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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottDuke04 View Post
    Gotta say, the stands were kind of rough today! Stadium officials and police removed one (presumably inebriated) UNC fan down at the bottom of my section early in the game...later removed several others nearby who were being very loud and obnoxious, and touching people around them.
    He and his friend were so drunk before the game, that they couldn't comprehend that seats 7 and 9 were before 17 and 19 -- I had to explain it to them three times. As the game progressed he became increasingly belligerent, swinging his fists around and nearly punched and older couple in Row R, while verbally berating a group of teenage Duke fans seated a few rows up.

    I'd like to thank whomever notified security.

    Quote Originally Posted by blazindw View Post
    While I do agree that improvements to WW are necessary, I don't think that inadequate bathrooms and concession stands are the reason we went 4-8.
    Durham's City/County Planning Commission is the reason we have insufficient permanent, smelly temporary bathrooms and inadequate concession facilities -- they initially approved Duke's improvement plans, to be complete by this season, then changed their minds, demanding that the university place sidewalks on both sides of Frank Bassett Drive (a private road), necessitating the removal of some huge trees. The University said no, Durham C/CPC revoked approval.

    I blame the C/CPC for the inadequate water/refreshment facilities that led to a number of people fainting from heatstroke during the Navy game (including an 84 year old OB-GYN and Duke Alum from Greensboro, whom my wife had to assist) and the enormous lines for inadequate restroom facilities that my wife, who is now 32 weeks pregnant had to endure. (At halftime, it took 25+ minutes of standing in line to reach the ladies' room behind sections 31/32, and there was still a line when we returned to our seats, well into the 3rd quarter.)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil in the Blue Dress View Post
    ........ Improvements and upgrades will come about because the football attendance has increased enough to merit doing so. I rank facilities which directly improve what supports the team's preparation before upgrades for the fans. I'd rather see a fine indoor practice facility come before the stadium renovations. Having a top notch indoor practice facility will have more impact on team performance than any rest room or seating upgrades.
    ......
    It is a chicken and the egg thing....

    I am not sure White agrees with you about the priorities.

    Wade is woefully inadequate in a number of respects...amenities in terms of bathrooms, sure, but also as a football venue it is inadequate in two respects. The track, putting fans so far off the sidelines...and capacity is not at the critical level at which the Football Program can be a revenue add, rather than a rev. drag on the Athletic Department budget.

    You want home and away game with Alabama? And the home game played in Durham? Have to be able to seat more than 33k people.

    Attendance drags because of the track, imo..Anyone watch the USC Notre Dame game who remembers watching a game in the Coliseum before the track was removed? Its night and day. How about Ohio State....fans rave about the change there.

    I can say in my opinion with absolutely certainty in my mind the following:

    1. fixation on the stop gap fix the bathrooms and concessions and stop and wait from there is the wrong approach. White is looking at a comprehensive redo, removing the track and planning on bathrooms, concessions, club seats in an intergrated design. It was a blessing that Durham held up the stop gap.

    2. Wade is the worst stadium in Division 1-a. Its an embarassment and hurts recruiting.

    3. Fixing the stadium situation is more important than the indoor practice facility.

    Re my third point I actually think K. White believes fixing Wade is more important than an indoor practice facility, that this will have more near term and longer term benefits for the program. It is also possible that an indoor facility may be contiguous to Wade and therefore that it will be part of the overall stadium redo footprint. The problem is raising the money, in the post stock market crash environment.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil in the Blue Dress View Post
    I agree! And fancy rented rest rooms for women don't translate into an increased fan base. Improvements and upgrades will come about because the football attendance has increased enough to merit doing so. I rank facilities which directly improve what supports the team's preparation before upgrades for the fans. I'd rather see a fine indoor practice facility come before the stadium renovations. Having a top notch indoor practice facility will have more impact on team performance than any rest room or seating upgrades.

    In the meantime, thank you, Coach Cutcliffe, for coming to Duke and leading us out of the darkness!

    Speaking of upgrades and plans for the future, season's ticket's will be on sale some time after the first of the year. Signing Day will be soon after. As Coach has said, football is a year round sport!
    Wow - fancy rented rest rooms for the women???

    I 'm advocating rest rooms and concession stands that would be acceptable on a high school level. The experience at WW has to improve along with team if we are going to be respectable in the future. Pretty easy to recruit against Duke when a kid's dad has to walk through a cess pool and wait in line for 30-45 minutes for a drink.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    6 miles from Heaven, 10 miles from Hell
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkD View Post

    Durham's City/County Planning Commission is the reason we have insufficient permanent, smelly temporary bathrooms and inadequate concession facilities -- they initially approved Duke's improvement plans, to be complete by this season, then changed their minds, demanding that the university place sidewalks on both sides of Frank Bassett Drive (a private road), necessitating the removal of some huge trees. The University said no, Durham C/CPC revoked approval.

    I blame the C/CPC for the inadequate water/refreshment facilities that led to a number of people fainting from heatstroke during the Navy game (including an 84 year old OB-GYN and Duke Alum from Greensboro, whom my wife had to assist) and the enormous lines for inadequate restroom facilities that my wife, who is now 32 weeks pregnant had to endure. (At halftime, it took 25+ minutes of standing in line to reach the ladies' room behind sections 31/32, and there was still a line when we returned to our seats, well into the 3rd quarter.)
    I disagree with your assessment that the blame for not building the restroom/concession facilities rests with the city/county planning department. As much, if not more, belongs to the university administration for first OKing an agreement with the city/county for a change in zoning to help facilitate construction on campus, and then ignoring that agreement (and the requirements set by that agreement) when submitting plans. One of hte requirements is providing adequate pedestrian access to all facilities when being constructed. That includes the football field (with the improvements being planned.) That also includes providing proper pedestrian facilities along all roads, public or private.

    In a previous thread back in May or so, I outlined a very simple solution to the pedestrian path/sidewalk along Frank Bassett Drive: Move the fence on the south side back ten feet and put the sidewalk behind the trees that VP Trask said had to be removed. It's not easy to park along Bassett, or on the grass field next to it, and try to get in and out with the pedestrians in the street. This is something that better crowd control could improve (why do we pay all those people in yellow, and not plan on using them for both ingress and egress. In particular, the intersection of Bassett and Science Drive, where many paths cross, could use some actual traffic control, rather than a free-for-all.)

    As far as I understand, the development review committee never approved the plans for the restrooms/concession stands. If you have different information about an official approval from the City, I would like to hear it.

    Regarding the concession stands, I do not believe it's the facilities that cause the long lines, it's the inefficient methods of the volunteer groups that staff them. Of course, that would also include indifferent paid staff at other arenas, such as MSG. I do not mean that the volunteers lack effort, but more organization would help.) Newer facilities will certainly help, but inefficient staff and inadequate supplies (how do you run out of water at that previous game, and why do you not stock enough hot beverages yesterday?) will prevent significant improvement.

    Regarding other facilities, I have the plans for the indoor practice field and halftime house on my table right now (disclaimer, I do not work for the city/county, however I am a member of a citizen's advisory commission that, as part of our role, reviews development plans. I did not review the plans for the restrooms.) The indoor practice field will be located on the last parking lot on Wannamaker, and the halftime house (for the visiting team) to the side of the (to be extended) outdoor practice field closest to WW. It appears the current field house will remain until the new one is finished, and then the field will be extended to full length. Much of the woods between the football fields and the Hart house will be removed to make room and connect the existing fields to the new indoor facility, as will part of the second outdoor field (the one closest to 751).

    There is a note that indicates that a sidewalk along DU Road will be constructed before occupancy of either the indoor facility or the concession/restroom facilities, whichever comes first.

  5. #45
    Thanks for the summary DU82. Do you have any feel for when some of the concepts you addressed will actually take place? Also, for most of us on this board, we know that buying a bottle of water during the game has been an ordeal. Do you think anyone in the Adminstration understands this? It seems like a win-win to be able to sell thousands of bottles of water at $3 a bottle.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Meeting with Marie Laveau
    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    It is a chicken and the egg thing....

    I am not sure White agrees with you about the priorities.

    Wade is woefully inadequate in a number of respects...amenities in terms of bathrooms, sure, but also as a football venue it is inadequate in two respects. The track, putting fans so far off the sidelines...and capacity is not at the critical level at which the Football Program can be a revenue add, rather than a rev. drag on the Athletic Department budget.

    You want home and away game with Alabama? And the home game played in Durham? Have to be able to seat more than 33k people.

    Attendance drags because of the track, imo..Anyone watch the USC Notre Dame game who remembers watching a game in the Coliseum before the track was removed? Its night and day. How about Ohio State....fans rave about the change there.

    I can say in my opinion with absolutely certainty in my mind the following:

    1. fixation on the stop gap fix the bathrooms and concessions and stop and wait from there is the wrong approach. White is looking at a comprehensive redo, removing the track and planning on bathrooms, concessions, club seats in an intergrated design. It was a blessing that Durham held up the stop gap.

    2. Wade is the worst stadium in Division 1-a. Its an embarassment and hurts recruiting.

    3. Fixing the stadium situation is more important than the indoor practice facility.

    Re my third point I actually think K. White believes fixing Wade is more important than an indoor practice facility, that this will have more near term and longer term benefits for the program. It is also possible that an indoor facility may be contiguous to Wade and therefore that it will be part of the overall stadium redo footprint. The problem is raising the money, in the post stock market crash environment.
    I don't pretend to be an expert. I've thoughtfully read each of your postings on this subject and am familiar with the points you've made. I'm only a double Dukie and loyal fan who was influenced by what Coach Cutlciffe has said is his top priority.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    6 miles from Heaven, 10 miles from Hell
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie is still king View Post
    Thanks for the summary DU82. Do you have any feel for when some of the concepts you addressed will actually take place? Also, for most of us on this board, we know that buying a bottle of water during the game has been an ordeal. Do you think anyone in the Adminstration understands this? It seems like a win-win to be able to sell thousands of bottles of water at $3 a bottle.
    Regarding the practice facility and halftime house, the visitor's facility is listed as phase I, with the indoor facility phase II. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the ACC was pushing for the visitor's house to be built asap. If I had to guess, I'd say the halftime house would be started soon, and the indoor facility perhaps next summer - guessing based on construction times and that the indoor facility would take out a parking lot, something that would possibly take time to re-assign those spots. I previously reviewed a site plan for a parking lot on DU Road across from the Alumni house which might serve as a replacement.

    I have nothing right now to base this on, but I would expect the restrooms and concessions to be built this year (well, before the next season starts.) I believe they are part of the future plans for the stadium, and can be built in stages. And, it would appear the new halftime house and indoor practice facility will take down more trees than the sidewalk on Bassett. :-)

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Durham
    Since someone mentioned the band -- is it just me or is the band substantially smaller this year than in previous years? Seems like the pep band has only like 1-2 sousaphones and ~4 trombones? (plenty of clareints!) I think in many ways the band SOUNDS better than it has in some recent years, but it also seems to be shrinking. Just curious. (/me was in the band 1 year only ~10 years ago)

    Also, more rock lobster!

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Meeting with Marie Laveau
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottDuke04 View Post
    Since someone mentioned the band -- is it just me or is the band substantially smaller this year than in previous years? Seems like the pep band has only like 1-2 sousaphones and ~4 trombones? (plenty of clareints!) I think in many ways the band SOUNDS better than it has in some recent years, but it also seems to be shrinking. Just curious. (/me was in the band 1 year only ~10 years ago)

    Also, more rock lobster!
    The band at the football game yesterday was an alumni band. The regular season marching band has gradually increased in numbers in the past couple of years. Their entry to the stadium, awesome. More members still appreciated and needed!

    Being in the band is a commitment much like being on an athletic team, except that Duke offers no scholarships to recruit outstanding musicians or to entice students to commit the time required to prepare.

    As for favorite songs for the band to play, my choice is obvious: "Devil with the Blue Dress On"!

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Durham
    I also know the topic of the track has been beaten to absolute death, but...

    This year, while attendance was tremendously better than in the past few years, the stadium never looked full. Maybe one or two games looked as close as I've seen it, but never full. For multiple games--notably UNC and NCSU--their fans outnumbered our own (definitely more UNC fans, maybe 50/50 for state was my guess). This is pretty much the usual, but anyway...

    If you add more seating at this point, isn't that problem just going to be exacerbated? The ticket office has been pretty much giving away tickets all year long, bringing in tons of groups, etc--what's going to happen with significantly increased seating? Not to mention parking and traffic direction, which is already a nightmare...

    Is Wallace Wade an embarrassment that hurts recruiting? I have no idea. I would personally think the on the field performance, and the fact that it's Duke (as both a positive and negative) would be a far bigger factor. IMO, fix up the facilities (bathrooms), figure out some better parking plans,
    and go from there. Duke's already putting a lot of money into the new football program and staff, and i think we should see what happens. We had a good first year, let's keep it going before revamping half the campus.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil in the Blue Dress View Post
    The band at the football game yesterday was an alumni band. The regular season marching band has gradually increased in numbers in the past couple of years. Their entry to the stadium, awesome. More members still appreciated and needed!
    I know the band that day and the Duquesne band was alumni, but I've thought it was smaller all year. Is it really bigger? I would have bet that this year and last were smaller than before that?

    Being in the band is a commitment much like being on an athletic team, except that Duke offers no scholarships to recruit outstanding musicians or to entice students to commit the time required to prepare.
    Very true. I personally didn't enjoy DUMB, but appreciate their hard work!

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottDuke04 View Post
    Since someone mentioned the band -- is it just me or is the band substantially smaller this year than in previous years? Seems like the pep band has only like 1-2 sousaphones and ~4 trombones? (plenty of clareints!) I think in many ways the band SOUNDS better than it has in some recent years, but it also seems to be shrinking. Just curious. (/me was in the band 1 year only ~10 years ago)

    Also, more rock lobster!
    Only 1 sousaphone this year, but band size in general has been good.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie is still king View Post
    It's also time for the administration to come through on the WW upgrades. No excuses should be accepted if the restrooms and concession stands are not significantly upgraded before the Richmond? game.

    We shall see if White can make it happen.
    This placard was up in the southwest side near the temporary bathroom trailer. There was a faint blueprint under the picture posted below, but I knew my cell camera wouldn't pick it up so I ignored it. Note the completion date is August 2009.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottDuke04 View Post
    Since someone mentioned the band -- is it just me or is the band substantially smaller this year than in previous years? Seems like the pep band has only like 1-2 sousaphones and ~4 trombones? (plenty of clareints!) I think in many ways the band SOUNDS better than it has in some recent years, but it also seems to be shrinking. Just curious. (/me was in the band 1 year only ~10 years ago)

    Also, more rock lobster!
    Like someone said, yesterday was different because it was a break game, so we have a lot of alumni who play instead of students. We do only have 1 sousaphone, but we have a lot of trombones and trumpets. Our numbers are a little bit higher than last year (and as far as I know, have been increasing over time).

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!

    Alumnus Sousaphone

    Quote Originally Posted by PumpkinFunk View Post
    We do only have 1 sousaphone
    Yes, but you had Buster H (Class of 1976) playing sousaphone yesterday! And he'll be playing at the Meadowlands on Dec. 20th if you want to catch his act again!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Back in the dirty Jerz
    The band is larger this year than it was a few years ago. But it's still a smaller band than it was when I was in the band (95-99). We peaked at over 120 people. Granted, losing some of the dead weight has been a good thing.
    -- DukeUsul

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottDuke04 View Post
    .....
    If you add more seating at this point, isn't that problem just going to be exacerbated? The ticket office has been pretty much giving away tickets all year long, bringing in tons of groups, etc--what's going to happen with significantly increased seating? Not to mention parking and traffic direction, which is already a nightmare...Is Wallace Wade an embarrassment that hurts recruiting? I have no idea. I would personally think the on the field performance, and the fact that it's Duke (as both a positive and negative) would be a far bigger factor. IMO, fix up the facilities (bathrooms), figure out some better parking plans,
    and go from there. Duke's already putting a lot of money into the new football program and staff, and i think we should see what happens. We had a good first year, let's keep it going before revamping half the campus.
    Other schools (in addition to USC and Ohio State) have struggled with what to do with older football stadiums designed like Wade with a horseshoe surrounding a track. Temple had a 34k stadium, almost exactly like Wade, and bulldozed the thing around 1970. Pitt had a bowl with a track around the field, Pitt stadium, and struggled with the idea of keeping it or partnering with the Steelers. While attendance at Heinz field has not been the best, talk to anyone who has attended the always sold out Pitt - West Virginia game and they rave at the improvement of Heinz over sitting back and away at Pitt Stadium. (Pitt Stadium was demolished and on the site Pitt built their new b-ball arena - which some credit with the emergence of Pitt as top womens and mens programs). Even with the track removed, Wade is less than ideal because the rake, pitch of the stands is a bit too gentle. Contrast this with Wake, VT (a larger version of Wake) where the pitch is steep to allow fans to sit right on top of the field. USC averages 72k a game in the LA Coliseum which seats over 90k. Not full, yet fans rave (I personally have watched games before and after the track was removed) at the difference. USC stands are also a bit more gentle of a pitch which again is less than ideal. However, the seats added in 1993 when removing the track are always full, and, as I recall, at a time when USC Football did not dominate the PAc Ten, attendance improved year on year after the track was removed. (looking for a cite to document this).

    The issue of WW is a strategic one. At this point, are we going to have a Football Program or not? To remain in the ACC, we have to. The present value of ACC football-related revenue sharing for the next 20 years, imo most likely exceeds the aggegate costs being considered to upgrade the Football stadium and facilities. Go beyond there. The Iron Dukes fund about 240 athletic scholarships a year. Contributions are partly a function of interest in the Football program. De-emphasize Football - get dropped from the ACC and become, say a b-ball member of the Big East, and how many of these scholarships in the form of financial aid will need to be funded by the general university funds?

    On the plus, removing the track and digging down is one of the lesser expensive ways to add good seats.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    IMHO, I think renovating/expanding the stadium is necessary to the growth of the football program. Undoubtedly an expansion at this point will initially leave more empty seats or seats occupied by the opposition. But there are plenty of fans out there who like Duke and will come if the team is competitive, and we can fill a larger stadium. Right now our facilities (stadium and practice) are not ACC-caliber. Cutcliffe is bringing in a higher level of recruit and we will be competitive. Having better facilities and a larger crowd will help bring in better recruits, and propogate a cycle of success. If we're going to be committed to a program that can realistically strive for bowl eligibility year to year, improving our facilities is a part of that equation.

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