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  1. #1

    Barnes on K scheduling

    I was on my way home tonight and somehow flipping through AM channels I found the Rick Barnes radio show. He was discussing his schedule for next year (UNC, UCONN and Michigan State by the way) and he mentioned trying really hard to get a home and home with Duke. He then said the home and home fell through so they were trying to get two neutral site games. He then stated, “ Mike thinks New Jersey or Durham North is a neutral site game and I can’t convince him to even play in Arlington or Dallas so we asked Roy and he never hesitated to play us”.

    Thought that was very interesting. Would be great to see Duke play Texas.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by The1Bluedevil View Post
    I was on my way home tonight and somehow flipping through AM channels I found the Rick Barnes radio show. He was discussing his schedule for next year (UNC, UCONN and Michigan State by the way) and he mentioned trying really hard to get a home and home with Duke. He then said the home and home fell through so they were trying to get two neutral site games. He then stated, “ Mike thinks New Jersey or Durham North is a neutral site game and I can’t convince him to even play in Arlington or Dallas so we asked Roy and he never hesitated to play us”.

    Thought that was very interesting. Would be great to see Duke play Texas.
    Duke was supposed to play Texas in Houston several years back. But TJ left for the NBA, and somehow that game got rescheduled to MSG.

    Enough coaches have raised this as complaint, but the thing is, we played Big Ten challenge and Michigan on road this year. We can't play everyone, so when we turn teams down they complain. I love Rick Barnes and what he's done for UT basketball But I imagine it's more complicated than he made it out to be on the radio show and that we have other plans those years he was trying to schedule us.

    That all being said -- K should really, really try to start scheduling one game a year in Texas (selfishly ). It is becoming a real recuriting hotbed and I'd love for us to start pulling recruits regularly from Texas.

  3. #3
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    Jan 2008
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    Texas/NC
    Hey Barnes, win a few championships and then you can start ruling the scheduling world with an iron fist like K.

    I think K schedules in the most intelligent way possible. He schedules to the committee in order to give his team the best possible starting position come March... and those who say we don't play enough OOC road games simply CANNOT explain how not playing such games hurt us in March in any logical way. It's not like there is a correlation between OOC road games played or won and success in march.

  4. #4
    One can look at it two ways for winning programs

    1. Why play multiple tough road or neutral site games because how many of those will one face in March?

    2. Why not play multiple tough road games so one is ready for any atmosphere and is proven they can step away from their own building?

    Kansas played a neutral site game against USC in California and at B.C. . Not what I call a brutal non con, but I guess when a team is that talented why do it?

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    I think K schedules in the most intelligent way possible. He schedules to the committee in order to give his team the best possible starting position come March... and those who say we don't play enough OOC road games simply CANNOT explain how not playing such games hurt us in March in any logical way. It's not like there is a correlation between OOC road games played or won and success in march.
    I don't think that this perspective is very accurate. I have to look back at the schedules but IIRC Duke played many difficult OOC road games during the late 80's and early 90's and we had pretty good tournament success back then. I remember that during that stretch we had home-and-home's against Arizona, Kansas, Michigan, I think Georgetown and toward the end of the golden era UCLA (not all in the same years). Now contrast that with the OOC road schedule of the past few years:

    '08 - Toughest OOC road game: Davidson (note: but not on their normal home court). We also played Marquette (ranked # 11) and *Pitt (ranked #11) on neutral sites
    '07 - Toughest OOC road game: St. Johns (note: At MSG, again not their normal home court). We also played Marquette (ranked # 13) and *Gonzaga on neutral sites
    '06 - Toughest OOC road games: Indiana (ranked # 17) and Georgetown (not ranked). We also played *Memphis (ranked #11) and Texas (ranked #2) on neutral sites.
    '05 - Toughest OOC road game: St. Johns (note: At MSG, again not their normal home court). We also played *Oklahoma on neutral site.
    '04 - Toughest OOC road games: Michigan St. (ranked #5) and Georgetown (not ranked). We also played Purdue and *Texas (ranked #11) on neutral sites.

    Only '04 and '06 had a truly big OOC road game and more than 2 truly tough OOC non home games. '04 was a final four year and '06 we were ranked #1 most of the year. I don't think that schedule difficulty can be blamed for the '06 early exit but you could make the case that '04's team may have been helped by the additional tough games.

  6. #6
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    Jan 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancem View Post
    I don't think that this perspective is very accurate. I have to look back at the schedules but IIRC Duke played many difficult OOC road games during the late 80's and early 90's and we had pretty good tournament success back then. I remember that during that stretch we had home-and-home's against Arizona, Kansas, Michigan, I think Georgetown and toward the end of the golden era UCLA (not all in the same years). Now contrast that with the OOC road schedule of the past few years:

    '08 - Toughest OOC road game: Davidson (note: but not on their normal home court). We also played Marquette (ranked # 11) and *Pitt (ranked #11) on neutral sites
    '07 - Toughest OOC road game: St. Johns (note: At MSG, again not their normal home court). We also played Marquette (ranked # 13) and *Gonzaga on neutral sites
    '06 - Toughest OOC road games: Indiana (ranked # 17) and Georgetown (not ranked). We also played *Memphis (ranked #11) and Texas (ranked #2) on neutral sites.
    '05 - Toughest OOC road game: St. Johns (note: At MSG, again not their normal home court). We also played *Oklahoma on neutral site.
    '04 - Toughest OOC road games: Michigan St. (ranked #5) and Georgetown (not ranked). We also played Purdue and *Texas (ranked #11) on neutral sites.

    Only '04 and '06 had a truly big OOC road game and more than 2 truly tough OOC non home games. '04 was a final four year and '06 we were ranked #1 most of the year. I don't think that schedule difficulty can be blamed for the '06 early exit but you could make the case that '04's team may have been helped by the additional tough games.
    Unfortunately, selective data presentation is not too convincing. If you look at the NCAA champions for the last 20 years and the OOC Road games they played, there is no significant correlation between quality of those teams and success in March. I do not feel like running the regresssion or posting the data since I am a bit short on time this time of year, but I would encourage you to look into it.

  7. #7
    I would love to see us playing Texas AT Texas. In fact i would love us to play anyone out west.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Someone tell Rick (formerly and fondly, Mr. "Hack a heel") Barnes that he should sign up for the Mauii field next time Duke is in it and he will get his wish.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    Someone tell Rick (formerly and fondly, Mr. "Hack a heel") Barnes that he should sign up for the Mauii field next time Duke is in it and he will get his wish.
    Signing up for the Maui would get him a home-and-home game with Duke? How?

    Barnes was saying he wanted to do a "home and home" but Duke refused to come to Texas to play. I'm not sure how Maui would constitute a home-and-home.

  10. #10
    Speaking of Maui, are the Devils playing in a preseason tourney next year? Maryland is competing in the 2009 Maui Invitational.

    gw67

  11. #11

    Madison Square Garden

    In fairness, MSG is considered home court for St. John's. While it is not on their campus, they play a number of their games there (8 home games plus 2 early season tournament games) and it is listed on their website as one of their athletic facilities. Carnesecca Fieldhouse hosts the greatest number of their games, but these games are largely against weaker opponents. All of their biggest marquee home games are at MSG.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by The1Bluedevil View Post
    I was on my way home tonight and somehow flipping through AM channels I found the Rick Barnes radio show. He was discussing his schedule for next year (UNC, UCONN and Michigan State by the way) and he mentioned trying really hard to get a home and home with Duke. He then said the home and home fell through so they were trying to get two neutral site games. He then stated, “ Mike thinks New Jersey or Durham North is a neutral site game and I can’t convince him to even play in Arlington or Dallas so we asked Roy and he never hesitated to play us”.

    Thought that was very interesting. Would be great to see Duke play Texas.
    Jim Calhoun said something similar a few years back, except K wanted to play UConn at Cameron and then have UConn's return home game be at MSG/Izod. Calhoun obviously said no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    In fairness, MSG is considered home court for St. John's. While it is not on their campus, they play a number of their games there (8 home games plus 2 early season tournament games) and it is listed on their website as one of their athletic facilities. Carnesecca Fieldhouse hosts the greatest number of their games, but these games are largely against weaker opponents. All of their biggest marquee home games are at MSG.
    Technically yes, but don't kid yourself into thinking that Duke playing at MSG is a road game, even if St. John's is the home team. Too many alumni in the stands for that to be true.

  13. #13
    I personally miss the true road games. I enjoyed the fact we got to play Purdue and Michigan at their house this season. That is great entertainment. Win or lose it is exciting. I miss how Coach K used to do a true home and home series. I hate this we'll play you at Cameron but play your home game on a neutral site crap. I remember Duke going to Arizona, LSU, Michigan, Oklahoma, to name a few. Those were great games and nothing is better than seeing Duke silence a frenzied crowd.

    Not saying it makes Duke a better team by doing that. Just saying it is fun. I'm also sure I will get the usual "who are you to criticze Coach K" comment.

  14. #14
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    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Man View Post
    I personally miss the true road games. I enjoyed the fact we got to play Purdue and Michigan at their house this season. That is great entertainment. Win or lose it is exciting. I miss how Coach K used to do a true home and home series. I hate this we'll play you at Cameron but play your home game on a neutral site crap. I remember Duke going to Arizona, LSU, Michigan, Oklahoma, to name a few. Those were great games and nothing is better than seeing Duke silence a frenzied crowd.

    Not saying it makes Duke a better team by doing that. Just saying it is fun. I'm also sure I will get the usual "who are you to criticze Coach K" comment.
    Not from me you won't. I agree it just fuels the argument from the Duke haters we are afraid to schedule home and home against the better teams. I think it would help us in the long run. Go Duke!

  15. #15

    Most NCAA crowds are hostile to Duke

    Pretty much any NCAA tourney game will be in front of a hostile crowd. Several years ago I went to a first round game in Raleigh and that crowd was hostile to duke (lots of UNC and State fans).

    I think everyone, including the players would enjoy playing in some of the storied arenas in the country. Wish we did more. I think the big boys should play each other more often. Losing a few games is healthy if they are against good teams.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kexman View Post
    Pretty much any NCAA tourney game will be in front of a hostile crowd. Several years ago I went to a first round game in Raleigh and that crowd was hostile to duke (lots of UNC and State fans).
    Yep, and even last year at the Verizon Center in DC (a city where there are a lot of Duke alumni) when there were no UNC fans it was a very hostile crowd. Part of that was just people in general like to cheer for the underdog, but, of course, it didn't hurt that most people don't like Duke. The Duke vs. Belmont game was most definitely an away game, and I doubt there were many Belmont fans there.

  17. #17

    road games

    I must admit that this issue always baffles me.

    What is the magic about "out of conference" road games?

    Duke ALWAYS plays eight ACC road games. Is that not enough to teach the team to play in front of hostile crowds? Is Mackey Arena a better training ground than the Smith Center or the Comcast Center in College Park?

    A year ago, Duke won on the road at North Carolina and Maryland. We won at Virginia Tech and FSU and NC State and Virginia. We lost at Wake Forest and at Miami.

    That wasn't enough of a lesson on the road? Are you suggesting that playing Temple in the Licourous Center instead of the NBA arena (I forget what corporate name it has this week) would have made Duke better prepared for Belmont and West Virginia?

    Selectively citing several years past is a futile gesture. You want selective history ... okay, let's look at 2001 -- Duke's last national title. Duke beat Texas and Temple in Madison Square Garden in the preseason NIT ... Duke beat Illinois on a "neutral" court in Greensboro. A week later, Duke played Temple in Philly -- but it doesn't count as a road game since the game was in a pro arena, not Temple's on-campus arena.

    Duke later played Portland in Portland, but again, it was in the Rose Garden and not on campus. It was a homecoming game for Mike Dunleavy and the crowd wasn't very hostile. On the same trip, Duke played Stanford in the Oakland Coliseum -- another pro arena (although that crowd WAS hostile). Late in the season, Duke played St. John's in Madison Square Garden ... but as several posters in this thread have suggested, that doesn't count as a real road game either.

    That's it -- seven OOC games away from Cameron ... four played in or near the home city of the opponent, but NONE played on an OOC opponents' home court.

    How could that team have possibly succeeded in postseason without playing a single true OOC road game?

    The fact is that I don't buy the whining about not playing OOC road games. It's gotten so ridiculous that some critics even discount games such as at Michigan State, at Indiana and at Purdue in the ACC-Big Ten Challenge because we "had" to play them.

    I might buy all the criticism if Duke was dodging ACC road road games too. But I was believe that whatever benefits there are to playing on the road in front of implacably hostile crowds is something K's teams get in spades in places like Chapel Hill, College Park, Winston-Salem, Charlottesville, Atlanta ...

    Eight "true" road games a year are enough. I'll play my other out-of-Cameron games in the same kind of big arenas that host NCAA games.

    PS ... I've been at every Duke NCAA game this decade except the loss to VCU in Buffalo two years ago. The only time Duke has faced a hostile NCAA crowd was in Charlotte in 2005. There were a lot of reasons for that, but it was an unusual situation having to do with UNC also being sent there -- and since UNC was expected to be in Charlotte all that season, the Tar Heel people bought up all the tickets before Duke was surprisingly sent there at the last moment. Last year in Washington was a pretty normal NCAA crowd -- a lot of Duke people, but when Belmont hung tough, the rest of the crowd rallied to their side ... that's a normal NCAA reaction, to pull for the underdog.

    Duke's last NCAA trip to Raleigh was in 2004 ... if anybody thinks that crowd was hostile, you are entirely too sensitive -- it was an overwhelmingly pro-Duke crowd.

  18. #18
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by gw67 View Post
    Speaking of Maui, are the Devils playing in a preseason tourney next year? Maryland is competing in the 2009 Maui Invitational.

    gw67
    I believe next year should be P-NIT.
    ___________________
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    Trinity '97, Tent #1 '97
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  19. #19
    I think the more marquee non-conference match ups the better not just for Duke but also for the sport in general. I listen to national sports talk and they hardly ever talk college basketball this time of year but if Duke was playing UCONN, UCLA, KANSAS or any other big time school people would be interested.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    I think Olympic fan makes a good point. Should Duke ever become a bubble team, or should the ACC ever fall to mid-major status where a winning conference record plus at least 18-20 wins doesn't get you in the tourney, maybe we should consider more true road games. In the meantime, we get plenty of hostile crowds in the ACC -- if that is why you think true road games are important.

    I think neutral site/road games against good out of conference competition is important for 2 reasons (neither of which requires Duke to play in a teams home gym, necessarily):

    1. Recruiting - obviously.
    2. It allows our team to play against good competition with non-ACC refs, which is also something you typically get in pre-season tourneys as well. I watch a lot of Big XII and ACC over the past few years and the games are played and called differently in conference for each league. There are more fouls and whistles in the ACC. Teams get to the penalty faster in the ACC. This is a combo of style of play and officiating tendencies, but it's good experience to face this -- and I don't think it requires home and homes to do so.

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