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Thread: Phase I - 2009

  1. #21

    Just to add my two cents' worth, Jumbo noted that on defense Duke will have to adjust to Zoubek's limitations, but I also think they have to adjust to him on offense. When Zoubek posts up, he is so big that he basically blocks that side of the lane. Since Duke was attacking off the dribble so much, I got the impression that the rest of the guys would stand around a bit more since they didn't have the same driving lanes that they were used to. Elvis14 has noted the importance of good passing in the paint, and it seems that they will also have to kick the ball back out quickly, or make the skip pass to drive from the weak side. On the upside, Zoubek seems to create a lot of problems for Hansbrough, and he seems to alter a lot of shots, so he can make a real contribution.

  2. #22

    Depends

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil07 View Post
    Although I don't think we will know unless we (hopefully) play UCLA, I'm most interested to see who finishes the game at the 5. I'm inclined to think it will be Singler, but late game rebounding really killed us last season. Although not having to guard the opposing team's center all game should keep Singler fresh for the last few minutes, I do worry about going small at the end of games. If Plumlee/Zoubek are trusted with finishing games I think that would give us a lot more crunch time flexibility.
    If Duke is nursing a lead, I would expect to see both Paulus and Smith for better ball handling, and Singler at the 5. He is outstanding at running down the clock and then driving on the opposing big man. But in close games against big teams, Plumlee and Zoubek should be able to step up.

  3. #23
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    I wouldn';t be surprised to see a little Princeton in the half court, only Jeff Green/ roy Hibbert style instead of the straight Princeton. Am I the only one who could see Kyle handling at the top of the key, throwing backdoor passes if the wings are overplayed, shooting the 3 or mid range 2 as the clock runs down or dribbling past a bigger defender if challenged. Or taking a bounce and either handing off to a wing, or again having them backdoor.

    I'm not saying that this will be the predominent set, but I can see this working, and having a high low game, with Duke's bigs catching it on the move and shooting it, not classically posting and holding position.

    Of course, that would mean another fairly radical change in two years. However, teams began figuring out ways to stop the creation of inside out play off of wing penetration the second half of the season, and Duke had a difficult time attacking the basket with its bigs. That should improve with Lance and Zoubek much healthier, but I'd love to see Singler in Jeff Green's role. Think it would be awesome.

    I have a sense that you might well see Henderson going off on run outs aka in that tournament game. If he grabs a rebound in a crowd, he can beat the guys who are physical enough to make it difficult for him in the lane on the other end, and outphysical those who can get back. Of course, there are the floppers, and Gerald must be able to know when to just circle on out. I do not see him dribbling down and distributing. Think David Thompson here folks. Oops, I said it again. I still think he reminds me of him, only with a little more toughness, and less range on that shot.

    I'm pumped. Singler being a face the basket pivot, penetrating or shooting as the clock runs down or popping it to shooters Scheyer and Paulus, or cutters like Henderson, Smith, Czzzz, or tossing it to a big in stride. A guy could dream, right?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I wouldn';t be surprised to see a little Princeton in the half court, only Jeff Green/ roy Hibbert style instead of the straight Princeton. Am I the only one who could see Kyle handling at the top of the key, throwing backdoor passes if the wings are overplayed, shooting the 3 or mid range 2 as the clock runs down or dribbling past a bigger defender if challenged. Or taking a bounce and either handing off to a wing, or again having them backdoor.

    I'm not saying that this will be the predominent set, but I can see this working, and having a high low game, with Duke's bigs catching it on the move and shooting it, not classically posting and holding position.

    Of course, that would mean another fairly radical change in two years. However, teams began figuring out ways to stop the creation of inside out play off of wing penetration the second half of the season, and Duke had a difficult time attacking the basket with its bigs. That should improve with Lance and Zoubek much healthier, but I'd love to see Singler in Jeff Green's role. Think it would be awesome.
    I can see it working, but it just isn't K's style...

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    I can see it working, but it just isn't K's style...
    I agree. Plus, despite the fact that it could work, I don't think even a modified Princeton offense takes advantage of our greatest strengths (namely, speed and athleticism).

    Also, while G is a great athlete and has a great deal of potential, the comparison with David Thompson is just too out there. I doubt David Thompson ever had a game with only 7 points and 4 rebounds, and I don't care who the game was against or what the final score turned out to be. Yes, I realize we've played only one real game, but G was pretty quiet in the two exhibition games as well. All-America, first team All-ACC types bring it every single game. I'm starting to think that talk was way off base. Don't get me wrong, I think G will be a major cog for a great Duke team this year. But David Thompson, one of the greatest college players ever? Not even close.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Think David Thompson here folks.
    When I think David Thompson I think about the greatest player in the history of the ACC. Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Comparing any current Duke player to David Thompson is outrageous.

    For anyone out there who is too young to have seen David Thompson in action he was simply amazing. The Michael Jordan of 82-84 couldn't carry the 73-75 David Thompson's jock strap.
    Bob Green

  7. #27
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    Fellas, fellas, chill. If you read carefully, my reference to David Thompson here was not to what he did well, but rather to the limitation on one of the things that he did well--which was taking it the lengh of the court.

    Thompson, to the extent that he went off on run outs off of rebounds, either scored the ball himself, or pulled it out. He did not try to create on a run out because that was beyond his skill set. On the other hand, he could hurt you his own self, since the guys who might be back were no match physically. As long as he avoided a charge, finishing was no problem.

    What I referenced here was only that Henderson has a similar shortcoming, although, now that I think about it, he might well be better taking it the length than Thompson.

    One compares a player to a David Thompson not to say that they are coequals, but rather because everyone who ever saw David Thompson play has pictures still in their minds about what he looked like doing different things. Thus, it gives you a feel for what words might otherwise do inadequately.

    My mental image is seeing David on a run up court, curling toward the sideline and then back maybe 10 15 feet after half court when there was too much going on in front of him on a run out for him to deal with. He looked awkward in those moments, at least for him, but it was a disciplined play, probably drummed into him by Sloan, in exchange for giving David the freedom to grab it off the board and try to take it all the way.

    If that image in my mind's eye is faulty or does not register on you, then the reference to Thompson in this instance failed. However, at least here my reference to Thompson is misconstrued.

  8. #28

    Scheyer

    Quote Originally Posted by socaldukie View Post
    It still amazes me how under appreciated a guy like Scheyer is. He means so much to this team and contributes in so many ways. Yet, most all want to talk about is Singler and Hendo.

    I have every bit of confidence in Scheyer taking over games and being one of the main reasons we have a long run into March/April.

    All I am saying is I think he is much, much more than just a glue guy.
    Jumbo said it. I also expect Scheyer to handle the ball a lot ot the time, once it gets into the half court. He is good at drawing the defender, since he is a real threat to score. As a result opponents have to get up close on him and then he can make entry passes to the block in good position and with good timing. Last year, some of our guards made bounce passes into our bigs, and guys like Zoubek had trouble and probably Plumee will have trouble dealing with balls entering in that way.

    I can think of additional question for this year. What do we do when our opponents decide to take Singler out of his game through the use of one or more of their best defenders? We saw that strategy used against Redick in the past and it worked. Where will the points come from in that situation? Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, Paulus?

  9. #29
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    A penny wager: The game will flow through Singler in the half court towards the end of games, and it will have elements of the Princeton in its options.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    A penny wager: The game will flow through Singler in the half court towards the end of games, and it will have elements of the Princeton in its options.
    I'll take that bet. As I said before, I agree with you that it could work. But the Princeton offense requires a great deal of practice to get right, and I can't imagine Coach K devoting that much practice time on something that is so different from what he wants the team to do most of the time.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I'll take that bet. As I said before, I agree with you that it could work. But the Princeton offense requires a great deal of practice to get right, and I can't imagine Coach K devoting that much practice time on something that is so different from what he wants the team to do most of the time.
    Not so different, not at all. You give it to Singler on the high post. Wings step back to the three line or move towards Singler, either they get room or they go to the basket. Singler's guy has to come ever more tight as he is just inside the top of the key and can kill it. He comes too close, bye-bye. He can dribble toward a wing, defender overplays, dive, defender doesn't, hands off. I really do not know how the last 10-15 seconds of the Princeton play, but it is not largely different than what the Dukies have been doing with wing penetration. Wll not take a lot to function well off of getting Singler the ball in that spot. If they do, then my guess what they do will more resemble the final stages of the Princeton, when that offense is intent on scoring the ball, than not.

    If Singler is not beat at the end of games, he is the guy in whose hands I want the ball. He is the best interior passer on the team by miles, can shoot with just about any of them, and if isolated at the top of the key, a little inside it, like I said, with space because people are d'ing the perimeter like the lives depend on it, then he can go left or right, under control, and finish. He is a good foul shooter.

    Teams have figured out to stop wing penetration with overphysical play that forces the wings to belly out as they dribble laterally, and making them too off balance to get an edge regularly, as they did in the earlier part of last season, if the lane was there to take it to the hole.

    A big comes out on Singler in that way, with the other players spread, I like his chances against any belly they want to push at him.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I believe we have the potential to be solid at the point and Nolan Smith has the potential to be one of the best PGs in the country. However, Smith has to go out on the court and prove it. I'm optimistic he will.
    Hi Bob,

    IMO, Nolan Smith had to show more than just potential for Coach K to bench a three year starter. Coach K's actions, and Nolan's previous play, tell me that we're solid at the point.

    Best regards,
    Jeffrey

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Hi Bob,

    IMO, Nolan Smith had to show more than just potential for Coach K to bench a three year starter. Coach K's actions, and Nolan's previous play, tell me that we're solid at the point.

    Best regards,
    Jeffrey
    It might be relevant to also consder the fact that Paulus had a knee injury this summer and lost some development time. I will be more clear on the status of each about mid-December when Greg has played his way back into game shape.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Hi Bob,

    IMO, Nolan Smith had to show more than just potential for Coach K to bench a three year starter. Coach K's actions, and Nolan's previous play, tell me that we're solid at the point.

    Best regards,
    Jeffrey
    I'm a big Nolan Smith fan and excited he is starting. I'm simply stating that we all need to wait and see how things shake out against top notch competition. These early season games can be misleading. If we end up playing UCLA in MSG, it should be a nice litmus test for our back court. Indoor66's point in regard to Paulus being hurt over the summer is definitely germane.
    Bob Green

  15. #35
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    Scheyer has been great at running the team. He gives it up easy which I like.

    I saw something the last game which reminded me of two or three passes I had seen last year of a similar ilk which, at the end of the day, do not seem to work. There was a time when such passes were great, but no longer.

    The pass I am talking about is from the top of the circle on an obtused angle bounce--a low pass to a moving big in the interior, particular if the pass comes across the passer's body.

    Scheyer himself has no peer (at least now that Nelson is gone) in laying outside the lane, outside the field of vision, with his attention seemingly on the guy he is guarding, just waiting to shoot the gap and steal such otherwise beautiful entries.

    He was victimized once on such an attempt this past game. Last year there were several such good defensive plays that stymied his otherwise seemingly clever entry attempts.

    I don't pretend to know how that play can be made with the speed and smarts of modern littles, if at all. Those kind of bounce passes it seems to me can be made when the passer still has his dribble, is inside the top of the key, and is holding the ball high, or is croached low in a seeming attack mode. Singler has done a good job from such a position. I don't know that the modern game permits that type of entry bounce pass from the position and circumstance that Scheyer sometimes tries it from.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    He gives it up easy which I like.
    This is a family board, greybeard.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    This is a family board, greybeard.
    I believe you meant to say, "That's what she said".

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Looking back ...

    Phase I is over. Phase II starts pretty quickly (why on in the world do we play back-to-back games in NY, have the team fly back to Duke and then play a random game against Montana on a Sunday???), so it's time for a look back.

    "To what degree will Duke look to force a desired pace/tempo, and how will the team accomplish that?"
    Not much, from what I've seen. This team will run off turnovers, but they're not looking to push off every rebound and certainly not made baskets. Up-tempo basketball requires a commitment to play that way under all circumstances and it requires passing to advance the ball up the court. Too often, even when Duke wants to run, someone pounds the ball into the floor.

    "How will Duke utilize Singler?"
    I love the way Singler is attacking off the dribble. He definitely isn't shying away from anything, drifting to the perimeter to shoot jumpers. I'd still like to see Duke post him a few times a game, thouhg.

    "Who initiates the offense?"
    As I expected, the point guard's role has been diminished in this regard. Sure, Smith and Paulus might bring the ball up, but Scheyer is in a playmaking role far more often. So too, interestingly, is Singler.

    "Will we see more motion?"
    Apparently not. The spread offense Duke is running still emphasizes spacing over movement. It's a shame, because when Duke runs a set play and screens more off the ball, things tend to work out well. I think the spread would be even more effective if the offense maintained its spacing while still encouraging more cutting/screening off the ball. Tough to do, but not impossible.

    "Who finishes the game at the point?"
    We've only had one close finish, but it looks like Smith is the guy for now.

    "How does Duke adjust its man-to-man with Zoubek in the game?"
    Zoubek isn't pressuring the ball 30 feet away, but Duke is still largely playing its standard D with Zoubek in there. The help D has been impressive behind him.

    "What can we reasonably expect from Plumlee and Williams?"
    In retrospect, it might have been a little too much right away. Williams impressed me in NY -- he will be a key guy in various spots this year. Plumlee is behind Zoubek and Thomas right now, but if he starts to pick more stuff up, I'm sure he'll have opportunities to play.

    "What will Duke's rotation look like in a close game?"
    I expected 9-10, and that's the case. I thought McClure as on the bubble, but he's definitely part of it. There's a core 9 right now -- the starting 5 plus Thomas, Paulus, McClure and Williams. I think Pocius and Plumlee will continue to get spot work depending on matchups. Czyz, clearly, will not be part of the mix this year.

    "Just how much has Henderson progressed?"
    His stroke looks better. His help D is stronger. He seems more unselfish on offense. I'm still looking for better lateral movement when he guards the ball, better ability to go left, improvement in his handle and better court vision, too. I know everyone wants him to be a superstar, but those are legit areas that still need development.

    "Will the new three-point line matter?"
    I don't think it does, but Duke clearly isn't shooting the three as well as we'd like so far. Still, I think it's more of a sample size issue than a problem for guys to shoot from a foot deeper.

    I'll try to post Phase II tonight or tomorrow.

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