MBB: Duke 72, Virginia Tech 65 Post-game Thread

[JStuart]

TussAgee11,
Thanks for the post, and welcome to the boards.
Let me defend our 'terping' in that it is similar to the officials calling the foul on the player who responds to the first hit/foul that is not seen.
It is the ridiculous attention drawn to Duke whenever a missed call goes our way that most of us are responding to, not the true "terping' mode of, 'we woulda won if it hadn't been for x foul'.
When the uproar over the traveling incident exploded, all we're saying is that we were hit with as many -potential-egregious calls as they, and why isn't any attention paid to those calls...by the announcers, reporters, fan boards? The local WRAL sports reporter even suggested listeners go to their website to find out more about the 'missed travelling call'. Amazing.
And then ESPN showed UNC highlights, and Hansbro' takes at least 4-5 steps trying to get a shot off underneath...but that is accepted, I guess.
JStuart

[MarkD83]

I live in Richmond and there was an article by Paul Woody in the Richmond Times about the game which clearly describes why Duke won and VT lost.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/spo...222324/218687/

Duke played harder and smarter. He did not mention the refs but did mentione two key plays:

Thompson missing a layup that would have put VT up 60-58 and Paulus's run out layup.

His comments were these were the deciding plays and Duke showed toughness and smarts when it counted.

End of analysis.

[OldPhiKap]

G's tech -- after it was called, G clapped his hands as if showing that he agreed with it. He was showing off a bit and got called for it. I wouldn't have blown the whistle for it, but so be it. You didn't see anyone else showing up after that.

Singler -- yeah, that was a cheap shot. Not sure if it was better or worse than the elbow Singler threw in the Carolina game. Like Singler, the VT guy should've gotten a tech if it had been seen. But I wouldn't start throwing "the league should take action" stones.

Refs -- I thought it was pretty consistent both ways. Not great, but not the travesty being described on this thread. We got every charge call except the seventh one Scheyer took (which was a more clear charge than several that fell our way). Those are close calls that, in many cases, could have gone the other way. We didn't get those calls because we're Duke -- we got them because they called that type of defensive step-up consistently all game. We adjusted, VT did not. Simple.

Announcers -- any criticism of them is probably too mild. They blew chunks.

[OldPhiKap]

I live in Richmond and there was an article by Paul Woody in the Richmond Times about the game which clearly describes why Duke won and VT lost.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/spo...222324/218687/

Duke played harder and smarter. He did not mention the refs but did mentione two key plays:

Thompson missing a layup that would have put VT up 60-58 and Paulus's run out layup.

His comments were these were the deciding plays and Duke showed toughness and smarts when it counted.

End of analysis.

Good article, thanks.

[CDu]

Tough win for us. VT is very capable of getting hot like that, so the run was not surprising (especially on their floor). We were fortunate to fight them off down the stretch.

I can't believe so many people are complaining about the technical foul called on Henderson. It was absolutely the correct call. It doesn't matter if he said anything or not. He very clearly and demonstratively stared down Vassallo after the dunk, which is considered taunting. The refs are supposed to call the unsportsmanlike penalty there. Players simply aren't allowed to do that. Sometimes it doesn't get called, but it is supposed to be called. Did he get fouled? Probably, and that should have been called too. But that doesn't absolve Henderson from getting called for unsportsmanlike.

I haven't watched the replay of the elbow on Singler, but my first impression was that it was intentional and dirty. It looked like he eyed Singler up and then threw the elbow. That's unacceptable. It will probably go unpunished.

Scheyer should have been called for a travel. However, VT was playing aggressive defense going for the steal and could have been called for a foul. The officials frequently "let them play" there. In any case, it shouldn't be the emphasis of the game. There were so many missed calls throughout the game both ways. It's always annoying (though understandable) when people harp on a call at the end of the game as though that was the only call that was wrong.

It was nice to see Singler bounce back after a couple of "down" games and a quite first half. He was huge in the second half. Solid performances by Henderson (not a great shooting night, but good overall game from him) and Scheyer, and solid workmanlike performance from McClure off the bench. Williams did another solid job defending Delaney. Would have liked to have seen better production from Thomas, Paulus, and Zoubek, but oh well.

[TNDukeFan]

...and it was pleasantly innocuous. Showed GH's dunk but not the technical, no mention of refs at all. Even Dykes and Nessler stayed on topic. Good recap.

[dukegirlinsc]

The elbow

Wow, I didn't realize it was that obvious. Of course, THAT wasn't highlighted and over-analyzed. Whatever.

[dukegirlinsc]

IMO, Bilas tries so hard to be unbais that he actually ends up subconciously picking the other teams over and over again. When he commentates, he always gives the other team so much more credit than us. Sigh....

AGREED. It drives me up the frickin' wall. Jay BIAS.

[arnie]

I believe the lack of coverage and commentary during the game on the elbow to Singler was intentional. The replay was shown once (very quickly), the idiot announcer said he didn't know if it was intentional and that was it. Singler stayed on the floor while they came down and I think hit a 3. No more mention of the play which was obviously very nasty and typical of a thug coached team.

This reminds me of the CBS coverage during the 2001 championship run. Every effort made to disparage our wins - and unfortunately the casual fans by into the concept.

[TussAgee11]

How convenient of you.

That was one of the most blatant, egregious elbows I've seen all year and you missed it?!!! Geesh. Oh, and Gerald getting fouled going up for the slam doesn't matter because he's so physical he can play through it? Great stuff...


Gary

I missed it because I was at the store. Clearly, I am not qualified to say "sorry, no comment. Didn't see it." :/

Not just coming at you Gary, some other posters said similar things. I don't excuse the miss of Jon's arms getting raked or G getting hit to the basket. I'm just explaining why that is a very difficult play to referee. Same way T is difficult to officiate. Same way the Neal play was almost impossible to officiate.

The game is getting harder to officiate - much harder. As the playcaller notes, only call the obvious ones you are certain of. It is easy to see a replay from a different angle, slowed down, to see things. People just need to get used to this sort of thing happening, because no official can call a perfect game of college basketball. Maybe 15-20 years ago. Not anymore.

As for the announcers, I really don't care. Why should it matter what people SAY about the officials. What matters to me is how they actually did. Analogy - Mike Patrick:Analyzing basketball :: Dykes:Analyzing refereeing. Nobody who does so is actually qualified to analyze officiating, including myself. I'm just trying to offer an opinion from a non-fan perspective.

And sorry I ran to the store and missed the Singler play, working 14 hours a day sometimes during the week kind of forces you to sneak in the errands whenever you can.

[TussAgee11]

One more thing to add.

Officials do adapt. I believe this is why G got the T called on him. He did something similar vs. Maryland and didn't get whacked. I would not be surprised at all if part of this crew's pregame was "lets make sure he doesn't do that again." And when VT plays again, I'm sure it will be "make sure to watch players in dead ball situations, especially Bell. And ensure every box out he make is legal."

If you go back and watch Hansborough's first 10 games, it is hilarious. The officials were COMPLETELY lost. Now, they do a much better job with him because they have some expectations on what is about to happen. Anticipating the play (not the call) helps officials get to the correct spot and look for the correct things.

I guarantee you next time Scheyer gets the ball in a similar situation, the official is not going to be as surprised that Scheyer was that strong with the basketball. They will take Saturday's play, store it away, and make an adjustment next time. Probably will end up being a foul right away, because it seems clear Scheyer will not lose the ball in that situation. If he does, it must have been a foul. Will go our way next time.

I'm reminded of a great article I read on the football side of things before the BCS championship game. Those guys arrived days early and watched film after film after film of what to expect every player on the field to do. That mindset is no different than what an ACC crew will do before every game as well.

[BobbyFan]

Singler -- yeah, that was a cheap shot. Not sure if it was better or worse than the elbow Singler threw in the Carolina game. Like Singler, the VT guy should've gotten a tech if it had been seen. But I wouldn't start throwing "the league should take action" stones.

Completely disagree. The incident was intentional and blatant - much more so than Henderson's shot on Hansbrough a few years ago. It was not a basketball play at all. I don't think he will be suspended, but a large part if it is that ABC didn't make a big deal of it at the time and Kyle was eventually ok.

[tendev]

Adrian Branch on ESPN Midnight Madness tonight picked VT as the team that hurt themselves today. Almost verbatim, he said VT was at home, everything to win, had a chance to get the lead, and then never could get the job done. No comment on calls, refs, etc. In summation- VT, with everything to win, got beaten. He was actually pretty down on them for having all the stars aligned and plenty of motivation and still getting popped.

So I was just finishing this post when Gottlieb comes right back on the Vassallo dunk with "what is it with the Dukies always getting dunked on". Gee Doug- count the dunks today and I think maybe Duke actually had a few more. These guys are just so painfully obvious one would think they would be embarrased. But one would be wrong, of course

Dukies get dunked on because our players are the only ones with the courage to stand there and try to take a charge. Invariably, Gerald goes up for a dunk the opposing players turn and run away. I don't know how many times that happened in the Maryland game. No one likes to get dunked on and so our players are the only ones with the self-confidence take the chance.

[Tom B.]

The one great thing ESPN did today (ABC) was the replays where you could see both coaches. No matter what, K kept coaching the next play. When they messed up the McClure sub, it was still about the next play. He had every right to be ticked, you know Seth would have been. But Mike is better than that. Duke is better than that. The fans should be too.

When you say "they" messed up the McClure substitution, are you referring to the refs or the Duke coaching staff? Because I thought the refs actually got that one right.

If I recall correctly, Coach K took McClure out and put Paulus in during a dead ball with 1:04 on the clock (I think Va. Tech was shooting free throws).

On the ensuing inbounds play, Paulus was held and a foul was called before the ball was inbounded, so no time went off the clock.

While Paulus was shooting his free throws, Coach K sent McClure to the scorer's table to sub for Paulus if he made his second free throw.

Paulus missed his first free throw, but made the second. Rather than stopping play to let McClure sub for Paulus, though, the refs let Virginia Tech initiate play. That's when the Duke coaches jumped up and pointed at McClure, yelling "Sub!" and the refs stopped play to see what was going on.

The problem, though, was that no time had gone off the clock since McClure had been taken out. Isn't there a rule that says that a player who is taken out can't be put back in the game until time has gone off the clock? I seem to remember a rule like that (though I'll confess I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, or if the rule has been changed recently).

If I'm remembering the rule correctly, then I think the officials got it right by not allowing the substitution.

[rthomas]

The elbow

I would say that this should be reviewed by the league and Bell should be suspended for a game...BUT they do play the Tarheels next.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I actually thought that the officiating wasn't so bad (or at least was equally bad to both teams). I hate the fact that they "let them play" to the point of diminishing the value of skill (which they do in the ACC all the time these days) and to the point of clear, blatant injury (which they are doing more and more, for what reason I can't imagine). But they let both teams "play" all game. No gripes there. The coverage, OTOH, was truly despicable, but I hit that in another thread and I'd rather not rehash it here.

Something I did notice is that we made a specific effort to run some plays for Z in the second 10 minutes of the first half. I know some folks have been calling for that, but it really backfired on us tonight. I felt like we were in complete control until we changed things up. There were some poor/tough entry passes that didn't work and Brian failed on some specific plays and as a result our O ground to a halt and VTech was given new life. I guess I understand the thought process, but it hurt us yesterday and I'm not sure we gained much from the attempts. I'd genuinely be interested in someone laying out a way that Brian's inside-out half-court game can be compatible with what we are running. It seems to me that any 7 foot aircraft carrier just clogs up our driving lanes, gums up our defensive switching, etc. I'm not questioning the coaching or Z's value to the team, I'm just having trouble putting the pieces together in my head.

Finally, VTech deserves credit for adjusting to G's play, but he also looked like he was hurt/winded/something. It seemed like we went to a delay in the last 3-4 minutes of the first half and that G came out very gun shy in the second half. I wonder if G tweaked something minor (announcers mentioned cramps), if VTech's brutal physicality on drives presented what K considered an unacceptable risk of injury to our players (esp. G) or what. Just curious if anyone else noticed this and had an idea what was up.

All in all, I was extremely impressed with our effort. This was a very tough game and it took a lot of guys executing very well under extraordinarily challenging circumstances to come out with a W. Everyone on the team and the staff should be very proud of how we played.

[Virginian]

The announcers said several times that G came out of the locker room during halftime to get some cooler air and that he was carrying 4 bottles of water. The implication was that he might have been dehydrated. The announcers seemed to be wondering if G wasn't slowed up in the second half because of this. I didn't see it reported on after the game, however.

[3rd Dukie]

Wow, I didn't realize it was that obvious. Of course, THAT wasn't highlighted and over-analyzed. Whatever.

MY reaction exactly!

I had no idea it was so flagrant.

[TussAgee11]

When you say "they" messed up the McClure substitution, are you referring to the refs or the Duke coaching staff? Because I thought the refs actually got that one right.

If I recall correctly, Coach K took McClure out and put Paulus in during a dead ball with 1:04 on the clock (I think Va. Tech was shooting free throws).

On the ensuing inbounds play, Paulus was held and a foul was called before the ball was inbounded, so no time went off the clock.

While Paulus was shooting his free throws, Coach K sent McClure to the scorer's table to sub for Paulus if he made his second free throw.

Paulus missed his first free throw, but made the second. Rather than stopping play to let McClure sub for Paulus, though, the refs let Virginia Tech initiate play. That's when the Duke coaches jumped up and pointed at McClure, yelling "Sub!" and the refs stopped play to see what was going on.

The problem, though, was that no time had gone off the clock since McClure had been taken out. Isn't there a rule that says that a player who is taken out can't be put back in the game until time has gone off the clock? I seem to remember a rule like that (though I'll confess I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, or if the rule has been changed recently).

If I'm remembering the rule correctly, then I think the officials got it right by not allowing the substitution.

You are correct on this rule - Paulus could have come out, but McClure could not go back in.

Now, no time appeared to come off the clock, but I remember Singler catching the ball in the corner, then a whistle coming from in front of the VT bench. You'd have to ask the official timer whether or not the clock started (it stayed at 1:04, but it still could have started and stopped). PTS doesn't pick up on this sort of thing, if the trail official administering the inbound clicks the clock in, and another ref has a whistle somewhere else, there is no way to know if the game clock has started or not.

I think you are correct in what WAS ruled, although I'd be curious to know the communication between the officials and the table. That could have been taken care of before K had a fit, but he seemed to accept the explanation.

And if it had been Seth/Gary instead of Mike, you know it would be a bigger deal!

[captmojo]

I'll terp a bit. Just one bit, concerning all the times Jon was knocked to the floor, in the first half, coming down from taking a jump shot. Never was called. He hit most of these shots, by the way.


I'm not one to gossip now, but I've heard from a taxi driver, who had a cousin that used to work with the sister of a custodian, who mopped the floor at Notre Dame Joyce Center on Tuesdays and Fridays. Well...he had a brother that used to see Seth Greenberg taking defensive lessons from Doh when he was there. They used to call this defensive style "Let's hack'em till they either a) give up the ball, or b) hear the whistle blow." I thought that might explain what happened to Jon there at the end.