Duke-Virginia Tech Post Game Thread

[DukeDevilDeb]

Couldn't agree more with both of these posts.

I am growing increasingly frustrated and disappointed with K's handling of Plumlee, Williams, and Pocius.

FerryFor50 mentioning Pocius, albeit him struggling, reminds me of the fact Pocius stepped up in a big way during his sophomore year against NC State and VCU, our final two games. Now, this kid gets no meaningful minutes against far less talented teams. I refuse to believe that, two years later, Pocius hasn't made any improvements whatsoever. One big reason, aside from injuries, is that he has never been given any minutes when he was healthy. I'm not claiming that Pocius is any kind of impact player, but he has some talent. It's almost as if K decides that a player isn't talented enough, or doesn't play NBA-caliber defense, and consequently deems them incapable or unworthy of receiving minutes.

I have really liked Marty since he arrived, especially when he has lots of energy on the court. But I have now watched him play this season, and he's still doing the things he did before... although I must admit his defense is better. Almost no matter where he gets the ball, as soon as he touches it, Marty throws up a 3. Now some fans say that's confidence; I say it's thoughtless. I'm bothered by the fact that it appears that he thinks he has to make 3 pointers to be valuable, and therefore he tries at every turn.

Passing stops when the ball gets to Marty in a way it doesn't with our other 3 point shooters (Scheyer, Greg, G, Kyle, Nolan). Anybody want to speculate on why that happens or what could reasonably be done about it?

[jv001]

If Coach K subs Williams & Plumlee with a 20point lead and leaves them in until it drops to 15 it may give the opponent confidence and then they start believing they can comeback. I say put your foot on their throat and don't put them away. Give them mins when the game is out of reach. Go Duke!

[jv001]

That was suppose to be put them away. Go Duke!

[Acymetric]

I say you play them when the lead balloons to 20. Let them play to stay out there. If the lead drops below 15, you sub the starters back in. It's that easy. There's not any set amount of minutes I want them to get; I just want there to be some sort of real game-time experience, and lessons learned with keeping a lead and playing smart.

Another positive aspect of playing your blue chippers a little bit more is that you show potential incoming recruits that it's not impossible to crack the rotation at Duke.

However, do that and people will complain about how we need to hold and extend our big leads, and that winning by 10-20 isn't enough, and that we should win by 30+ margins. Some part of the fanbase is going to whine and complain regardless, so he may as well just do whatever he wants anyways.

For my part the only freshman I think should play more is Williams, and its not something I'm worried about. If K gave him a few extra minutes thats good, but if he doesn't I'm just as happy seeing our other guys out there.

And as for people who would decrease Dave's minutes, I would actually like to INCREASE them. He is our best and most versatile defender right now. If he would try more drives like the one in the last couple minutes of the game last night and put 6-8 points up he would be a force. The problem with that is who do you take minutes from? My answer would be LT, except I like Dave at the 3, and if he subbed in for LT he would probably be playing at the 4 or 5, or you would have to put Z in for Lance and Dave in for someone else, which would mean Z is in more because Lance is in less.

Which reminds me, when adding up minutes like this, make sure you consider the lineups that you create. Which might be a better way to do this. Write out how many minutes you would want for particular lineups, rather than individual players. 40 minutes for as many lineup combination as you want. I'll take a crack at it later.

[FerryFor50]

However, do that and people will complain about how we need to hold and extend our big leads, and that winning by 10-20 isn't enough, and that we should win by 30+ margins. Some part of the fanbase is going to whine and complain regardless, so he may as well just do whatever he wants anyways.

For my part the only freshman I think should play more is Williams, and its not something I'm worried about. If K gave him a few extra minutes thats good, but if he doesn't I'm just as happy seeing our other guys out there.

And as for people who would decrease Dave's minutes, I would actually like to INCREASE them. He is our best and most versatile defender right now. If he would try more drives like the one in the last couple minutes of the game last night and put 6-8 points up he would be a force. The problem with that is who do you take minutes from? My answer would be LT, except I like Dave at the 3, and if he subbed in for LT he would probably be playing at the 4 or 5, or you would have to put Z in for Lance and Dave in for someone else, which would mean Z is in more because Lance is in less.

Which reminds me, when adding up minutes like this, make sure you consider the lineups that you create. Which might be a better way to do this. Write out how many minutes you would want for particular lineups, rather than individual players. 40 minutes for as many lineup combination as you want. I'll take a crack at it later.

I like Elliott as well. I'd like to see more Plumlee minutes, though. I think we need depth with size more than depth on the wings. Though Elliott rebounds like crazy...

It is a tough quandary, whichever way you look at it though. That's why we speculate on forums rather than winning NCAA championships.

[mgtr]

I don't recall seeing Pocius do much that was useful. The lore is that he can shoot threes (has he made any this year?) and that he can take it to the rim (has he done so this year?) I don't want to rag on the guy, but he has so many people rooting for him, I believe he probably can make threes and can take it to the rim. Is it a confidence issue? Does he not get sufficient time to feel confident, so he just hoists up any old shot? Does he make those shots in practice but not in games? I really don't know.

[wilko]

And as for people who would decrease Dave's minutes, I would actually like to INCREASE them. He is our best and most versatile defender right now. If he would try more drives like the one in the last couple minutes of the game last night and put 6-8 points up he would be a force.

I love McClure. Hes paid his dues with some health issues, stuck thru it, has a good team 1st attitude. What more do you want?

Perhaps some aggression and confidence in attacking the basket better, but aything he gives on O is gravy. His job is to make opposing players miserable by defending them and use his fouls to protect the other bigs. I like what he brings to the table. Hes a glue guy.



On a note that shows my age..

Who the heck is Uncle Festus?

I know Festus was a character on Gunsmoke and that Jackie Coogan played Uncle Fester on the Addams family... but Uncle Festus is beyond me.

[jimsumner]

"Another positive aspect of playing your blue chippers a little bit more is that you show potential incoming recruits that it's not impossible to crack the rotation at Duke."

You mean like Singler and Smith couldn't get off the bench last year? Or Scheyer and Henderson the year before or McRoberts and Paulus the year before that? I'm pretty sure we could find some examples of blue-chip freshmen getting a little playing time, just a little, if we tried hard enough.

[Kedsy]

I don't recall seeing Pocius do much that was useful. The lore is that he can shoot threes (has he made any this year?) and that he can take it to the rim (has he done so this year?) I don't want to rag on the guy, but he has so many people rooting for him, I believe he probably can make threes and can take it to the rim. Is it a confidence issue? Does he not get sufficient time to feel confident, so he just hoists up any old shot? Does he make those shots in practice but not in games? I really don't know.

Has anyone else noticed how Marty fades away on all his (missed) three-pointers? I bet he doesn't do that in practice, and if he didn't do it in the games he'd hit some.

[Kedsy]

On a note that shows my age..

Who the heck is Uncle Festus?

I know Festus was a character on Gunsmoke and that Jackie Coogan played Uncle Fester on the Addams family... but Uncle Festus is beyond me.

I'm pretty sure whoever said "Uncle Festus" meant "Uncle Fester." But you probably already know that, right?

[FerryFor50]

"Another positive aspect of playing your blue chippers a little bit more is that you show potential incoming recruits that it's not impossible to crack the rotation at Duke."

You mean like Singler and Smith couldn't get off the bench last year? Or Scheyer and Henderson the year before or McRoberts and Paulus the year before that? I'm pretty sure we could find some examples of blue-chip freshmen getting a little playing time, just a little, if we tried hard enough.

It was mainly because they had to, due to departures, injury and mistakes in recruiting.

[ncexnyc]

Does this team actually have depth?

We've got Lance, Greg, and Dave as the first off the bench.

Then we drop down to Ewill, Marty, Miles, and finally Olek.

Lance subs for Brian and gives us energy, solid defense and a stickback every now and then. I'm not so sure he's the perfect sub for Brian due to his lack of bulk and I hope that Miles can eventually progress to that role.

Dave gives us awesome defense, rebounding and is a major pest to the opposition, but again he's very limited offensively.

Greg, who is supposed to be the primary scorer off the bench hasn't lived up to that role as of yet and I believe he needs to get it going in order for the team to meet it's full potential.

Watching Ewill and Miles, it's easy to see that the talent is there, it's just going to take a while for everything to gel.

I hate to say it, but Marty just isn't cutting it. He's been given many chances, but I have to agree with a number of other posters, he seems to be trying to hard.

Olek appears to be a major project and it's very obvious that he's not going to contribute much on the court this year.

So while we do have a number of bodies who are getting playing time and some of them major minutes, my concern is for what happens when one of the regulars into very serious foul trouble or gets the inevitable injury, it doesn't have to be anything major, just a sprained ankle, pulled groin or hammy. Something where the player misses a game or two.

[Matches]

As Ferry mentioned, there will be games where foul trouble becomes an issue. I'll never forget the Wake game 3 or 4 years ago where six guys fouled out, including the whole starting 5 + Melchionni. Last season, we had 4 or 5 guys foul out against Wake. I would not be surprised to see that happen again this season.

If we have 4-5 guys foul out of one game, we're going to lose. It's really as simple as that - there isn't a team in D1 other than *maybe* the Smurfs that can win with its "B" team. (And even they would have a really tough time.)

I'm just not convinced that playing guys who aren't ready for a few minutes here or there (and realistically, looking at what Plumlee is doing on the floor right now, that's all we could afford), is going to make a significant difference in their development. If anything I think you run the risk of having an adverse effect on them by destroying their confidence. If they're ready, fine - a guy like Singler who was ready right off the bat played right away, and would have no matter our recruiting/ personnel situation. But if they're not ready, don't toss them to the wolves and let them get eaten up. I have been critical of K's non-use of the bench in the past, but in the past season plus he's used it a lot more - I just don't see a situation where the 9-12 guys are playing significant minutes.

[jv001]

It was mainly because they had to, due to departures, injury and mistakes in recruiting.

Kyle and Nolan played last year because they were good enough to earn the mins they played. If Williams, Miles and Olek work like they did they will see their mins go up as well. Go Duke!

[jimsumner]

"It was mainly because they had to, due to departures, injury and mistakes in recruiting. "


That's right. They had to play. Like Amaker and Ferry and Laettner and Hurley and Hill and Capel and Brand and Duhon and Redick and Deng just had to play to freshmen. Because of lousy recruiting.

Of all the ridiculous things to complain about. Duke is 12-1, ranked 2nd in the country, and coming off a 25-point beatdown of a pretty good VT team, which scored all of 13 points in the second half. Duke has a cohesive, veteran, eight-man rotation that gives them size, depth, experience, balance, shooting, defense, ball-handling, rebounding, and pert near anything else a college basketball team could ask for.

So what's the problem? Well, Mike Krzyzewski clearly did a lousy job of developing Marty Pocius last year after Marty had season-ending ankle surgery after four games. After all, Pocius scored 14 points one time in 2007, followed by that career-defining 3-point game against VCU. What's K thinking playing Scheyer and Henderson ahead of Pocius?

Then, we come to the freshmen, raw, talented, promising, very much still works in progress. Doesn't matter what they do in practice, doesn't matter what they do in games. Force feed them minutes over players who are more deserving of minutes. Because the members of this board see them in practice all the time and have such keen insights as a result.

And to top if off, we're now told that this will hinder recruiting because blue-chip recruits don't think they can crack the rotation. Guess what? Duke has had at least one freshman average at least 10 mpg every single season since K's first. Singler last year became the 24th freshman under K to play at least 20 mpg. He also joined Dawkins, JWill, Redick, and Deng as freshmen who made All-ACC.

So, I suspect K isn't any more worried about this than the five blue-chip recruits in the high-school classes of 2009 and 2010 who have already signed/committed to Duke. When E Williams and Plumlee earn PT, they'll get PT. It's been that way for some time now and the head coach has something of a track record in managing his program.

Sometimes I think this board just looks for things to fret about.

[wilko]

I'm pretty sure whoever said "Uncle Festus" meant "Uncle Fester." But you probably already know that, right?

Well, that would be my assumption, but you know what happens when you assume. For all I know hes the frontman for some band or whatever.

It took me forever to figure out what "crunk" is all about...

So what do I know?

[jv001]

"It was mainly because they had to, due to departures, injury and mistakes in recruiting. "


That's right. They had to play. Like Amaker and Ferry and Laettner and Hurley and Hill and Capel and Brand and Duhon and Redick and Deng just had to play to freshmen. Because of lousy recruiting.

Of all the ridiculous things to complain about. Duke is 12-1, ranked 2nd in the country, and coming off a 25-point beatdown of a pretty good VT team, which scored all of 13 points in the second half. Duke has a cohesive, veteran, eight-man rotation that gives them size, depth, experience, balance, shooting, defense, ball-handling, rebounding, and pert near anything else a college basketball team could ask for.

So what's the problem? Well, Mike Krzyzewski clearly did a lousy job of developing Marty Pocius last year after Marty had season-ending ankle surgery after four games. After all, Pocius scored 14 points one time in 2007, followed by that career-defining 3-point game against VCU. What's K thinking playing Scheyer and Henderson ahead of Pocius?

Then, we come to the freshmen, raw, talented, promising, very much still works in progress. Doesn't matter what they do in practice, doesn't matter what they do in games. Force feed them minutes over players who are more deserving of minutes. Because the members of this board see them in practice all the time and have such keen insights as a result.

And to top if off, we're now told that this will hinder recruiting because blue-chip recruits don't think they can crack the rotation. Guess what? Duke has had at least one freshman average at least 10 mpg every single season since K's first. Singler last year became the 24th freshman under K to play at least 20 mpg. He also joined Dawkins, JWill, Redick, and Deng as freshmen who made All-ACC.

So, I suspect K isn't any more worried about this than the five blue-chip recruits in the high-school classes of 2009 and 2010 who have already signed/committed to Duke. When E Williams and Plumlee earn PT, they'll get PT. It's been that way for some time now and the head coach has something of a track record in managing his program.

Sometimes I think this board just looks for things to fret about.

Amen Jim!

[SMO]

Sometimes I think this board just looks for things to fret about.

Ya think?

It's always amusing to see once we hit the 3+ page of a post-game thread how the most bizarre critiques of the game show up. We could beat Carolina by 20 at the Ding Dong and someone would find a complaint.

[FerryFor50]

Kyle and Nolan played last year because they were good enough to earn the mins they played. If Williams, Miles and Olek work like they did they will see their mins go up as well. Go Duke!

I think Kyle played last year because he was good enough. Nolan played last year because he had to, especially when Marty went down with his injury, as jimsumner so "kindly" reminded us all of.

I don't care if Olek gets minutes - he's nowhere near ready. I was just pointing out that I thought Plumlee and Williams should be getting 10-12 minutes in a blowout game and people think I'm complaining.

[FerryFor50]

Your initial post was about Singler, Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, McRoberts and Paulus. I disagreed with your sentiments about those guys because MOST of them were pressed into more action due to the reasons I stated. Then you went back another 10-15 years for more examples, some of which were valid, but each of which had a different reasoning behind it. Some were playing as freshmen because they were that good. Some were playing limited minutes.

Ferry played 22.8 MPG as a freshman - why so many? he was the 6th or 7th option
Laettner played about 17 MPG - why so few? Blocked by Ferry, split minutes with the less talented Abdelnaby
McRoberts played 24.5 MPG - why so many? Only big man option after Shelden Williams (unless you count Eric Boateng - would you count him as a recruiting mistake?)
Nolan Smith played 14.7 MPG - why so few? a glut at guard - scheyer, paulus, nelson, henderson
Redick played 30.7 MPG - why so many? he was better than Horvath, Dockery and Melchionni and was the best pure shooter on the team
Gerald Henderson played 19.3 mpg - why so many? 6th or 7th best option
Paulus played 32.3 MPG - why so many? pretty sure Demarcus got hurt that year, so only guards left were Dockery and JJ; heck, even Pocius played 28 games, and Boykin played sparingly before transferring (and ending up a pretty decent player)
Luol Deng played 31.1 mpg - why so many? Freak of nature, obviously, since he was a one and done with a successful NBA career (the golden years of Duke recruiting)

I could go on and on, but the point is, each player played due to some sort of extraneous circumstance outside of the anomalies during the Deng/Brand/Maggette years where those players were just that much better than the ones they currently have. You could also raise the point that other Duke players who didn't get PT either left and became solid players (McCaffrey, Boykin... heck, even Boateng is a decent role player for ASU), or they never panned out to what they could have been (Ricky Price comes to mind), or they became solid players (Sean Dockery comes to mind).

My stance is that I like to see Duke recruits stay and succeed. I think Plumlee and Williams could stay and succeed. I hated that Taylor King transferred, because I could see him playing a big role for Villanova next season, and I'd hate to see a player with potential transfer because they couldn't get playing time in a blowout game. By saying they need to "earn" the playing time, you're inferring that they don't work as hard in practice. So unless you're privy to some information I am not, then your opinions are as qualified as mine are.