Coldplay versus Satriani

[alteran]

Anybody been following this one? For those that haven't, Joe Satriani is suing ColdPlay because of similarities between Viva La Vida and Satriani's instrumental song, "If I Could Fly," the title of which is so banal as to defy the power of sarcasm.

One the one hand, the songs sound pretty similar:

Satriani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcjXo8ZuqE
Coldplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE

On the other hand, as an underpracticing amateur musician, I'm trying to think of something more obvious than playing Em, C, D, G over and over, with changes exclusively on the first beat of each measure-- which both songs are doing.

Anyhow, thoughts?

One thing that I'm SURE of, is that I love the internets! Why, because it was inevitable that someone found THIS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XnhFR73wOs

If there's any justice, this Miami-Vice-looking Euro-dance goofball will sue Satriani into whole new tax bracket.

[snowdenscold]

The mashup with the two songs done together is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw...eature=related

The thing about [western] music is that there are really only 12 pitches and there are only so many chords and non-yucky progressions as well. With the hundreds of thousands of songs in classical and non-classical music out there, I bet everything is a copy of something else at this point. Cause IV-V-I has never been done before, right?

[2535Miles]

Anybody been following this one? For those that haven't, Joe Satriani is suing ColdPlay because of similarities between Viva La Vida and Satriani's instrumental song, "If I Could Fly," the title of which is so banal as to defy the power of sarcasm.

One the one hand, the songs sound pretty similar:

Satriani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcjXo8ZuqE
Coldplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE

On the other hand, as an underpracticing amateur musician, I'm trying to think of something more obvious than playing Em, C, D, G over and over, with changes exclusively on the first beat of each measure-- which both songs are doing.

Anyhow, thoughts?

One thing that I'm SURE of, is that I love the internets! Why, because it was inevitable that someone found THIS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XnhFR73wOs

If there's any justice, this Miami-Vice-looking Euro-dance goofball will sue Satriani into whole new tax bracket.

They DJ's on 94.9 (one of the best rock stations in the world) played the mashup and read some lines from the lawsuit. When I listen to the mashup, I think "wow those song work well together" but I don't think "OMG it's a ripoff". Listening to the songs separately I feel like they are two totally different songs, and Cold Play's song is superior.

Why did it take six months to file the lawsuit? Anyone lawyers have any insight that would explain why it took so long?

[alteran]

The mashup with the two songs done together is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw...eature=related

The thing about [western] music is that there are really only 12 pitches and there are only so many chords and non-yucky progressions as well. With the hundreds of thousands of songs in classical and non-classical music out there, I bet everything is a copy of something else at this point. Cause IV-V-I has never been done before, right?

Agreed. There are MILLIONS of songs, and just so much that sounds good together.

Check out this-- an Enanitos Verdes song "Frances Limon" released a couple years before "If I Could Fly."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLt_Hu8bHFc&NR=1

This guy/group's got a WAY better case against Satriani than Satriani has against Coldplay.

[2535Miles]

Agreed. There are MILLIONS of songs, and just so much that sounds good together.

Check out this-- an Enanitos Verdes song "Frances Limon" released a couple years before "If I Could Fly."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLt_Hu8bHFc&NR=1

This guy/group's got a WAY better case against Satriani than Satriani has against Coldplay.

Oh snap!

[Acymetric]

The mashup with the two songs done together is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw...eature=related

The thing about [western] music is that there are really only 12 pitches and there are only so many chords and non-yucky progressions as well. With the hundreds of thousands of songs in classical and non-classical music out there, I bet everything is a copy of something else at this point. Cause IV-V-I has never been done before, right?

I don't think the issue is the chord progression. The melodies are very similar.

On the other hand, as an (extremely) amateur musician, its really difficult to create something that doesn't sound like something that already exists. I wouldn't presume to say it was or wasn't a ripoff, only the members of Coldplay could tell you that. I will say that, terrible as the name is, I prefer Satriani's song to Coldplay's.

Oh, and Gunther is just plain incredible. If you need to laugh hysterically, check out his music videos (sometimes difficult to find, they're not always on youtube). Most excellent. Or go to his website and read his description. Its ridiculously awful, in the best way.

I'll also add that I have a lot of problems with current copyright laws. Not that I'm an expert, but I know some, and I don't think copyrights are currently having the effect they were designed to have in the past.

[2535Miles]

I'll also add that I have a lot of problems with current copyright laws. Not that I'm an expert, but I know some, and I don't think copyrights are currently having the effect they were designed to have in the past.

Agreed. See Danger Mouse's Grey Album.

[Acymetric]

Agreed. See Danger Mouse's Grey Album.

One of my favorite books on the subject, though somewhat dated at this point, is Free Culture by Lawrence Lessig. It was published originally in 2004, there are some things that have clearly changed since then, but I really liked his analysis of what a copyright was originally and how copyright has changed over the years as new media were introduced. He basically points out that radio, tv, cable tv, movies, and such things necessitated change in the way copyright was interpreted and enforced, and that the internet deserves a similar adjustment. Good read, if you're looking for a book to pick up.

[Mal]

When you lay the lines on top of each other, it's more indicting of Coldplay than if you separate them and look at them in the context of their songs:

1. It's only two + measures where they match. On the second half of the 4-bar phrase, Satriani includes more notes and goes higher in the register the second time through to reach the pinnacle note of the entire melody. Martin, on the other hand, softens the melody by moving to a lower register, holding notes longer and falling off.

2. Martin uses the line in question as the verse, whereas for Satriani it's the refrain. This makes the songs sound very different if you play them together from the start.

3. The repeating of the same basic melody line twice with minor variations is so universal a songwriting tool as to not raise any suspicion with me.

As for the harmonic chord progressions underneath the melody, that's another significant difference to my ears. I can't even hear it in the Satriani song - to me his tune is just a numbing synthesized drum loop with a guitar soloing over it and some random acoustic sound with no discernible bass line in the background (as an aside, this is what makes Satriani pretty much unlistenably boring for me - you can't deny his technical virtuosity, but he's basically Kenny G with a guitar instead of a clarinet; he has to supply all the dynamics to a song, and it's basically pure melody with not even slightly interesting rhythmic or harmonic foundation to go with it). On the Coldplay track, the cello part is more prominent than even the vocal, which is singing the allegedly ripped off line.

So all you're left with is two bars of melody that have matching notes. Hardly the first time that's happened, I suspect. Even if those notes were directly lifted, the differences throughout the rest of the music make Satriani's case seem weaker.

From a more practical perspective, what are the odds Chris Martin had ever even heard this Satriani song? I don't follow Coldplay enough to know his particular tastes (I appreciate their knack for dynamics and tension buildup and release, and think A Rush of Blood to The Head was a really strong album, but that's about it), but for starters he's a pianist and their songs are typically written from a piano-centric position. My guess is that, based on their sound generally, there's not a single Joe Satriani album in the collection of any of the band members. They'd be infinitely more likely to borrow a melody line from Thom Yorke or the Gallagher brothers.

[Acymetric]

From a more practical perspective, what are the odds Chris Martin had ever even heard this Satriani song? I don't follow Coldplay enough to know his particular tastes (I appreciate their knack for dynamics and tension buildup and release, and think A Rush of Blood to The Head was a really strong album, but that's about it), but for starters he's a pianist and their songs are typically written from a piano-centric position. My guess is that, based on their sound generally, there's not a single Joe Satriani album in the collection of any of the band members. They'd be infinitely more likely to borrow a melody line from Thom Yorke or the Gallagher brothers.

I don't know if I hold much weight to that. Just because you play certain types of songs doesn't mean you don't like songs from other genres. I'm not saying I think he has the Satriani in his house, but I think there's a fair chance he's heard it.

Which would actually be a fairly good explanation for what happened. Heard the song somewhere, but didn't particularly remember listening to it. Sit down to write a song, and a melody pops into your head. As far as you can remember you've never heard it before, so you put it down. Come to find out you heard the song in a bar somewhere 2 years ago and the melody just stuck in your head. Nothing intentional, but I imagine things like that happen fairly often, actually.

[DukeUsul]

In the infamous words of Rob van Winkle: "But ours goes - ding ding ding ding ding-a ding ding."

[Mal]

Just because you play certain types of songs doesn't mean you don't like songs from other genres.

No denying that generally, of course. I obviously wouldn't declare that Chris Martin probably doesn't like Mozart just because he's not a classical musician. Satriani is pretty limited in appeal, though. So far as I know, his following is mostly limited to Americans who listen to more traditional brands of rock, and serious guitarists. I could certainly be wrong. A lot of music snobs have disdain for his sound (and Martin's, for that matter), and a lot of rock musicians are pretty serious music snobs. Anyway, I'd wager that the average piano-playing leader of a moody British band that focuses on atmospheric lyrics is not a fan of a Joe Satriani.

I'm not saying I think he has the Satriani in his house, but I think there's a fair chance he's heard it.

Is this one of Satriani's more popular tunes? From one of his best-selling albums? While far from a world famous musician who married a movie star and named my child after a fruit, I listen to a lot of music from a lot of genres, and I'd never heard this before.

[snowdenscold]

Why did it take six months to file the lawsuit? Anyone lawyers have any insight that would explain why it took so long?

Speaking of which, why did it take several years for the Gustav Holst estate to file a lawsuit against Zimmer's Gladiator? You can't tell me none of those people saw the Best Picture of 2000 until years later, or none of their friends told them about it (I noticed the similarities the first time I saw it)

[pamtar]

What pisses me off is that people think they own music. Its as common as voice. Its just music.

Anybody who is slightly musically inclined can write crappy (and/or good) songs, tour a lot, meet the right people, get a record deal, and become famous. Just listen to any radio station and you'll see what I mean. Run-on sentences rock as well.

I like Will Sheff's take on things. He welcomes copycat bands and musicians. He even put on a cover song youtube contest that coincided with the release of The Stand Ins. His not so serious attitude towards his songwriting is what makes Okkervil great to me. Yes, I am jealous. But still, I'm not too impressed.

If similarities in song were that lawsuit worthy than Pearl Jam, Son House, and even myself and asymetric would be millionaires.

Thanks for the rant space. I will now go ROw/myCO!!

[alteran]

Oh, and Gunther is just plain incredible. If you need to laugh hysterically, check out his music videos (sometimes difficult to find, they're not always on youtube). Most excellent. Or go to his website and read his description. Its ridiculously awful, in the best way.

You know, all I want for Christmas is for Joe Satch to be sitting in a court room, staring impassively forward and trying to ignore a guy using the persona name Gunther Pleasureman, while the jury listens to a stretch of music sounding very much like "If I Could Fly" and featuring a guy with a faux Spanish accent saying, "tinny winny shtring becchini... oo-la-la," while cheesy backup singers sing la-la-la in very much the notes and cadence of Satch-boy's solo.

Is that too much to ask? Does Santa deliver schadenfreude?