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  1. #281
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.
    In college ball these days, instant impact one-and-done players can make a huge difference...Carmelo Anthony is the prime example of that, so there is no doubt that Duke could improve it's tournament performance by bending over to recruit guys who are here then gone. The implied suggestion is that we should consider changing our recruiting tactics to get those guys if we really feel they could be that difference maker.

    Duke has had great success recruiting quality guys who we develop over time. While 2005-2008 didn't have the March results we'd all like, over the past 25 years, Duke is arguably the most successful program in college basketball doing it the way we've been doing it. I think this year we are seeing the benefits of players who buy into the team concept and grow together over the course of years. This Duke team has talent, chemistry, and experience.

    Making deals and promises to get a hired gun like Wall for a year would probably increase the talent level. However, it would wreck the chemistry and experience levels. I don't think we'd be better off doing things that way. As evidence, I'd point to programs which do. They have a strong year now and again (Memphis last year), but rarely have sustained, consistent success (Memphis this year).

    Just as importantly, Coach K's practice of bringing in kids who are quality kids and are reasonably likely to stay four years and graduate is more in line with Duke's reputation and class as a University than the practices of guys who pander to one-and-done talent like Huggins or Calipari.

  2. #282
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.
    yeah, who needs to be bothered with things like principles? Besides, Love left after one season and will be barely remembered. I'd rather have Singler who may not have been as dominate as a freshman but is looking like a stud as a sophomore and has a good chance of sticking around for one more year. I like Duke's chances to get to a final four possibly this year or even better next year.

    Which would you rather have: a stud recruit with a pane in the a#$ father for one season and a final four or a great kid for 3-4 years and possibly a final four or nc?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    I am betting that most people on this board disagree with this approach. The Duke system does not suffer fools well, or even fathers who are fools. I think there is no value to recruiting a stupid, obnoxious kid, and very little value to recruiting a kid with a stupid, obnoxious father.
    Putting up with stupid, obnoxious fathers isn't an issue. And it is something Duke is known to have suffered when necessary.

    But promising playing time ain't gonna happen.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    Making deals and promises to get a hired gun like Wall for a year would probably increase the talent level. However, it would wreck the chemistry and experience levels. I don't think we'd be better off doing things that way. As evidence, I'd point to programs which do. They have a strong year now and again (Memphis last year), but rarely have sustained, consistent success (Memphis this year).
    I don't think it's fair to include Wall in the "hired gun" group just yet. He may be a Kris Humphries guy who's only looking for an NBA ticket ASAP. But he may also be a very good kid from tough circumstances that would benefit from a father-figure and a stable, supportive environment like Duke. We just don't know.

    I do think a school that brought in Deng, Hump, and Liv in the last four years isn't in a very strong position to take a holier than thou attitude regarding kids with 1 and done talent. Look at UNC, they have built a strong core of 3-4 year guys and topped that off with Marvin Williams/Brandon Wright guys (that we recruited as well) to pretty good results.

    If a kid is simply mercenary with no desire to unpack his bags with the team and the school I completely agree that we don't want him. But there are guys who would join the team completely but also have the talent to jump early (Deng, Brand, JWill). Those guys I think we definitely want and our recruiting bears that out. K and the staff are getting to know Wall right now. If they think he's not looking for anything but a launch pad then I'm sure they will cut him loose. But if he is a good kid who wants to be part of something more than himself and K offers him I think he's a part of the family and we should be very happy to have him.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilCastDownfromDurham View Post
    If a kid is simply mercenary with no desire to unpack his bags with the team and the school I completely agree that we don't want him. But there are guys who would join the team completely but also have the talent to jump early (Deng, Brand, JWill).
    To be fair, JWill left after 3 years WITH a degree he earned in three years - as did Boozer.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    To be fair, JWill left after 3 years WITH a degree he earned in three years - as did Boozer.
    Yup. I just wanted to have a progression (1, 2, 3 year players). Replace JWill with Dun if you prefer.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    So what are you saying? We start Wall, then after 5 minutes bring in Z or Lance and move Kyle back down to the 4? And THEN send Wall to the bench? Seriously, extend your argument and tell me where it goes from there.

    And I thought the point of the original post to which I responded was that playing Kyle at the 5 was our best lineup (don't recall that it said anything about who started or finished there or who came off the bench when).

    Hey, if it came down to a choice between keeping Kyle or getting Wall, that's an easy one in my book. Or do you think it wouldn't make any difference to Kyle if they told him that he'd be playing more time back at the 5 in order to get Wall? He might just decide that it wasn't worth staying at Duke.

    I don't know. Maybe you guys are right. But give me Singler over Wall ANY time. I'm not saying it's an either/or proposition, just that it seems more logical to work things around Kyle's needs than Wall's.
    Obviously I don't know either, but my guess is Kyle would be thrilled to bring in a Wall-type talent and that Kyle doesn't care what position he (Kyle) plays while he's out there. I'd be shocked if who we're bringing in next year would have any effect on Kyle's decision to stay or leave.

    It's possible the post to which you directly responded suggested a lineup with Kyle at the 5 and stated it was our best lineup, but several posters in this thread suggested that lineup for only short periods, and I thought it was alluding to that.

    To answer your first question, in my scenario I don't know or care who would go to the bench when Z or Lance came into the game. Whoever sits down at that point will come back into the game in the flow of the rotation. My point is several players will get 25 to 35 minutes a game next year (including Wall if he's here) so why would it matter who's on the floor at the opening tap? If there are reasons to include Wall in the starting lineup, the fact that Kyle might have to play the 5 for a few minutes is a non-factor.

  8. #288

    ...

    Keep in mind that kyle at the 5 leaves...

    Miles
    Mason
    Kelly
    Z
    LT
    Olek

    all on the bench with 2 guards Elliot and Marty. How would we possibly get them any minutes?

    Kyle will without question start at PF next year (if he stays) unless he somehow ends up playing SF instead. With the size we have coming in Singler will never play the 5 again.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim1515 View Post
    Keep in mind that kyle at the 5 leaves...

    Miles
    Mason
    Kelly
    Z
    LT
    Olek

    all on the bench with 2 guards Elliot and Marty. How would we possibly get them any minutes?

    Kyle will without question start at PF next year (if he stays) unless he somehow ends up playing SF instead. With the size we have coming in Singler will never play the 5 again.
    I hear you and I understand your point, but if the best five players are Kyle and four guards then I think at least occasionally (not often, I agree) you will see that lineup.

  10. #290
    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Rivals Article

    On Rivals, they are teasing a pay article that suggests that Duke is making up ground with Wall. Being a complete cheapo, I cannot read the article. But, it does suggest that we are, which is understandable.

    Just putting it out there.

  11. #291
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Again, though this shout apparantly drifts off into nothingness:

    IF G DOESN"T LEAVE, WALL WILL NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT COME TO DUKE.

    Wall is definitely waiting until after the season to decide. If Duke's starting wing/guard rotation is intact, there is no reason for him to come to Duke.

    Sure, we would love to stockpile a top PG to shore up the depth in the backcourt. But that won't be attractive to Wall, or any top guard really (see Kenny Boynton, who made his decision when G looked bad and was no threat to leave). Without G, there are 30+ mpg and tons of weapons, most of whom will prefer running to half-court sets. With G, there are 20ish mpg available. And don't whine about not wanting kids who aren't willing to compete for minutes. A true frosh, no matter how good, vs two Seniors and a Junior, all of whom know the system and have tons of starting experience. Wall could play great, and still not get a ton of minutes. He could play equally hard at another school and be a national superstar.

    Kyle's decision to return would have little bearing, as incoming and returning players would essentially approximate his production.

    This whole Kyle at the 5 is a pointless discussion. Wall will not come join a backcourt containing Jon, Nolan, AND G. Take any one away, and our wing/guard rotaion looks tasty to a pass first PG.

  12. I'm curious if you have some support (quotes from Wall or his coach/family/etc.) or if this is just your opinion. I could imagine Wall taking that attitude, but I could also imagine him seeing a gaping hole at PG (as of now we have 1 converted SG with a bad back and we can force Jon into the role if desperate).

    Whether or not he would be a "starter" he will get 20+ minutes which is more than Maggette had and probably close to the 30 that made Deng a top 10 pick. He'll also be on TV every game and be the clear leader for ROY. Wall will get major minutes and lots of attention wherever he ends up. Being on the most high-profile team in the nation in a year when they are poised for a title run won't hurt him one bit in terms of exposure.

  13. #293
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilCastDownfromDurham View Post
    I don't think it's fair to include Wall in the "hired gun" group just yet. He may be a Kris Humphries guy who's only looking for an NBA ticket ASAP. But he may also be a very good kid from tough circumstances that would benefit from a father-figure and a stable, supportive environment like Duke. We just don't know.
    You're right. For the sake of brevity (in an already long post) I oversimplified. Wall may not be a kid looking for a place to market his skills for a year before bolting to the NBA. My concern was more the attitude of the post I quoted, that seemed to imply that Duke should be more than willing to, not only take a 1-year-only kid, but also should join in the shady recruiting practices some other schools use to land him. I would prefer to see Coach K target kids who are more likely to stay for 3-4 years to build the team. If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    You're right. For the sake of brevity (in an already long post) I oversimplified. Wall may not be a kid looking for a place to market his skills for a year before bolting to the NBA. My concern was more the attitude of the post I quoted, that seemed to imply that Duke should be more than willing to, not only take a 1-year-only kid, but also should join in the shady recruiting practices some other schools use to land him. I would prefer to see Coach K target kids who are more likely to stay for 3-4 years to build the team. If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.
    We're in 100% agreement on that point. K has done a great job of steering us right in the past in terms of avoiding bad/opportunistic kids and he's generally done very well with keeping the team stocked with talented 3-4 year guys (2004-08 being the exception). I think we all agree that this principle is one to be very proud of and never to deviate from for some hope of short-term success.

    That's the main reason I'm so blase about any character issues for Wall: he has to pass the K test. If K sees anything in Wall's attitude that doesn't look right, he'll move on like he did with Hump and so many others. If, OTOH, Wall passes muster with K I think we'll all be very comfortable welcoming him in to the Duke family since we know he can be trusted.

  15. #295
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.
    Great post. In my view, though, this should be so obvious to everyone in this forum that it never needs stating. However, it appears that I am dead wrong.

  16. #296
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    I'm hoping Plumlee and Kelly are helping with the recruiting every time they see him.

  17. #297
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Caught this on the evening news (WRAL) short while ago: Kelly's Ravenscroft team beat Wall's Word of God team tonight in Raleigh. Kelly led all scorers, I beleive with 28. It would be nice to have them as teammates next year, eh?
    -Son of Jarhead

    The Duke fan formerly known as BuschDevil

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Diddy View Post
    Again, though this shout apparantly drifts off into nothingness:

    IF G DOESN"T LEAVE, WALL WILL NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT COME TO DUKE.

    Wall is definitely waiting until after the season to decide. If Duke's starting wing/guard rotation is intact, there is no reason for him to come to Duke.
    Do you have inside information? Because if you don't, I completely disagree. The top recruits don't think that way. They assume (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that they'll get all the playing time they can handle.

    I remember when Elton Brand was being recruited, and someone asked him a question about having to compete for minutes with other Duke bigs (I think the interviewer was talking about upperclassmen, although he may have been referring to other recruits as well). His response was they'll have to compete with me. Was it a little cocky? Yeah, although in Brand's case it was also true. But the point is I think most of the top recruits think that way.

    So you can shout all you want, but I'd bet Wall's decision will absolutely not be based on whether or not G comes back to school next year. In fact, if G's status affects Wall's decision at all, I'd guess he'd be more likely to come if G's coming back because it would mean a better chance to get to the Final Four.

    Just my opinion, of course.

  19. #299
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Triangle
    Quote Originally Posted by BuschDevil View Post
    Caught this on the evening news (WRAL) short while ago: Kelly's Ravenscroft team beat Wall's Word of God team tonight in Raleigh. Kelly led all scorers, I beleive with 28. It would be nice to have them as teammates next year, eh?
    Kelly had 23 and his team won 68-57. Wall had 17 and CJ Leslie 20 for WOG. Kelly also had 7 rebounds and was 8-15 from the field. It was a big win for Ravenscroft. The two teams play again this season.

  20. #300
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Triangle
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Do you have inside information? Because if you don't, I completely disagree. The top recruits don't think that way. They assume (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that they'll get all the playing time they can handle.

    I remember when Elton Brand was being recruited, and someone asked him a question about having to compete for minutes with other Duke bigs (I think the interviewer was talking about upperclassmen, although he may have been referring to other recruits as well). His response was they'll have to compete with me. Was it a little cocky? Yeah, although in Brand's case it was also true. But the point is I think most of the top recruits think that way.

    So you can shout all you want, but I'd bet Wall's decision will absolutely not be based on whether or not G comes back to school next year. In fact, if G's status affects Wall's decision at all, I'd guess he'd be more likely to come if G's coming back because it would mean a better chance to get to the Final Four.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    I have a similar opinion, but let it go thinking someone else would step to the plate and you did.

    The reason Wall wil go to (and I won't shout) May, is that he is truly undecided. While he will take into consideration who is on the rosters, he is not the type to shy for previously mentioned reasons.

    I base my take on talks I've had with pretty much everyone involved in Walls recruiting.

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