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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrain View Post
    St. Mary's defeated then #23 ranked Utah State
    OK, so they beat a team that earned an 11 seed. That's not bad. Has anyone provided the side-by-side computer numbers on St. Mary's vs. Arizona?

    For what it's worth, St. Mary's isn't even a 1 seed in the NIT

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3983521

  2. #82
    Does anybody really care?

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    To clarify, I was referring to Vitale's outrage. I didn't see the campaigning but will take your word for it. It's not appropriate for those guys to try to influence the committee unduly.
    Gotcha. I see where you guys are coming from too, some of V's comments were just stupid and childish and certainly didn't help his cause.

    When Jay Bilas says that major teams are treated unfairly compared to mid-majors - well, that's a statement that he deserves to be called out on because it's simply an absolutely stupid and laughable statement to the nth degree. But you're right, you can call it out without the "you went to Duke" type comments.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Does anybody really care?
    Seconded. Why is everybody in such a lather over this? I would imagine DV and Jay aren't. It all makes for mildly entertaining tv, and I stress the mildly.

    Let's get ready to rumble...put this "baby" to bed.

  5. #85
    Join Date
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    North Florida & Bozeman, Montana

    Talking Why? Nerves.

    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Seconded. Why is everybody in such a lather over this? I would imagine DV and Jay aren't. It all makes for mildly entertaining tv, and I stress the mildly.

    Let's get ready to rumble...put this "baby" to bed.
    The shakes before the battle!

    Best--Blueprof

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    If Bob Knight is inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.
    Excellent point. I had somehow (miraculously) forgotten about that.

  7. #87

    No Big Deal

    I saw the "argument." Look, these shows usually like a little back and forth. If anything, this show is usually too bland with everyone agreeing on everything. So Jay and Dick went at it a bit. It was nothing. I'm sure they don't think anything of it. Why should we?

    And as for the argument, I think both had reasonable points. Look if there hadn't been 3 or more tourney upsets, with unexpected teams taking up those at large bids, St. Mary's would have been in. Arguing fiercely over the very last team cut really doesn't make much sense, does it? It's just academic and for show. I kind of enjoyed it.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Does anybody really care?
    Unfortunately, yes. Dick Vitale was regurgitating his comments on Mike & Mike this morning, as if he's been assigned to lobby for mid-major schools. He's sort of the anti-Billy Packer in this regard, carrying the banner for the opposite cause, but just as much a drag on the real proceedings.

    But here's the problem. I think spending most of Selection Sunday arguing about snubs is a massive waste of time. You devote a segment to the snubs, throw up a few graphics, and then let it go. Any criticism is better spent on how teams were seeded, and how the Committee's standards are seemingly random. And then the meat of the discussion should discuss actual matchups, possible sleepers, and pundit picks.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Jay Bilas reads and posts on this board. If you disagree with him, say so - but don't type anything you would not actually say to the man's face. Internet courage is amusing.
    I SERIOUSLY doubt that Jay has spent much time the last couple of weeks reading these boards. Jay has been doing game broadcasts in addition to "College Gameday" and "College Basketball Report" shows, and "interview" spots on Sportscenter, First and Ten, Mike & Mike, PTI and others. Jay also puts a lot of time into his preparation - I would argue he is the best prepared analyst in the business.

    ESPN has been riding its college analysts really hard. Didn't Jay do the game broadcasts for Big East tourney that had the 6 OT game as the FOURTH game of the day that ran past 1:00 AM? He then had to do the College Basketball report AFTER that and then did the morning show appearances the next day. Poor Doug Gottlieb slept in the studio that night to host the morning Mike & Mike a few hours after signing off.

    I think the exhaustion had a bit to do with Jay's reaction to hearing Dickie V's rather tired argument that mid-majors can't get games. It is true that they can't get good HOME games, and that it isn't fair. It is more profitable to beat a bad team at home, so mid-major AD's are not that thrilled to pay for travel expenses instead of selling tickets and concessions and keeping the student athletes in school.

    Vitale couldn't get past the unfairness of the commercial reality and missed Jay's basic point: knowing the reality of scheduling, St Mary's could have scheduled more difficult games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    ...
    I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.
    I didn't see the reference, but would suggest that Jay was actually being somewhat self-effacing, suggesting that he was a Ivy league caliber player when he was actually an important part of a very good team on a national level. He was a major recruit out of high school. The comparisons to Greg Newton are ludicrous, particularly as little as Jay touched the ball with Alarie and Dawkins on the team.

  10. #90
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    For a moment I thought I was watching a political talk show where that kind of heated exchange goes on all the time. I think Vitale took offense when Bilas replied 'that was 30 years ago" to Vitale's point that he [Vitale] never was able to schedule the majors. Anyway, this is a point the Vitale makes every year and I think that Bilas was right that the mid-majors can schedule the power conference teams easily today. Just ask Davidson. Vitale's counterpoint is that while they can schedule them the power conference team will only play on its home court. And Bilas' reply to that is so what?

  11. #91
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    Lightbulb Measurements and comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    The comparisons to Greg Newton are ludicrous, particularly as little as Jay touched the ball with Alarie and Dawkins on the team.
    While you may disagree, production per minute or game is a valid measure of worth and is a mighty fine gauge of the quality of a person's play,especially since there are only 5 players on a team.
    And, it is what you do in college,not high school, that is the measure of value to a college team.
    In college,whether or not you want to accept the official records,the taller Newton's stats were as good (and much better in some athletic measurements like steals,assists, rebounds, and blocks ) as Jay's.That does not diminish Bilas's talent as an analyst--it simply places in context his athletic performance on the court compared to Newton's.

    And the fact that Jay took a shot every 4 minutes along with 511 foul shots(many for shots attempted but not included in the one per 4 minutes)indicates that he was indeed touching the ball a good deal.

    I do admire your taking the time to interpret Jay's strong remarks (about easily being the POY in the Ivy League) and to suggest that fatigue was the cause of his treatment of the considerably older Vitale.You must be a very close and devoted friend.
    Jay is a very clever and careful fellow whose commentary usually adds value.

    Perhaps we can all agree that we hope he will be as dead wrong about Duke's play in the tourney as he has about his picks in Duke's games this season.

    Best--Blueprof

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by tendev View Post
    Vitale's counterpoint is that while they can schedule them the power conference team will only play on its home court. And Bilas' reply to that is so what?
    And Bilas' reply doesn't work, because this is the root of the issue... The power conferences will only play the small conferences under favorable circumstances, where they have higher odds of winning, so the teams from smaller conference, if they want to enhance the SOS ratings, have a high probability of saddling themselves with additional losses... They can't win for trying either way--that's the point! I schedule tough teams and lose, but have high SOS--tough, I don't get an at-large because I'm from a small conference... I don't schedule a lot of tough teams and win most of my games with low SOS--tough again, I don't get an at-large... Bilas' argument blows in the era of the 64-team tournament... If you think Arizona deserves to be in ahead of Saint Mary's, then I've got a bridge to sell ya...

  13. #93
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    Louisville, KY

    Bilas is right

    The context of Bilas' argument is this: the NCAA is already the most open to the mid and low major through all of the automatic bids. What we're talking about are teams that have an argument about being in the tournament, but failed to win their respective conference tournaments. The 64 team field already invites many teams that are not the best in the land through the automatic bids. What we're talking about is a handful of teams who are good, but fail to win the automatic bid.

    Bilas is saying: you want to be in the tournament. Here's what you do. You schedule high major schools on their turf. Win or at least play them tough. Then try to win your conference. If you get the auto bid, then you're in. But if you lose that auto bid, you better have a compelling backup argument. But there are already a bunch of schools like you that made the tournament.

    If the field was just the best 64, there wouldn't be any more non-BCS conference schools in the field.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    And Bilas' reply doesn't work, because this is the root of the issue... The power conferences will only play the small conferences under favorable circumstances, where they have higher odds of winning, so the teams from smaller conference, if they want to enhance the SOS ratings, have a high probability of saddling themselves with additional losses... They can't win for trying either way--that's the point! I schedule tough teams and lose, but have high SOS--tough, I don't get an at-large because I'm from a small conference... I don't schedule a lot of tough teams and win most of my games with low SOS--tough again, I don't get an at-large... Bilas' argument blows in the era of the 64-team tournament... If you think Arizona deserves to be in ahead of Saint Mary's, then I've got a bridge to sell ya...
    This is complete poppycock. If you are a mid-major and want to play in the NCAAT, you either have to (1) win your conference tournament (eg, Siena); (2) win most your conference games and don't embarrass yourself in your conference tournament (eg, Butler and not Creighton) or (3) win most of your conference games and take out a BCS school or 2 in your OOC schedule and not worry about your conference tournament (eg, Gonzaga or Dayton). If you don't want to play a mediocre or good BCS school on its home court, then here are plenty of garbage tournaments in November and December that you can get them on neutral courts. Remember Southern Illinois this year at MSG? Probably not, but it had its shot at Duke on a neutral court this year (and lost). Dayton, Gonzaga, Tulsa, Memphis and Davidson all got solid games against BCS schools this way. St Mary's did not so stop feeling sorry for them.

    You make it sound like this is so horrible. Cleveland St won AT Syracuse, VMI won AT Kentucky and Morgan St won AT Maryland so it's not like this is some impossible feat we are talking about here.

    A lot of this whining could be eliminated if the lower conferences just sent their regular season champions to the NCAAT rather than the winner of a conference tournament. Based on what I saw the past 2 weeks, a lot of these tournaments are very poorly attended and often don't send the most deserving team (eg, Davidson). This wouldn't have helped St Mary's this year.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    Cleveland St won AT Syracuse
    Gotta love the Cleveland State Viking! Those guys are ballers, should be fun to watch that game against wfu. At least for a few minutes.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    In 2006 minutes, Newton had 7.6 ppg at 56.9%; 61 % from line;5.1 rpg ; 48 assists;118 TOs; 233 fouls;68 steals; and 101 blocks.

    In 2864 minutes,Bilas had 8.4 ppg at 55.7%; 65% from line;5.4 rpg;56 assists; 117 TOs; 379 fouls; 41 steals;and 23 blocks.
    So, Jay had 858 more minutes ( 42% of Newton's total minutes) and had virtually the same number of assists, 146 more fouls, 27 less steals,and 23% of Newton's blocks.
    In terms of play per minutes, Jay had an assist every 51 minutes, a foul every 7.5 minutes, a steal every 70 minutes,and a block every 124 minutes.

    Newton had a rebound every 3.65 minutes and Jay had a rebound every 4.2 minutes.

    Best--Blueprof
    Quote Originally Posted by blueprofessor View Post
    While you may disagree, production per minute or game is a valid measure of worth and is a mighty fine gauge of the quality of a person's play,especially since there are only 5 players on a team.
    ...

    Perhaps we can all agree that we hope he will be as dead wrong about Duke's play in the tourney as he has about his picks in Duke's games this season.

    Best--Blueprof
    I am certain that virtually every person associated with the Blue Devils basketball team would disagree that the numbers reflect the true value of a player such as Bilas. He was an undersized center that did many things that didn't make onto a stat sheet except in the win column.

    Bilas played on GREAT teams, improving from 11-17 their freshman year to 24-10, then 23-8, and finally 37-3 and a loss in the '86 championship game. Bilas played with Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson, Amaker, and King. Jay suffered an injury in 1986 and lost his starting job to some freshman named Ferry.

    Newton played little his first 2 years when the teams went 28-6 (NCAA final game) and 13-18. Newt played most on the 18-13 team with Capel, Collins, Price, and young Wojo and Domzalski. He played less on the 24-9 team the next year when Langdon came back and McLeod and Carrawell climbed onboard.

    I don't think the raw numbers reflect Bilas' "worth" as a basketball player, particularly compared to Greg Newton (who admittedly still did not receive the recognition he deserved for his contributions). Else, Billy King was of little "worth": In 2823 minutes, King had 4.5 ppg at 50.4%; 48% from line; 2.9 rpg; 251 assists; 180 TOs; 292 fouls; 140 steals; and 45 blocks. Billy disproves your thesis that numerical production per minute gauges the quality of play. Jay's qualities were similarly unquantifiable.

    We can definitely agree that we hope Jay's predictions are wrong. I don't blame him for picking unc to win it all. If I could be objective, I might pick them as well. I don't think I can forgive Jay for picking Jay Wright's Villanova team to beat us in the round of 16. Maybe it is a Jay thing.

  17. #97
    Well if you read the board before watching the clip you were probably disappointed. Fortunately, I saw it live.

    The way I would have described it was uncomfortable. It rose a little above debate to a flat-out argument. And call me crazy, but I thought BOTH came across a little bad. Jay should have tried to just laugh it off. Actually, he might have tried, but just didn't quite pass it off. He probably wouldn't have looked smug if he wasn't from Duke, but he started to just disregard Vitale and that comes across as smug and disrespectful when everyone knows you're from Duke (especially when recently reminded). He also seemed a little too irritated at being called "wrong". Don't think we've seen Jay like that before, at least I haven't.

    As someone else said, Vitale mostly looked childish. It wasn't too far from what you might expect from him though. For whatever reason both seemed to take it personally, like one was called "stupid" and the other "wrong" and for both it was the worst you could say about them.

    I did just rewatch it, and there was definitely some history coming in. You hear Bilas start to laugh on his mic while Vitale is first making his point, before Jay's even had his turn, and you can just tell they've already been arguing, if not already irritated with each other.

    I'd love to know what Digger was doing with the pointing gesture; it was pretty demonstrative and Jay just looks past it or ignores it (perhaps he's simply aware he's still on camera while Digger is not), or, Digger was pointing at someone off camera? I can't tell if he's mocking Vitale or telling Jay he put the hammer down, or some other inside joke or whatever altogether, but he seems to feel pretty strongly about it whatever it is.

  18. #98
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    Lightbulb Thanks for your post....

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I am certain that virtually every person associated with the Blue Devils basketball team would disagree that the numbers reflect the true value of a player such as Bilas. He was an undersized center that did many things that didn't make onto a stat sheet except in the win column.

    Bilas played on GREAT teams, improving from 11-17 their freshman year to 24-10, then 23-8, and finally 37-3 and a loss in the '86 championship game. Bilas played with Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson, Amaker, and King. Jay suffered an injury in 1986 and lost his starting job to some freshman named Ferry.

    Newton played little his first 2 years when the teams went 28-6 (NCAA final game) and 13-18. Newt played most on the 18-13 team with Capel, Collins, Price, and young Wojo and Domzalski. He played less on the 24-9 team the next year when Langdon came back and McLeod and Carrawell climbed onboard.

    I don't think the raw numbers reflect Bilas' "worth" as a basketball player, particularly compared to Greg Newton (who admittedly still did not receive the recognition he deserved for his contributions). Else, Billy King was of little "worth": In 2823 minutes, King had 4.5 ppg at 50.4%; 48% from line; 2.9 rpg; 251 assists; 180 TOs; 292 fouls; 140 steals; and 45 blocks. Billy disproves your thesis that numerical production per minute gauges the quality of play. Jay's qualities were similarly unquantifiable.

    We can definitely agree that we hope Jay's predictions are wrong. I don't blame him for picking unc to win it all. If I could be objective, I might pick them as well. I don't think I can forgive Jay for picking Jay Wright's Villanova team to beat us in the round of 16. Maybe it is a Jay thing.
    ...I enjoyed your comments.What the numbers (and my memory) certainly do tell is that Jay was very limited, unathletic, and not well-skilled (assisists, blocks, and steals).He was 6'8" but very bulky, similar to a number of centers today.Bilas was all we had until a freshman name Ferry appeared Bilas's senior year.

    King shot half as much as Bilas and took half as many foul shots (indicating he was not shooting much beyond his official attempts).He was a defensive stopper and was NDPOY. His assists (251) and steals(140),in a few minutes less than Jay's career minutes,were excellent and indicated a good skill level. The fact that he averaged 2 rebounds per game less than Jay also gauges his good play beyond being the NDPOY.King had other statistics that measure his quality:blocked shots on the perimeter and opposing players' poor shooting percentages when he guarded them---as David Rivers' 3/17 and Mark Macon's 6/29.
    King's numbers most definitely reflect his value and proved his worth as a defensive stopper who could also provide rebounds,steals, assists,good % shooting, and blocks while playing the other team's top offensive perimeter threat.
    While Newton and Bilas played the same position, King did not.

    Best--Blueprof

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