Indicative of "The Problem?"

[tommy]

In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

“It’s up in the air. He’s open to anybody,” C.J. said. “He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke,” he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

[Virginian]

In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

“It’s up in the air. He’s open to anybody,” C.J. said. “He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke,” he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

It seems to me that these kids all see the NBA players as gods. They MUST have heard the ones who were on the gold medal team, Kobe and the rest (who are HUGE role models for every high school player), praise Coach K to the heavens for the last two or three years. Why would any of us think that the average high school prospect would have any disdain for or concern about playing for Duke?

Of course they may think it's not a great match for them personally, but I don't see why we should think this is a universal situation.

If that's really a problem, I'd like to see some real indication of it, which this quote -- which can be interpreted all sorts of ways -- in all likelihood is not.

[roywhite]

In our best days, we didn't recruit or get interest from all the top 10 or top 20 prospects.

UNC or Kansas or Memphi-tucky will always get players. We just need our share of top players to compete for championships. We're coming off a 30-win season and recruiting for 2009 and 2010 both look good.

I don't make much of comments like those of the original post.

[houstondukie]

In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

“It’s up in the air. He’s open to anybody,” C.J. said. “He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke,” he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

I would have agreed with you a couple of years ago, but you're underestimating how much "cooler" Coach K became after he coached Team USA to the gold medal. Those NBA players, who are idolized by these recruits, love Coach K.

[dukelifer]

In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

“It’s up in the air. He’s open to anybody,” C.J. said. “He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke,” he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing.

Well I would imagine that this is linked to the recruitment of John Wall- another Memphis recruit and the supposed number 1 PG in the land who is considering Duke and someone Duke is considering. So perhaps he was simply suggesting that with the late addition of Wall and Henry- Duke might be looking to make some noise.

[chrisheery]

that Duke would be the next best thing going, but he was laughing because everyone knows the kid is going to end up at UK. Perhaps he was just laughing because the idea of it "being open" is absurd and he and the rest of the sports media are in on the joke, but there is no rule about how silly it is that a coach can pick and choose between two full recruiting classes.

[turnandburn55]

If Xavier Henry had said he had "no desire to talk to, to be involved with, to visit, to contemplate in any shape, form or fashion" playing for Coach K.

http://prepinsiders.blogspot.com/200...ears-from.html

Let's not overanalyze...

[Owen Meany]

This is a unique situation in which your concerns can be answered pretty directly. Just look at the SI Coaches Poll thread. I will take the libery of repeating the first post here, because it directly refutes any notion that today's players don't want to play for Coach K.

SI took a poll from the players of the 64 teams who made it to the tourney to see which coach they would most like to play for, besides there own.

Guess who was number 1?

The rankings were as follows

Coach K.....20%
Pitino.......16%
Ol' Roy......13%
Boeheim....8%
Calipari.....8%

Jim Calhoun finished with only 3% of the votes.

So the players in this years tournament actually chose Coach K as the Coach who they would most want to play for. I think this is pretty remarkable, particularly given the media presentation of Duke and its supposed "decline". Coach K is even 50% higher than Ol' Roy, who is absolutely at his career peak thus far. So I think this proves that Henry's comments don't reflect the mindset of the general college basketball player/recruit.


I would venture to guess that Henry's comments reflect more on him than they do on Duke or Coach K. Memphis and Duke don't generally recruit the same players. So it doesn't surprise me that Henry might joke about his brother ending up at Duke. He may find it laughable to think that he would be interested in Duke or vice versa. But obviously many other recruits feel otherwise.

[JG Nothing]

This is a unique situation in which your concerns can be answered pretty directly. Just look at the SI Coaches Poll thread. I will take the libery of repeating the first post here, because it directly refutes any notion that today's players don't want to play for Coach K.

SI took a poll from the players of the 64 teams who made it to the tourney to see which coach they would most like to play for, besides there own.

Guess who was number 1?

The rankings were as follows

Coach K.....20%
Pitino.......16%
Ol' Roy......13%
Boeheim....8%
Calipari.....8%

Jim Calhoun finished with only 3% of the votes.

So the players in this years tournament actually chose Coach K as the Coach who they would most want to play for. I think this is pretty remarkable, particularly given the media presentation of Duke and its supposed "decline". Coach K is even 50% higher than Ol' Roy, who is absolutely at his career peak thus far. So I think this proves that Henry's comments don't reflect the mindset of the general college basketball player/recruit.


I would venture to guess that Henry's comments reflect more on him than they do on Duke or Coach K. Memphis and Duke don't generally recruit the same players. So it doesn't surprise me that Henry might joke about his brother ending up at Duke. He may find it laughable to think that he would be interested in Duke or vice versa. But obviously many other recruits feel otherwise.

Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

[Kewlswim]

Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

Hi,

Talk about the glass half empty! I think one can look at the negatives to death. Duke is about to get two McDonald's All Americans and the most desired transfer student is headed our way. We have a team chock full of players most other programs would want in a heart-beat. WE JUST WON 30 GAMES and the ACC TOURNAMENT. We went to the Sweet 16 and lost to a team that was both hot and matched up well with us. My goodness, now nobody wants to play for us and the sky is falling and Duke is not the same as Coach K, etc. etc.? In most people's minds Coach K and Duke are inextricably linked. Relax. Great players are coming to play for the Devils. One or two or three or ten misses in the recruiting wars don't mean the program is necessarily in decline. Back in the day we missed out on Bill Walton. Having him would have been great, I think the Devils have done pretty well in the years since Bill played.

GO DUKE!

[JG Nothing]

Hi,

Talk about the glass half empty! I think one can look at the negatives to death. Duke is about to get two McDonald's All Americans and the most desired transfer student is headed our way. We have a team chock full of players most other programs would want in a heart-beat. WE JUST WON 30 GAMES and the ACC TOURNAMENT. We went to the Sweet 16 and lost to a team that was both hot and matched up well with us. My goodness, now nobody wants to play for us and the sky is falling and Duke is not the same as Coach K, etc. etc.? In most people's minds Coach K and Duke are inextricably linked. Relax. Great players are coming to play for the Devils. One or two or three or ten misses in the recruiting wars don't mean the program is necessarily in decline. Back in the day we missed out on Bill Walton. Having him would have been great, I think the Devils have done pretty well in the years since Bill played.

GO DUKE!

I never said or suggested that the glass is half empty, nobody wants to play for us, or the sky is falling. I merely implied that the survey does not mean there is any general "mindset" of players one way or another towards K.

Yes, K and Duke basketball are inextricably linked. In the abstract, however, playing basketball for K and being a student at Duke are two different things. A lot of people may want to play for K, but being a student at Duke is not for everyone and that is an undeniable fact.

Finally, there is no doubt that Duke gets great players. I have never complained about K's recruiting record on this BBS. For the most part, we get great players that want to be Duke students. I hope that trend continues, particularly the second part.

[mo.st.dukie]

I definitely think that most recruits have a negative perception of Duke. Coach Collins said in a recent article that when the staff meets with a recruit the first thing they have to do is discuss what life at Duke is like, dispelling all the myths. John Wall even said that his perception of Duke had changed after meeting with Coach K and it seems like Clifton has changed his views after the meeting. It all really started blowing up during J.J.'s senior year, Duke's always been hated but during the 06 and 07 campaigns is when IMO the perceptions of Duke among high school players took a nasty turn and resulted in us missing on some top prospects. I do think landing John Wall could change that though.

[SMO]

Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

I'm sure folks in the Obama administration felt similarly since they didn't win the presidency by a unanimous vote.

[BD80]

... kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. ...

The list of ladies that are 38+ that can REALLY bring it is long and distinguished. Like my... (Sorry, a Top Gun flashback - an old but highly quotable movie)

Maybe it is my own experience, but the smart kids would be jumping on the experienced alternative - they could learn so much more and have a MUCH better experience. Mmmm, that's a lot of experience... and my point.

Coach K is still the HOT pick and can offer so much more than the sexy but shallow alternatives. Who else has coached with the creator of the fastest and most popular offense in the NBA? Who coached Lebron, Kobe, Melo and Dwyane and made it work well?

The hot 21 year old can become frumpy by age 22. The hot 38 year old is the real deal!

[Devilsfan]

I caution you! NEVER underestimate Coach K when he makes up his mind to accomplish anything. He is recruiting (starting with his '10 class) with a passion of old.

[miramar]

I don't think Duke is where everybody wants to be, but I don't think any other school is either. Forty years ago everybody did not want to go to UCLA and it certainly didn't hurt them.

The important thing for recruiting is whether the program can recruit three very good players per year on average. If you can recruit two McDonald's, then you are doing very well, so let's look at the Burger Boys from the last four graduating classes:

2002: Sean Dockery, Shavlik Randolph, J. J. Redick, (Michael Thompson)
2003: Luol Deng, (Kris Humphreys)
2004: DeMarcus Nelson, (Shaun Livingston)
2005: (Eric Boateng), Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus

That's 11 in four years, which is extraordinary, but in parentheses are two who didn't show up at all, and two who left quickly without having contributed much. Shavlik left after three tough years and Deng surprised everyone by leaving after one productive season. McRoberts left after only two years leaving a lot of problems in his wake. So only Dockery, Redick, Nelson, and Paulus stayed for four years, but we can say that only J.J. lived up to expectations.

So I would say that the problem is not recruiting, but a down cycle where many top recruits simply didn't pan out, didn't show up, or only showed up for a cup of coffee. Fortunately, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Singler, Smith, and Williams have helped to turn that around (King, not so much). I would expect the same from Plumlee and Kelly, so I think the situation is resolving itself.

Much of our frustration probably comes from the fact that because of this down cycle, for several years the team seemed to have been missing one key player inside, and then to make things worse we would come up short when we recruited power players such as Patterson, Echenique, and Monroe. We still won't have a bruiser in the middle next year, but we will have four players 6-10 and up, so we should be much better off than we have been since Shelden graduated. No matter what, next year's team will be very talented and should be very successful.

[jv001]

I caution you! NEVER underestimate Coach K when he makes up his mind to accomplish anything. He is recruiting (starting with his '10 class) with a passion of old.

Coach K takes to challenges like no other coach. Don't tell him he can't do something. I firmly believe he has changed his recruiting strategy. After recent losses, he seems to be recruiting multiple players for the same position. As for the Duke perception, you would have to be hiding your head in the sand if you don't think that some of these high school players have preset thoughts about Duke being a preppy, mostly white school with mostly white players. They then look at the NBA and see just the opposite. Coach K has added Nate and C-Well to our coaching staff. That will help in destroying the perception but nothing will help like landing some players like Wall, Knight and our 3 recruits for 2010. Coach K will always be successful and Duke will win their fair share of games. Go Duke!

[slower]

I don't think Duke is where everybody wants to be, but I don't think any other school is either. Forty years ago everybody did not want to go to UCLA and it certainly didn't hurt them.

The important thing for recruiting is whether the program can recruit three very good players per year on average. If you can recruit two McDonald's, then you are doing very well, so let's look at the Burger Boys from the last four graduating classes:

2002: Sean Dockery, Shavlik Randolph, J. J. Redick, (Michael Thompson)
2003: Luol Deng, (Kris Humphreys)
2004: DeMarcus Nelson, (Shaun Livingston)
2005: (Eric Boateng), Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus

That's 11 in four years, which is extraordinary, but in parentheses are two who didn't show up at all, and two who left quickly without having contributed much. Shavlik left after three tough years and Deng surprised everyone by leaving after one productive season. McRoberts left after only two years leaving a lot of problems in his wake. So only Dockery, Redick, Nelson, and Paulus stayed for four years, but we can say that only J.J. lived up to expectations.

So I would say that the problem is not recruiting, but a down cycle where many top recruits simply didn't pan out, didn't show up, or only showed up for a cup of coffee. Fortunately, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Singler, Smith, and Williams have helped to turn that around (King, not so much). I would expect the same from Plumlee and Kelly, so I think the situation is resolving itself.

Much of our frustration probably comes from the fact that because of this down cycle, for several years the team seemed to have been missing one key player inside, and then to make things worse we would come up short when we recruited power players such as Patterson, Echenique, and Monroe. We still won't have a bruiser in the middle next year, but we will have four players 6-10 and up, so we should be much better off than we have been since Shelden graduated. No matter what, next year's team will be very talented and should be very successful.

that UNC has been knocking it out of the park lately, recruiting- and performance-wise. You can offer any and all rebuttals to this statement, but in your hearts, you know it's true. But I believe that the pendulum will start to swing our way again (not necessarily that UNC will decline - because I don't think they will - but that our seemingly insatiable appetite for mega-success will be better sated in the near future).

[Kewlswim]

that UNC has been knocking it out of the park lately, recruiting- and performance-wise. You can offer any and all rebuttals to this statement, but in your hearts, you know it's true. But I believe that the pendulum will start to swing our way again (not necessarily that UNC will decline - because I don't think they will - but that our seemingly insatiable appetite for mega-success will be better sated in the near future).

Hi,

I firmly believe that USA Olympics is what got in Coach K's way. He was simply spread too thin. Look at Tara VanDeVeer at Stanford, she coaches Olympics and her Stanford team goes nowhere *yes I know she took a year off from the team all together* she returns with that behind her and it takes a couple of seasons to rev everything back up and now she is back with a vengeance. Good luck in the Final Four Cardinal (ladies) BEAT UCONN.

GO DUKE!

[miramar]

Hi,

I firmly believe that USA Olympics is what got in Coach K's way. He was simply spread too thin. Look at Tara VanDeVeer at Stanford, she coaches Olympics and her Stanford team goes nowhere *yes I know she took a year off from the team all together* she returns with that behind her and it takes a couple of seasons to rev everything back up and now she is back with a vengeance. Good luck in the Final Four Cardinal (ladies) BEAT UCONN.

GO DUKE!

That's certainly very possible for this year's freshman class. The sophomores and juniors were very solid and carried the team, while the seniors were the #1 rated class at the time, although a lot of things happened on the way.

But if you look at the freshman, Miles basically fell in our lap, while Williams was a very late and very fortunate pickup. For a while there our only recruit was Olek, who I hope will become a very productive player, but you have to wonder if the staff would have gotten more players early if they hadn't been so busy.