JWill on the Herd

[Eldorado]

You then say that Brian Zoubek was a McD AA who has not panned out, that Eric Boateng transferred, that Micheal Thompson transferred.

the funny thing with most of the disgruntled big men who have transferred or left early is that they haven't performed any better since leaving. The only guy who had any kind of post-duke success was Shavlik Randolph, who was clearly limited by injuries most of his Duke career.

I think Duke does pretty well recruiting and developing big men, given that there are so few of them around, and that the NBA snatches them up if they are any good.

[FireOgilvie]

So either you accept Boozer and Shelden as evidence of successful big men coaching by the staff, or you accept that coaching doesn't matter, in which case it doesn't really matter who we hire as the big men coach, so why complain about Wojo?

Why complain about Wojo? The whole point of the thread was saying Wojo is a negative for Duke's recruiting of big men. So, we can't get the talented big men in the first place.

[pfrduke]

Neither of us knows for sure. But all I can go on is results. Frankly, I'm just not impressed with the development of our bigs apart from our NBA players. My grandmother could have coached Boozer and Williams and they would have improved both during their time at Duke and after.

This is completely self-serving. For guys who became stars, it can't possibly have anything to do with good coaching (and let's ignore the fact that Shelden developed from a foul-prone, stone-handed freshman to an extremely talented shot-blocker who, despite being left on an island inside, learned to block without fouling and developed a variety of offensive moves - as well as much better hands - over his career). For guys who didn't, it must be a coaching failure. Not granting credit for the work of our best big men and only looking at the alleged failures of those who aren't our best is just pure confirmation bias - you want to see bad big man coaching, so that's what you see.

When it comes to ACC players, recruiting is in many ways just as important as development. We need to get these kids on campus before worrying if Nate James would be more qualified than Wojo to be the big man coach (which, for the record, I think he would do an adequate job considering Wojo's credentials weren't ideal for the position to begin with either). Let's assume Nate James would be an inferior big man coach to Wojo, but that we get a recruit like Monroe or Patterson because having James as the bigs coach doesn't discourage them from committing. I'll take that trade off, because I have much more confidence in Coach K to develop those players than anyone who could possibly be our big man coach anyway.

As to the bolded sentence above, it seems contradictory to your earlier point that you're unimpressed with our big man development. Also, what bona fides does Coach K (a former point guard) have for coaching big men that Wojo doesn't? It's not like Duke was churning out top-flight post players under Coach K until Wojo came along.

Moreover, do you know (I have no knowledge either way) how much time Coach K spends working on post fundamentals with the big men? If he's not running the position drills and making technique corrections himself, then who our big man coach is becomes more important from a talent development POV. More to the point, if it didn't matter - from an actual coaching perspective - who our big man coach was, we wouldn't have one.

The key issue for me here is that it is unacceptable to lose a recruit because a perception exists that someone who will be coaching them will not help them develop, as wrong as that recruit may be. If an average poster like me can look at Wojo and think "How is a tiny, defensive-minded point guard qualified to coach big men?", and an elite big man recruit thinks the same thing, then there's a serious problem which needs to be rectified.

We have one person sort of on record (it was second-hand) as saying he was discouraged by Wojo. Should we react similarly when single high-profile recruits have erroneous perceptions about their ability to develop other parts of their game at Duke? What about a recruit who thinks K cares more about team than player and will alter a player's desired role in order to best suit the team? Heck, what if a HS point guard looks at Greg Paulus' career and thinks "Coach K doesn't know how to develop point guards, so I shouldn't go to Duke"? What coaching change should we make to remedy that false perception?

Look, I'm not saying we should hold on to Wojo for the sake of stubbornness. If he's not doing a good job at his job, by all means, let's explore other options. But I think it's overreaction to suggest a coaching change just because Greg Monroe thinks Wojo isn't good at his job.

[Ian]

Did you even read my post?

Because I already answered your in it.

[NSDukeFan]

I have long been a stanch supporter of Coach K and his ability to assemble a team and a coaching staff, but the persuasive and unassailable facts are what they are.

Wojo and Collins must go - too slow, white and small. They can't recruit the urban ethnic players we need to compete on the national stage.

Coach K should go too.

We need progressive coaches who can bring in the top recruits, like JT III at Georgetown (Greg Monroe), Billy Donovan at Florida (Kenny Boynton), or Billy Gillespie at Kentucky (Patrick Patterson). These recruiting disasters have left us an uncompetitive shell of our former selves while these other programs have steamed on past us.

Of course this has been entirely sarcastic, as the three supposed catastrophic recruiting misses have not prevented Duke from making the sweet 16 nor have they propelled the "winners" even as far as the big dance.

To the extent there has been a perception about our coaching that is negatively affecting our recruiting, I am certain Coach K will take appropriate action. I imagine having Nate and Chris C on the staff will alleviate many concerns expressed here. Since Johnny D left and Wojo and Chris Collins were promoted, does our staff still identify Wojo as the coach responsible for post players?

Has anybody considered that Monroe might just feel stupid for having selected the Hoyas instead of Duke and is looking for an excuse for his poor choice?

First post I laughed out loud at in awhile. That's great. I agree it's time to throw in the towel. Florida, Georgetown and Kentucky get all the big men and good recruits, so we might as well quit.

[Devilsfan]

Monroe just bought little john thompson's spin. Perception is 90% of the... recruitment process.

[RelativeWays]

I'm hoping that this question won't come up anymore in the next couple of years as Chris and Wojo get HC jobs of their own. Not because I want to get rid of them but because I want to see K's latest protogees succeed at the next level.

[moonpie23]

how's patrick patterson's "big man coach" working out ?

[FireOgilvie]

how's patrick patterson's "big man coach" working out ?

Pretty well. He was 1st Team All-SEC this year. He's averaging 18 pts, 9 reb, 2 blocks, and is shooting 60% from the field. Not bad for a sophomore. Duke hasn't had a guy do anything like that since Shelden's senior year.

Also, mgtr, Monroe is third on ESPN's mock draft. Not bad for someone at your "kiddie table."

[gep]

What about a recruit who thinks K cares more about team than player and will alter a player's desired role in order to best suit the team?

Isn't this exactly why Humphries wanted out of his LOI? and went elsewhere?

I'll take what we get... I'm happy...

[ice-9]

The more recent examples of Duke's successful centers - Boozer, Brand, Williams - were all really power forwards playing center in college. And even with those guys our offense did not revolve around dumping it into them. We did at times, but it wasn't the basis of our offense.

I the spirit of your post is valid, but I disagree with the examples.

With Brand, he was *absolutely* the focal point of our offense. It was an inside first, outside when doubled down attack. The fact that we had several capable shooters on that team doesn't change the fact that Brand was the anchor.

With Boozer, his offense came more from penetrate-dish, but that was also because we had two other NPOYs on the same team and a PG that could penetrate at will. If Boozer was on this year's team, my guess is that he would touch the ball on every offensive possession.

Shel was clearly the 2nd option after JJ, but c'mon, it's JJ.

So the point I'm trying to make is that when Coach K has talent at the 5, he will and knows how to make use of it. I think a compelling argument can be made to elite big men recruits that they wouldn't be ignored in the Duke offense.

Now the fact that Monroe pointed to Wojo as having credibility issues as a major reason for not picking Duke...that's definitely concerning. However, I don't see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position just to address that. There's also a part of me that thinks the hiring of Nate James as an assistant coach is Coach K's indirect solution to the perception problem.

[devildownunder]

Now the fact that Monroe pointed to Wojo as having credibility issues as a major reason for not picking Duke...that's definitely concerning. However, I don't see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position just to address that. There's also a part of me that thinks the hiring of Nate James as an assistant coach is Coach K's indirect solution to the perception problem.

When you say you "see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position," what do you mean? Has this happened, because I didn't think it had? Do you believe this is going to happen, and if so, what's your basis for that belief?

[devildownunder]

Monroe just bought little john thompson's spin. Perception is 90% of the... recruitment process.

If that's the case, I think we have a serious problem, and not just with the big men.

[moonpie23]

Pretty well. He was 1st Team All-SEC this year. He's averaging 18 pts, 9 reb, 2 blocks, and is shooting 60% from the field. Not bad for a sophomore. Duke hasn't had a guy do anything like that since Shelden's senior year.

Also, mgtr, Monroe is third on ESPN's mock draft. Not bad for someone at your "kiddie table."

all SEC is not much this year...imagine what he could be doing on the duke team...


don't forget...kwame brown was high on the "draft list" too...just being high on that list doesn't put you on a team that is going to be more successful, and better for THE ATHELETE in the long run...

i'd be willing to bet that PP would trade some of those person numbers (on a terrible team) for a bit of a run...

[FerryFor50]

So, Mr. Monroe, still comfortable the guys at Georgetown? Mr. Patterson, UK still looking good? How are you guys enjoying the NIT? We are doing just fine in the big-boys tournament, AKA the NCAAs. Now you both had a chance to play in the grownup league, but you wanted to be "comfortable." Well, I expect you are comfortable. You don't have to work very hard, and you don't get anywhere. Whereas our guys, losers like Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer are in the Sweet Sixteen in the big-goys tournament.
Just like Thanksgiving -- we sit at the grownup table, you sit at the little kiddie table.

You DO realize that the failures of Georgetown and Kentucky this year have less to do with Monroe and Patterson and more to do with the rest of the players and the coaching right?

Monroe and Patterson are doing just fine - both are still high on draft boards and probably not regretting their decisions THAT much.

[-jk]

Let's not get petty, folks. We can do better than that.

-jk

[Matches]

This debate is somewhat circular. Standing alone, Monroe's (3rd-hand) comments are not that big a deal - he's welcome to his opinion, and we can't land everyone we'd like to.

If Monroe's comments reflect a popular sentiment among high-profile recruits, however, then we have to do *something* to combat that perception. Doesn't matter if Wojo is the greatest big man coach in history (and I tend to agree he's done a very good job) - if the perception is that he's not good, we won't land big men. Simple as that.

So is Monroe alone in the wilderness, or is this how a lot of people feel? I *know* it's a line that's being used against us in recruiting. Whether it's gaining traction.. I dunno.

[roywhite]

This debate is somewhat circular. Standing alone, Monroe's (3rd-hand) comments are not that big a deal - he's welcome to his opinion, and we can't land everyone we'd like to.

If Monroe's comments reflect a popular sentiment among high-profile recruits, however, then we have to do *something* to combat that perception. Doesn't matter if Wojo is the greatest big man coach in history (and I tend to agree he's done a very good job) - if the perception is that he's not good, we won't land big men. Simple as that.

So is Monroe alone in the wilderness, or is this how a lot of people feel? I *know* it's a line that's being used against us in recruiting. Whether it's gaining traction.. I dunno.

With the usual caveats about McDonald's "burger boys" All-Americans, seems to me that our big man recruiting has gone well for the 2009 class with Kelly and M2 Plumlee, and is off to a good start for 2010 with Josh Hairston, who looks to be a very good prospect in the 6'8"/6'9" range.

There've been a few misses, but that's part of recruiting.

I don't have any inside info, but I doubt Coach K is going to yank Wojo from his coaching and recruiting areas. Nate James will continue to get more involved with recruiting, but I don't see that as a reflection on Wojo.

[Boston Dukie]

If we have all been thinking that Wojo could be a problem as the big man coach, of course all the recruits have been thinking it as well. They are muc further removed from wojo, influenced by other coaches, and only 18 years old (so in theory a little more naive). It's that simple. We don't need Greg Monroe to say it out loud

Even if Wojo is the best big man coach ever it doesn't matter. All this talk about player development is over blown

Elton Brand, Boozer, Patterson, Monroe with no coaching are >>>> Zoubek with 4 years of coaching from Pete Newell

Talent matters

Get the talent on the team

Caoch K can then figure out what to do with it

[Duvall]

If we have all been thinking that Wojo could be a problem as the big man coach, of course all the recruits have been thinking it as well.

Well, it's hard to argue with logic like that.