an unorthodox jump shot that was nearly impossible to block and Marin was an outstanding all around player (According to Bubas, the best player he coached at Duke.) I did see Jack play in the pros for the Bullets and he had an excellent outside shot.

Thinking about Jack's play got me to thinking about some of my favorite players from the Bullets - Unseld who at 6-6 gave Russell and Wilt many a tough battle; Dischinger, who was truly ambidextrous and could shoot as well with his left ahnd as most pros of that day could shoot with their right; Gus Johnson, who could jump through the roof and was a fine all around player; Earl the Pearl, who had moves that hadn't been seen in the NBA; and a bunch of others, including Mike Riordan who took Jack's place when he was traded. Great memories!

gw67

[blueprofessor]

Disagree with your analysis. Prior to the 3-point shot, much of basketball was about getting close to the basket in an advantageous position to shoot. Marin, who was fairly long and seriously quick, had no reason to develop an outside shot, inasmuch as it wasn't adopted in the NBA until after his time. Who knows what his capability would have been, if that had been his ticket to being an all-star?

sagegrouse

So you agree that Marin had not exhibited an outside shot. From the evidence at hand (not unknown potential),then, Marin was not as good of an outside shooter as Verga.
I was writing about what was quantifiable and observable.Kind of real-world analysis.
I do appreciate the "what might have been to the 4th power" about Marin's shooting.He had a fine mid-range shot that he took when he was open. At other times he drove to the basket. Sounds like a modern strategy as well.

The smart modern players also work for open shots.

Best regards--Blueprofessor