MBB: Duke 73, NC State 56 Post-Game Thread

[Kimist]

This game worried me, as it was much closer than the final score. If the Devils offense cannot somehow become more consistent, there could be some serious problems against a team better than NCSU.

Scheyer seems to be in an offensive funk for the last several games.

Zoub has this nasty habit of either bringing the ball down, or even worse dribbling when it could be avoided. And didn't he get his shot blocked at least twice tonight?

OTOH, I like the steady play of McClure and continue to be amazed at what Henderson is beginning to show.

Yes, the TV crew left a bit to be desired...but it still beats enduring Vitale or Packer. What's with Gman's earring??

k

[chrisheery]

In a bar. At least 1 of those blocks on Zoub looked like a clear foul, but no call. Did anyone else think so? Is it possible he doesn't get these calls because (as per the playcaller's notes) a referee is ready to make the call they expect. In Zoub's case, the fact that he gets blocked at times makes the ref more likely to allow more physical play against him. I actually like when he doesn't go straight up. When he pump fakes it lets the refs really assess what he is doing and call what happens.

Hey, it works for #50.

[phaedrus]

Henderson led us in all major statistical categories tonight, including assists and steals. It's probably been long long time since we've had someone do that.

Considering Singler has been leading the team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals per game, it probably hasn't been that long.

[godukecom]

FWIW, Zoub did make a nice move on McCalley (sp?) when he dribbled once, pivoted back with his right root, and did a sudo-reverse layup...

[greybeard]

I can understand why K did it, but you don't sit two regulars an entire game and expect them to come back and be in sync with the rest of the guys, and then yank them if they disappoint on a few opportunities.

Didn't see the game, but what from one poster said is that Zoubek had difficulty converting from catching in an "athletic stance" with weight on his back and converting that into an effective try on the basket. I think that that is a very problematic play for him and would not be asking him to make it. I do not think that this is a matter that can be improved by "practice" in a conventional sense, ie, reps, or by improving lower or upper body strength. I think that there are somethings about navigating the territory from an "athletic position", shield-you-man catch, in which he is bent over with knees bent to an upright extended position from which he can deliver an effective shot that Zoubek does not "get," some very elemental things that are very remote from what one would call basketball skills.

If Z gets it the ball thrown high in a way that requires him to move in a direction that his alignment prepares him to I think that he has provent that he can be very effective. I think that there are a lot of big men who function best in this way. While some, maybe a fair number, can jump better than Zoubek or exhibit more diversity, I believe that Zoubek is quite effective when he makes such receptions. I also believe that K's system is not about having his team playing or looking for such passing opportunities. I fear we are getting ever more near to square-peg-round-hole territory in which there are no winners, certainly not Zoubek.

If this is a delegated judgment to one of the assistants, if I was K, I would try redelegating. I think that their best team requires that they use Zoubek effectively for 15-15 minutes a game, and that the mountain coming to Mohammad is the best and probably only way that that can happen. Regretably it sounds like things are moving in the opposite direction: Zoubek only gets it if he sets and seals in the manner the coaches want, and in that position odds on he disappoints. Ouch!

[devildeac]

Duke shot 77% in the second half.

After a 29% 1st half. Strange game.

[SilkyJ]

We have the highlight of the night on the front page of espn right now and its a nice shot of G

FWIW, Zoub did make a nice move on McCalley (sp?) when he dribbled once, pivoted back with his right root, and did a sudo-reverse layup...

just fyi, that's called a drop step and thats been one of, if not the one, go to move for Zoubs this year when he actually makes a move with his back to the basket, which is not very often.

[Jumbo]

I can understand why K did it, but you don't sit two regulars an entire game and expect them to come back and be in sync with the rest of the guys, and then yank them if they disappoint on a few opportunities.

Didn't see the game, but what from one poster said is that Zoubek had difficulty converting from catching in an "athletic stance" with weight on his back and converting that into an effective try on the basket. I think that that is a very problematic play for him and would not be asking him to make it. I do not think that this is a matter that can be improved by "practice" in a conventional sense, ie, reps, or by improving lower or upper body strength. I think that there are somethings about navigating the territory from an "athletic position", shield-you-man catch, in which he is bent over with knees bent to an upright extended position from which he can deliver an effective shot that Zoubek does not "get," some very elemental things that are very remote from what one would call basketball skills.

If Z gets it the ball thrown high in a way that requires him to move in a direction that his alignment prepares him to I think that he has provent that he can be very effective. I think that there are a lot of big men who function best in this way. While some, maybe a fair number, can jump better than Zoubek or exhibit more diversity, I believe that Zoubek is quite effective when he makes such receptions. I also believe that K's system is not about having his team playing or looking for such passing opportunities. I fear we are getting ever more near to square-peg-round-hole territory in which there are no winners, certainly not Zoubek.

If this is a delegated judgment to one of the assistants, if I was K, I would try redelegating. I think that their best team requires that they use Zoubek effectively for 15-15 minutes a game, and that the mountain coming to Mohammad is the best and probably only way that that can happen. Regretably it sounds like things are moving in the opposite direction: Zoubek only gets it if he sets and seals in the manner the coaches want, and in that position odds on he disappoints. Ouch!

How can you possibly comment (let alone at such length) about Zoubek's moves when you didn't even see them??? Seriously?

The plays (there were three of them) were almost identical. He caught the ball with basically no one near him around the hoop, with his back to the basket or turned toward the side, off lobs. But it took him so long to collect himself, turn and put the ball in the basket from two feet away that defenders who didn't seem close to him were able to scramble and, despite giving up several inches, block his shot.
And he got 16 minutes tonight, so you can't complain about his playing time, either.

[Oriole Way]

I am one of the more critical observers of this team and I was happy with the win tonight. I'm a little surprised a lot of posters were unhappy with the overall performance.

I really value good second half performances from this team. That's winning time, and many of our losses - going back several years - will feature a prolonged offensive second half drought, missed free throws, bad defensive rebounding, and poor defense overall. None of that was really evident tonight. Sure, NC State was hitting shots at will for the start of the second half, but I don't think Duke playing bad defense was the reason. NC State was just playing well and hitting contested shots, pure and simple.

I thought we recovered very well from a cold-shooting first half. We exchanged punches with NC State for most of the 2nd half's first 8 minutes. Both State and Duke answered each other with big buckets, and I thought it was great basketball by both teams. Players stepped up and made plays, even with their opponents playing tough defense against them. But ultimately, Duke continued to score after making some stops, forcing some turnovers, and withstanding NC State's hot shooting. The end of the second half was very efficient, and we delivered a few knockout blows to put the game away convincingly. I hope Duke can continue to do that against our better opponents, and I believe this team is capable of that.

Gerald Henderson was a man among boys tonight, especially in the second half. He imposed his will on the game, and scored in pretty much every way possible. He drove to the rim, getting fouled twice on consecutive possessions. He pulled up to hit jumpers, and he even drove to his left effectively once. Without Henderson essentially comprising our entire offense for the start of the second half, it would have been very unlikely Duke would have won.

But I was also very impressed with Nolan Smith tonight. Along with G and Singler, he played a fine game. He asserted himself at a key juncture in the second half, when the game was still very close. He hit 2 clutch 3-pointers, and then followed those up with a jumper from the foul line. I believe they were on three consecutive offensive possessions for Duke, but I could be mistaken and it might have been 3 out of 4 or something close to that. I really think those Smith buckets were the ultimate turning point in the game. After securing the lead, we never looked back. If Smith can emerge as a somewhat consistent scorer in big games, and improve in terms of taking care of the basketball, we become a much better team. He was very confident tonight, which we haven't really seen since his knee injury.

Ultimately, NC State is a solid team. They have two quality big men in McCauley and Costner. Their guard play leaves a little to be desired, but they have been competitive all season. This was a letdown game for Duke, and that was the case for the first half. But we overcame another terrible shooting night from Jon Scheyer and foul trouble with Singler.

Speaking of Scheyer, unless he's injured, he will emerge from his slump eventually, most likely very soon. Guards in general can be quite susceptible to shooting slumps lasting a few games. Frankly, I'm glad it's happening now, during a relatively easy part of the schedule. I am cautiously hopeful that Jon will find his stroke in time for the brutal part of our schedule.

[Troublemaker]

Can we stop making excuses for Zoubek and Thomas?

Against FSU and Georgetown it's "they don't match up well with big tall front lines", and against NSCU now it's "they don't match up well with smaller quicker guys".

So they don't match up well against tall players or short players. What's left?

It's not the match up, it's the quality of their play. It simply hasn't been there. They need to get it together, no more excuses.

Excuses? I don't see any excusing making, just folks stating their opinions about certain matchups. What I do see is you splitting hairs here. What you apparently want to read is an analysis of the big men that says "their quality of play is not good." Well, that is splitting hairs because that analysis is essentially the same as saying they don't match up well with various players. Obviously, if a player were a stud (i.e. someone who consists of high quality play), he'd have much fewer poor matchups for him. So, I don't see what the gain is by saying things your way instead. I see it as a semantical adjustment. Besides, matchups are extremely important in basketball and fun to analyze.

FWIW, Zoubek and Thomas will have their first good matchups in awhile against Maryland.

[FireOgilvie]

I watched the first half again. I focused on where we broke down on defense, but there are a few notes about offense as well.

The NC State run to take the lead - Took advantage of poor communication on defense. Most of their points came from missed defensive switches in zone defense. Thomas played a direct role in several of these. Smith and McClure on the Costner 3 that put State up 24-20. Zoubek got beaten badly as he was posted up and his man dribbled around him.

Smith - Great at staying in front of his man on defense. Made one big mistake and had to swipe from behind. If his man tries to drive on him he either stays in front of him and cuts him off or runs him off at an angle away from the basket so help defense can arrive. Has a tendency to drift and wander (into the paint for example) in defensive switches and after shots, which leads to long rebounds going over his head. Not completely aware of where he should be at all times. Started out very aggressive on offense - drove to the rim early a couple times, but NC State adjusted and he didn't force the issue. Able to get the ball to guys to create their own shot (leading to low assist numbers). In my opinion, he should stay aggressive and drive to the basket whenever possible and either shoot or look for the open man. If he does that, he will be much more effective.

McClure - Great defensive awareness, which leads to good positioning for rebounds. Makes up for other people's defensive switching mistakes. Great lateral quickness; hard to get past him. Contests every shot with his long arms.

Paulus - Slow lateral movement, has trouble staying in front of his man. Got completely burned - led to floater from 3 feet. Tendency to be over-aggressive... went for a steal on an inbounds and missed, which led to State points, went for another steal that led to an open 3 (that missed). Frequently lets his man get away from him and can't recover. The defense has to play tighter into the paint to make sure to be in position if his man gets by him. Great shooting in the first half. I think he would be much more effective on defense if he just backed off of his man a bit (especially 5+ feet outside of the 3 point line).

Zoubek - Started out well, but had trouble staying with State's more mobile big guys. Almost always in good position for rebounds, but gets undercut and pushed around too easily. He looked really good for the first 5.5 minutes. He was particularly ineffective when State spread out the floor.

Thomas - Almost never in position to rebound because he gets pulled away from the basket and plays his man too far from the hoop. Slow to rotate on defensive switches (or he just didn't), leading to a lot of open looks. He really looked lost on defense a lot, although he brings a great deal of energy. He stays with his man and doesn't get beaten off the dribble very easily. I noticed that he is rarely ever close to the ball for rebounds, it's not that he just misses. He usually crashes the glass on defense from the outside, but this doesn't lead to rebounds.

Henderson - Looked great on defense. Disrupted the ball whenever it was around him. Not beaten off the dribble. He probably played the best defense of anyone in the 1st half.

[ncexnyc]

I can understand why K did it, but you don't sit two regulars an entire game and expect them to come back and be in sync with the rest of the guys, and then yank them if they disappoint on a few opportunities.

Didn't see the game, but what from one poster said is that Zoubek had difficulty converting from catching in an "athletic stance" with weight on his back and converting that into an effective try on the basket. I think that that is a very problematic play for him and would not be asking him to make it. I do not think that this is a matter that can be improved by "practice" in a conventional sense, ie, reps, or by improving lower or upper body strength. I think that there are somethings about navigating the territory from an "athletic position", shield-you-man catch, in which he is bent over with knees bent to an upright extended position from which he can deliver an effective shot that Zoubek does not "get," some very elemental things that are very remote from what one would call basketball skills.

If Z gets it the ball thrown high in a way that requires him to move in a direction that his alignment prepares him to I think that he has provent that he can be very effective. I think that there are a lot of big men who function best in this way. While some, maybe a fair number, can jump better than Zoubek or exhibit more diversity, I believe that Zoubek is quite effective when he makes such receptions. I also believe that K's system is not about having his team playing or looking for such passing opportunities. I fear we are getting ever more near to square-peg-round-hole territory in which there are no winners, certainly not Zoubek.

If this is a delegated judgment to one of the assistants, if I was K, I would try redelegating. I think that their best team requires that they use Zoubek effectively for 15-15 minutes a game, and that the mountain coming to Mohammad is the best and probably only way that that can happen. Regretably it sounds like things are moving in the opposite direction: Zoubek only gets it if he sets and seals in the manner the coaches want, and in that position odds on he disappoints. Ouch!

Please, please, please, enough of this already!

Brian botched 3 easy baskets. One he fumbled away and the other two were blocked when they should have been uncontested gimmes due to his size and position when he got the ball.

I think Brian's has a ton of upside and as long as he stays healthy he will improve, but the constant excuses you make for him and your continual harping about where he gets the ball is getting really old.

I'm not bashing the kid, he made several really nice plays. He made another nice spin move along the baseline and he converted. He also had several nice pass plays, which seem to reinforce the idea that he is a solid passer and should be utilized as such.

Before you write a response to this post watch the game. You'll see everything you'll need to see in the first 10-15 minutes of the game. Then if you disagree, have at me with both barrels.

[Ian]

Excuses? I don't see any excusing making, just folks stating their opinions about certain matchups. What I do see is you splitting hairs here. What you apparently want to read is an analysis of the big men that says "their quality of play is not good." Well, that is splitting hairs because that analysis is essentially the same as saying they don't match up well with various players. Obviously, if a player were a stud (i.e. someone who consists of high quality play), he'd have much fewer poor matchups for him. So, I don't see what the gain is by saying things your way instead. I see it as a semantical adjustment. Besides, matchups are extremely important in basketball and fun to analyze.

FWIW, Zoubek and Thomas will have their first good matchups in awhile against Maryland.

No, it's not saying the same thing. Saying "they don't match up well against smaller players" implies that they would have done better had the other team been bigger. But they didn't do well against teams with bigger lineup either, so the problem is not match ups, it's simply lack of performance. I don't think had the opposition been bigger it would have helped them at all.

[CameronCrazy'11]

With Zoubek, it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. Sorry, people are still gonna have to be patient with him.

[Acymetric]

The 56 points argument doesn't hold water in my opinion. NCSU has no point guard, and not much of an inside presence. Yet time and time again they were getting points in the paint by driving to the hole with no one stopping them because no one rotated over. Duke made McCauley/Costner look like 1st team All Americans tonight. It wasn't Dukes defense that made it possible for only 56 points, it's because NCSU can't score, they have no offensive weapons.

Maybe the "forget what help defense was about" comment was a bit harsh, but it was lacking big time tonight.

I was in the RBC center not too long ago and watched State put up somewhere near 80 points I believe (in the FSU game). They certainly aren't an offensive power, but our defense was good at worst. Imagine if we could have grabbed some boards, their score would have been even lower. Was there butter on that ball?

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

With Zoubek, it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. Sorry, people are still gonna have to be patient with him.

You can only be so patient before you have to ask yourself... seriously...? I mean what he's a junior now playing D1 basketball and he airballs layups from point blank range?

[Troublemaker]

No, it's not saying the same thing. Saying "they don't match up well against smaller players" implies that they would have done better had the other team been bigger. But they didn't do well against teams with bigger lineup either, so the problem is not match ups, it's simply lack of performance. I don't think had the opposition been bigger it would have helped them at all.

First of all, the appropriate/ideal matchups differ whether you're talking about Z or LT, who are very different players, so it's not a good idea to lump them together like that. Second, it's not just a big vs small thing. That oversimplifies the issue. Let's take Z for instance. His relies so much on his height and is otherwise so unathletic that when he matches up against tall centers like the ones from FSU or GaTech, he becomes neutralized. However, he's also not quick enough to handle opposing big men with good perimeter skills (typically smaller), which makes him unusable against Georgetown, for instance. Do those instances mean we've covered the entire gamut of all big men and Z can never make an impact on this team? Of course not. There are plenty of 6'7 to 6'9 players that don't have good perimeters skills which he can match up against. He can play against a Trevor Booker, for example, and we'll need him for those games against Clemson. I admit it's somewhat like threading a needle as far as finding the right matchups for him, but they do exist, which is why he leads the team in plus/minus rate. Furthermore, pointing out when he has difficult matchups isn't "excusing" the quality of big man that he is. In fact, quite the opposite. We know he has limitations, which have an effect on what matchups are good for him.

[Lord Ash]

It was good to see JJ there. I wish they would have let him shoot around at halftime in lieu of the Dancing Devils.

That would have been the best halftime show EVER EVER EVER EVER.

[rsvman]

I'm also in Virginia and couldn't watch the game. I was watching a bit of Tennessee v Vanderbilt and then ESPN runs a "SCORE ALERT!!" on the crawl saying that NCSU was beating Duke...and then they show the score and we're down 3 with 10:38 left in the game. They made it sound like we were down 15 with 4 minutes left or something.

Despite the over-sell, I went up to the computer and went on to CBS Sportsline and got the play-by-play stat update thingy. (It was better than nothing.) What I saw was McClure getting steals and blocks, Henderson getting steals at key times, Henderson and Smith making key shots, Singler picking up rebounds and making shots when we needed them.

We beat them by 20 points in a 10-minute stretch. Think about it. That's COMPLETE domination.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

Being at the game in person, it became clearer to me why Zoubs sometimes doesn't see more playing time: he's a liability on D. He can't attempt to be an on-the-ball defender without fouling, so his only option is to go straight up. Given his size, sometimes that's enough. But any reasonably athletic big guy can score on him at will. Also, I'm not sure why no-one helped him to double-team his opponents.

I'm not really concerned about the rebounding margin. Of course, rebounds are relative to shooting percentage and given the fact that both seems shot really well during significant stretches, there simply weren't as many rebounds to be had.

Gerald's step-back jumper is becoming quite scary. Good for Duke now, possibly bad for Duke later as the NBA scouts are no doubt looking closely.

Once again, K played 10 guys early with 8 guys seeing 15+ minutes. Given that, I'm not too concerned that we lacked a bit of chemistry at times - it happens sometimes with a deep bench. The fact is that vs G'Town (a top-15 power) and State K played went deep into his bench very early and we were still able to beat both teams quite handily. This could be a very good sign come March. Added bonus: Singler saw only 29 minutes and still scored 17.