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  1. #1
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    Feb 2007
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    ACC considers change on underclassmen declaring for draft

    Pretty interesting article from the N&O today:
    http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...y/1270131.html

    In a nutshell, the ACC wants to change the deadline on declaring for the draft to 10 days after the NCAA championship game, and getting rid of the situations where guys can stay in the draft until late in June because they don't have an agent. I think the changes would make it a lot harder on the players to know where they could go in the draft, and more guys would declare for the draft and get disappointed. On the flip side, the coaches will be all for this because they would know exactly how many scholarships they would have soon after the season was over.

    The article also talks about how the deadline in college football is very soon after the last bowl game. In the NFL, there is an advisory committee for underclassmen set up to tell the players where they can expect to go in the draft before they declare; the NBA would be wise to set up a similar system.

  2. #2
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    That system stinks for a kid who actually plays in the NCAA Championship game. He's got 10 days to accumulate information and make a decision, whereas a guy whose team lost in the first round has twice that time. I assume coaches spend more than ten days making calls for their players with various NBA contacts, so coaches would have to be making calls for guys while simultaneously preparing for NCAA games, which is to say these calls probably would not get made. There are many guys whose stock rises or falls siginificantly enough in pre-draft workouts too.

    Overall, I think it's a poor idea.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    That system stinks for a kid who actually plays in the NCAA Championship game. He's got 10 days to accumulate information and make a decision, whereas a guy whose team lost in the first round has twice that time. I assume coaches spend more than ten days making calls for their players with various NBA contacts, so coaches would have to be making calls for guys while simultaneously preparing for NCAA games, which is to say these calls probably would not get made. There are many guys whose stock rises or falls siginificantly enough in pre-draft workouts too.

    Overall, I think it's a poor idea.
    I'd have to agree with Edouble......especially if other conferences don't follow our lead. The ACC does not need any negative impacts on recruiting. Any hinderance to a player's ability to get into the NBA might affect decision making.

  4. #4
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    Aug 2008

    Good Idea

    Maybe not so much for the workout wonders, but overall it would be good.

    The short window would scare kids who are on the fence back into college where they probably belong. The late deciders are the true killers. Joe Alexander is a great example. He had a good late season run, and decided to test without an agent. He worked out in a gym for a few months, then tore up NBA workouts, thus becoming a late lottery pick. Good for him. Bad for WVU. And in reality, bad for Joe Alexander.

    WVU loses at late blossoming stud. Heck, they only had 1/2 of a good year out of him. The rest was prep work. With him on this year's team, they would've been top 25, maybe top 15. He needed the extra time in school to hone his game for the pros.

    For a closer look, does anyone here think that Luol Deng would've left Duke if he'd only had 10 days to decide? Or Corey Maggette? What would those guys have ment to Duke as Sophs? Those two decisions cost us two runs at NC's and we all know it. I am not saying we would've won, but we would've been serious contenders. Heck, Shav might've come back also, and that would've worked out ok too.

    The reason for this has a few components. One, it would be hard to make a decision to leave a place like Duke while school is in session. Cool coeds, fun weekends, good times. But once school is over for the summer, those memories get a little hazy. Also, it would be hard facing your fellow students if you suddenly abandonded them. Corey, Will, Elton, and Loul all waited until exams were safely over, and they were away from campus, before announcing their desertions.

    Then the real nightmare arrives on the scene. The "Entourage." Sleazy hanger's on, quasi street agents, even legitimate agents, and friends and family that have their own best interest in mind start getting to the kid. This is a time when the athlete is away from school. College coaches have a tough time reaching a player to make their own case. This entourage starts filling the kids head with half truths or outright lies. Sometimes this is deliberate, sometimes it is just self delusional non-sense. It is hard for a 18-21 year old to know what to do. So they take the quick money and run. In reality, nearly all of them could use at least 3 years in college to hone their bodies and their games. But the entourage encourages them to take the quick money and run.

    Meanwhile (and this is selfish, I don't care) the schools and fans are left to shake in the wind. How is Duke supposed to replace a Corey Maggette or Luol Deng in bloody May? They can't. Heck, they can't even get close to replacing a kid like that. Thus we get hosed. If a kid is having a great, as expected, year, then a coach should have made plans for a least a close skilled replacement. Heck, the kid may even tell the coach that "if I have the year you and I expect then I will seriously consider going pro". Fine, the coach is on notice to recruit a replacement, and can in fact tell the replacement that said recruit will be replacing a playe, not competing with a superstar already in place.

    The current system favors the NBA first, players a distant second, and completely fornicates-with-an-Iron-Stick the colleges that trained the kids and the fans that pump a fortune into the sport by following the college teams. It is not fair to the schools or their fans. A shorter window would force the NBA to evaluate a player over the course of a season, not just a few workouts, and it would force players who aren't ready to go back to school just in case.

    The only people who get shafted by a shorter window are those kids who are frauds that string together 5-6 good games in late Feb-March and fool an NBA team into drafting them based on those few good games and a workout that means nothing with regard to game performance. These players use the long window, and a few good workouts, to get a contract they do not deserve. They can't replicate that performance for any extended time. With another year in school they might be ready for the pros, but they might never be ready. Frauds don't deserve to be rewarded.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diddy View Post
    The short window would scare kids who are on the fence back into college where they probably belong.
    Or the immediacy of the decision making process coupled with the NCAA buzz would send the wrong kids into the draft. I think you have a very good, and clearly well thought out post with many good points, but a with a few of your points, like the one above, it is impossible to tell how things would actually turn out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diddy View Post
    Corey, Will, Elton, and Loul all waited until exams were safely over, and they were away from campus, before announcing their desertions.
    I think you're wrong about this one. I randomly saw Elton on campus and wished him good luck in the pros. I remember being on campus for at least two of the three 1999 announcements. They may have laid low, but classes were not over.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    That system stinks for a kid who actually plays in the NCAA Championship game. He's got 10 days to accumulate information and make a decision, whereas a guy whose team lost in the first round has twice that time. I assume coaches spend more than ten days making calls for their players with various NBA contacts, so coaches would have to be making calls for guys while simultaneously preparing for NCAA games, which is to say these calls probably would not get made. There are many guys whose stock rises or falls siginificantly enough in pre-draft workouts too.

    Overall, I think it's a poor idea.
    You make a good point and in fact a lot of the NBA prospects will carry their teams far into the tourney.

    Can be remedied by setting later of a a fixed date like April 20th or 30 days after their team;s last played game, to equalize for every team/player.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Diddy View Post
    Meanwhile (and this is selfish, I don't care) the schools and fans are left to shake in the wind.
    I'm glad you realize it's selfish. Who are we to think that our enjoyment of a mere game outweighs the welfare of those who make that entertainment possible? Do fans really have the right to expect players to make decisions that benefit us at their cost?

    If you want to argue that staying in college might increase their NPV afterwards, then great, make that argument; but what I'm taking away from Diddy's post is that players' NPV do not matter -- it's our ability to consume entertainment from those players that matter most. That, I think is selfish.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyuwono View Post
    I'm glad you realize it's selfish. Who are we to think that our enjoyment of a mere game outweighs the welfare of those who make that entertainment possible? Do fans really have the right to expect players to make decisions that benefit us at their cost?

    If you want to argue that staying in college might increase their NPV afterwards, then great, make that argument; but what I'm taking away from Diddy's post is that players' NPV do not matter -- it's our ability to consume entertainment from those players that matter most. That, I think is selfish.
    I agree. In many cases (e.g., Will Avery) one can make a good argument that leaving too early hurts the player's lifetime earnings. But if that's not the case (e.g., Elton Brand) the kid ought to do what's best for him and his family. Period. The fans shouldn't even be part of the equation.

  9. #9
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    Feb 2007
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    Durham, NC
    I agree that the fans have nothing to do with it; however, the schools and coaches have a right to know. That being said, there isn't much that can be done to replace these players for the following year, anyway. Most top prospects have already committed and received scholarship offers long before the spring.

    If we had known Luol was leaving a few weeks/months earlier, what would that have changed? Players make their decisions based on what is best for their situation, not the program. It's best that they make these decisions well after their team has finished playing.

  10. #10
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    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by pbc2 View Post
    Players make their decisions based on what is best for their situation, not the program.
    And we should never have it any other way, which is why I hate the one-year rule. If someone is qualified to play in the NBA, it really shouldn't matter how many years of college they've had. No reason for a guy like Oden to risk injury playing amateur ball for one year.

    I really wish there were a way to clean up the NBA pseudo-agent mess, though. The information the kids get from agents is anything but transparent. The lack of a council similar to the one the NFL has only adds to the confusion. The NBA definitely needs to make the draft process as transparent as possible. To do that, however, I think the deadline to declare still must be later rather than sooner.

  11. #11
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    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Diddy View Post

    For a closer look, does anyone here think that Luol Deng would've left Duke if he'd only had 10 days to decide? Or Corey Maggette? What would those guys have ment to Duke as Sophs? Those two decisions cost us two runs at NC's and we all know it. I am not saying we would've won, but we would've been serious contenders. Heck, Shav might've come back also, and that would've worked out ok too.
    Good post. I think you can also put Mike Dunleavy on the above list. He vaulted up lists with a good run in the NCAAs, then declared relatively late to lots of folks' surprise (certainly mine).

  12. #12
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    Deeetroit City
    The ACC is proposing that the NCAA change the rule. The ACC won't unilaterally change the rule as applied to its players.

    We would have lost Magette no matter what (see: Piggie, Myron)

    Avery's decision was supposedly made on need and not NBA feedback (others say it was made due to academics or lack thereof).

    We lose Luol, Elton and Dunleavy under any circumstances as high lottery picks.

    Realistically, there is little any program can do at that stage of the season to "replace" players who choose to go pro at the end of the season. There are few top 100 recruits uncommitted at that time, and particularly any recruits that can "replace" a potential NBA player.

    The rule should be changed to limit the amount of time a player can spend chasing the NBA while remaining a "STUDENT athletes". Ten days is too short, but 2 months is WAY too long.

  13. #13
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    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    In my opinion, the real issue is whether you view college as minor leagues for the NBA or not. I do not view college as minor league, and I don't give a flying fig whether a player makes it in the pros or not.
    If you view college as minor leagues, then you want the minimum commitment for the player. If you do not, you want the maximum commitment.
    Seems to me that baseball (as many prior posters in other threads have discussed) has pretty close to a perfect solution. Either you commit to the pros immediately out of high school, or you commit to college for at least three years. I don't see anything wrong with forcing an eighteen year old (who, if good, is a potential multi-zillionaire) to put his hand in the fire. I think commitment is good, and that people need to live up to their commitments (nothwithstanding, of course, the fact that many coaches do not!).
    So what about kids who are not good enough for the NBA straight out of high school, but who screw up their college education? Speaking as one who screwed up his own early college, I paid the price by finding that my "Uncle" had a very special job for me. After two years, I ran back to college until they wouldn't let me stay any longer. We don't have the military draft anymore, and I am not arguing for that, but it seems that a young man who wants to play in the NBA, and decides to stay in school, will make a very serious effort to comply with the rules and succeed.
    I am betting that this whole issue will be raised again and again. To get back to the OP's topic, I don't think the 10 day (or even X day) rule will help the problem.
    I would be interested in hearing a better proposal than the baseball rule.

  14. #14
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    South Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    The ACC is proposing that the NCAA change the rule. The ACC won't unilaterally change the rule as applied to its players.

    We would have lost Magette no matter what (see: Piggie, Myron)

    Avery's decision was supposedly made on need and not NBA feedback (others say it was made due to academics or lack thereof).
    I don't think Avery left due to need. His mom worked at the same government facility I did, and the salaries were good for the "blue collar" skilled jobs, such as she had.

  15. #15
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    I am very much in favor of the ACC's proposal. Ideally I would prefer the same rule as baseball. Too many kids who are not ready convince themselves they are in the current process. Plus it is not fair to the school, the coach, and certainly not the other players on the team. A player has the entire season to decide to declare or not, so I for one do not see a 10 Day window at the end of the season as too short. Make a decision and move on, and if you declare, best of luck because there is no coming back.

  16. #16
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    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    This is confusing. You are very much in favor of the ten day rule, but you really liike the baseball approach. I see no connection at all between those two answers. I favor the baseball rule. Which do you favor? Baseball or 10 day -- you can't have both.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    This is confusing. You are very much in favor of the ten day rule, but you really liike the baseball approach. I see no connection at all between those two answers. I favor the baseball rule. Which do you favor? Baseball or 10 day -- you can't have both.
    I stated that ideally I prefer the baseball rule. But since I have seen nothing to suggest that will ever be considered, I am very much in favor of the ACC proposal as an alternative option.

    I recognize we cannot have both. I just hate the current process as well as the One And Done rule.

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