Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Florida and Montana

    Lightbulb Forbes: Duke Basketball Value Falls--Expenses Rise to Highest in College Basketball

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/16/mos...inal-four.html

    Duke basketball expenses rose 88% to 15 million dollars, which is 5.7 million dollars higher than any team in college basketball.

    Interesting article includes the top valued schools and their gross and operating incomes.

    Do we need an MBA handling expenses?

    Best--Blueprofessor

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Would this be due to the new practice facility that was recently completed?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Forbes - covering college basketball while Rome burns. Have they nothing better to cover on the financial front?

  4. #4

    This might be wortha separate thread but..

    the numbers raise the question.. With the amount of money they generate for leagues, schools and coaches, shouldn't college players, especially those that don't end up playing professionally be entitled to some form of pension?

    i know the argument is that they get a free education, but i would make two points: the schedule for a div 1 athlete (20 hrs per week is the official time commitment, but i am guessing actual time spent is much higher) means that the education they get is not akin to that of a normal student. even if it were equivalent, the value they create for these programs and via the sneaker contracts that pay the coaches seems to far outweigh what they receive in most cases.

    i am thinking about a player like McClure who has provided a great benefit to Duke and the league but who is never going to see the huge sums that others will.. shouldn't he get something for the value he has helped create?

    if we are generating 15mm a year, we could tak 2% and set aside for a fund to aid former players who are looking for graduate educations etc. could help distinguish us in recruiting as well (esp in a world where Memphis is flying its team on private Fedex jets.. is that true?), though i haven't analyzed the ethics of it at all

    thoughts?
    Last edited by dgoore97; 03-17-2009 at 11:18 AM. Reason: addition

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Florida and Montana

    Lightbulb Operating Income= Total Revenues Less Operating Expenses

    Quote Originally Posted by 94duke View Post
    Would this be due to the new practice facility that was recently completed?
    Usually, a new structure ,which the business occupies(like a practice facility or office), is capitalized (placed as an asset on the balance sheet) and then depreciated annually over its life expectancy.
    So, only a small percentage of the facility's cost would be subtracted annually as depreciation from revenue as an operating expense.Normally.

    Best --Blueprof

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    it's more likely the number jumped because of football expenditures with the new coaching staff/regime
    Duke '96
    Cary, NC

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Los Alamos, New Mexico
    Isn't the basketball program becoming self-sufficient and financially independent? I think a lot of former players have donated to an endowment meant on making the program run on its own.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    Usually, a new structure ,which the business occupies(like a practice facility or office), is capitalized (placed as an asset on the balance sheet) and then depreciated annually over its life expectancy.
    So, only a small percentage of the facility's cost would be subtracted annually as depreciation from revenue as an operating expense.Normally.

    Best --Blueprof
    Thanks!

  9. #9
    Not bad for a small private school with a small stadium where students get in for "free" and relatively small alumni base. Not to mention Duke is located in a region full of UNC grads and fans.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dgoore97 View Post
    the numbers raise the question.. With the amount of money they generate for leagues, schools and coaches, shouldn't college players, especially those that don't end up playing professionally be entitled to some form of pension?

    i know the argument is that they get a free education, but i would make two points: the schedule for a div 1 athlete (20 hrs per week is the official time commitment, but i am guessing actual time spent is much higher) means that the education they get is not akin to that of a normal student. even if it were equivalent, the value they create for these programs and via the sneaker contracts that pay the coaches seems to far outweigh what they receive in most cases.

    i am thinking about a player like McClure who has provided a great benefit to Duke and the league but who is never going to see the huge sums that others will.. shouldn't he get something for the value he has helped create?

    if we are generating 15mm a year, we could tak 2% and set aside for a fund to aid former players who are looking for graduate educations etc. could help distinguish us in recruiting as well (esp in a world where Memphis is flying its team on private Fedex jets.. is that true?), though i haven't analyzed the ethics of it at all

    thoughts?

    Your idea is intriguing. I've never liked the idea of "paying" players (though I do understand the arguments). However, the idea of a fund to pay for graduate education keeps more in line with the idea of scholar-athlete.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Florida and Montana

    Lightbulb Forbes speaks of basketball revenue and basketball expenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jjasper0729 View Post
    it's more likely the number jumped because of football expenditures with the new coaching staff/regime
    See: http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/16/mos...inal-four.html

    The profit is extremely small compared to other top programs discussed.

    Best--Blueprof

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Well, apparently we also make the most money, so we can afford it.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  13. #13
    You guys are in fantasy land.

    You do know that most athletic programs are actually in the red, right? So where is this money going to come from to fund these things.

    The profits from men's basketball and football are already being used up to fund the non-revenue sports programs.

    The only way to do this "fairly", i.e., the people who generate the revenue gets the compensation. Is to cancel most if not all the women's athletic programs, and most if not all of the men's programs besides basketball and football.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia

    As you requested, here are a few thoughts . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by dgoore97 View Post
    i am thinking about a player like McClure who has provided a great benefit to Duke and the league but who is never going to see the huge sums that others will.. shouldn't he get something for the value he has helped create?
    I am a huge Dave McClure fan and deeply appreciate his significance to recent Duke teams (including 2008 - 2009); I sincerely respect his work ethic, talents and selflessness. I would suggest, however, that five years of free Duke education is something of real value, a highly credible foundation for the remainder of his life (both personally and professionally). As we are all aware, MANY truly outstanding high school seniors – with gifts every bit as valuable and rare as Dave’s – would give a lot just to be admitted to Duke, not to mention a “free ride'" throughout undergraduate school.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgoore97 View Post
    if we are generating 15mm a year, we could take 2% and set aside for a fund to aid former players who are looking for graduate educations etc.
    I am not sure this would comply with NCAA regulations; after all, these are “student athletes” (in all sports and in every university/college), not “semi-professionals." Even if your plan were to meets NCAA strictures, how would you deal with the equally hard-working and beneficial athletes from the non-revenue sports or from Divisions II and III? Would you created a two-tier varsity athletic program at Duke (and presumably at other institutions), one with enhanced benefits for football and basketball, with a separate and less advantageous paradigm for the vast majority of student athletes? Further, would your proposal comply with Title Nine statutes for female student athletes?

    In sum, I understand the motives behind your suggestion, but I am not sure it is legal, practical or wise.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Florida and Montana

    Lightbulb While Duke grads rake in the dough...

    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    Well, apparently we also make the most money, so we can afford it.
    Duke grads,yes ,but not the basketball team.

    Duke basketball had an operating income of $6.6 million.
    Louisville led with 16.6 million ,followed by UNC at 16.4 million.
    Some others: Indiana--16.1 million; Arizona, 12 million;Kansas,12.9 million; Illinois,12.8 million; and, Maryland,10.8 million.

    "Operating expenses are comprised primarily of coaches' compensation,travel expenses,and gameday costs."

    Duke's operating expenses were up 88% from the prior year and are $5.7 million higher than any team in college basketball, thereby leading to a precipitous drop in operating income.

    Best--Blueprof

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    Duke's operating expenses were up 88% from the prior year and are $5.7 million higher than any team in college basketball, thereby leading to a precipitous drop in operating income.
    I don't see why an increase in expenses would lead to a drop in income. I assume "operating income" here is simply revenue. Net out the increased expenses from that and, of course, your bottom line profit would drop, not the gross inflow of money.

    Anyway, I think the more salient point here is the 88% operating expense increase year-over-year. This almost has to be a one time expense of some sort. As others have suggested, it's possible the university doesn't amortize the new practice facility using traditional accounting, perhaps due to unique tax treatment. It could be some other large expenditure - what's K's contract status? Maybe there was some deferred bonus payment or something. Regardless, unless there's reason to believe the cost of basically every day to day operating part of the program, from cooling Cameron (wink, wink) to staffing security to travel almost doubled in '08 over '07, I think this is much ado about nothing and we'll be back towards the most profitable overall next year.

    If we were towards the very top of the list of most profitable last year (which I think the article mentioned as having been the case), and our revenues are dwarfed by UNC and Louisville, then it stands to reason we were nowhere near the "most expensive to run" program in the past.

    As someone else mentioned, for any program that sells (I would think) less than 120,000 game tickets in an entire season to even be in the conversation speaks well of its brand. I have to imagine our national merchandise sales are at or close to the top. No one else has a brand that extends all that far beyond the borders of the state in which the school is located.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Florida and Montana

    Lightbulb No,operating income, as used in the article, means operating profit....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    I don't see why an increase in expenses would lead to a drop in income. I assume "operating income" here is simply revenue. Net out the increased expenses from that and, of course, your bottom line profit would drop, not the gross inflow of money.
    ...so, an increase in operating expense ( of which Duke experienced an 88% increase to a figure $5.7 million higher than any other team in college basketball),most definitely decreases operating income or operating profit.
    Revenue refers to gross income,not operating income.

    Best--Blueprof

  18. #18

    88%

    I have been out of the accounting field for decades, but how can you have an 88% increase in "Operating expenses [that] are composed primarily of coaches' compensation, travel expenses and game day costs"? Travel expenses and game day costs should not have increased much, so it must be C-Well's salary.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The City of Brotherly Love
    I would take this Forbes information with a grain of salt. There is a lot of estimation involved and the piecing together of incomplete information from different sources. There is no rational reason for an 88% increase in the ongoing cost of operating the basketball program. There must be non recurring item(s) affecting the current numbers. For example, while Blue Professor is largely correct about depreciating the investment of the new practice facility, every large capital project has a percentage of the cost that should be expensed as incurred.

    And what's the value of the exercise to begin with? What does it mean? As others have alluded to, not much. The university can't monitize the implicit value of the basketball program. It's not manged for growth per se. And comparing the economics of basketball between medium sized private universities to very large public universities is meaningless

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    I have been out of the accounting field for decades, but how can you have an 88% increase in "Operating expenses [that] are composed primarily of coaches' compensation, travel expenses and game day costs"? Travel expenses and game day costs should not have increased much, so it must be C-Well's salary.
    Johnny D must have cashed out a lot of unused vacation time.

Similar Threads

  1. Most Surprising Team In College Basketball
    By DukieBoy in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-18-2009, 10:35 AM
  2. The UN of College Basketball
    By gotham devil in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-12-2008, 06:53 PM
  3. College Basketball Game
    By pless55 in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-28-2008, 11:21 AM
  4. College Basketball Invitational Tournament
    By BCGroup in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-18-2008, 03:51 PM
  5. Does every Week in college basketball have a name?
    By hurleyfor3 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-06-2008, 12:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •