Wooden on Raising the Rim

[CameronBornAndBred]

I didn't read the article, the link is not to the correct story. But I've read the same idea before and I think it's incredibly stupid. The rules of basketball are constantly being changed, so much so that from the time I started watching games in Cameron to now, it's an entirely different experience. I guess that's the point, but when the game is physically changed I start having reservations. I don't think anyone has much of a problem with the shot clock. I remember witnessing some serious snoozers in the distant past. I agree that the 3 point line was a good idea and a benefit to the game. But I don't really agree with it being pushed back, and I definitely don't agree with rim raising. Has baseball made their bats skinnier? Has soccer decreased the size of it's goals? Hell, tennis rackets got BIGGER (they shouldn't have). I'm sorry, but the game of basketball has not become so easy that we need to alter the dimensions of the court and height of the hoop. There are some incredibly gifted players that can make it LOOK easy, but they are the ones that make it fun to watch. It's also fun to watch the other team throw up a bunch of bricks. They aren't missing because the basket is too low.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents. To the powers that be, don't go messing with the physical attributes of the game. Go invent a new sport instead.

[doctorhook]

This controversy has been around awhile and was seriously discussed when Wilt and Kareem played. I always liked Bill Russell's response. He said if you are trying to make the game more fair for the shorter guys, you should lower the rim, not raise it. Doc

[jlear]

link

[Olympic Fan]

This is a bad idea that's been around for a long time. I remember back in 1974, just before the great State-UCLA game in the semifinals, they played a Friday night demonstration game in the Greensboro Coliseum (Davidson was one of the teams ... not sure about the other) with 11-foot baskets.

The game was a mess and not much came out of it except a classic quote from Abe Lemons, who said, "Why don't we just cut a hole in the floor, then we'd all be running around giving Cadillacs to midgets?"

Keep in mind one thing when you hear this discussed -- the college men realistically couldn't change the height of their basket without a similar change in the NBA rules. Could you imagine how NBA dream prospects would feel about messing up their games by learning the game on a 10-foot basket, then playing a year with 11-foot baskets before returning to 10-foot baskets? How many would follow the path of Brandon Jennings and skip college altogether?

This ain't gonna happen.

[ncexnyc]

Has baseball made their bats skinnier? Has soccer decreased the size of it's goals?

As a matter of fact the size of bats has drastically changed. Checkout some of the beasts they used in the early 20th century and compare them to the bats used today. They're also currently investigating the use of maple in the manufacture of bats as opposed to the traditional ash for safety reasons. From college on down the standard is the metal bat, however the pros still use wood. That's an adjustment players are forced to make when they make it to the big time.

Hockey is another sport that has drastically altered it's playing surface. The area behind the net and around the crease has been changed and they altered those lovely colored lines that ran across the rinks.

[DisplacedBlueDevil]

I enjoyed the game much more when the emphasis was on team play, not slam dunks and 3 pointers. The ACC used to be the leader in finesse/skill basketball and teams used to run offenses - much more pleasing to the eye. It's like we've taken the Chicago symphony and turned it into American Idol (of course, we know which gets the better ratings ). I almost (almost) enjoy watching girls/women play more today...

Let's bring back the skills of yore: 11', 24', widen by 10', lengthen by 20'.

JJ would still reign the 3.

[mgtr]

Well, a collateral issue is raised here (along with the basket height). If we have an 11 foot rim, who, among either current or past players, could still dunk the basketball? I say Dwight Howard, for one. Probably not too many others.

[RainingThrees]

I enjoyed the game much more when the emphasis was on team play, not slam dunks and 3 pointers. The ACC used to be the leader in finesse/skill basketball and teams used to run offenses - much more pleasing to the eye. It's like we've taken the Chicago symphony and turned it into American Idol (of course, we know which gets the better ratings ). I almost (almost) enjoy watching girls/women play more today...

Let's bring back the skills of yore: 11', 24', widen by 10', lengthen by 20'.

JJ would still reign the 3.

Can the average female basketball player dunk? That puts an end to which is my favorite to watch. Unless there is a female equivalent to Kobe.

[RainingThrees]

Well, a collateral issue is raised here (along with the basket height). If we have an 11 foot rim, who, among either current or past players, could still dunk the basketball? I say Dwight Howard, for one. Probably not too many others.

Not Shaq, too fat...

[Cameron]

John Wooden is obviously a legend -- whether that's because of the ten titles, his obvious position as one of basketball's most influential figures, his All-American days at Purdue, or for the mere fact he may have been the best cheat sport has ever seen. But he's obviously off his rocker (literally, nowadays, I would assume).

Raise the rim to 11 feet? My goodness, what a lunatic. I've listened to him babble about this for years and it's still the most ridiculous thing I've heard concerning basketball rule change. I'm not even sure it warrants comment. The day it happens is probably the day I quit watching.

[dukemomLA]

Any of us who discount what Wooden has to say... are IMHO...stupid.

He is a legend and has done more for college BB than anyone. He's a lovely, humble and gracious man and does not speak 'off the cuff' or without forethought. He has always been judicious with his comments.

If he says "raise the rim" I for one am listening. If he says "back off the 3-pt line" I for one am listening. He's been in the past an amazing coach. In the present he is someone who follows the game daily and attends as many games as his health allows.

Whatever Wooden says, I give GREAT serious thought.

[Olympic Fan]

Any of us who discount what Wooden has to say... are IMHO...stupid.

He is a legend and has done more for college BB than anyone. He's a lovely, humble and gracious man and does not speak 'off the cuff' or without forethought. He has always been judicious with his comments.

If he says "raise the rim" I for one am listening. If he says "back off the 3-pt line" I for one am listening. He's been in the past an amazing coach. In the present he is someone who follows the game daily and attends as many games as his health allows.

Whatever Wooden says, I give GREAT serious thought.

And if Wooden says "Forget that you ever heard the name Sam Gilbert" I guess you're buying that too.

[AtlDuke72]

And if Wooden says "Forget that you ever heard the name Sam Gilbert" I guess you're buying that too.

This non-sequitur is just uncalled for. John Wooden knows more about basketball than you could ever hope to know. I agree that if he thinks raising the rim would make for a better game it is worth looking at. Maybe 11 feet is too high. Maybe 101/2. How do you know until it is tried at some level? Kids play at lower heights and eventually get to 10 feet. I don't think it would work either but Coach Wooden knows a lot more than me.

[AtlDuke72]

John Wooden is obviously a legend -- whether that's because of the ten titles, his obvious position as one of basketball's most influential figures, his All-American days at Purdue, or for the mere fact he may have been the best cheat sport has ever seen. But he's obviously off his rocker (literally, nowadays, I would assume).

Raise the rim to 11 feet? My goodness, what a lunatic. I've listened to him babble about this for years and it's still the most ridiculous thing I've heard concerning basketball rule change. I'm not even sure it warrants comment. The day it happens is probably the day I quit watching.

This is one of the most obnoxious and unwarranted posts in the history of DBR. To call John Wooden a cheat , "off his rocker" and a lunatic is just uncalled for. You should be ashamed.

[greybeard]

Wooden was ambivolent on raising the rim. He said it might be worth trying. What he wasn't ambivolent about, and hasn't been for years, is dunking.

He thinks and has long thought that dunking is nothing but showmanship that detracts from skilled play underneath the basket and should be done away with. Finishing around the rim without the option of dunking, particularly for the bigs, separates individuals who are clever and creative from the dolts.

More importantly, it creates more clever, creative players; makes individuals grow in ways that they otherwise might not, in ways that no coach can "demand." Ordering a big guy who is near the basket to throw it down or sit down is not COACHING. It is BULLYING. It takes the game out of the player's hands; it takes the mind out of the player's game; and it leads inexorably to the type of physical play around the basket that is contrary to the rules as written, and therefore by definition impairs the integrity of the game.

It ain't just me who is saying this. It is Wooden, and on this he is crystal clear. Has been for years.

[Wander]

Sometimes people who were leading experts in a sport decades ago have an inability to see how times have changed, and as a result their comments aren't really relevant anymore, or in some cases downright stupid.

The best example of this in college basketball is Billy Packer a few years ago ranting quite angrily about the mid-majors getting too many at-large bids compared to the ACC and whoever else. A few weeks later, two Missouri Valley teams are in the Sweet 16 and George Mason is in the Final Four. He showed a very genuine lack of understanding at where the sport of college basketball was at in 2006.

Or if you want a comparison with another coach, just turn on ESPN during college football season and watch Lou Holtz. It's sad really, but the dude often has absolutely no clue what he's talking about anymore.

[allenmurray]

. . . enough with the beatification. His relationship with a booster who paid players and showered them with gifts is pretty well known. Even Bill Walton has written about it. By the standards of his day it was less problematic than by today's standards as the NCAA did very little in the way of enforcement. But it happened. If even a small portion of that kind of thing happened in a program under today's scrutiny Wooden would be bounced. UCLA was placed on probation almost immediately after Wooden's retirement. The NCAA was not going to investigate UCLA while their golden boy was coaching, but as soon as he stepped down the infractions that took place during the 70s, because of the very close ties of the players to a well known booster, led to the program being put on probation. Wooden claims to have not known anything about the relationship between players and Gilbert, but it seems clear from the comments of UCLA players that it was a case of Wooden choosing to look the other way. It is not to say he was not a great coach or a great man, but he is hardly flawless.

This is one of the most obnoxious and unwarranted posts in the history of DBR. To call John Wooden a cheat . . . is just uncalled for. You should be ashamed.

He is a legend and has done more for college BB than anyone. He's a lovely, humble and gracious man

This non-sequitur (my note - the mentioning of Gilbert)is just uncalled for.

Kids play at lower heights and eventually get to 10 feet. I don't think it would work either but Coach Wooden knows a lot more than me.

Kids play at lower heights because they lack the arm/upper body strength to develop proper shooting form with a 10 foot basket. If 6 or 7 year olds played on a 10 foot basket they would have to throw the ball rather than shoot it, and therefore develop bad habits and muscle memory. In most youth legues the rim is gradually raised from 8 to 10 feet, but it is rare for anyone over 11 years old to play on anything other than a 10 foot basket.

[AtlDuke72]

. . . enough with the beatification. His relationship with a booster who paid players and showered them with gifts is pretty well known. Even Bill Walton has written about it. By the standards of his day it was less problematic than by today's standards as the NCAA did very little in the way of enforcement. But it happened. If even a small portion of that kind of thing happened in a program under today's scrutiny Wooden would be bounced. UCLA was placed on probation almost immediately after Wooden's retirement. The NCAA was not going to investigate UCLA while their golden boy was coaching, but as soon as he stepped down the infractions that took place during the 70s, because of the very close ties of the players to a well known booster, led to the program being put on probation. Wooden claims to have not known anything about the relationship between players and Gilbert, but it seems clear from the comments of UCLA players that it was a case of Wooden choosing to look the other way. It is not to say he was not a great coach or a great man, but he is hardly flawless.

The issue was whether changing the height of the basket, or eliminating dunking, would improve the game. Somehow allegations of recruiting violations got brought into the discussion along with statements that Coach Wooden was "off his rocker " and a lunatic. These comments are wrong for so many reasons. This is not "beatification" it is just just commen courtesy and respect for an elderly man admired by most of the country.




Kids play at lower heights because they lack the arm/upper body strength to develop proper shooting form with a 10 foot basket. If 6 or 7 year olds played on a 10 foot basket they would have to throw the ball rather than shoot it, and therefore develop bad habits and muscle memory. In most youth legues the rim is gradually raised from 8 to 10 feet, but it is rare for anyone over 11 years old to play on anything other than a 10 foot basket.

Calling Coach Wooden a lunatic and saying he is 'off his rocker" is wrong for so many reasons. Having respect for the man is not "beatification" - it is common courtesy and respect for an elderly man who has deserved it. If you can't see that I have nothing mort to say to you.

The point of my statement about kids shooting to a lower basket is that the players can learn to shoot to a different height. Doing away with dunking , or limiting it to the truly exceptional player, might make the game more entertaining.

[greybeard]

. Kids play at lower heights because they lack the arm/upper body strength to develop proper shooting form with a 10 foot basket.

Picking nits here, but I doubt very much that it is an issue of arm strength. Shooting involves the transfer of energy from the ground, through a series of excelerates to the release point, which is set off by pronation of the hand and the ball rolling up a changing incline off the finger tips. The problem for younger kids is that this machine that the hand forms with the forearm is too pliant; the bones that form the wrist are too gelatenous, and therefore the lever that multiplies the force being applied to the ball by all else that took place does not get multiplied when the levers that comprise the shooting machine are made of soft stuff. Once the wrist bones firm up, the machine works, and the same undermuscled kid has no trouble shooting on a basket of regular height.

Playing with the smaller and much lighter ball is a very good thing, as are the lower rims.

Higher rims for big people I don't think is a good idea. I wouldn't be opposed to doing away with the dunk (you think!)

Wooden it seems to me knowlingly broke the rules, stupid as they were (are), he had to have known. Big deal. The guy won multiple championships with teams that were not on paper better than any of a number of competitors; his teams just played the game better. That, it seems to me, is Wooden's enduring legacy, that and the fact that he was an outstanding educator. So his guys dressed nice. Who cares.

And, the Walton and Alcindar teams that were better than everyone else, well, no one believes that those two guys went to UCLA because of the favors that alum could provide them. No one believes that there wasn't a guy like him or two or 20 associated with every major program back then, do they?

[dukelifer]

Picking nits here, but I doubt very much that it is an issue of arm strength. Shooting involves the transfer of energy from the ground, through a series of excelerates to the release point, which is set off by pronation of the hand and the ball rolling up a changing incline off the finger tips. The problem for younger kids is that this machine that the hand forms with the forearm is too pliant; the bones that form the wrist are too gelatenous, and therefore the lever that multiplies the force being applied to the ball by all else that took place does not get multiplied when the levers that comprise the shooting machine are made of soft stuff. Once the wrist bones firm up, the machine works, and the same undermuscled kid has no trouble shooting on a basket of regular height.

Playing with the smaller and much lighter ball is a very good thing, as are the lower rims.

Higher rims for big people I don't think is a good idea. I wouldn't be opposed to doing away with the dunk (you think!)

Wooden it seems to me knowlingly broke the rules, stupid as they were (are), he had to have known. Big deal. The guy won multiple championships with teams that were not on paper better than any of a number of competitors; his teams just played the game better. That, it seems to me, is Wooden's enduring legacy, that and the fact that he was an outstanding educator. So his guys dressed nice. Who cares.

And, the Walton and Alcindar teams that were better than everyone else, well, no one believes that those two guys went to UCLA because of the favors that alum could provide them. No one believes that there wasn't a guy like him or two or 20 associated with every major program back then, do they?

It would be great if basketball was uniform at all levels- same rules-same distance of the three point line- same width of the lane - same time played etc. The fact that you play one game in high school- another in college- another in the pros and another in the Olympics makes no sense. Maybe if everyone played the same game at every level- players would have one set of fundamentals to learn and the game would be better for it.