Self Reported Recruiting Violation

[grad_devil]

I'm the Faculty Athletic Representative (FAR) at my school, and I sign between 3-8 secondary violations every year. We self-report these, as do most schools in our conference and across the nation. This happens at nearly every school, every year.

The punishments for most of these violations are "Coach xxxxx will review the rule, and promise to never do it again". Really harsh penalties

The red flag to me is when schools report NO secondary violations. This just means they aren't policing themselves at all. They happen. Everywhere. There are so many rules and nuances, that it's near impossible to avoid. There are a couple of D-II conferences in our region that report zero violations year in and year out...yeah right

Having said that, the FARs at each institution must give coaches a yearly examination on recruiting rules. Each one must pass with an 80% (32 out of 40) to prove they know the regulations (and to certify that they can recruit), so ignorance of the rules is never really a defense.

--grad_devil

[throatybeard]

So save the venom

I haven't seen any venom in this thread.

[_Gary]

To probably no one's surprise, this incident (if we can call such a small infraction an "incident") has now made it to ESPN News as a note on the side of the screen that pops up every few minutes.

[patentgeek]

Just to add a slightly different perspective, I have attended various days of the GSK holiday tournament for about 10 years now, and it's very common for college head coaches and their assistants to attend games. Also, this year the tournament is rather oddly scheduled - games on Friday, Saturday, Monday and Tuesday, whereas in the past (at least to my recollection) it has typically been three consecutive days. So it's somewhat odd that the first day of this tournament falls in a dead period, but the rest of the tournament does not.

I'm not trying to deny or downplay the violation, but I can easily see how it could happen, particularly for an assistant coach who's attended this tournament (which is local for him) numerous times in the past - it may simply have never occurred to Coach Collins that the first day of the tournament might be during a blackout period.

[RelativeWays]

UNC fans shouldn't make too much of this considering that Huckleberry Hound got rung up for a secondary recruiting violation during his last year at Kansas. Though, for them, if it didn't happen at UNC, they can pretend it didn't happen at all.

[-bdbd]

This is more embarrassing than actually newsworthy. It is great that we self-reported, but it was still our (Coach Collins') screw up.
Several thoughts on this thread above:

First, it is embarrassing for Duke - b/c WE hold ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was clearly accidental does not excuse the slip up. It happens, many professionals do slip, but I would expect better.

Second, contrary to a couple posters above, there is NO WAY Collins "did this on purpose to send a message to Wall." Duke values its pristine image way too much to risk that valuable rep on a cheap stunt.

Third, I can think of a few "bend the rules but don't totally break them" coaches/schools who might do this sort of thing. But, for better or worse, Duke seems almost religious in its adherence to (and exceeding) the rules standards.

Fourth, I agree with Watzone and Jason Evans -- most likely Duke will take "self-corrective action," such as limiting Collins' contacts in the coming months. No way this warrants NCAA attention.

Fifth, for those newcomers here, Duke actually DID have a real infraction back in the early 70's when a booster, as I recall, gave a leather jacket or some such to a high school Senior who wound up down the road at NCSU. You might have heard of him -- David Thompson... I think the school got something like a year of probation, and a lot of red faces. Just nothing of significant note infraction-wise in the last (apx) 35 years.

Finally, I really like that Duke holds itself to these higher standards. Yes, it probably has cost us a recruit or two over time, but the pristine rep has also WON us some recruits as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-BDBD

[Indoor66]

Fifth, for those newcomers here, Duke actually DID have a real infraction back in the early 70's when a booster, as I recall, gave a leather jacket or some such to a high school Senior who wound up down the road at NCSU. You might have heard of him -- David Thompson... I think the school got something like a year of probation, and a lot of red faces. Just nothing of significant note infraction-wise in the last (apx) 35 years.

Finally, I really like that Duke holds itself to these higher standards. Yes, it probably has cost us a recruit or two over time, but the pristine rep has also WON us some recruits as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-BDBD

It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

[Jim3k]

It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

I also remember that the alum involved was trying to do a good turn. IIRC, he held degrees from both Duke and State and he lent the jacket to Thompson so he would look appropriately dressed for admissions office interviews at both schools (maybe on the same day?). David didn't own a sports jacket, so the alum allowed him to use one of his.

Probation was way too harsh for that.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I honestly had no idea about the Thompson story, I wonder how the same events would play out now. It's easier to judge when you have hindsight on the facts. Still, what a neat tale to tell.

[77devil]

Before some of you hang Chris out to dry, consider the "Holdaze" and ask youself if you have ever gotten mixed up with times and dates. I know some folks who have made a mistake around this time of year in their job.

No Duke Coach would ever willingly break any rule. And BTW, this happens a lot. Schools are constantly reporting infractions to the NCAA, but this being Duke makes it national news and or headline fodder for some.

It was a human mistake involving miscommunication and it happens. So save the venom and research how often this happens in college athletics. This is the case of a media member making it out to be bigger news than it really is.

It would be simple enough to have a process whereby all the coaches/staff must pre-clear attendance at any event through an independent compliance check within the basketball operations office.

[77devil]

It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

Right article of clothing but wrong city. I know the perp.

[geraldsneighbor]

I'm still surprised we are recruiting Wall being he is a PG most-likely a 1 or 2 year player. That is something I thought Duke was shying away from in light of Josh, Deng, and Livingston. Is there really genuine interest of Duke's behalf?

[gep]

Just curious... suppose Wall, or anyone else playing in the game, was not on Duke's recruiting radar... would that still be a secondary violation, especially if it's an annual father-son get-together at a high school game, just for the fun / family thing over Christmas?

[Jim3k]

I'm still surprised we are recruiting Wall being he is a PG most-likely a 1 or 2 year player. That is something I thought Duke was shying away from in light of Josh, Deng, and Livingston. Is there really genuine interest of Duke's behalf?

Maybe it wasn't Chris doing the scouting. Quite possibly it was Doug. After all, he's still a connected pro coach. Maybe he filed a report for draft purposes... I mean after all, Duke wouldn't be interested in a one and done...right? So Chris was there by accident. Case closed.

Or...maybe, it's just a mistake like everyone suggests and the odd dead period wasn't clearly understood.

Trouble is, the NCAA doesn't care. Rulez is rulez and don' you forgit it!

I go for the 'I promise I won't do it again" penalty.

[Olympic Fan]

I also remember that the alum involved was trying to do a good turn. IIRC, he held degrees from both Duke and State and he lent the jacket to Thompson so he would look appropriately dressed for admissions office interviews at both schools (maybe on the same day?). David didn't own a sports jacket, so the alum allowed him to use one of his.

Probation was way too harsh for that.

This story, like the Charlie Scott restaurant story, is so deeply into myth that it's almost impossible to straighten out.

FWIW, the booster in question was not a Duke grad. He lived in Shelby, not Charlotte. When Bucky Waters was recruiting Thompson, he was looking for somebody in the area to help him. Carl James, who had been Bill Murray's chief football recruiter before succeeding Eddie Cameron as athletic director, suggested the booster to Bucky -- he had helped Duke with a number of football recruits.

The booster, acting on Duke's behalf, committed two violations without Waters' knowledge. He did buy Thompson a cheap sports coat for his school's athletic banquet. The coat cost $21 -- in 1970 dollars, about the equivilent to a $50-75 coat today. He also provided Thompson and his coach a ride to the ACC Tournament -- ruled illegal transportation.

Since the booster was acting as an agent for Duke, the school was responsible for his actions. Ignorance of the rules has never been a valid excuse for the NCAA. Bucky probably should have kept a closer watch on the guy, but he apparently figured than since he had helped recruit football prospects before, he knew the rules.

Duke drew a one-year postseason ban for the 1972-73 season. NC State got the exact same penalty for committing 31 violations, most regarding Thompson ... a few involved a Purdue recruit named John Garrett (a guy Duke also recruited).

To be fair, all of the State violations were of the same level as the two Duke violations -- in fact, one involved a very similar illegal transportation charge. Former NC State assistant coach Charlie Bryant had gone into banking in Gastonia and he provided Thompson with a free ride to Raleigh. Other violations included an illegal tryout (assistant coach Eddie Biedenbach joined a pickup game with Thompson) and illegal housing benefits (when Thompson attended Sloan's camp, he slept on the floor of the dorm room of one of his former prep teammates). The only tangible benefit was a free ticket to a Jackson Five concert ... which he received long after he had signed with State.

Interesting point -- with Duke and State both on probation in 1973, ACC officials worried what would happen if they met in the ACC Tournament title game. Plans were made to play a consolation game between the semifinal losers to determine the league's one NCAA entry. That became unnecessary when the two teams ended up in the same side the the tourney bracket (and Duke lost in the first round anyway).

As for Collins' violation, count me among those who refuse to believe it was calculated to impress John Wall. It was a very sloppy piece of work and Collins -- and Duke -- deserve the embarrassment it has generated. True, everybody commits their share of secondary violations (for instance, UNC has committed ... and not self-reported ... one each summer -- the illegal contact between UNC pros and future recruits in 2007; the coaches watching the Barak Obama pickup game in 2008). It's still embarrassing because we hold Duke to a higher standard.

Violations such as these only become a problem when they are systematic and hidden. One or two inadvertant illegal phone calls to recruits, reported to the NCAA, warren a slap on the wrist. Widespread illegal calls, hidden from the NCAA, then continued after exposure and a minor penalty, warrent what happened to Kelvin Sampson.

[jv001]

This story, like the Charlie Scott restaurant story, is so deeply into myth that it's almost impossible to straighten out.

FWIW, the booster in question was not a Duke grad. He lived in Shelby, not Charlotte. When Bucky Waters was recruiting Thompson, he was looking for somebody in the area to help him. Carl James, who had been Bill Murray's chief football recruiter before succeeding Eddie Cameron as athletic director, suggested the booster to Bucky -- he had helped Duke with a number of football recruits.

The booster, acting on Duke's behalf, committed two violations without Waters' knowledge. He did buy Thompson a cheap sports coat for his school's athletic banquet. The coat cost $21 -- in 1970 dollars, about the equivilent to a $50-75 coat today. He also provided Thompson and his coach a ride to the ACC Tournament -- ruled illegal transportation.

Since the booster was acting as an agent for Duke, the school was responsible for his actions. Ignorance of the rules has never been a valid excuse for the NCAA. Bucky probably should have kept a closer watch on the guy, but he apparently figured than since he had helped recruit football prospects before, he knew the rules.

Duke drew a one-year postseason ban for the 1972-73 season. NC State got the exact same penalty for committing 31 violations, most regarding Thompson ... a few involved a Purdue recruit named John Garrett (a guy Duke also recruited).

To be fair, all of the State violations were of the same level as the two Duke violations -- in fact, one involved a very similar illegal transportation charge. Former NC State assistant coach Charlie Bryant had gone into banking in Gastonia and he provided Thompson with a free ride to Raleigh. Other violations included an illegal tryout (assistant coach Eddie Biedenbach joined a pickup game with Thompson) and illegal housing benefits (when Thompson attended Sloan's camp, he slept on the floor of the dorm room of one of his former prep teammates). The only tangible benefit was a free ticket to a Jackson Five concert ... which he received long after he had signed with State.

Interesting point -- with Duke and State both on probation in 1973, ACC officials worried what would happen if they met in the ACC Tournament title game. Plans were made to play a consolation game between the semifinal losers to determine the league's one NCAA entry. That became unnecessary when the two teams ended up in the same side the the tourney bracket (and Duke lost in the first round anyway).

As for Collins' violation, count me among those who refuse to believe it was calculated to impress John Wall. It was a very sloppy piece of work and Collins -- and Duke -- deserve the embarrassment it has generated. True, everybody commits their share of secondary violations (for instance, UNC has committed ... and not self-reported ... one each summer -- the illegal contact between UNC pros and future recruits in 2007; the coaches watching the Barak Obama pickup game in 2008). It's still embarrassing because we hold Duke to a higher standard.

Violations such as these only become a problem when they are systematic and hidden. One or two inadvertant illegal phone calls to recruits, reported to the NCAA, warren a slap on the wrist. Widespread illegal calls, hidden from the NCAA, then continued after exposure and a minor penalty, warrent what happened to Kelvin Sampson.

Thanks for the information on The DT sport coat violation. I remembered some of the story but not all of it. As far as Collins not knowing the dates for the tourney, he should have. Duke reported it and let's hope it's over with. Go Duke!

[snowdenscold]

Having said that, the FARs at each institution must give coaches a yearly examination on recruiting rules. Each one must pass with an 80% (32 out of 40) to prove they know the regulations (and to certify that they can recruit), so ignorance of the rules is never really a defense.

Wouldn't that mean up to 8 out of 40 times ignorance is a defense?