JWill on the Herd

[The1Bluedevil]

I know being in Kansas and having to follow their recruiting to talk basketball that having Danny Manning as their post coach is a huge recruiting bonus.

[Johnboy]

From here: http://www.accsports.com/articles/20...ke-success.php

But Zoubek has proven to be invaluable when matched against punishing big men. He came off the bench in the ACC title game to defend Florida State’s Solomon Alabi after the 7-1 freshman scored two quick baskets against undersized center Lance Thomas. Zoubek blocked Alabi’s first shot, altered his second and turned the talented FSU big man into a non-factor the rest of the game. He did the same thing against 6-11, 298-pound Texas center Dexter Pittman, who abused the Devils early, then got nothing against Zoubek.

So, Zoubek has a breakout senior season. Does perception change?

Monroe's comments sound like they came directly from conversation with a rival school's coach/assistant. Like when Kenny Anderson said "I don't want to be just another horse in Dean Smith's stable."

[Oriole Way]

Ah, back to one of the old standards.

I would challenge Cowherd and any other clown who only watches hoop when they need something to gamble on in football's off-season to look around the country for great "big men". How many are there, in terms of back to the basket 7 foot types?

Almost none. I'll give you Thabeet and Aldrich. Earl Cook is a nice player, but he is certainly not a world-beater. Hans, well, we all know that story (and isn't it interesting that he was on the bench for most of the UNC run on Saturday?). And Hans is 6'8". I'm waiting. Hmmm. There just aren't many big men who fit that profile anymore. Blair might be 6'8". Talented bigs (like Monroe, I'm personally not that sold on Patterson) are few and far between, and yes, they aren't picking Duke for whatever reason. I think the reason may be that Duke is not likely to tailor its entire system to one guy who will be on campus one year. Just my opinion.

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.

But the notion that there are scores of 7 footers wandering the gyms of America is ludicrous. There just aren't many of these guys. Duke hasn't gotten one of them, but almost no one else has, either.

Cowherd should go back to analyzing the fourth round of the upcoming NFL Draft.

dukemsu.

Who said that the big men we want need to be 7 footers? Most of us who clamor for a big man understand that a college big man is, for the most part, only about 6'8-6'10 and plays primarily in the post. Especially Duke fans, who consider some of our our best modern (post 90's) teams those that feature a power forward playing as a center, or as the primary post option: Laettner, Brand, Boozer, Williams.

I honestly feel that Patrick Patterson was a bigger miss than Greg Monroe, although Monroe was also extremely disappointing. With Patterson, I truly believe last year's team would have been a Final Four contender, and this year's team a national title favorite. Just because both kids made terrible decisions shouldn't make us feel better.

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

[Duvall]

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

Based on what, exactly? I'm sure Nate would do a fine job, but he was a shooting guard, not a power forward.

[pfrduke]

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

But is Nate James actually a better big man coach than Wojo? I would wager that none of us really knows whether or not Wojo is an adequate, poor, good, or great coach of big men (I certainly don't). There's anecdotal evidence both ways - Williams and Boozer showed tremendous improvement over their careers, although the progress was from good to great, rather than from average to great, while Zoubek and Thomas have shown much less improvement (but still improved). Near as I can recall, no former Duke big man has come out and said something to the effect of "Steve Wocjiechowski (there's no possible way I spelled that right) held me back - it wasn't until I left Duke that I learned how to be a good post player."

If the problem is just one of perception, the way to respond is to cure the perception, not react to it. Get our former bigs to talk openly with potential recruits about the level of coaching they got. Have Wojo run through a practice session with the recruit. Etc.

If the perception is accurate, and Wojo is, in fact, not a good big man coach, by all means let's get someone else to take that role. If that person can be Nate James, all the better. But we shouldn't be making personnel changes just to react to outside perception unless those changes are actually going to improve our team.

[gotham devil]

Ah, back to one of the old standards.

I would challenge Cowherd and any other clown who only watches hoop when they need something to gamble on in football's off-season to look around the country for great "big men". How many are there, in terms of back to the basket 7 foot types?

Almost none. I'll give you Thabeet and Aldrich. Earl Cook is a nice player, but he is certainly not a world-beater. Hans, well, we all know that story (and isn't it interesting that he was on the bench for most of the UNC run on Saturday?). And Hans is 6'8". I'm waiting. Hmmm. There just aren't many big men who fit that profile anymore. Blair might be 6'8". Talented bigs (like Monroe, I'm personally not that sold on Patterson) are few and far between, and yes, they aren't picking Duke for whatever reason. I think the reason may be that Duke is not likely to tailor its entire system to one guy who will be on campus one year. Just my opinion.

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.

But the notion that there are scores of 7 footers wandering the gyms of America is ludicrous. There just aren't many of these guys. Duke hasn't gotten one of them, but almost no one else has, either.

Cowherd should go back to analyzing the fourth round of the upcoming NFL Draft.

dukemsu.

I don't know how often you watch college basketball, but I assume you meant Earl Clark, not Earl Cook. Although he will be a lottery pick, he was actually outplayed by Brian Zoubek in the playoffs as a senior in high school. Regardless of his growth, suitability, and performance at Duke, based upon his high school performance, longtime HS guru and Krzyzewski friend Howard "Garf" Garfinkel infamously felt he would be Duke's best big man since Mike Gminski.

Louisville, which employs Walter McCarty as their big man coach, has 6'9" Clark, a pair of top 20 freshman 6'8" Samuels and 6'11" Jennings as well as an early verbal from potentially the top junior in 6'10" Jeremy Tyler.

Duke had a chance to hire Rosh McLeod, but opted for Nate James. When and if Collins and Wojo get head coaching jobs in the very near future, perhaps Coach Krzyzewski will try to lure McLeod away from Tom Crean.

[pfrduke]

Based on what, exactly? I'm sure Nate would do a fine job, but he was a shooting guard, not a power forward.

I agree with your overall premise, but write merely to point out that Nate was primarily an inside in high school, and had to do a lot of work at Duke to develop his perimeter game. IIRC, he was recruited as a SF/PF combo, but ultimately ended up a SG/SF combo.

[Duvall]

Unfortunately, compared to Blair at 6-7 1/2 and 265 pounds, Roshown ,at 6-8 and 220 pounds(small forward in the NBA), would look lean.

Exactly. Duke has a pretty good 6-8, 220 pound forward that can score inside and outside. Not that it wouldn't help to have another one.

[Ian]

Look, just because somebody says that's why he didn't pick Duke, doesn't mean that was actually the reason he didn't pick Duke.

So if a recruit says he connected better with an assistant at GT than he did with Chris Collins, should we fire Chris Collins. How about a recruit says he wanted to wear dreads and didn't pick Duke because of that, you're going to insist on K changing that policy too. If you're going to let your program be ran by the reasons 18 year olds throw out there that may or may not even be the real reasons. Where does it end?

Perception is NOT reality. In the end you just have to hire the person you think can best do the job and the chips fall where they may.

We should replace Wojo as the big men coach only if we think somebody can do a better job. And if the perception is wrong, then you go out and try to change the perception, not pander to it.

[dukemsu]

I don't know how often you watch college basketball, but I assume you meant Earl Clark, not Earl Cook. Although he will be a lottery pick, he was actually outplayed by Brian Zoubek in the playoffs as a senior in high school. Regardless of his growth, suitability, and performance at Duke, based upon his high school performance, longtime HS guru and Krzyzewski friend Howard "Garf" Garfinkel infamously felt he would be Duke's best big man since Mike Gminski.

Louisville, which employs Walter McCarty as their big man coach, has 6'9" Clark, a pair of top 20 freshman 6'8" Samuels and 6'11" Jennings as well as an early verbal from potentially the top junior in 6'10" Jeremy Tyler.

Duke had a chance to hire Rosh McLeod, but opted for Nate James. When and if Collins and Wojo get head coaching jobs in the very near future, perhaps Coach Krzyzewski will try to lure McLeod away from Tom Crean.

I watch quite a bit. Way too much if you ask my fiancee. Sorry about the Cook/Clark confusion.

Obviously, Pitino is doing a great job at Louisville and they are getting a ton of kids. Not sure if it's a direct correlation to McCarty, but it probably doesn't hurt. If it's a big man development thing, I don't know of any major Louisville big guys making a big splash in the NBA. Maybe I'm missing someone.

I just think the Wojo thing is a bit overblown, and the stuff about him not being able to coach bigs is your standard negative recruiting tactic that has developed legs. There are very few "Big" coaches. Most coaches were and are guards. The Big Coach bit is a fairly new development. Manning and McCarty are two of a few.

Who's the big man coach at Washington? Is that why they got Brockman? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm genuinely curious. They got Hawes, too.

dukemsu

[_Gary]

And if the perception is wrong, then you go out and try to change the perception, not pander to it.

Much easier said than done. One need look no further than to the "Duke gets all the calls" phenomenon to see how hard it is to change public perception. That mantra has been spouted since at least 2001 (thanks Billy P.) and even after several subpar tourney outings from Duke the hate just keeps on coming, and the mantra continues to be espoused. I utterly disagree with you when you say "Perception is NOT reality". Sorry, but in cases like the one we are discussing now - it is.

[Johnboy]

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.

Dissent. One data point of hearsay doesn't go that far. It may validate the need for further inquiry about Wojo, followed by a PR campaign that kills the perception. Blue Planet - are you hearing me?

[BD80]

I have long been a stanch supporter of Coach K and his ability to assemble a team and a coaching staff, but the persuasive and unassailable facts are what they are.

Wojo and Collins must go - too slow, white and small. They can't recruit the urban ethnic players we need to compete on the national stage.

Coach K should go too.

We need progressive coaches who can bring in the top recruits, like JT III at Georgetown (Greg Monroe), Billy Donovan at Florida (Kenny Boynton), or Billy Gillespie at Kentucky (Patrick Patterson). These recruiting disasters have left us an uncompetitive shell of our former selves while these other programs have steamed on past us.

Of course this has been entirely sarcastic, as the three supposed catastrophic recruiting misses have not prevented Duke from making the sweet 16 nor have they propelled the "winners" even as far as the big dance.

To the extent there has been a perception about our coaching that is negatively affecting our recruiting, I am certain Coach K will take appropriate action. I imagine having Nate and Chris C on the staff will alleviate many concerns expressed here. Since Johnny D left and Wojo and Chris Collins were promoted, does our staff still identify Wojo as the coach responsible for post players?

Has anybody considered that Monroe might just feel stupid for having selected the Hoyas instead of Duke and is looking for an excuse for his poor choice?

[sagegrouse]

I hesitate to post in a thread that I think should be deferred until May, but here goes.....

Most college centers will not play C in the NBA. They will be forwards, including every single Duke A-A in the middle (Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Boozer). Maybe Monroe is an exception, but who knows until we see how he fills out? The selling point at Duke (and just look at the Olympic team when Chris Bosh was on the court) is that all players on the team get to develop really good basketball skills across the board, which increases their marketability in pro hoops. Only a player like Zoubek will become a specialist -- essentially because his ability is so limited.

sagegrouse

[Oriole Way]

But is Nate James actually a better big man coach than Wojo? I would wager that none of us really knows whether or not Wojo is an adequate, poor, good, or great coach of big men (I certainly don't). There's anecdotal evidence both ways - Williams and Boozer showed tremendous improvement over their careers, although the progress was from good to great, rather than from average to great, while Zoubek and Thomas have shown much less improvement (but still improved). Near as I can recall, no former Duke big man has come out and said something to the effect of "Steve Wocjiechowski (there's no possible way I spelled that right) held me back - it wasn't until I left Duke that I learned how to be a good post player."

If the problem is just one of perception, the way to respond is to cure the perception, not react to it. Get our former bigs to talk openly with potential recruits about the level of coaching they got. Have Wojo run through a practice session with the recruit. Etc.

If the perception is accurate, and Wojo is, in fact, not a good big man coach, by all means let's get someone else to take that role. If that person can be Nate James, all the better. But we shouldn't be making personnel changes just to react to outside perception unless those changes are actually going to improve our team.

Neither of us knows for sure. But all I can go on is results. Frankly, I'm just not impressed with the development of our bigs apart from our NBA players. My grandmother could have coached Boozer and Williams and they would have improved both during their time at Duke and after. You may think differently, but I don't see much harm in shifting responsibility from a coach who played as a guard to a coach who played as a forward/wing and exhibited some of the skills big men utilize when he was a player himself.

When it comes to ACC players, recruiting is in many ways just as important as development. We need to get these kids on campus before worrying if Nate James would be more qualified than Wojo to be the big man coach (which, for the record, I think he would do an adequate job considering Wojo's credentials weren't ideal for the position to begin with either). Let's assume Nate James would be an inferior big man coach to Wojo, but that we get a recruit like Monroe or Patterson because having James as the bigs coach doesn't discourage them from committing. I'll take that trade off, because I have much more confidence in Coach K to develop those players than anyone who could possibly be our big man coach anyway.

The key issue for me here is that it is unacceptable to lose a recruit because a perception exists that someone who will be coaching them will not help them develop, as wrong as that recruit may be. If an average poster like me can look at Wojo and think "How is a tiny, defensive-minded point guard qualified to coach big men?", and an elite big man recruit thinks the same thing, then there's a serious problem which needs to be rectified.

I once had a chemistry teacher in high school. She was terrible. After I graduated, I found out she got her Masters in Education, and never received a degree of any sort in the Sciences, let alone Chemistry. I was not happy that my teacher was not specialized in what she taught me, even though she may have been been qualified as an instructor in a general sense. Now, I am not saying that Wojo is a bad bigs coach, so please don't misunderstand me. But there are similarities in the two situations. If, as an incoming junior chemistry student, I had the choice between her and another professor who received a degree in Natural Sciences, why would I want to pick the professor who wasn't well-versed in Chemistry? I am aware that Monroe wound up picking a school where his bigs coaches were guards. But I can understand why he would look at Wojo's resume and not want to be coached by him.

[gotham devil]

I watch quite a bit. Way too much if you ask my fiancee. Sorry about the Cook/Clark confusion.

Obviously, Pitino is doing a great job at Louisville and they are getting a ton of kids. Not sure if it's a direct correlation to McCarty, but it probably doesn't hurt. If it's a big man development thing, I don't know of any major Louisville big guys making a big splash in the NBA. Maybe I'm missing someone.

I just think the Wojo thing is a bit overblown, and the stuff about him not being able to coach bigs is your standard negative recruiting tactic that has developed legs. There are very few "Big" coaches. Most coaches were and are guards. The Big Coach bit is a fairly new development. Manning and McCarty are two of a few.

Who's the big man coach at Washington? Is that why they got Brockman? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm genuinely curious. They got Hawes, too.

dukemsu

1) Your fiance needs to prioritize.
2) God, we could have used Brockman.
It was widely circulated in recruiting circles that whichever program landed Brockman would also be the beneficiary of his close friend and future lottery pick Hawes. So Hawes, a dyed-in-the-wool Republican llike Coach K, was unfortunately a fait accompli. Many have written that Brockman wanted to play close to his hs girlfriend, family and friends. His father indicated earlier this month that Jon picked UW over Duke not only for the proximity, but also because of Romar.
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2009/m...an-a-chip-off/

3) There are a few other notable big men coaches like Donny Daniels at UCLA, Sean Kearney at Notre Dame, and Rob Murphy at Syracuse. UConn has had built an excellent reputation at developing big men, but they apparently don't use a single coach approach.

[-jk]

Perhaps (and why the hell am I posting now when we have business in Boston that should take precedence?) - just perhaps - Coach prefers players who care more about reality than perception.

And the reality of K's record is second to, well, maybe one.

-jk

[Ian]

Much easier said than done. One need look no further than to the "Duke gets all the calls" phenomenon to see how hard it is to change public perception. That mantra has been spouted since at least 2001 (thanks Billy P.) and even after several subpar tourney outings from Duke the hate just keeps on coming, and the mantra continues to be espoused. I utterly disagree with you when you say "Perception is NOT reality". Sorry, but in cases like the one we are discussing now - it is.

You just contradicted yourself.

If perception IS reality. Then the public perception that "Duke get all the calls" would mean that Duke, indeed, gets all the calls.

The only reason to fight against it is because perception is actually NOT reality, and therefore, when perceptions about Duke is wrong, it's up to the program and the Duke fans to change it to conform them to reality.

Is is easy? Of course not. So what, few things in life are.

[SoCalDukeFan]

You are a recruiter of Someother U. You and Duke are pursuing a big man. You tell the kid that Wojo is not a good big man coach, has the wrong experience etc. You then say that Brian Zoubek was a McD AA who has not panned out, that Eric Boateng transferred, that Micheal Thompson transferred.

If Wojo did a great job with Williams and Boozer, then I would love to hear them say it. He may have. Actually I am pretty sure that Coach K thinks Wojo is doing a great job otherwise he would make changes.

SoCal

[Ian]

Personally. I think even Zoubek and Thomas have gotten a lot better since they have gotten here.

And to dismiss Boozer and Shelden's success as players who "my grandmother could have coached" is ridiculous.

If that's the case, then coaching doesn't matter, talent is all that matters, then the only reason Greg Monroe is saying the things he is saying is because he isn't as good as Boozer and Shelden any way. That unlike those two, he actually needs coaching help.

So why are we worried about losing him anyway, let's just concentrate on recruiting the real blue chips who can be good without coaching.

So either you accept Boozer and Shelden as evidence of successful big men coaching by the staff, or you accept that coaching doesn't matter, in which case it doesn't really matter who we hire as the big men coach, so why complain about Wojo?