Duke team preview

[Indoor66]

I have to agree! John's overall game is NBA worthy for sure. All he needs is some protein shakes.

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

"In Mullin's first three seasons with the Warriors, he was primarily a spot-up shooting guard playing in the backcourt alongside Eric "Sleepy" Floyd. Effort more than physicality marked Mullin's playing style. Somewhat lanky at 215 pounds and six-foot seven inches, Mullin managed to hold his own. He was a dead-eye outside shooter and could go to either his left or right and shoot with either hand, despite being naturally left-handed. This made him difficult for many NBA small forwards to guard. In fact, he was compared to NBA legend Larry Bird because both players lacked speed, had a great outside shot and had the innate ability to put their defender off guard."

Sounds about right to me - I especially like the comparison to Larry Legend.

Except that Jon has better speed and quickness.

[SupaDave]

Except that Jon has better speed and quickness.

Well that's just a result of the steroids in Chik-Fil-a and McDonald's food products.

Naw, not only is he quicker but something me and the homies love to watch is his Dennis Rodman like knowledge of how the ball comes off the rim. Noone has mentioned that but we have marvelled at his ability to get rebounds.

Rodman spent hours studying people's shots for rebound clues - Scheyer is just innate with it...

[Jumbo]

I have to agree! John's overall game is NBA worthy for sure. All he needs is some protein shakes.

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

"In Mullin's first three seasons with the Warriors, he was primarily a spot-up shooting guard playing in the backcourt alongside Eric "Sleepy" Floyd. Effort more than physicality marked Mullin's playing style. Somewhat lanky at 215 pounds and six-foot seven inches, Mullin managed to hold his own. He was a dead-eye outside shooter and could go to either his left or right and shoot with either hand, despite being naturally left-handed. This made him difficult for many NBA small forwards to guard. In fact, he was compared to NBA legend Larry Bird because both players lacked speed, had a great outside shot and had the innate ability to put their defender off guard."

Sounds about right to me - I especially like the comparison to Larry Legend.

It's "Jon." And "Mullin." And I don't see any comparison between the two. Mullin had two or three inches on Scheyer. Mullin was also incredibly slow, but one of the best shooters I've ever seen. Mullin was basically a true SF. Scheyer is a true guard. Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

[ncexnyc]

Anyone who doesn't think Scheyer is a great player is advised to go back and watch our game at Miami last year, when Scheyer put the team on his back and almost singlehandedly pulled off an amazing comeback, scoring 27 points in the processs.

Jon has indeed shown he is capable of having a very good game, but using the word, "great" to describe him at this point in time is stretching it.

I believe that putting up stats on a CONSISTENT basis, another words every game is what defines greatness. Does Jon have that potential? Most definitely, but until he does it game in and game out, let's refrain from calling him GREAT!

[Kedsy]

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

I don't want to get into how good Jon Scheyer is or whether he's a lock for the NBA or not, but I do want to say that I saw Chris Mullin play at St. Johns and, at least so far, there's no comparison. Mullin was WAY better than anything Jon has showed so far. It's not even close. He was also the 7th pick of the NBA draft, which is significantly higher than any objective observer would predict for Scheyer.

Now, personally, I don't understand why people need to compare current players to past players at all. It seems counter-productive to me. The kid is the next Jon Scheyer, he doesn't have to be the next Chris Mullin, or the next Larry Bird, or even the next JJ Redick, as many billed him before he arrived at school. And [BEGIN RANT] this is neither here, nor there, but how come when people make these comparisons they almost always compare white players to white players and black players to black players? Why do you have to look like someone in order to play like them? Why don't people say Jon Scheyer the next Daniel Ewing? Not that Scheyer's game is all that similar to Ewing's, but it's as close to Ewing's as it is to Redick's or Mullin's or Bird's. That's all I'm saying. [END RANT]

[Kedsy]

Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

Me too, obviously. But I guess my rant was unnecessary. I hadn't seen this post before I posted mine. Sorry.

[RepoMan]

We should note that SupaDave also compared him to Dennis Rodman, which I suspect is not only the first and only time that anyone has ever compared Jon Scheyer to Dennis Rodman, but also is a white/black comparison. (That said, I 100% agree with the observations of jumbo and Kedsy.)

[SupaDave]

It's "Jon." And "Mullin." And I don't see any comparison between the two. Mullin had two or three inches on Scheyer. Mullin was also incredibly slow, but one of the best shooters I've ever seen. Mullin was basically a true SF. Scheyer is a true guard. Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

Well forgive me for comparing him to an NBA player. Sheesh! We've already said he was quicker than Mullin so what's the gripe about? Get over it. I don't think you need to protect every players merits - ESPECIALLY when I'm agreeing with you. You're driving yourself nuts.

Quite frankly I can't think of ANY black player that he reminds me of. For starters it's just too doggone many. Glen Rice? No. B.J. Armstrong? No. Jordan? Ummm... NO.

AND I disagree - when I thought of a comparison for JON, I thought of one that included a shooter who didn't have great defense or drive to the basket much but was an EXCEPTIONAL player. Mullin was undersized - as IS Jon. Jon is simply not physically developed enough to be compared to MANY players.

IF I had to compare him to a black player (geez) - the closest I would come is Ray Allen and he's already better than Allen in some aspects and is NOT as good a shooter so that kills the Ray Allen comparisons.

Wait - I've got it - he reminds me of Craig Hodges!!!! Definitely Craig Hodges...

[SupaDave]

We should note that SupaDave also compared him to Dennis Rodman, which I suspect is not only the first and only time that anyone has ever compared Jon Scheyer to Dennis Rodman, but also is a white/black comparison. (That said, I 100% agree with the observations of jumbo and Kedsy.)

Exactly - I compared him to a white AND a black player right after each other.

I'm looking at skill sets and body type. If he was dunking and hanging on to the rim then I would say he reminds me of Shaq. If he was dunking at all then I might say Bob Sura. If he was an incredible lefty that drove to the rim often then I just might say Bo Kimble.

People even compared Yao Ming to others and if you didn't know it - he's Asian. I'm pretty sure they used skills sets for Yao but now every Asian player after Yao is compared to Yao for the sake of their differences.

We do it all the time and most times without merit. I'm sure you realize how many "Baby Jordans" and "Baby Shaqs" there have been. Just ask Grant, Stackhouse, Vince, Harold Minor, and Kendrick Perkins. It's all part of the fun.

[quickgtp]

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that for some reason, he won't start today (did you even realize there's an exhibition game today?), go for it. Scheyer will be the opening-day starter. Three positions are locked in stone -- Scheyer's, Singler's and Henderson's (obviously, someone could get hurt). The coaching staff is building things around him.

If you've been paying attention, this has been confirmed by numerous sources. You could probably roll up today, ask Coach K himself, and he'd agree. But if you want to keep suggesting that, for some reason, he won't start, go for it. Your opinion is based on absolutely no information, but, hey that doesn't matter, right?

Since when was this a discussion about him starting today?

I have been paying attention, but again, since you are not in the locker room, or in the coaches meetings, I say anything is possible. Did you not read where I stated he would probably start? I said a 0% chance was crazy talk. My information is based on "absolutely no information?" How is that?

[quickgtp]

Yeah, scouts, GMs, etc. often post "links" when talking about college prospects. And I always link my private conversations with them. See, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. In the process, you are displaying an limited understanding of the game. Your description of Scheyer, of course, displays absolutely no nuance, and sounds like your stereotypical white point guard. In fact, he's not a burner, but he's not slow. One of the things scouts like is his defense, particularly the way he denies on the wing. They like his dribble moves and love his one-dribble pullup (you don't have to get all the way to the rim to be effective off the dribble). They think he's a good all-around player. If he needs to improve anything, it's actually his shooting -- so far, he's been good, but he needs to knock down shots more regularly to separate himself. But, hey, if you want to call me crazy and make comments like those above, you're just revealing more about your own lack of information and comprehension than anything else.

Why does race have to do ANYTHING with his? Let that card go my friend.

When did I say Jon was slow? I said he wasn't fast enough. Hid defense on the wing? Yeah, it's pretty good, for college, but for the NBA? No, not strong enough to make him a "lock."

LOL, you keep referring to my lack of understanding yet you have NOTHING to back up your "lock." If you do, you need to prove it.

[Jumbo]

Since when was this a discussion about him starting today?

Uh, the whole time? What did you think we were talking about? The starting lineup for some random game in January? We've been discussing Duke's starting lineup for the opener.

I have been paying attention, but again, since you are not in the locker room, or in the coaches meetings, I say anything is possible.

You know, I'm not in the kitchen at McDonald's, so I say it's possible that employees there are using alien technology to feed us human/cat hybrid burgers. And just because I'm not in the locker room or in the coaches meetings doesn't mean people who are in the locker room or coaches meetings don't pass info along.

Did you not read where I stated he would probably start? I said a 0% chance was crazy talk. My information is based on "absolutely no information?" How is that?

Thisi s very simple. Everything people are saying (publicly and privately) directly says that three spots are locked down (Singler's, Scheyer's and Henderson's) and that the team is being built around those three players. So, yeah, I'm going to take Coach K's public words, plus other private words as "information." If he's going to start, it mean's there's no chance he won't start (at the beginning of the season, save for injury, since that's the topic). So, one what are you basing the idea that there's better than a zero percent chance that he won't start? That basis would be known as "information."

Why does race have to do ANYTHING with his? Let that card go my friend.

Gee, I dunno. Seems like it bugs a lot of people. For three years, he's been compared constantly to white players. This is nothing new. Dunleavy went through the same thing. So did Laettner, Hurley, whomever. As others have said, it would be refreshing if people didn't solely make comparisons between players of the same race.

When did I say Jon was slow? I said he wasn't fast enough.

That's incredible parsing. "Not fast enough" = "too slow," my friend.

Hid defense on the wing? Yeah, it's pretty good, for college, but for the NBA? No, not strong enough to make him a "lock."

No, it's exceptional for college, and more than good enough for the NBA. I'd be a bit more concerned about his on-ball D at the pro level, and not because of quickness, but strength. But I've seen fewer players in all my time watching basketball who are more adept at chasing players through screens after screen and denying them the ball on the wing as Scheyer. If you don't believe me, ask Mr. Ellington down the road. Or just look at his numbers vs. Scheyer.

LOL, you keep referring to my lack of understanding yet you have NOTHING to back up your "lock." If you do, you need to prove it.

I've told you what NBA personnel people have told me. You can choose to ignore that information, but most people understand that I have no motive to invent anything here. You can be contrary all you want, but it's just making you look silly. He'll play at the next level. Your comments about his not being able to guard NBA wings are misguided -- heck, look what he did to Thaddeus Young when both were frosh, and Young is about to start at the THREE for Philly this season. But I'm not going to throw a bunch of names around and burn people who tell me things, just to satisfy your desire for "proof." So do what you want, doubt all you want, mock all you want. Just don't choke on your own saliva when he gets drafted in June of 2010.

[quickgtp]

Uh, the whole time? What did you think we were talking about? The starting lineup for some random game in January? We've been discussing Duke's starting lineup for the opener.

I am talking about the starting lineup at the beginning of the season. I guess these exhibition games will count against the NCAA records just because you feel they should, right?


You know, I'm not in the kitchen at McDonald's, so I say it's possible that employees there are using alien technology to feed us human/cat hybrid burgers. And just because I'm not in the locker room or in the coaches meetings doesn't mean people who are in the locker room or coaches meetings don't pass info along.

This is just something else that you can't prove. You are not the one in the locker room so your word means nothing.



Thisi s very simple. Everything people are saying (publicly and privately) directly says that three spots are locked down (Singler's, Scheyer's and Henderson's) and that the team is being built around those three players. So, yeah, I'm going to take Coach K's public words, plus other private words as "information." If he's going to start, it mean's there's no chance he won't start (at the beginning of the season, save for injury, since that's the topic). So, one what are you basing the idea that there's better than a zero percent chance that he won't start? That basis would be known as "information."

I never said Scheyer wouldn't start, I stated that a 0% chance would be crazy. That just assumes Scheyer will never go cold, go very inconsistent, or get injured for that matter. Are those things probable? No, not IMO, but they COULD happen. So 0%, again, is crazy talk. BTW, for someone that remarks on the spelling of others, remember that "this is" is not "thisi s."



Gee, I dunno. Seems like it bugs a lot of people. For three years, he's been compared constantly to white players. This is nothing new. Dunleavy went through the same thing. So did Laettner, Hurley, whomever. As others have said, it would be refreshing if people didn't solely make comparisons between players of the same race.

Bugs A LOT of people? Well, it doesn't bug me because I do not read too far into it. Let the race card go. If one white player happens to resemble another white player so be it.


That's incredible parsing. "Not fast enough" = "too slow," my friend.

So "not fast enough" = "slow" or "too slow" now? OK, I get it, you now have the authority to put words in my mouth.


No, it's exceptional for college, and more than good enough for the NBA. I'd be a bit more concerned about his on-ball D at the pro level, and not because of quickness, but strength. But I've seen fewer players in all my time watching basketball who are more adept at chasing players through screens after screen and denying them the ball on the wing as Scheyer. If you don't believe me, ask Mr. Ellington down the road. Or just look at his numbers vs. Scheyer.

Mr. Ellington? That's your NBA reference? Wayne will be lucky to get selected in the early 2nd round, and just because Jon did "well" against him he is now an exceptional defender? WOW, it's amazing that numerous NBA draft sources aren't even talking about Jon in the draft in 2 years, let alone next year. Somehow though, he's a lock. LMAO, this is funny!



I've told you what NBA personnel people have told me. You can choose to ignore that information, but most people understand that I have no motive to invent anything here. You can be contrary all you want, but it's just making you look silly. He'll play at the next level. Your comments about his not being able to guard NBA wings are misguided -- heck, look what he did to Thaddeus Young when both were frosh, and Young is about to start at the THREE for Philly this season. But I'm not going to throw a bunch of names around and burn people who tell me things, just to satisfy your desire for "proof." So do what you want, doubt all you want, mock all you want. Just don't choke on your own saliva when he gets drafted in June of 2010.

Which NBA people? If they indeed told you this, a name drop won't be a bad thing. I am not sure what your motives are here, but this is ridiculous. I like Jon a lot, but an NBA lock at this point? No.

Making ME look silly? Do you actually believe I care what you think? You are a moderator on a Duke message board. Does this mean you will suspend or ban me for disagreeing with you?

He may get drafted in 2010, but at this point, he wouldn't get drafted. He still has some work to do.

[quickgtp]

I have no personal affiliation with any of the following sites so there should not be any need to erase due to SPAM/Marketing. This just shows that Jon isn't ready, and you need to reevaluate your thoughts on this matter:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Scheyer-1043/

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2010_nba_mock_draft.html

http://dimemag.com/2008/02/is-jon-sc...an-nba-player/

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-dra...t-ar49217.html

In your defense I did find one site that had Scheyer @ 28. I am not here to bash Jon, or to say he could never make the NBA. That would be foolish to say. But to say he is a lock at this point is just as foolish IMO.

[MChambers]

I have no personal affiliation with any of the following sites so there should not be any need to erase due to SPAM/Marketing. This just shows that Jon isn't ready, and you need to reevaluate your thoughts on this matter:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Scheyer-1043/

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2010_nba_mock_draft.html

http://dimemag.com/2008/02/is-jon-sc...an-nba-player/

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-dra...t-ar49217.html

In your defense I did find one site that had Scheyer @ 28. I am not here to bash Jon, or to say he could never make the NBA. That would be foolish to say. But to say he is a lock at this point is just as foolish IMO.

How many of those urls are for sites run by NBA scouts? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero. They are fun sites to read, but don't expect all of us to concede that they are right.

Even better, NBAdraft.net has Ellington at 17 next year. Seems to me that supports Jumbo's argument and undercuts yours.

[quickgtp]

How many of those urls are for sites run by NBA scouts? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero. They are fun sites to read, but don't expect all of us to concede that they are right.

Even better, NBAdraft.net has Ellington at 17 next year. Seems to me that supports Jumbo's argument and undercuts yours.

That I am not sure of, but a couple of those have been VERY accurate the past 3+ years. My argument can't be undercut until Jumbo validates his "sources."

Mchambers, I take it you agree Scheyer is ready for the NBA today? He is a good college player, yes, but a lock for the NBA? No, not at this point.

[Jumbo]

Which NBA people? If they indeed told you this, a name drop won't be a bad thing. I am not sure what your motives are here, but this is ridiculous. I like Jon a lot, but an NBA lock at this point? No.

Making ME look silly? Do you actually believe I care what you think? You are a moderator on a Duke message board. Does this mean you will suspend or ban me for disagreeing with you?

He may get drafted in 2010, but at this point, he wouldn't get drafted. He still has some work to do.

Ban you? Suspend you? Hardly. I don't moderate threads in which I post, and I certainly don't think people should be moderated for disagreeing with me. But I'm also not going to sit here and allow you to make erroneous or misleading comments when I'm trying to share decent info with the rest of the board.

I also happen to know some people who write for the sites you linked in your subsequent, and in most cases, their access to information is roughly equivalent to that of the average Internet poster. They're not talking to scouts that often, especially about the 2010 draft. It's guess-work. And when they do get to talk to scouts, they're not asking about Jon Scheyer, because he's not on their radar yet. He's been a solid player for two years on a team that hasn't progressed past the first weekend of the tourney. They're focusing on bigger names. That's how it works. But, I'm absolutely not going to "name drop" people in NBA front offices because some anonymous Internet poster thinks I'm lying (for some strange reason), especially when they aren't publicly allowed to discuss college players and talk to me with the understanding that I'll protect their identity. Give me a break.

I've been here a dozen years, and am prone to many things. (I wish I wouldn't get sucked into arguments like these, for instance.) But hyperbole isn't one of them. In fact, I've spent far more time warning against outsized expectations than building hype. I never expected DeMarcus Nelson to make the NBA. You've read my opinions about Olek Czyz's role this year. From Chris Burgess to Michael Thompson to Nick Horvath, I've generally tried to balance expectations. I have absolutely no reason to hype up Scheyer -- it's not like his NBA future will have any impact on my life. I'm purely passing along what I've been told by people I trust. I think I know the game very well, and I'm trying to pass along some observations about more subtle skills that tend to get overlooked. Most people appreciate that.

You, on the other hand, have been here since April, and seem determined argue and attack. Like here. Or maybe you're just upset because you were saying stuff like this all summer. Beats me. But I'm done with this argument. You may have as many last words as you'd like.

[Jumbo]

That I am not sure of, but a couple of those have been VERY accurate the past 3+ years. My argument can't be undercut until Jumbo validates his "sources."

Mchambers, I take it you agree Scheyer is ready for the NBA today? He is a good college player, yes, but a lock for the NBA? No, not at this point.

Sorry, one last thing. I never said Scheyer is "ready for the NBA today." Maybe you're just not comprehending what I'm saying. I said he's a lock to play in the NBA. Not today. Not next season. But with two more years of strength, experience, etc. Big difference. Anyway, carry on ...

[kinghoops]

no inside information here, just my honest opinion, jon is just starting his junior year, im pretty sure with two more years of growth and experience, it is very resonable that he will be drafted in 2010. he is a decent ball handler, very good defender and has i a very hi basketball IQ. he can create his own shot , and is pretty strong going to the basket as a guard, if he develops his shot more, i wouldnt be suprised if wasnt a first round pick...

i think he compares favorably to ellington, who if im not mistaken, is projected as a mid first rounder for next year

[quickgtp]

Ban you? Suspend you? Hardly. I don't moderate threads in which I post, and I certainly don't think people should be moderated for disagreeing with me. But I'm also not going to sit here and allow you to make erroneous or misleading comments when I'm trying to share decent info with the rest of the board.

I also happen to know some people who write for the sites you linked in your subsequent, and in most cases, their access to information is roughly equivalent to that of the average Internet poster. They're not talking to scouts that often, especially about the 2010 draft. It's guess-work. And when they do get to talk to scouts, they're not asking about Jon Scheyer, because he's not on their radar yet. He's been a solid player for two years on a team that hasn't progressed past the first weekend of the tourney. They're focusing on bigger names. That's how it works. But, I'm absolutely not going to "name drop" people in NBA front offices because some anonymous Internet poster thinks I'm lying (for some strange reason), especially when they aren't publicly allowed to discuss college players and talk to me with the understanding that I'll protect their identity. Give me a break.

I've been here a dozen years, and am prone to many things. (I wish I wouldn't get sucked into arguments like these, for instance.) But hyperbole isn't one of them. In fact, I've spent far more time warning against outsized expectations than building hype. I never expected DeMarcus Nelson to make the NBA. You've read my opinions about Olek Czyz's role this year. From Chris Burgess to Michael Thompson to Nick Horvath, I've generally tried to balance expectations. I have absolutely no reason to hype up Scheyer -- it's not like his NBA future will have any impact on my life. I'm purely passing along what I've been told by people I trust. I think I know the game very well, and I'm trying to pass along some observations about more subtle skills that tend to get overlooked. Most people appreciate that.

You, on the other hand, have been here since April, and seem determined argue and attack. Like here. Or maybe you're just upset because you were saying stuff like this all summer. Beats me. But I'm done with this argument. You may have as many last words as you'd like.

Ah so now he's not a lock TODAY, rather down the road. LOL, good gear switching there my friend! I am not here to argue, but it is rather difficult to watch you go after and "correct" alot of people that have differing opinions than yours.

Yes, I said Miles wouldn't start as a freshman. It is still pre-season, and we haven't played anyone that resemble a D1 team as of yet. Things could very well change. Heck, I hope I'm wrong, because then we have the missing piece in the post.

I am not sure that is as crazy as saying Jon is a lock for the NBA though...

That excuse to "protect" names is absurd. You act as if you are holding/relaying information for a top secret government grouping.

I don't need the last word here. My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted.