Perspective

[SoCalDukeFan]

I would rather lose in the Sweet 16 with K and our guys than win the whole tournament with Calhoun and the UConnvicts.

We wonder about GH turning pro. Every so often we wonder why K took a chance on a good kid from a tough background who tries hard academically and wants very much to go to Duke. UConn fans should wonder why Calhoun recruited a guy with a checkered past and four high schools, one whom another UConn student needed to get a restraining order against, one whom violated the order, and one whom Calhoun continued to recruit even after the player was expelled from UConn. Not to mention wondering about NCAA sanctions for recruiting violations.

We had a recruiting class rated number 2 in the country and it did not pan out. Greg Paulus, forward Josh McRoberts, forward Marty Pocius, center Eric Boateng and forward Jamal Boykin. Only one guy left the NBA. Maybe the staff was wrong about those players but so were lots of others. The team and coaching really did a great job this year when you consider the lack of contribution from that recruiting class.

Coach K is many things and one is "competitor." My guess is that he will evaluate what Duke needs to do to get to the next level and take the steps to get there. I know I will enjoy watching him to do it.

SoCal

[NYDukie]

I would rather lose in the Sweet 16 with K and our guys than win the whole tournament with Calhoun and the UConnvicts.

We wonder about GH turning pro. Every so often we wonder why K took a chance on a good kid from a tough background who tries hard academically and wants very much to go to Duke. UConn fans should wonder why Calhoun recruited a guy with a checkered past and four high schools, one whom another UConn student needed to get a restraining order against, one whom violated the order, and one whom Calhoun continued to recruit even after the player was expelled from UConn. Not to mention wondering about NCAA sanctions for recruiting violations.

We had a recruiting class rated number 2 in the country and it did not pan out. Greg Paulus, forward Josh McRoberts, forward Marty Pocius, center Eric Boateng and forward Jamal Boykin. Only one guy left the NBA. Maybe the staff was wrong about those players but so were lots of others. The team and coaching really did a great job this year when you consider the lack of contribution from that recruiting class.

Coach K is many things and one is "competitor." My guess is that he will evaluate what Duke needs to do to get to the next level and take the steps to get there. I know I will enjoy watching him to do it.

SoCal

I know Paulus has gotten a lot of grief this year and in the past but it's amazing how that class just fizzled and let's be honest, really dragged down the Duke product the past few years. I commend Paulus for sticking it out, it goes to show you what type of person he is and will be later in life.

Looking back to about 2004, with Deng leaving early, Livingston not coming and McBobs' class not remotely living up to any expections, its no wonder that the team has had a void at PG and in the post and has been revolving around 2-3 primary scorers. I know we can talk about Monroe, PP and Boyton but the fact was they never signed on with Duke, whereas the others had. You can't cry over something you really never had.

That said, I do think the prospects are looking up. It may or may not begin next year but with what we have coming in next year and in 2010 to mesh with what we have, I think we have the chance to get back into the elite team conversation the next few years.

[Saratoga2]

I believe that Gerald will return and we know Kyle will return. There are a couple of additional questions that will impact the team going forward.

Will we lose a bench player like Plumlee or Czyz?

Based on the plethora of bigs for next years team, I can imagine a level of frustration with waiting and possibly not getting my PT going forward.

Will we recruit another guard for next year?

With a maximum of 4 guards returning, it seems to be important to have a backup to take some of the minutes and to help in the event of illness or injury. If Henderson leaves it becomes even more critical.

We could also be forced into moving Singler to a small forward position, in the event we get really low on guards.


Will players see improvement over the summer?

I see Scheyer as essentially developed to his potential already and expect little growth in his game, which is already very good.

Henderson could mature in game decision making and could improve his ball handling. He is very good now and could be the mainstay of the team with another year to mature.

Singler has grown as a player this year and could improve a little in his game decision making, but he is already a mainstay of the team.

Williams has a great deal of room to improve. Clearly his shooting could be a lot better and he can dramatically improve that over the summer. He also can improve his move to go right. He is a star in the making.

LT certainly could improve a lot if he bulked up from around 220 to more like 235. He plays hard but has not really learned offensive moves to make himself a complete player. He could also improve if he finally realizes to avoid reach in and bumping fouls. It's hard to guess where his game will go over the summer.

Zoubek made some improvements this year, but he doesn't seem to look for an offensive side to his game. I expect only a minor improvement from him, but even that said, he can make a contribution.

Nolan seems to have made improvement in his game understanding and scoring, with Scheyer running the point. He can make improvements, but I don't expect a lot of change in him.

Plumlee has a lot of up side and Czyz may have but who knows how things will go there.

With Kelly and the other Plumlee, one would hope we will have at least one viable inside player, either to sub for Singler or to give some inside scoring punch to the 5 position. Freshman bigs are usually slow in developing so lets not expect too much from them.

Will we be a better team?

Possibly better with improvements to Elliot and LT and the addition of an inside presence. I don't expect the team to be a dominant one in the best case scenario. Look for another nearly 30 win season and with luck a further run in the NCAAs.

[CDu]

I know Paulus has gotten a lot of grief this year and in the past but it's amazing how that class just fizzled and let's be honest, really dragged down the Duke product the past few years. I commend Paulus for sticking it out, it goes to show you what type of person he is and will be later in life.

Looking back to about 2004, with Deng leaving early, Livingston not coming and McBobs' class not remotely living up to any expections, its no wonder that the team has had a void at PG and in the post and has been revolving around 2-3 primary scorers. I know we can talk about Monroe, PP and Boyton but the fact was they never signed on with Duke, whereas the others had. You can't cry over something you really never had.

That said, I do think the prospects are looking up. It may or may not begin next year but with what we have coming in next year and in 2010 to mesh with what we have, I think we have the chance to get back into the elite team conversation the next few years.

It has been said ad nauseum, but the effective recruiting took a big hit from 2003-2005. In those years, we essentially got Deng, Nelson, McClure, Paulus, and McRoberts. Unfortunately, Deng played only one year, and McRoberts played only two years. Paulus didn't turn into the impact player we hoped. We got and lost Humphries and Livingston before they ever arrived, and a few others transferred after being non-factors.

Things do seem to be changing, but slowly. In 2006, we got Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas, and Zoubek. Two of them have become stars, one has been a consistent starter, and one has been injury-prone. In 2007, we got Singler and Smith. One of them is a star, the other has shown promise. In 2008, we got Williams and Plumlee. Williams has shown promise, Plumlee is a work in progress. In 2009, we'll get Plumlee and Kelly. Time will tell.

So two things are noteworthy:
1. We had a real string of misfortune from 2003-2005 in terms of recruiting success. That weakened the performance on the court the last few years.
2. We have had trouble filling the holes in the post and at point guard. That hindered us this year and will remain the question mark for the next year or two.

Hopefully, a lot of this is just due to bad fortune and then the busy schedule with the Olympic team. If so, perhaps we bounce back to dominance soon. If not, well, we're still pretty good.

[davekay1971]

Here's how we hope to achieve the sweet 16 without G:
Kyle Singler and Jon Scheyer are legit, established studs who are both potential All-ACC performers.

Nolan Smith and EWill both have talent and ability out to here, and either or both could develop into great scoring options next year (so that's about it for your question about Singler and Scheyer having to score 80% of the points).

We've got 2 absolute top prospects coming in next year, who could start for most programs around the country and have a very real chance of making immediate, positive contributions at Duke.

Lance Thomas made a huge improvement from his sophomore year to his junior year. Brian Zoubek also made big strides. Miles Plumlee could very well develop into a solid performer.

So, without G you have a team that has two legit stars, two perimeter players who got a ton of experience this year and showed flashes of star potential, and an inside game that will, without question, be better than it was this year.

And, by the way, G could very well be back.

[buddy]

Everyone is disappointed with last night's loss, especially since it was such a beat down. But last night also indicated what a tremendous season this has been. Duke won 30 games, won the ACC Tournament, and advanced to the Sweet Sixteen without a bona fide post player or point guard. I think that does make us an elite team. And probably one that significantly overachieved. With or without G (and if he is a lottery pick he is gone) we should improve next year. E-Will will be much better. Singler should no longer have to play 5, 4, and 3 all at the same time. A point guard would be very helpful, but Smith and Scheyer probably can handle the job. We will be much bigger, and therefore will have to play a different game. The only question I have is about our athleticism. I have not seen either Mason or Ryan play, so don't know how athletic either of them are.

Just a thought, but if G leaves, I wonder if Marty would reconsider coming back. I could see a role for a 6'5" small forward/shooting guard on next year's team.

[davekay1971]

So two things are noteworthy:
1. We had a real string of misfortune from 2003-2005 in terms of recruiting success. That weakened the performance on the court the last few years.
2. We have had trouble filling the holes in the post and at point guard. That hindered us this year and will remain the question mark for the next year or two.

These points are striking in similarity to points made about "what went wrong" in the 1995-1997 years (a much steeper nosedive, and time will tell if the rebound will be as high). At that time we had a string of recruits and recruiting classes that didn't meet expectations. Again, distraction (at that time, Coach K's health) was blamed as a reason that the recruiting seemed to falter.

I like the prospects for the future. I thought this year would be better than last because kids were maturing and we were getting deeper. It turned out that was right - 30 years, ACC championship, sweet 16.

It's hard to make predictions about next year when such an important piece (Henderson) is up in the air. He's a potential ACC POY kind of talent. But clearly Duke is building with kids that we can hope to be around for 3-4 years, and that builds consistent success.

One of the things we should be taking out of the our current run is that 1986-1994 was an incredible accomplishment, that no one has matched in 3 decades, and probably no one ever will (not even Duke). There are just too many great coaches, too many schools willing to put in the resources, and too much luck involved.

It's time to get some perspective on success. Success is what we had this year. Sure, it's hard to keep that in perspective when you look at our own past (I was at Duke from 1989-1995 getting my BA and MA, saw 4 championship games in 6 years). It's hard to keep that in perspective when the rivals down the road seem to be one step ahead of us, especially if, like me, you live in the middle of Tarheel country. But, whether UNC stumbles against Gonzaga tonight or wins the championship, our season was a success.

[CDu]

These points are striking in similarity to points made about "what went wrong" in the 1995-1997 years (a much steeper nosedive, and time will tell if the rebound will be as high). At that time we had a string of recruits and recruiting classes that didn't meet expectations. Again, distraction (at that time, Coach K's health) was blamed as a reason that the recruiting seemed to falter.

There certainly are similarities. And if we start landing elite post players (like Brand and Boozer) and elite PG (like Williams and Duhon) along with top-tier wings, we'll be right where we were in the 1999-2004 range. That's a big "if" obviously, as we've yet to land those particular pieces.

[Ian]

Ultimately 30 wins don't matter. In sports you're judged by what you do in the post season.

This year was a decent year because we got to the SW-16. That's the only thing that made it a decent year. A first round or 2nd round flame out and this year would be remembered as a disaster.

We overachieved in the regular season, and that was great, but in the end when it mattered most, we just didn't have the horses.

[davekay1971]

Ultimately 30 wins don't matter. In sports you're judged by what you do in the post season.

This year was a decent year because we got to the SW-16. That's the only thing that made it a decent year. A first round or 2nd round flame out and this year would be remembered as a disaster.

We overachieved in the regular season, and that was great, but in the end when it mattered most, we just didn't have the horses.

I'm glad I don't share your view. Did you bother to watch the regular season and ACC tournament (which we won, by the way), or just flip on the TV for the NCAA tournament, since that's the only part of the season that mattered?

[Ian]

I'm glad I don't share your view. Did you bother to watch the regular season and ACC tournament (which we won, by the way), or just flip on the TV for the NCAA tournament, since that's the only part of the season that mattered?

You may not share my view, but you're in the minority. Regular seasons wins are nice, but ultimately what matters is the post-season. That's what people remember. FFs and National Championships are what people remember.

[davekay1971]

You may not share my view, but you're in the minority. Regular seasons wins are nice, but ultimately what matters is the post-season. That's what people remember. FFs and National Championships are what people remember.

You can either enjoy what is accomplished or cry over what's not. Up to you, I'm not going to tell you how you should feel about the season. Like I said, I'm glad I don't share your view, because I think it's pretty sad to "support" a team that accomplished as much as this team did, then say, nope, it all sucked because we ran into a brick wall before the final four. Ultimately, it's your problem if that's the way you look at things, not mine. The only reason I care enough to respond is that your view pretty much disrespects the efforts of our team, which is unfair to them.

Maybe I am in the minority, but, if so, the majority of people have their heads up their rears (which, frankly, is probably true)

[miramar]

Things do seem to be changing, but slowly. In 2006, we got Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas, and Zoubek. Two of them have become stars, one has been a consistent starter, and one has been injury-prone. In 2007, we got Singler and Smith. One of them is a star, the other has shown promise. In 2008, we got Williams and Plumlee. Williams has shown promise, Plumlee is a work in progress. In 2009, we'll get Plumlee and Kelly. Time will tell.

So two things are noteworthy:
1. We had a real string of misfortune from 2003-2005 in terms of recruiting success. That weakened the performance on the court the last few years.
2. We have had trouble filling the holes in the post and at point guard. That hindered us this year and will remain the question mark for the next year or two.

I think we all agree with point #1 that the 2003-05 recruiting didn't work out as well as we would have liked, but let's look at the names you mention since then: Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas, Zoubek, Singler, Smith, Williams, Plumlee, Plumlee, and Kelly. I think with those players (or those who stick around) we have plenty of cause for optimism.

As far as the points in #2, we will have five big men next year and I have to believe that post play will be better. If we just have one guy who can average 10 points and 7 rebounds consistently, the team would really improve. On the other hand, out of those ten players we don't have a real PG, so whether it's Scheyer or Smith running the team, that position could be the key to our success next year. I even wonder if Williams could play PG with some practice. He's quick and showed some real skill for an inexperienced freshman, and since he's not a natural shooter I wonder if that would not be a good possibility for him.

[jv001]

is not defined by whether it wins the NCAA tournament or even makes the Final Four. There will be only one happy team after the dust settles. And only four teams will be happy after the elite eight. I love Duke, but this is just a game played by young men. My life is much more than who wins and loses a game of basketball. My family and my faith are most important to me. So I'll just rejoice in that we won 30 games and won the ACC Championship. Now just wait till next year. Next play and Go Duke!

[Maxwell1977]

Ultimately 30 wins don't matter. In sports you're judged by what you do in the post season.

This year was a decent year because we got to the SW-16. That's the only thing that made it a decent year. A first round or 2nd round flame out and this year would be remembered as a disaster.

We overachieved in the regular season, and that was great, but in the end when it mattered most, we just didn't have the horses.

I gather nothing but a NC will due for you?

[Ian]

First of all, I didn't say it all sucked, I said it was a decent year, but only because we got to the SW-16. That was the barometer for this team.

And you can feel about it however your want, but the bottom line is one has to deal with the world as it is, not as one wish it to be. And the world as it is, winning matters, if it didn't we wouldn't keep score. Winning matters to K too, you think he would have been satisfied with the Olympic experience if his team didn't win the Gold? You think talking about winning all the preliminaries and representing the USA with class would have been enough and "successful" without a Gold? It may be enough for you. But for the overwhelming majority of people who care about sports, it's not enough, they want to win, in the big event.

For the NCAA Men's basketball, the big event is the tournament, ultimately all accomplishment prior to the tournament is not as important as how one performs in this event. It's not about perspective, it's about dealing with reality.

[Ian]

I gather nothing but a NC will due for you?

You would gather wrong. What will "due" for me is that the team perform to their abilities. Of course ultimately the goal is to win the NC, but it's unrealistic to have that expectation for most teams.

This year's team was not good enough for those kind of lofty expectations, SW-16 was their bar.

[NYDukie]

First of all, I didn't say it all sucked, I said it was a decent year, but only because we got to the SW-16. That was the barometer for this team.

And you can feel about it however your want, but the bottom line is one has to deal with the world as it is, not as one wish it to be. And the world as it is, winning matters, if it didn't we wouldn't keep score. Winning matters to K too, you think he would have been satisfied with the Olympic experience if his team didn't win the Gold? You think talking about winning all the preliminaries and representing the USA with class would have been enough and "successful" without a Gold? It may be enough for you. But for the overwhelming majority of people who care about sports, it's not enough, they want to win, in the big event.

For the NCAA Men's basketball, the big event is the tournament, ultimately all accomplishment prior to the tournament is not as important as how one performs in this event. It's not about perspective, it's about dealing with reality.

To put it into "perspective" and in part with our expectations of this team, most felt a Final 4 spot was possible but that either a Elite 8 or Sweet 16 end to the season was more realistic. This team basically accomplished what probably was realistically expected on most fronts. I'm sure Coach K and the teams goal was a NC and after looking in the mirror and being honest with themselves, they probably thought they could but that everything had to break their way to get to that goal.

I think what is blurring everyone's feeling about this team and their results, and I'm guilty of it in a few of my posts today, is how they went out. It exposed and emphasized certain deficiencies they had but at the same time proved what good work Coach K did with the team and the team's overall hard work this year. I know some will say they had 8 McD All American's and they should win 30 games or make the Final 4 but it means nothing if the parts don't fit and in their case, not all the parts were there.

And on a side note, McD representatives are a bit overrated. Those in the game are not necessarily the best players but a combination of those elite players who also represent themselves and their communities in a positve manner. A few players of late who you would think would have been in it were not due to certain situations (i.e. Sheldon back when he was accused of rapet back in 2003 and I believe John Wall is not this year either)

[MulletMan]

First of all, I didn't say it all sucked, I said it was a decent year, but only because we got to the SW-16. That was the barometer for this team.

And you can feel about it however your want, but the bottom line is one has to deal with the world as it is, not as one wish it to be. And the world as it is, winning matters, if it didn't we wouldn't keep score. Winning matters to K too, you think he would have been satisfied with the Olympic experience if his team didn't win the Gold? You think talking about winning all the preliminaries and representing the USA with class would have been enough and "successful" without a Gold? It may be enough for you. But for the overwhelming majority of people who care about sports, it's not enough, they want to win, in the big event.

For the NCAA Men's basketball, the big event is the tournament, ultimately all accomplishment prior to the tournament is not as important as how one performs in this event. It's not about perspective, it's about dealing with reality.

College basketball, along with other collegiate and high school sports, is about much more than winning. It is about... well... read:

Link.

I often find that people who dwell merely on championships as the only definition of success have little experience playing or coaching organized sports. Yes, the goal is always to win, but you don't always define successes by reaching a single goal.

[Ian]

There is a difference between those who play and those who follow sports.

Ultimately the reason people follow sports is to see who wins. And the reason people who play/coach sports can make so much money (or even get free scholarships) is because there are people who watch to see who wins.

Sure, Coach K can probably coach Little League and derive a great joy from teaching them teamwork and pride and everything, but he wouldn't be paid a 7 figure salary doing it.

Sports is about winning and losing. Love it or hate it, that's what it is. If you don't like it, you don't have to follow it. But to turn it into something it's not to rationalize losing is self-deluding.