Gary Williams vs. AAU / MD Program decline

[Smitty1911]

Here's an interesting article from the Washington Post on Gary Williams and his contentious relationships with the AAU community. It doesn't seem like he has the diplomatic skills to recruit in today's environment. The article does highlight some of the sleaze involved in getting top recruits.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

[bfree]

As a fan of the recruiting scene, and someone who has had a few interactions with AAU people, I've known a little bit about what's going on but was still shocked by parts of the story. I feel like there is a remarkably fine line between ethical and unethical and allowed and banned activities (and Gary is right that some allowed activities are unethical), and I hope that K is doing everything he can to bring in talent the right way.

Good link!

[mgtr]

I have to admit that my view of Williams changed slightly for the better after reading this article.

[bfree]

I have to admit that my view of Williams changed slightly for the better after reading this article.

I agree. You gotta respect him. And if the article is accurate, there seem to be an area of recruiting which is allowed by the NCAA but is kinda sleezy, and while it may be hurting his team, Gary Williams has just said no -- and on the record and naming names!

[allenmurray]

The basketball coaches at my son's high school, for whom I have a lot of basketball and personal respect, strongly discourage any of their players from becoming involved in the AAU circuit. There is more slime there than on a 1990s episode of You Can't Do That On Television (Nickelodeon channel)

[Ignatius07]

The basketball coaches at my son's high school, for whom I have a lot of basketball and personal respect, strongly discourage any of their players from becoming involved in the AAU circuit. There is more slime there than on a 1990s episode of You Can't Do That On Television (Nickelodeon channel)

That's fine advice for most players, but anybody with hopes of playing in high-major college basketball and the pros needs the AAU scene for the exposure.

[4decadedukie]

The Washington Post is featuring a three-part series (12, 13 and 14 February, I presume) on the Maryland program's unprecedented decline since their NCAA championship. It excoriates Coach Williams, which is quiet unusual for a “hometown” media outlet. One of the three articles is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021202299.html

[OldSchool]

Perhaps the Post has some valid criticisms about Gary's not developing close relationships with recruits, but a number of the examples they cite appear to be faulting Gary for not having a crystal ball and not knowing beforehand that another possible recruit would ultimately prove to be better than the equally or more highly-regarded recruit that Gary went after and got. For example, he was supposed to somehow predict that Deron Williams would be better than John Gilchrist? And the Post faults him for not personally being involved in recruiting Deron when he already had his point guard picked out in Gilchrist? Or, to take another cited example, Gary should have known beforehand that Matt Walsh would have been better than over Nik Caner-Medley?

Gary may not in fact be the best recruiter, but much of the evidence offered by the Post to support that allegation seems to be 20/20 hindsight.

[DukeVol]

Huggybear went to West Virginia...remember, the team that beat Duke in the NCAA Tourney last year. He left KSU before Beasley got there.

[allenmurray]

That's fine advice for most players, but anybody with hopes of playing in high-major college basketball and the pros needs the AAU scene for the exposure.

That is probably true, but sad. Two kids from my son's high school signed with Div I teams last year. Neither played AAU ball. But both signed with small schools.

[4decadedukie]

It was my impression that the Post's basic criticism focused on Maryland's massively declining won-and-lost record, including its failure to be included in the NCAA Tournament four of the last five years; recruiting was cited as a major causal factor, but it was not the article's fundamental thrust.

For example, the most prominent graphic in yesterday’s article cited Duke's post-2001 Championship winning percentage at 81.6, whereas Maryland’s post-2002 win percentage is 63.1.

[OldSchool]

The major theme in Part I of the series was Gary's recruiting failures, and is even subtitled: "Mostly Because of Recruiting Missteps, Gary Williams Has Presided Over a Steady Decline Since..."

Part II focuses on Gary's failure to develop relationships with AAU coaches, and it seems Gary has legitimate ethical concerns about the AAU scene.

It will be interesting to see what they have to say in Part III.

For all the fun we have at Gary's expense on this board, I must say I do not believe the Maryland fan base deserves a coach as good as Gary Williams.

[4decadedukie]

For all the fun we have at Gary's expense on this board, I must say I do not believe the Maryland fan base deserves a coach as good as Gary Williams.

There's a truly fascinating question: Do Maryland's truly abominable fans merit a coach with Williams' gross deficiencies, or do the fans complement Williams, reflecting his thuggish unsportsmanlike attitudes, his volatile temper, and his arrogant belief that a single NCAA championship mandates perpetual inclusion among Division I's parthenon of elite programs/coaches? My opinion is Williams and the Terp's fans deserve each other.

[OldSchool]

My opinion is Williams and the Terp's fans deserve each other.

Oh I think the MD fan base is much worse. Gary may be the LCDR Queeg of the ACC, but recall that in the final analysis it was the crew and not the captain of that ship who were most at fault.

IMO Gary is a very good basketball coach. Give him the same talent certain other ACC coaches are enjoying and Gary would do more with it.

As we saw throughout the Gilchrist saga, Gary believes the coaches, and not the players, should be in charge and I do not fault him for that.

[Virginian]

Oh I think the MD fan base is much worse. Gary may be the LCDR Queeg of the ACC, but recall that in the final analysis it was the crew and not the captain of that ship who were most at fault.

IMO Gary is a very good basketball coach. Give him the same talent certain other ACC coaches are enjoying and Gary would do more with it.

As we saw throughout the Gilchrist saga, Gary believes the coaches, and not the players, should be in charge and I do not fault him for that.

Actually the final scene of the Queeg story indicated that perhaps the crew could have done more to help prop up the totally deficient captain, but the overall story showed that was probably never going to happen. In short, the real point was that there were no heroes in the tale, but the crew was not "most at fault." That's like blaming the current Md. squad for the state of the school's basketball program for the last 5 years.

Similarly, saying Gary is great coach and just needs great players makes no real sense. GETTING great players is half of his job, and that's the part of his job he's getting knocked on at great length. And evidently with at least some justification.

Finally, let's not make final judgements on Gary's ability or legacy based on two Washington Post articles. We don't really know how accurate they are or how much they fully capture the true situation. Md. basketball is not in a good place. There is no doubt about that. Gary is the Md. coach. Yes, he may not be a bum, but is there anyone else who bears MORE responsibility for the state of Md. basketball than he does?

[OldSchool]

Actually the final scene of the Queeg story indicated that perhaps the crew could have done more to help prop up the totally deficient captain, but the overall story showed that was probably never going to happen. In short, the real point was that there were no heroes in the tale, but the crew was not "most at fault." That's like blaming the current Md. squad for the state of the school's basketball program for the last 5 years.

Similarly, saying Gary is great coach and just needs great players makes no real sense. GETTING great players is half of his job, and that's the part of his job he's getting knocked on at great length. And evidently with at least some justification.

Finally, let's not make final judgements on Gary's ability or legacy based on two Washington Post articles. We don't really know how accurate they are or how much they fully capture the true situation. Md. basketball is not in a good place. There is no doubt about that. Gary is the Md. coach. Yes, he may not be a bum, but is there anyone else who bears MORE responsibility for the state of Md. basketball than he does?

It may be fruitless to repeat myself in the face of such reading miscomprehension, but here goes.

I am not saying Gary is a great coach, and I do not regard him as a great coach. He is, however, in my view a very good basketball coach.

I do not contend that Gary is a great recruiter. Nevertheless, I fault the Post in its first article for citing examples to support the charge of poor recruiting in which the recruiting failures were only apparent with the use of perfect hindsight.

In the analogy I drew, the crew of the Caine was NOT the Maryland players. I did not and am not laying any fault with Maryland players.

And in the final scene of the film, Lt. Maryk conceded there would have been no need for a mutiny if the officers of the crew had not earlier withheld their loyalty from Queeg based on their disapproval of him and the manipulative aspiring author, Lt. Keefer, is identified as the real "author" of the Caine mutiny.

And your intimation about making "final" judgments about Gary Williams based solely on reading two Post articles comes completely out of left field. Some of us have been observing Maryland basketball for decades.

[Virginian]

It may be fruitless to repeat myself in the face of such reading miscomprehension, but here goes.

I am not saying Gary is a great coach, and I do not regard him as a great coach. He is, however, in my view a very good basketball coach.

I do not contend that Gary is a great recruiter. Nevertheless, I fault the Post in its first article for citing examples to support the charge of poor recruiting in which the recruiting failures were only apparent with the use of perfect hindsight.

In the analogy I drew, the crew of the Caine was NOT the Maryland players. I did not and am not laying any fault with Maryland players.

And in the final scene of the film, Lt. Maryk conceded there would have been no need for a mutiny if the officers of the crew had not earlier withheld their loyalty from Queeg based on their disapproval of him and the manipulative aspiring author, Lt. Keefer, is identified as the real "author" of the Caine mutiny.

And your intimation about making "final" judgments about Gary Williams based solely on reading two Post articles comes completely out of left field. Some of us have been observing Maryland basketball for decades.

I don't think I said -- and know I didn't mean -- that you were making judgements about Gary based solely on the Post articles.

As for the Queeg story, the end of the story is clearly saying that it was only one man's view that the crew was at least partly at fault. Rather there was a multiplicity of views about who was the villain -- clearly Queeg was never portrayed as a blameless victim of anyone in the crew. The bulk of the story made very clear that Queeg should not have been in command of that ship, even if he was not all that well served by his officers. But the overall point was that in life many things are not clear cut, not everything is black and white. From which I drew the analogy that there is no reason to make final judgements about GW based solely on the limited picture drawn in the Post articles. I didn't say you were doing so.

My post was meant to be about Gary, not about you. Sorry if that was unclear.

[Ignatius07]

Part II of the series is linked above but here are the others.

Part I: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021102722.html

Part III: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021302002.html

[4decadedukie]

IMO Gary is a very good basketball coach.

Is a "very good" college basketball coach vitally concerned with his student athletes' academic development, with their attaining degrees and educations that equip them for life's experiences in the broadest sense, as well as for their professions? I believe he must be, and Williams -- based on Maryland's abysmal graduation rates (I recall the last NCAA analysis indicated a zero percent rating for the Terps, although I could be wrong) -- entirely de-emphasizes this critical arena. The overwhelming majority of ACC basketball players will never become professional athletes, but every one of them will face a post-undergraduate future measured (probably) in six decades, or more. Wouldn't a "very good" basketball coach be almost obsessively focused scholastic- and life-preparation, in addition to "hardwood achievements?"

Please see USA Today's article that confirms a zero percent Maryland graduation rate: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...on-polls_N.htm

"Fear the Classroom" and "A mind is a Terrapin thing to waste" certainly are legitimate jibes.

[OldSchool]

Is a "very good" college basketball coach vitally concerned with his student athletes' academic development, with their attaining degrees and educations that equip them for life's experiences in the broadest sense, as well as for their professions? I believe he must be, and Williams -- based on Maryland's abysmal graduation rates (I recall the last NCAA analysis indicated a zero percent rating for the Terps, although I could be wrong) -- entirely de-emphasizes this critical arena. The overwhelming majority of ACC basketball players will never become professional athletes, but every one of them will face a post-undergraduate future measured (probably) in six decades, or more. Wouldn't a "very good" basketball coach be almost obsessively focused scholastic- and life-preparation, in addition to "hardwood achievements?"

Please see USA Today's article that confirms a zero percent Maryland graduation rate: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...on-polls_N.htm

"Fear the Classroom" and "A mind is a Terrapin thing to waste" certainly are legitimate jibes.

In judging whether someone is a great "coach" or runs a great "program" in the broader sense, I agree with you it is proper to take into account the coach's and program's influence on the student-athletes' lives and development beyond the narrow sense of how are they developed as basketball players, as well as the program's strength in attracting good student-athletes to the program in the first place.

But when I say Gary is a very good basketball coach, I am talking about the basketball in particular, what he gets out of his players on the court, not off the court.

And not to argue the point that Maryland does not have a strong tradition of graduating its basketball players or that Duke does, but that USA Today statistic you cited appears to be calculated as the graduation rate based on the entering class.

On that basis, if one were to look at this year's Duke graduating class (Greg Paulus' class) based on the entering class four years ago, it looks like we'll have only a lousy 40% graduation rate (Paulus and Pocius out of Boateng, Boykin, McRoberts, Paulus and Pocius). To the contrary, I would argue that simply looking at the graduation success rate for that class is not the best way to evaluate it because some student-athletes will graduate from other institutions and one left for the NBA.

Again, I am not saying that Maryland is strong at graduating its basketball players, but rather that the "0%" rate you cited overstates how lousy they are.

I hate to be in the position of defending Gary Williams because I despise Maryland basketball more than any other ACC program, but I suggest people may be allowing their antipathy for Maryland basketball in general to skew an objective assessment of Gary Williams as an individual.