Why Does No One Say It?

[wolfpackdevil]

For one, this thread makes no sense what so ever.

Once those guys get out of college they don't really care about where they played in college.

If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA.

And Raymond Felton is the starting PG for an NBA team that is close to a playoff spot, and if not this year will play in the postseason next year

[longtimefan]

I have to disagree on jordan.yes he was very good. i believe it was more team chemistry of the bulls that helped him excel. i also think he made a living pushing off.top five probably.magic is my vote for best player of all time.

[Biscuit]

I have to disagree on jordan.yes he was very good. i believe it was more team chemistry of the bulls that helped him excel. i also think he made a living pushing off.top five probably.magic is my vote for best player of all time.

You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

[flyingdutchdevil]

You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Absolutely have to agree. You can knock MJ's life choices (gambling, choosing UNC, being the worst GM in the game), but he is the best player in the world.

What we did for basketball in the US and abroad is unparallel. I've lived out of the US my whole life (minus college at Duke) and I can safely say that MJ single-handedly made basketball an international sport.

[Matches]

And Raymond Felton is the starting PG for an NBA team that is close to a playoff spot, and if not this year will play in the postseason next year

This. Felton is a very solid pro. Not a superstar, but he is well above average. Marvin Williams is also an above-average pro. McCants is a decent NBA role player. Jury is still out on Wright. Carolina hasn't been cranking out pros over the last ten years the way it used to, but they've done ok, particularly when one considers the dip in recruiting in late 90's/ early 00's.

[Rich]

Absolutely have to agree. You can knock MJ's life choices (gambling, choosing UNC, being the worst GM in the game), but he is the best player in the world.

What we did for basketball in the US and abroad is unparallel. I've lived out of the US my whole life (minus college at Duke) and I can safely say that MJ single-handedly made basketball an international sport.

I tend to agree with you about MJ, but there might be some elders who would say it's Bill Russell. Following Magic and Bird, and the rise of TV as a medium, MJ's flashiness, skill, smile, and timing was just about perfect for the explosion of the NBA and his role as an international icon. I think at one point his Q rating was second only to Michael Jackson. But it's impossible to compare different players from different generations. A lot of the influence that MJ had on the world has to do with timing and media, something that Bill Russell missed.

I think at some point in the not too distant future there will be a good argument that Lebron James, with his size, speed, domination, and "recency" is the best ever. And with the rise of the digital media and the internet since Jordan he may actually be more exposed than Jordan was. It will take a few championships to get to that level, but it's only a matter of time.

[UrinalCake]

For a long time, I think the notion of Duke not producing great pros had a small element of truth to it. Things have changed in the last 10-15 years, but people's perceptions do not change that quickly. The Duke stars are seen as exceptions rather than the rule, and even some of the more successful players are seen as overrated and/or overpaid.

Don't know if this has been mentioned but Duke's NBA alumni also haven't had a lot of postseason success in the NBA, thus there hasn't been as much exposure for them.

The current crop of Duke players in the NBA is a result of the "glory years" between about 1998-2004. We had an amazing run and UNC was faltering under all the coaching changes. Unfortunately, five or so years from now that will likely reverse itself as UNC is bringing in plenty of NBA talent and I don't see any of our younger grads becoming NBA studs (haven't given up on J.J. finding a role though)

[UrinalCake]

If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA.

I disagree; the reason why just about every player comes to a top program is for a shot at the NBA. If the school doesn't routinely turn out NBA players, then that recruit is not going to want to come. So indirectly it affects us very much whether there is a PERCEPTION that we can produce NBA players.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Preposterous?



That guy has twice as many rings, Wilt scored a lot more, etc. Jordan's definitely in the discussion, but comparing different eras just makes it impossible to say that any player is definitively "the best ever."

I tend to agree with the view that college choice has essentially nothing to do with NBA success, especially in an era where superstars don't stay for 3-4 years any more. It's fun to follow the NBA Alum fantasy league every season, but the "school" that actually wins most years is "Didn't Go To College." A team of Parker, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Howard would smoke any alumni team you throw out there.

[Biscuit]

Preposterous?



That guy has twice as many rings, Wilt scored a lot more, etc. Jordan's definitely in the discussion, but comparing different eras just makes it impossible to say that any player is definitively "the best ever."

I tend to agree with the view that college choice has essentially nothing to do with NBA success, especially in an era where superstars don't stay for 3-4 years any more. It's fun to follow the NBA Alum fantasy league every season, but the "school" that actually wins most years is "Didn't Go To College." A team of Parker, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Howard would smoke any alumni team you throw out there.

Russell excelled on one end of the court. He was not outstanding on offense. He's not among the top 25 of all time in career player efficiency rating, although there's plenty of other centers. Numbers 2,3 and 4 are all centers. Jordan is of course #1, even though he played a lot more games past his prime than others on the list.

So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument. There is no argument to be made for Magic.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Russell excelled on one end of the court. He was not outstanding on offense. He's not among the top 25 of all time in career player efficiency rating, although there's plenty of other centers. Numbers 2,3 and 4 are all centers. Jordan is of course #1, even though he played a lot more games past his prime than others on the list.

So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument. There is no argument to be made for Magic.

Oh, I don't think Magic is in the top 10 so I'm definitely not defending that. But Jordan doesn't have the most titles, the most wins, or the most points/rebounds/assists. Empirically, there's no major stat that puts Jordan at #1 without resorting to silly, after-the-fact stats like "highest career regular season scoring average."

And that's before we get into discussions about relative league strength and competitive pressure, historical trends in officiating, major rules changes, or the simple fact that Russell faced vitriolic and dangerous racist threats every time he stepped on the court.

Look, if you're going to make PER the end-all, be-all that's fine (although even Hollinger admits it's is a flawed system that rewards offense too much). But I'm not sure everyone would agree that T-Mac is one of the 20 greatest players in NBA history. There's an argument that Jordan is the greatest, but PER is a very slender reed to hang the statement that arguing for any other player is "preposterous."

[jimsumner]

"Once those guys get out of college they don't really care about where they played in college.

If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA."

Going to have to post a dissenting opinion here.

First, an awful lot of NBA players do keep up with their alma maters, do go back in summers, do maintain contact with former teammates.

Why would we assume that non-athletes have an allegiance to their alma maters but people who represented that school on a national stage would not?

And colleges absolutely care how their players perform at the NBA level because it matters to the top recruits.

[Biscuit]

Oh, I don't think Magic is in the top 10 so I'm definitely not defending that. But Jordan doesn't have the most titles, the most wins, or the most points/rebounds/assists. Empirically, there's no major stat that puts Jordan at #1 without resorting to silly, after-the-fact stats like "highest career regular season scoring average."

And that's before we get into discussions about relative league strength and competitive pressure, historical trends in officiating, major rules changes, or the simple fact that Russell faced vitriolic and dangerous racist threats every time he stepped on the court.

Look, if you're going to make PER the end-all, be-all that's fine (although even Hollinger admits it's is a flawed system that rewards offense too much). But I'm not sure everyone would agree that T-Mac is one of the 20 greatest players in NBA history. There's an argument that Jordan is the greatest, but PER is a very slender reed to hang the statement that arguing for any other player is "preposterous."

I agree about PER, but Jordan does very well on other stat ratings also. Efficiency numbers also make him look pretty good, as do Win Shares. There aren't records back to Russell's time to calculate that stuff for him, but the whole picture is pretty impressive for Jordan's argument. If anything, I'd say he's underrated.

I'll abandon the "preposterous" thing. A few other players, including Russell and Wilt, ciould make arguments. Magic, as we both seem to agree, is not one of them.

Sorry I wandered off topic, folks.

[bjornolf]

I don't think you can include Jay Williams though. You have to take the motorcycle into account, otherwise you'd have to give Sean May the benefit of the doubt if he'd stayed off the Big Macs. A player's off-court actions that basically end his career can't be ignored.

But you can't say "Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle" any more than I can say "Sean May if he never saw a McDonalds." It doesn't work that way.

Dude, did you even READ my post a few above yours? You just paraphrased me PERFECTLY. I went with "big mac" instead of McDaonald's, but other than that, I said the SAME thing. Sheesh.

I appreciate the flattery though, especially from a heel.

[Biscuit]

Dude, did you even READ my post a few above yours? You just paraphrased me PERFECTLY. I went with "big mac" instead of McDaonald's, but other than that, I said the SAME thing. Sheesh.

I appreciate the flattery though, especially from a heel.

Oops.

I thought about going with Chick-Fil-A instead, but it hit a little too close to my own waistline.

[Bostondevil]

So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument.

Shaking head in dismay, sigh, such a homer. Jordan might beat Russell in one on one but no way those Bulls teams win all the championships if they have to face a team with Bill Russell. He was the best teammate of all time. If I got first pick in a fantasy basketball draft where I could have any player in his prime, I start with Russell. All he ever did was win. Did you read that article about Shane Battier? Russell was that guy too, only with even better stats.

Forget about quality pros and let's talk about living up to expectations because if you consider that, Vince Carter hasn't really been a success in the NBA. Stackhouse is in the same category, should have been a better pro than he turned out to be. Carlos Boozer has far exceeded his. Brand's probably at the break even point. Jason Williams is in the what might have been category. JJ wasn't expected to be so hot in the NBA, his game was certainly analyzed as being not worthy, so I'd say he's exceeded expectations. Battier? Yep. Magette? He's probably what we would have expected, hard to say with a one and done guy. Marvin Williams, underachiever, Wright, same thing, Forte, you bet. William Avery should have stayed at Duke another year, poor kid, but no, he didn't live up to the lottery pick, neither did Trajan.

[bjornolf]

Oops.

I thought about going with Chick-Fil-A instead, but it hit a little too close to my own waistline.

Eh, no biggie. I thought it was funny more than anything else. And I hear you on the waistline thing. Ouch.

[longtimefan]

You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Game 6 of the 1980 finals kareem was out.magic started at center.he played every position on the court in that game.42 points 15 rebounds 6 assists and thier first championship since 71 i think.i dont think jordan could play every position on the court.nor was he asked to.magic was did and excelled.

[longtimefan]

{continued kids interrupted}I dont believe team chemistry and player ability have a lot to do with each other .while both teams had great players i think magic was more versatile than jordan.i cant argue with russell that was before my time.

[BobbyFan]

I'll abandon the "preposterous" thing. A few other players, including Russell and Wilt, ciould make arguments. Magic, as we both seem to agree, is not one of them.

This is fair. I consider Jordan the greatest ever, but I think the two other players for whom strong cases can be made are Wilt and Kareem.