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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by footballfan2 View Post
    Well to have Duke above Clemson, Miami, and Maryland (I assume these were before the weekend results) just shows you how "good" these Sagarin ratings are. Not very.
    You assume wrong. The rankings are through games played on October 4th.

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt08.htm
    Bob Green

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by footballfan2 View Post
    Well to have Duke above Clemson, Miami, and Maryland (I assume these were before the weekend results) just shows you how "good" these Sagarin ratings are. Not very.
    Given that Duke beat up Va. and Va. beat up Md., it makes sense that they are ahead. Even if they were prior to this weekend, I would have put Duke ahead of Md. I'm surprised about Clemson and Miami however.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by devilirium View Post
    Tech was rushing 3 and dropping 8 at that point against backups, so of course Zack had time to throw..Lewis experienced the same thing in the 4th qtr...Can Zack read a defense? That's what I've always wondered. Why is it that the QB draws are always called for him? It's not merely because he's a better runner. If there isn't a quick swing pass or slant available, then Zack is tucking the ball and running...sometimes to good effect. I don't think that it's an accident that his offensive package hasn't changed from Coach Roof to Coach Cutcliffe. He doesn't have a Division 1 arm. Ray Charles could see that. He's a good teammate and an adequate backup, though.
    The play I referred to was Zack's series in the 2nd quarter. On his one pass play Tech was rushing 6. When he got in at the end of the game again, maybe there were rushing 3, I do not recall. And, I would suggest to you that getting the ball quickly over the middle is crucial to relieving pressure from the pass rush, and Zack and Thad are not equal in this ability. Particularly against taller teams, Zack's ability is superior.

    Regarding Zack's ability to read defenses, you are aware that Zack was Freshman All American honorable mention? That he outplayed Thad in the Spring Game and in half of the fall camp scrimmages? When Zack was a freshman he was 26-43-1 for 328 yards versus a big opponent in Clemson, http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...&ATCLID=210920

    I am not saying its a shoe in that Zack replaces Thad as the starter, while I think he is the better qb against the big boys. I think it is equally possible that Renfree comes in.

  4. #144
    I don't discount that Zack has had his moments. I believe that he had a pretty good game against the Naval Academy as well. Thad's coming out party was a big game vs Wake Forest (who finished first that year). Had Jomar Wright hauled in a wide open pass for a TD or Surgan made that FG, that they would've defeated the eventual first place Deacs. I believe that Zack never came close to defeating someone like that. In fact, he was taken out of the game and Schneider was inserted to lob a long ball against Navy. With regard to Asack's HS credentials, I'm also aware that "The U" wanted him...as a safety...Lewis was rated a top 10 dual QB threat the year after. Your response doesn't really answer the question. Lots of All-American QB's developed out of running systems (Mike Dunn was a top 5 QB in the country at Hampton, VA, and he was a terrific QB for Duke, but came from a "running" system).
    I'm not sure what the pecking order for other schools wanting either Lewis or Asack, but no matter.

    Hey, let's face it. Neither of these QB's are worldbeaters. But, you've got a coach that knows QB's. He's coached 'em for a long time. My take on yesterday's game is this: Asack came in and didn't do anything appreciably better than Lewis. If I recall, he didn't get a first down on either series (feel free to correct me, but we just weren't doing anything). I'm not sure what happened since that Clemson game, but Asack hasn't thrown a ball downfield more than 10 yards. There must be a reason for it. So, if I'm a defensive coordinator, and I know that Asack is apt to run the ball around the end or up the middle, then it just makes Duke easier to defend.

    The point stands that it doesn't make sense to burn a redshirt on a QB like Renfree. Not behind that O line. I've seen the tape, and he's talented as a runner and thrower.

    With regard to yesterday, Cut said that Lewis (who was 15-28) could've done a better job, but he also said that Riley and Kelly missed too many days of practice to be effective. I certainly agree that Lewis needs more consistency on the long ball---it frustrates me that he hasn't hit Riley or any other wideout on the deep ball like he did last year--but we know that he's a proven commodity in that area. Asack hasn't proven it, or he would be starting.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    I am not saying its a shoe in that Zack replaces Thad as the starter, while I think he is the better qb against the big boys. I think it is equally possible that Renfree comes in.
    Based on what? Gut feeling?

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    I would refer you to my prior post in which I explained why our o-line was so beaten up during the game. It relates to Lewis' inability to see and hit open receivers quickly over the middle, which would pull defenders off the line, and opens up the running game. Short, quick passes up the middle, and the o-line looks a lot better. You disagree with this?
    I absolutely disagree with this. Duke tried short passes early, and a number were dropped. In fact, Lewis was hitting on short passes fairly well early. Problem was, from the first carry of the game, Duke couldn't run on Tech. And Tech didn't even have to stack the box. Tech stopped the run without eight in the box, which enabled them to take away the short passing game, regardless of who was in at QB, Lewis, Asack or Brian Zoubek. Tech never had to stack the line (you claim Duke could've got them off the line with short passing) because the Jackets didn't need to against Duke's O-line. And maybe you missed the constant pressure Tech applied rushing four guys against Duke's five. There was nothing open underneath over the middle. Nothing. You can keep using this height thing all you want. It's a red herring. Everyone who has read your posts can see you've had it out for Lewis since the beginning, that you have a soft spot for Asack, and then none of this analysis is based on logic. Shocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    In Asack's one series, one pass, before the end of the game, he was back in the pocket, got rid of the ball in about 2 seconds over the middle to try to hit Eron Riley. And, guess what, our o-line looked fine and GT was no where near, not even close to Asack.
    Uh, Asack threw one pass that was nowhere near anyone and was much more a panicked throw than some sort of great, quick release.

    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    The play I referred to was Zack's series in the 2nd quarter. On his one pass play Tech was rushing 6. When he got in at the end of the game again, maybe there were rushing 3, I do not recall. And, I would suggest to you that getting the ball quickly over the middle is crucial to relieving pressure from the pass rush, and Zack and Thad are not equal in this ability. Particularly against taller teams, Zack's ability is superior.
    Now you're just making stuff up. Asack didn't enter the game until the fourth quarter. You can look it up instead of lying.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    I absolutely disagree with this. Duke tried short passes early, and a number were dropped. In fact, Lewis was hitting on short passes fairly well early. Problem was, from the first carry of the game, Duke couldn't run on Tech. And Tech didn't even have to stack the box. Tech stopped the run without eight in the box, which enabled them to take away the short passing game, regardless of who was in at QB, Lewis, Asack or Brian Zoubek. Tech never had to stack the line (you claim Duke could've got them off the line with short passing) because the Jackets didn't need to against Duke's O-line. And maybe you missed the constant pressure Tech applied rushing four guys against Duke's five. There was nothing open underneath over the middle. Nothing. You can keep using this height thing all you want. It's a red herring. Everyone who has read your posts can see you've had it out for Lewis since the beginning, that you have a soft spot for Asack, and then none of this analysis is based on logic. Shocking.


    Uh, Asack threw one pass that was nowhere near anyone and was much more a panicked throw than some sort of great, quick release.



    Now you're just making stuff up. Asack didn't enter the game until the fourth quarter. You can look it up instead of lying.
    Yep, it was the very first Duke series of the 4th quarter in which Asack threw the pass, when the o-line held quite well. Then after 3 more Lewis series, at the very end of the game, Asack came in and ran a couple of running plays and time ran out as Duke got a first down.

    Lewis was 3 and done 6 times during the game. Asack once.

    "There was nothing open underneath over the middle. Nothing. You can keep using this height thing all you want. It's a red herring."

    I disagree here. And, this is where the height issue comes into play. Lewis cant get it to a tight end on a 4 yard route straight up the middle as easily as Asack. When you can hit these, linebackers get pushed back, which opens up the running game. You might say we had to hold the tight end for pass blocking. These routes take a second and a half, two seconds. You have to be able to see the tight end early. The Steelers do this well, with Ben R. at 6'5", 2 tight ends at 6'5" and one at 6'7".

    You will find, I think, that we wont have the same criticisms of our offensive line, that there will be more short passes right up the middle, if either Asack or Renfree becomes our starting qb this season.

  8. #148
    I do think one of the things Duke needs to improve on is the running game. We were pretty dreadful last year and even if we had Boyette now, I'm not sure how much better we'd be. Everyone is going to play the pass against us so the sooner we can establish a consistent run threat, the better chance we'll have to win some of these games.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    Yep, it was the very first Duke series of the 4th quarter in which Asack threw the pass, when the o-line held quite well. Then after 3 more Lewis series, at the very end of the game, Asack came in and ran a couple of running plays and time ran out as Duke got a first down.

    Lewis was 3 and done 6 times during the game. Asack once.

    "There was nothing open underneath over the middle. Nothing. You can keep using this height thing all you want. It's a red herring."

    I disagree here. And, this is where the height issue comes into play. Lewis cant get it to a tight end on a 4 yard route straight up the middle as easily as Asack. When you can hit these, linebackers get pushed back, which opens up the running game. You might say we had to hold the tight end for pass blocking. These routes take a second and a half, two seconds. You have to be able to see the tight end early. The Steelers do this well, with Ben R. at 6'5", 2 tight ends at 6'5" and one at 6'7".

    You will find, I think, that we wont have the same criticisms of our offensive line, that there will be more short passes right up the middle, if either Asack or Renfree becomes our starting qb this season.
    Check out the Big 12 and see if quarterbacks need to be 6'5". I will admit that Thad has struggled much more this year than I expected. Even winning, he has not looked comfortable. Way too rushed. I really don't think his height has anything to do with it. That said, I am pretty comfortable in Coach Cut's decision making.

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    Funny, I would say the exact opposite thing -- to look beyond the offensive line in pinpointing the offense's problems yesterday reveals little football knowledge. Here's a little hint: When you have nowhere to run and no time to pass, the other team is domnating up front. And this shouldn't have come as a surprise, as Georgia Tech has a terrrific defensive line. No offense can function without holding its own at the line of scrimmage. Duke certainly doesn't have that luxury. Now, there were a few occasions where Duke had enough time to make a play. The receivers didn't help by dropping at least five passes. And Lewis made a few bad throws as well, including missing Riley on what should have been a touchdown.

    But people who don't know much about football routinely call for the backup quarterback. In fact, that's generally why people who complain about similar things in sports (or life in general) are said to be suffering from "backup QB syndrome." You've got it bad, my friend.

    Lewis has been a good QB for Duke and will continue to produce. The team needs to grow around him and in two years, I'm sure Renfree will be able to jump in and play well. But David Cutcliffe has led the worst team in D-I to a 3-2 record. Questioning him -- especially on the subject of quarterbacks, where he has forgotten more than either of us has ever known -- at this point is beyond silly. Please give up this line of argument. You're not convincing anyone and just undermining your own credibility.
    Thank you, Jumbo! You saved me from saying that in a much more negative fashion. The o-line just couldn't do it this week. Here's to some improvement for Miami and beyond.

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by formerdukeathlete View Post
    We have to have qb play at the kind of level displayed by Jaybo Shaw, and no matter how folks point to this game or that, the pattern of the collapse of qb play in big games, against quality d-1a opponents, continues. Renfree's play will exceed Shaw's level. The future is now. 27 to 0 is absolutely pathetic, and most of the fault lies with qb play and coaching. Time to shake things up, imo.
    FDA: You have a lot of great insights about football--Duke football in particular. But criticizing Cut based on his use of quarterbacks through 5 games of the season (the most successful 5 games Duke has had in years) hurts your credibility.
    "Just like you man. I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase." Omar Little

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Meeting with Marie Laveau
    Quote Originally Posted by RepoMan View Post
    FDA: You have a lot of great insights about football--Duke football in particular. But criticizing Cut based on his use of quarterbacks through 5 games of the season (the most successful 5 games Duke has had in years) hurts your credibility.
    As I've read various comments made by different people participating in this conversation, I've wondered "If Coach Cutcliffe isn't good enough, who is?"

    Over the years I've noticed that sometimes folks react to the lack of success (business, children, marriage) by turning against the very thing they say the support or love. We're rebuilding a fine, old tradition which was left to slide too far, too long. In the big picture, the direction for the development of the football program is changing for the better. Let's keep our eyes on the prize, not the stumbles along the way.

    Go Duke!

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    The future isn't now it's the future, the next two-four years. Cut will get us there. We just need more and better horses in the race. Our guys are tops when it comes to character. Wins will come with more ACC caliber players. This will take a little time imo. So far I love what I see from our team. Fewer miscues more intensity, ect. Cut is a great coach imo.

  14. #154
    ^ David Glenn made that same comment today, and he may have been kind in saying that Duke has about a half dozen stars (he named Riley, Rey, and Tauliili before continuing with his point) on their team with a number of solid players.

    As I recall, Cut has said that he's aiming for 5-6 studs per year with a number of solid players--at least that was his take on recruiting Duke in the initial stages.

    What needs to happen is the continued development of unsung guys like Lederman, (Brian) Moore, Bondeson, etc. along with some good health to guys like Marcus Lind and Brandon King, who Duke desperately misses as a blocker this year.

  15. #155
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Run the Football

    Unless we run the football effectively, we will be in trouble with most of the teams left on our schedule. The offensive line, full back and wide receivers need to do a better job of blocking. The receivers have dropped several balls and that can't be blamed on Lewis. Coach Cut knows a QB when he sees one and I trust his judgement. Support the team..Go Duke.

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    I haven't read the other posts but I was at the GT game Saturday and I'll give my thoughts:

    - Duke's defense easily played well enough for Duke to be competitive in this game. They tackled better than any Duke team I've ever seen and really kept a potent GT offense in check for 2.5 quarters. Hell, the game was 3-0 at halftime. And when your defense spends 39 of 60 minutes on the field in Atlanta in early October (easily in the 80s), the final score isn't a product of the defense.

    - The most annoying part of the game was that Duke had forced GT into a three-and-out to start the 2nd half until that "roughing the passer" penalty gave GT new life. Given the way the offense had performed up until that point, that was the beginning of the end for Duke.

    - It's easy to overreact to the final score but it wasn't as bad as it looked (from a defensive perspective) and it's important to remember that this was Duke's first road game of the year. They'll get better on the road, people. No need to panic.

    - As bad as the offense was, a lot of their mistakes are correctable, IMO. Missed blocking assignments and dropped passes killed many of our drives (especially in the 1st half) but they're things that can be fixed.

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