Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale Argue

[JBDuke]

Vitale made a better argument on SC today. He said Patty Mills is back? Is that correct? They only lost 2 games with Mills, then went 6-4 without him, costing them the bid. If he is back, I believe they deserve a bid given how good they were with him. Arizona lost 13 and the Pac 10 isn't all that great.

Mills is back, but he played horribly in the WCC tourney, and St. Mary's made an early exit. He did play better in the "extra" game that St. Mary's added post-tourney, but the committee could have legitimate doubts about his ability to return to the team and return them to their previous level of performance.

[Highlander]

his comment to Dick about 'Maybe 30 years ago, mid majors couldn't schedule games against the big guys, but they can today' was a bit harsh, and probably caused Dick to get defensive and retort with the 'I didn't go to Duke' comment. Both were a bit petty, and really unnecessary IMO.

Jay and Dick both had reasonable arguments. When they started making petty cracks at each other rather than make their argument is when it became unnecessary in my mind.

[The Gordog]

his comment to Dick about 'Maybe 30 years ago, mid majors couldn't schedule games against the big guys, but they can today' was a bit harsh, and probably caused Dick to get defensive and retort with the 'I didn't go to Duke' comment. Both were a bit petty, and really unnecessary IMO.

Jay and Dick both had reasonable arguments. When they started making petty cracks at each other rather than make their argument is when it became unnecessary in my mind.

Agreed. Jay also said, "You're wrong!" a couple of times. Granted Dick wouldn't stop talking and I'm sure thatwas frustrating, but I think it comes across as smug. Sadly, I'm a person who says that on occasision as well, and my mild-mannered wife has told me it undermines my persuasiveness and comes across as smug.

[weezie]

I think that by the time the argument took place, just about everybody on that network was about to collapse from the strain of studying "bracketology."
Today they are all likely on iv fluids and resting with towels draped over their foreheads.
Enough already.

[DBFAN]

My Problem with Jay on this argument is he is making a case for St. Mary's not getting in because of the hurt player..........What, are you kidding me? Then how come teams like UCON and UNC did not get lower seeds with Dyson being done for the year, and Lawson having so many questions surrounding him and his toe. There is no way Arizona belongs in this tournament, VT 7-9 record in the toughest conference is a lot better that 9-9 in a very weak conf. like the Pac-10. I just feel like Jay is trying to defend something that is not Defensible, 28-6 should get you in, even if your are from BFE Community college. I mean I don't really care, because having lesser opponents in the dance, only benefits us on our road to the championship!

[dgoore97]

finally saw this argument. doesn't seem that bad to me. i don't think anyone was particularly rude and i don't have a problem with someone telling someone else they're wrong. it seemed like they were having a genuine disagreement. i think this discussion was vastly preferable to watching analysts tiptoe around each other with nobody wanting to disagree with anyone else, which seems to happen in the majority of these broadcasts.

[jdj4duke]

Well at least that will be the end of Vitale fawning over Duke (one can hope). We may be seeing the beginning of the end of Dickie's endless screentime. There was nothing wrong, rude, or off-base from Bilas, especially considering that Vitale was screeching like a weedeater. And the Duke comment was stupid. Regardless of undergraduate pedigree (but I like to think it means something) Bilas' degree of knowledge and analysis are embarrassing to Vitale's. On that there really is no argument.

I do take comfort in the fact that the yammering about "who got left out" ends pretty much by 8:00 pm on selection Sunday. It's a waste of time and is interesting for the 30 seconds it takes to hear mostly about teams we have, for the most part, never seen.

[killerleft]

Dickie V was completely right in this one. To be completely honest, I was a little bit embarrassed to call Bilas a Duke alum during those few minutes.

Sorry, Wander. Picked your post out because it happened to crystallize a point of view. After seeing the video finally, I can see Dick's point. Which is to give more of the little fellas a spot in the tourney field. Beyond that, he loses me. I doubt that St. Mary's is better than Arizona. Certainly they could beat them on a given night.

But where I really lose you and others is the thought that Jay Bilas misbehaved in some way. I didn't find him smug and I didn't think he was condescending to Dickie V. He represented all those who disagree with the inclusion of less qualified teams simply because they did well on a smaller stage.

These mid-majors CHOOSE to be considered at the same level as the big boys. Then they (or Dickie V. or another talking head) forget what they chose to do. Why should they be surprised when a committee of people who take their job seriously hold them to the same standard as the big boys? There are DIFFERENT LEVELS in which they can compete!

And then the little guys make the champion of their league the one that WON their conference tournament. Fine. But they are throwing the dice and chancing that their best teams might not be invited to the dance.

My conclusion? Don't run with the big dogs if you don't play against them. And I still don't see how Jay Bilas came off badly, though. He tried to reason with Dickie V, but Dickie was ranting and didn't want to hear.

[jjasper0729]

i think it came out when Jay said this should be a meritocracy and DV said he wanted to be fair.

unfortunately, (this may be un-pc, but i don't really care) the two aren't always the same thing (usually aren't ever)

[jlear]

I just watched the video, I was ready for the fireworks and then nothing. This was a big so what for me.

[Wander]

Killerleft, my issue is actually more with his entire performance recently, not just the Dickie V argument.

I don't know if you watched Gameday yesterday before the Duke game, but it was disgusting. The guys were essentially opening cheering for Arizona for a full half hour. Now, I'm actually fine with putting Arizona in the field over Creighton, but the discussion they had was absolutely nowhere close to fair or reasonable. Just continuous cheering for Arizona and trash talking of Creighton, over and over and over. They had Arizona's coach on to state his case - do you think they invited Creighton's on the show as well? (to his credit, UA's coach was very rational). I'm 95% sure I even caught a part where one of the guys blatantly got one of Creighton's statistics wrong (in a direction that made Creighton look worse), and it was never corrected. It was completely embarrassing.

I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.

[TheTrain]

Dickie V was dead on here siding with St. Mary's versus Arizona

Bottom line: Arizona won 2 true road games all year at Oregon and at Oregon State, the PAC-10 is way down this year and .500 in the Pac-10 this year is lame, 13 losses is poor as well

Please don't give me the line that mid-majors can schedule who they want...that is garbage....Davidson got a lot of games this year because ESPN wanted to showcase Curry thinking it would bring increased ratings...Gonzaga has the same ratings appeal because of their post-season history...for those mid-moajors that don't have ratings appeal, it is nearly impossible to get on the schedule...most teams (not all but most) in the power conferences run from playing such teams

Maybe instead of boring us with yet another Big 10/ACC snoozefest, we can have David versus Goliath showdowns...have 8 high profile teams go on the road for nationally televised games against mid-majors. I am sure that ESPN could market the heck out of it.

[dukie8]

Dickie V was dead on here siding with St. Mary's versus Arizona

Bottom line: Arizona won 2 true road games all year at Oregon and at Oregon State, the PAC-10 is way down this year and .500 in the Pac-10 this year is lame, 13 losses is poor as well

Please don't give me the line that mid-majors can schedule who they want...that is garbage....Davidson got a lot of games this year because ESPN wanted to showcase Curry thinking it would bring increased ratings...Gonzaga has the same ratings appeal because of their post-season history...for those mid-moajors that don't have ratings appeal, it is nearly impossible to get on the schedule...most teams (not all but most) in the power conferences run from playing such teams

Maybe instead of boring us with yet another Big 10/ACC snoozefest, we can have David versus Goliath showdowns...have 8 high profile teams go on the road for nationally televised games against mid-majors. I am sure that ESPN could market the heck out of it.

What part of St Mary's not being anywhere near as good as they were when Mills was 100% do you not understand? Had he not gotten hurt, St Mary's would easily have been in the field. Unfortunately, he did get hurt and St Mary's with a less than 100% Mills is not even close to being one of the top 34 teams.

2 seasons ago (as in before Curry was a national celeb), Davidson scheduled the following games:

Duke
UNC
NC St
UCLA

So your belief that the only reason Davidson was able to schedule games against BCS schools was that ESPN wanted the games this year just doesn't hold water -- they were able to do it 2 seasons ago as well. Just in case you think that 2 seasons ago was an aberration, Davidson got the following BCS teams to play them 3 seasons ago:

Duke
Missouri
Michigan
Arizona St

The bottom line is that BCS school will play the mid-majors -- it may be only at the BCS school's home court or at a neutral site, but it's very possible. St Mary's chose not to schedule the games and paid the price. It's also not like the team came out of nowhere this year. They were very good last year and the coach knew full well last summer when he was putting together the schedule that he had an even better team this year. Shame on him.

[4decadedukie]

I watched the Bilas (University of Arizona) versus Vitale (Saint Mary's) discussion live (and then reviewed it on TiVo a couple times). Both positions have some legitimacy, but -- and I hope Jay reads this -- he would enhance his image of prudent analyses combined with personal graciousness were he to be somewhat more charitable in the ways in which he disagrees. Civility can never be overdone, and my abiding impression -- as my mother frequently suggested to me 50+ years ago -- was "it's not what you say, it's how you say it.”

[SMO]

I had no idea what St. Mary's schedule looked like so I just took a peek. They don't have a signature game out of conference, let along a signature win! Providence does not count in my mind. At a glance, their only strong competition in games was Gonzaga, and they lost both of those.

Arizona, on the other hand, scheduled both Gonzaga and Kansas and won both! They did have some dubious losses, but I just don't see the cause for outrage over this one.

[TheTrain]

St. Mary's defeated then #23 ranked Utah State

[Wander]

I just don't see the cause for outrage over this one.

The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.

[blueprofessor]

I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.

In 2006 minutes, Newton had 7.6 ppg at 56.9%; 61 % from line;5.1 rpg ; 48 assists;118 TOs; 233 fouls;68 steals; and 101 blocks.

In 2864 minutes,Bilas had 8.4 ppg at 55.7%; 65% from line;5.4 rpg;56 assists; 117 TOs; 379 fouls; 41 steals;and 23 blocks.
So, Jay had 858 more minutes ( 42% of Newton's total minutes) and had virtually the same number of assists, 146 more fouls, 27 less steals,and 23% of Newton's blocks.
In terms of play per minutes, Jay had an assist every 51 minutes, a foul every 7.5 minutes, a steal every 70 minutes,and a block every 124 minutes.

Newton had a rebound every 3.65 minutes and Jay had a rebound every 4.2 minutes.

Best--Blueprof

[SMO]

The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.

To clarify, I was referring to Vitale's outrage. I didn't see the campaigning but will take your word for it. It's not appropriate for those guys to try to influence the committee unduly.

[jdj4duke]

The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.

Vitale destroyed any semblance of a "discussion". He blathered, would not let anyone else make a point, ridiculously "played the Duke card" and finally just acted like a petulant and wounded sourpuss. Poor Dickie allowed almost no give and take, which is the basis for a discussion. Had DV not been on an impossibly high soap box, there might have been some dialogue and reasonable conclusion, as there generally is during these little bromides by the chattering heads. Dickie's continuous blather sounded more like a drunken barroom discussion than a cogent discussion of an alternative position. I venture to say that if you encountered behavior similar to Dick's at a party, you would wander away muttering what a buffoon the guy was.

This little teacup must certainly be full by now-