Crazies' Attendance/Criticisms Collection Thread 2009

[Ders24]

If you're a Duke fan, what start-of-season event could be more exciting than Blue/White?

Well, I think a Midnight Madness-type event would be a way to not only get people who are currently dedicated fans involved, but also get the freshmen (the majority of whom know little about Duke basketball). From my experience, Blue White tells little about the season, and the excitement surrounding it tends to die off for the students after the first half.

[RelativeWays]

Us upper level plebeians who cannot come to games on a regular basis need a Coriolanus to petition the ticket allocation oligarchy on our behalf. I'd love for there to be a better ticket recycling program, maybe a way to sign up for notifications of tickets made available, those could be 1st come 1st serve. I don't know how to fix the empty seat issue, but if Coach K and his grandkids want to dress up and sell tickets, he's got a buyer.

[devildeac]

I'm pretty sure they're referring to what other schools do, like midnight madness and things like that. They make it a bit more of a spectacle. We don't have anything like that. Should we try to do something like that? I don't know, or really care. Other people probably have strong opinions one way or another.

If it involves Coach K wearing a lei, sunglasses and dancing or our players dressing in drag and performing some embarassing routine like some of our whine and cheesy neighbors down 15-501, umm, no thanks.

[devilirium]

It's not up to the upper bowl to make noise. The "Cameron Crazies" are the 6th man, and they sit in the lower bowl. The students get the good seats, and they get the regonition of and the responsibility for being the best student section in the country.


The first part of the argument I hate, but it will always be true. I sit there with the "too busy to cheer crowd". The reactiveness of the silent majority, man I love that. At least when I unleash an "ahhhhh" cheer I'm not shouted down.

[MADevil30]

If it involves Coach K wearing a lei, sunglasses and dancing or our players dressing in drag and performing some embarassing routine like some of our whine and cheesy neighbors down 15-501, umm, no thanks.

I feel both ways about this. Friends at Georgetown told me about a dozen times how "amazing" midnight madness was, but when they told me about what actually went on and it was "JT3 did a dance with his daughter!, All the players had a dance off!" I realized pretty quickly that not a single player touched a basketball the whole night. We can't do this.

I love blue and white because its great to actually see what the team has to offer and I like that Duke just gets down to business to start the season. That being said, I think there is a middle ground here. 1) Having blue and white in the middle of the day was lame, do it at midnight and it would be much cooler 2) Maybe do up the introduction more: get coach k to give a bit of a longer speech about the team and the season, have some extended player intros with some cool/funny personal info 3) get down to basketball.

There is no reason an intra-squad scrimmage can't be an awesome start to the season

[OZZIE4DUKE]

1) Having blue and white in the middle of the day was lame, do it at midnight and it would be much cooler 2) Maybe do up the introduction more: get coach k to give a bit of a longer speech about the team and the season, have some extended player intros with some cool/funny personal info 3) get down to basketball.

First, Duke has had a midnight madness twice that I remember, both times when we had large freshman classes after mass early exoduses. K wanted a way to introduce the frosh to the big time atmosphere they would soon see in early season tournaments. I went to the first one and chose not to go to the second (both were free). Midnight madness, if we ever have it again, should NOT be the Blue/White game.

As for the start time of the B/W game, starting at midnight might be nice for students living on and near campus who routinely are up till 2 a.m., but it would be most inconvenient for non student ticket holders - you know, those that pay (big) money to the Iron Dukes and then pay for the tickets to attend the game. Games that start at 9 p.m. and end at 11:30 are bad enough (I get home between 12:30 and 1:00 those nights), but a game starting at midnight is, quite frankly, a non-starter. The B/W game should start around 6 or 6:30 p.m., after an afternoon football game starting at 1 p.m., to allow for maximum tailgating before and between games. The last two years, this wasn't the case.

As for the time of my post, yes, I am up at 2:30 a.m. Some nights are just like that...

[DukeCO2009]

It's a nice analogy but perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that it's unrealistic to expect Duke to be the best basketball team in the country every year, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to show up and play the games. Likewise, it's unrealistic to expect the Cameron Crazies to be electric every single night, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to at least show up for the game.

Now maybe you stayed up late the night before to study for a test, write a paper, or participate in the election. That's your choice and I don't have a problem with any of that. But at the same time, it smacks of an appalling sense of entitlement to adopt the attitude that "don't worry, we'll show up when the games are more meaningful." Because the student section doesn't really belong to the students - it belongs to the university. And the university makes the decision to give that to the students (at a level that's superior to almost any other school in Div I). In return it shouldn't be too much to expect people to show up and support the team even for the dog games like exhibitions.

Here's a thought - establish the size of the student section for the whole season based on the number of students who show up for those exhibition games.

That's one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever heard/read. How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section. Get a grip--it's the preseason. Granted, Duke basketball is Duke basketball--this much is true. If I could make every single game, I would. Fact is that sometimes I physically can't, and other times I might be able to clear my schedule but can't rationalize it given the circumstances--quality of opponent, time of day, work I have to do, schedule the next day, etc. Sue me if you feel compelled.

You're right--it is indeed university property. If Duke wants to take away our seats because, Heaven forbid, we didn't paint our faces and wait in line for three hours to scream our lungs out for a game against a crappy D-II team from Hickory, I say go ahead. If it were really a problem, it would've been taken care of years ago.

EDIT: I reread the above paragraph and realized that it sounded overly cynical, and for that I apologize. I don't mean to insinuate that we don't care about "crappy" games, just that, as I've previously stated, the combination of an inconvenient time--during midterms--a relative lack of publicity about the game, and the assumption that we'd wax the floor with our opponent led a lot of students to stay home. This is not a new problem, nor is it even really a problem at all. This happens every year, and if the athletic department thought it was an issue, it would have been dealt with appropriately when it first surfaced. Again, sorry for the tone of the above paragraph. If it sounded angry, it's because I was (and still am) quite irritated by the petty and irrational comments coming from alums about a freaking preseason basketball game.

As I've said multiple times: if you want noise, create it yourself. Students come to watch the games, not for your entertainment. If you have a problem with our enthusiasm, take it up with someone who can actually do something rather than griping to us about it here. If you want to take away our seats, go for it--give it your best shot. If you can manage to whittle away at our chunk of Cameron, it's quite obviously more your loss than it is ours given how concerned you (everyone, not just Carlos) seem to be with everything we do. I swear I think half the upstairs crowd is more concerned with the downstairs crowd than with the game--that they come to hear novel chants and read clever signs instead of to watch the action.

[mike88]

It seems that this thread keeps coming back to whether the undergrads can be expected to attend the early season games and whether it is a problem or not. I see the problem a little differently: too many empty seats. It seems like if we can expect this problem to happen every year, the university needs to find a better way of getting people in those empty seats.

The current policy of reserving much of the lower bowl for undergrad students and the fact that the undergrads don't have to decide until the last minute whether to use them or not makes it difficult to impossible to put any one else in them for most games (the system of selling more tickets in the lower bowl during student breaks actually seems to work a little better). The limitations of the ticket reallocation process through Iron Dukes causes the same type of problem upstairs.

I wonder if a process by which people have to claim their seats further in advance, or even some way of crediting people who come to the early season games so that they get better seats for the ACC games would be feasible . . .

[Sixthman]

Cameron was neither prepared for nor expecting a full house Wednesday night. (Concessions were on skeleton staff and not enough to support the poorly attended game). My guess is Coach K didn't know this when he made his comments. I really think this is a non issue. Next game.

[dukeENG2003]

Coach K's not entitled to have a crowd of 9,314 every night either.

He's not entitled to it, you're right. He has EARNED it, through the hard work and dedication that has helped him assemble a national contender year after year. By establishing us as the most dominant program in college basketball of the last 20 years.

More importantly, this TEAM has earned it by putting themselves in a position to contend for a national title.

The students aren't entitled to the best seats in the house (FOR FREE I might add, many schools charge for basketball tickets, even for students). They need to earn them, and right now, they are not.

[pratt '04]

Us upper level plebeians who cannot come to games on a regular basis need a Coriolanus to petition the ticket allocation oligarchy on our behalf. I'd love for there to be a better ticket recycling program, maybe a way to sign up for notifications of tickets made available, those could be 1st come 1st serve. I don't know how to fix the empty seat issue, but if Coach K and his grandkids want to dress up and sell tickets, he's got a buyer.

FYI: they're selling ("recycling") tickets to Monday and Tuesday's games right now. Check out the banner ad at the top of goduke.com right now.

[Channing]

against a crappy D-II team from Hickory,

that team from Hickory was pretty good. I hear they had basketball rims that are also ten feet high, and a free throw line just like ours.

Also, I was at the last midnight madness - it was useless. it was all students, cameron was 3/4 empty beacuse students were upstairs and in the student section. Duke just isnt big enough of a school to fill out for midnight madness.

[Carlos]

That's one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever heard/read. How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section. Get a grip--it's the preseason. Granted, Duke basketball is Duke basketball--this much is true. If I could make every single game, I would. Fact is that sometimes I physically can't, and other times I might be able to clear my schedule but can't rationalize it given the circumstances--quality of opponent, time of day, work I have to do, schedule the next day, etc. Sue me if you feel compelled.

Of course you would feel that it's a ridiculous argument because it threatens that entitlement to show up for the games you deem worthy of your attendance (and by "you" I'm speaking collectively not individually) knowing that those seats will be there waiting for you.

As for the "old farts" you do realize that there's a bit of a difference between what they do to get their tickets and what the student section does - right? You do realize that they actually pump millions of dollars into the program that actually pays for those scholarships that keeps the team on the floor? And that a good chunk of those people aren't burdened with that horrific trek to West all the way from East or Central, but instead are looking at the trek to Durham from places like New York, Atlanta, or Tallahassee.

So in my opinion, the bar's set a little differently for those "old farts" who provide such a huge financial support for the program and live much further away than there is for those people who are given their seats and live within commuting distance. Simply put, one set earns the right to buy those seats through their financial support and another set earns the right to those free seats through their commitment to supporting the team - and that means for every game (again, collectively, not individually).

Of course, I also think that if you hold those upper bowl tickets and you can't use them that it's your responsibility to put them in the hands of someone who can - either through personal distribution or sending them back into the Iron Dukes.

You're right--it is indeed university property. If Duke wants to take away our seats because, Heaven forbid, we didn't paint our faces and wait in line for three hours to scream our lungs out for a game against a crappy D-II team from Hickory, I say go ahead. If it were really a problem, it would've been taken care of years ago.

Hey, let's start slowly here... you don't have to paint your faces, you don't have to wait in line for three hours, and you don't have to scream your lungs out... how about you just show up and honor your end of the great seats for great support equation?

[Ders24]

that team from Hickory was pretty good. I hear they had basketball rims that are also ten feet high, and a free throw line just like ours.

Also, I was at the last midnight madness - it was useless. it was all students, cameron was 3/4 empty beacuse students were upstairs and in the student section. Duke just isnt big enough of a school to fill out for midnight madness.

Move it to earlier in the evening, keep the scrimmage but shorten it, do player introductions, etc.

[shotrocksplitter]

I have been watching these forums for a while, but this thread inspired me to register and say something. This is my 2nd season as a Line Monitor and 4th as a Crazie. I have missed only break games, and my very worst seat has been 4th row. I start a huge number of cheers and yell my voice out usually by the middle of the 2nd half.

Because of my position as a Line Monitor, I have spent a large amount of time thinking and paying attention to this problem. As such, I'd like to propose my answer to "why does the student section suck?"

1 - The personality of the new Duke student. While Duke has been academically elite for some time, I don't think we can legitimately argue that it has ever been more competitive. Each new freshmen class, along with a new group of 2, 3, and 4 guards, brings Duke a more academically cutthroat group of 1600. I sit on the bus and hear "my life is going to end, fail fail fail, I got a 94%!" The new typical Duke student's priorities have basketball a long distant second or worse to school. Increasingly, greek life activities keep potential Crazies from coming out to games as well.

2 - The Chronicle. This isn't quite as serious a problem, but it's still pathetic. In addition to their truly insipid columns (rare is the Duke basketball writer who has ever been Crazie), the paper has started to neglect to mention upcoming games. On Wednesday, there was no mention of the game that evening. I heard from a number of students on Wednesday afternoon who expressed their surprise to hear that there were a game that evening. The paper also has stopped printing the Head Line Monitor's letter to the editor reminding students of the policy for the evening. That letter was often my reminder freshman year that there was a game that evening, and I went and yelled. While there are a number of different ways Line Monitors try to reach students, the Chronicle is by far the most effective. Line Monitors are not responsible for drumming up student support/attendence, it is something we do because we desperately love Duke basketball, and yet our best and most basic potential ally does nothing to assist these efforts.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section.

Yes, as I commented before, the "old farts" attendance on Wednesday night was pitiful, and I think that's who K was mostly talking to in his post game press conference more than the students.

But as Carlos pointed out, getting to games for some is quite an expensive and time consuming endeavor. Not all of us live within an hour of Cameron. The folks who populate this board, from its earliest Juliovision days, make arrangements to have their tickets used when life prohibits them from flying to Durham from Atlanta, Tampa or Vermont and attending. And, quite honestly, you are preaching to the choir.

DukeCO2009, for students and grad students it is all about time management. You want to go to the games, schedule your time accordingly - us old farts have to. You know right now what the schedule is right through the FSU game on March 3rd, and what time the each game starts. It is up to the collective you to schedule your study time to be able to attend the games. Blow off a paper or studying for a test until the night before it is due such that you have to miss a game, shame on the collective you. You get sick, have a personal emergency or similar, then you're excused for missing a game.

[shotrocksplitter]

All the students who read this will be there, what can be done about the rest of them?

[Bluedog]

You do realize that they actually pump millions of dollars into the program that actually pays for those scholarships that keeps the team on the floor?

Well, students do pump millions into the university through paying $160,000 in tuition during their four years...Obviously, I understand that this money doesn't specifically go to the scholarship fund, though, so your point is well taken. But it's not really "free" - I liked to think of it as I was already paying for it through my tuition so I felt obligated to go (obviously, I wanted to go too)!

I definitely agree with shotrocksplitter's points. I think the changing of what a typical Duke student is (there is no "typical" Duke student, but many are very academic focused ones who don't care about sports) is the biggest key.

All the students who read this will be there, what can be done about the rest of them?

Exactly.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

One idea for the seats upstairs is that the tickets for exhibition games be sold separately from the season's tickets. The season's ticket holders would have first opportunity to buy, but any seats unsold that way should be marketed to the public well ahead of time. Open up those games to the many people who beg for any opportunity to see Duke play. I've already mentioned what Eddie Cameron used to do to fill the student sections when the sections weren't full.

Currently season's ticket holders can opt out of those games, but I haven't noticed any publicity that the seats are available for purchase for those games. I have been opting out of those games thinking that it would create an opportunity for someone else to get into Cameron.

As for the Blue and White game, it's had several versions over the years. I used to enjoy the format that included the alumni being recognized and playing. Another way to do that could be some suitable video clips of some of Duke's greats from the past. Including an alumni component gives the newest fans a sense of our history and traditions as well as recognizing what the basketball program accomplished over the years. Duke is so much more than just this year's team or the last time we won a national championship.

[dukeENG2003]

1 - The personality of the new Duke student. While Duke has been academically elite for some time, I don't think we can legitimately argue that it has ever been more competitive. Each new freshmen class, along with a new group of 2, 3, and 4 guards, brings Duke a more academically cutthroat group of 1600. I sit on the bus and hear "my life is going to end, fail fail fail, I got a 94%!" The new typical Duke student's priorities have basketball a long distant second or worse to school. Increasingly, greek life activities keep potential Crazies from coming out to games as well.

I will indeed argue that its always been this competitive. The only reason people are freaking out saying that a 94% is a problem is the rampant grade inflation that permeates ALL college campuses (it becomes a lot harder to seperate yourself when the average is set at a B). However, if you think students before weren't interested in getting the best grades they could, you're deluding yourself.