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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    I have no opinions about litigiousness or first responders.

    What I don't understand is why we never have enough water on hand. Games with this kind of punishing, hellish, 9th circle heat and humidity are par for the course in the SEC, especially in Gainesville and Baton Rouge, but also Starkville, Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Athens, Columbia. I've been to games down there and they seem to be able to provide water for 3 times as many people as you have at a well-attended Duke game.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
    Allen,

    If 12 people had already attempted to find the EMS and they did not arrive quickly, one would assume that they were busy and caring for another patient. It is certainly possible that they were not responding properly, but based on the comments of BigDuke6 that does not appear to be the case.
    I have no doubt they were working incredibly hard. I have no problems with the ones who were there. My concern is whether there were enough - the ones who were there were working their butts off - that is obvious.

    That is not what I meant by my response. It was directed to your assumption that CathyCa could/should have done more. Since she was there, she knew that enough people had already sought help, and that her doing so was not necessary. You didn't need to tell her what she could/should have done instead of taking pictures. Again, since she was right there, she was aware of how she could or could not be helpful.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    It seems to me that there are two things Duke can do to mitigate the water problem, one short-term, one long-term. The first is to relax regulations on bringing in water. I can see no logical reason why fans shouldn't be able to bring in coolers with unopened bottles of water. If music ampitheaters allow it, so can Duke.

    Long-term, when the much ballyhooed Wade revamp comes about, Duke needs to put water fountains in place, lots of them, cooled if possible, if not that, at least in the shade.

    No one should have to wait in line to pay three dollars for a bottle of water in order to keep from having heat stroke.

    While we're on the subject, some water fountains in Cameron wouldn't hurt either. Place is a sauna.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh

    water, WW

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    It seems to me that there are two things Duke can do to mitigate the water problem, one short-term, one long-term. The first is to relax regulations on bringing in water. I can see no logical reason why fans shouldn't be able to bring in coolers with unopened bottles of water. If music ampitheaters allow it, so can Duke.

    Long-term, when the much ballyhooed Wade revamp comes about, Duke needs to put water fountains in place, lots of them, cooled if possible, if not that, at least in the shade.

    No one should have to wait in line to pay three dollars for a bottle of water in order to keep from having heat stroke.

    While we're on the subject, some water fountains in Cameron wouldn't hurt either. Place is a sauna.

    Have you spoken with Dr. White about your ideas? A serious question/suggestion, not meant to be smart-alecky at all.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Goldsboro, NC
    As the husband of a personal injury attorney, I truly hope and pray that none of you ever get screwed by the insurance companies. Additionally, I truly hope that a doctor never seriously screws up in your treatment. On top of all of that, I truly hope that non one ever produces a product that ultimately produces harmful physical results for you. Because if they do, without a lawyer, you're just screwed.

    The point of all of this is if you were at the game, you knew how freaking hot it was. And you knew how few and far between help was. My son, who just turned 9 at the game, could only talk about the people he saw pass out from the heat, instead of a victory against a pretty decent team. Even when we went to buy more water, and had to buy it for $3.50 out of the tap in a Duke cup because "bottled" water was gone, we simply did it because it was what we had to do. When we went up, people were crowded in the shade (seriously - I saw a shoving match break out over the shade), and kids were sticking their heads under the water in the bathrooms (no - not swirlies).

    Long story short - back off of the attorney criticisms, unless you promise to never use one. Quit the hypocrisy.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte
    Most miserable game (weather wise) I've ever been to. It was on the brink of being a disaster, with so many people having a very hard time with the weather. Not only did the water run out, but it ran out in the 1st quarter. At least they had ice and tap water, but I agree with the sentiment here it shouldn't have cost $3.50 for a cup. The day could have easily turned out differently, and not in a good way.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by CLT Devil View Post
    Most miserable game (weather wise) I've ever been to.
    You obviously haven't been to enough games then.

    Someone commented that Saturday was a once in a decade hot. That is ridiculous. This is North Carolina folks, it is hot in September. Often. Most Septembers we have had games with similar hot conditions. Look back on threads last September (and the year before last) complaining that we should be playing night games. The last time I was in WW under such conditions (or hotter) was in August for the open scrimmage. OK, that's August, but only 5 weeks ago. I sat with A J Carr and Al Fetherston, and yeah, it was very hot (mid 90's), very humid and very sunny, but if I hadn't have been in WW I would have been on the golf course, walking pulling a pull cart, just like I did today, and hey, it was just as hot today as yesterday, although there was a consistent light breeze, which was very nice.

    Personally, I would rather be sitting in Saturday's heat than in cold, wet conditions in late November. But I'll be there either way, and prepare for it the best I can. I did notice one nearby fan who went out to his car at halftime and returned with an umbrella to shade himself from the sun. It was the same umbrella he used 2 weeks ago (and he let me share) during the rain and lightning delay.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  8. #68
    Allen,

    Did you read BigDuke6's post? He states that there were four times the usual number of EMS/first aid people at the game. I am saying that even with planning, it is sometimes impossible to prepare adequately when a confluence of factors occur resulting in an unexpected, unpredictable number of medical events. As for Cathy's original post, I responded because I felt she made an assertion based on conclusions she made which may well be inaccurate. I also did not tell Cathy what she could or could not do ( I stated she is free to take whatever pictures she wanted ), I said that is not what would have occured to me.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Considering cash can only be awarded by a jury of YOUR peers, it's hard to justify calling it a "cash grab". As unscrupulous as attorneys may come, they're not the ones handing out punitive awards.
    Perhaps its an unfair indictment of certain attorneys (and I don't hate attorneys so lets not go down that road) but I do hate how the civil court system is being exploited to profit from irresponsibility. I'm also not attacking the right to litigate because thats often the only option someone has to redress grievous errors and mishaps caused by corporations and other institutions that are loathe to admit any wrongdoing.

    However, I think there are opportunistic clients looking to profit from being a "victim" (and we as Duke fans know this better than anyone) so if I read someone's response to a problem is to film or photograph it in case those involved want to sue, well I'm a bit wary of their intent (and I'm not trying to insinuate that CathyCA was looking to profit from heat stroke or dehydration). Its probably a result of the media's representation of class action lawsuits and that people want to take less and less responsibility for their actions lately that has created this bias, but there it is nonetheless.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
    Allen,

    Did you read BigDuke6's post? He states that there were four times the usual number of EMS/first aid people at the game. I am saying that even with planning, it is sometimes impossible to prepare adequately when a confluence of factors occur resulting in an unexpected, unpredictable number of medical events. As for Cathy's original post, I responded because I felt she made an assertion based on conclusions she made which may well be inaccurate. I also did not tell Cathy what she could or could not do ( I stated she is free to take whatever pictures she wanted ), I said that is not what would have occured to me.
    I thought that given that she was there, and you were not, your tone toward CathyCC was negative, without need. It might not have occurred to you to take pictures - but you suggested that she should have sought help, when in fact multiple people had already done so, making no need for her to do so as well. She was concerned about a fellow Duke fan, and you chose to criticize her actions, even though you had no knowledge of the particular situation.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by RelativeWays View Post
    Perhaps its an unfair indictment of certain attorneys (and I don't hate attorneys so lets not go down that road) but I do hate how the civil court system is being exploited to profit from irresponsibility. I'm also not attacking the right to litigate because thats often the only option someone has to redress grievous errors and mishaps caused by corporations and other institutions that are loathe to admit any wrongdoing.

    However, I think there are opportunistic clients looking to profit from being a "victim" (and we as Duke fans know this better than anyone) so if I read someone's response to a problem is to film or photograph it in case those involved want to sue, well I'm a bit wary of their intent (and I'm not trying to insinuate that CathyCA was looking to profit from heat stroke or dehydration). Its probably a result of the media's representation of class action lawsuits and that people want to take less and less responsibility for their actions lately that has created this bias, but there it is nonetheless.
    FWIW, I was not taking pictures to use for my own profit. It was simply to provide some help to the man in the form of documentation, should he ever need it.

    Now, I'm going to get back to my work this morning, representing a physician.

  12. #72
    Allen,

    I think we are getting away from the point of your thread. I am not saying Cathy is a bad person for doing what she chose to do, and I have said, again, that she is free to photograph whatever she chooses. Everyone responds to situations differently, and I am saying her repsonse would not be mine. She did make statmentsthat were wrong/probably wrong and I was reacting to those comments.

    You did not reply to my comment about BigDuke6 and the number of EMS people at the game.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte
    Ozzie,
    I've been to many games, college and pro and this was the most miserable. Contrast Sat to the Duke v ND game in South Bend last year and I'll take the cold anyday. At ND it was near freezing, rainy, we were losing badly and I still felt like I could get warm enough to enjoy. Saturday there was no escape from the heat.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by CathyCA View Post
    FWIW, I was not taking pictures to use for my own profit. It was simply to provide some help to the man in the form of documentation, should he ever need it.

    Now, I'm going to get back to my work this morning, representing a physician.
    That why I said I'm not trying to insinuate that you were looking to profit from the situation. I was more explaining the reasoning behind my reaction, and I admit its a bias.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
    Allen,

    I think we are getting away from the point of your thread. I am not saying Cathy is a bad person for doing what she chose to do, and I have said, again, that she is free to photograph whatever she chooses. Everyone responds to situations differently, and I am saying her repsonse would not be mine. She did make statmentsthat were wrong/probably wrong and I was reacting to those comments.

    You did not reply to my comment about BigDuke6 and the number of EMS people at the game.
    I have seen very little criticism of the crews that were there, but a lot of criticism of the lack of planning on the part of the university (Running out of water? Charging $3.50 for tap water when there had been, 20+ counts of heat exhaustion?) There is a big difference between being critical of the planning process and being critical of the personnel who were there and working hard, but you seem to be intent on taking one as equivilant to the other.

    You did in fact criticze another poster, saying that if you been there you would have not taken pictures but instead would have gone and gotten help. But you were not there, so you have no way of knowing that the reason she did not go and get help was because multiple people had already done so.

    If there were not enough EMS folks there to cover the need, then there were not enough folks there to cover the need. That is pretty obvious. However, pointing that out is not criticism of the ones that were there. I understand that in planning for events folks can get things wrong. But I can tell you that had the combination of the number of calls and the fact theat there were not enough crews resulted in a death the criticism of the event planners (not the crews that were working) would be a lot more intense than it is now.

    And I can understand that there might be a policy that says a crew must remain on the field. Serious injuries can take place on a football field that require immediate attention. But in fact there was a crew unoccupied on the field during the time that the event I witnessed took place. Had the gentleman in front of me been having a heart attack, instead of sufferring from heat exhaustion, would that have been a good enough reason for the crew to leave the field, even if it meant the game being halted for an official time out? I hope so.

    Folks started and contributed to this thread becasue they were worried about their fellow fans, not because they wanted to criticize the EMS crews who were there and working hard. No poster should have to apologize for being concerned about fans who they were seeing pass out right in front of them. Please understand why folks are concerned, and that is was/is their concern that drives their posting. Your insistance on reading this as a criticism of the EMS crews is wrong. We know they were working hard and were overwhelmed, we simply think the universwity was caught in a case of poor planning.

  16. #76
    Allen,

    I think you should reread Cathy's original post. It contains statements that are incorrect/likely incorrect, and it contains criticism of the EMS, Durham PD, and Duke.

    As for what I would have done, I have been in that situation many times, personally and professionally, and I know what I have done, and it never involved photographic documentation. If someone takes that to be criticism, I am sorry.

    You repeat the criticism that there was poor planning without knowing what plans were in place. How do you know that the planning was poor? There may have been poor planning, but neither you nor I know that without knowing the facts. One man's unfortunate experience is not evidence of poor preparadeness.

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Rougemont, NC
    I completely agree but something even more annoying is the obnoxious blaring and over use of the PA system. Hopefully enough fans will complain to limit its use during the game or at least cutting down the volume.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie is still king View Post
    It was absolutely pitiful and a disgrace. Navy fans were yelling about the lack of medical attention and the policeman (at least 4) were astounded that no medical personnel showed up to help.
    My wife (a Duke hemotology-oncology nurse, and 5 months pregnant, to boot) hurdled 3-4 rows and was at Dr. Mabry's side, checking his pulse and respiration within about 10 seconds of his collapse. (We were in Row Y.) Once she determined that he was breathing and had a steady pulse, she stepped back, as he needed circulating air, shade and water, not twenty people huddled over him, raising the ambient temp even more.

    She and I both believe that the camera platform location, which bottlenecked (north) and blocked (south) foot traffic between the stands and Finch-Yeager contributed to the delay in EMS response. They were forced to cut through the Finch-Yeager tunnel, which was full of people trying to find shade.

    BTW, the home side concession shacks were out of bottled water at the beginning of halftime. Furthermore, they wouldn't even sell cups of ice without charging the $3.50 they normally charge for a soda.

    Quote Originally Posted by CathyCA View Post
    Yup. CathyCA, Ozzie, and Allenmurray were all sitting in section 27 when the gentleman suffered the episode. After the second half, Devildeac came down and sat with Ozzie for a while.

    365Duke, here's the system for recognizing us: Go to the OTB. Click on the thread entitled "Brunchgate." I posted a picture of the DBR group taken at our tailgate prior to Saturday's game.
    Not only were we sitting near you in Sec 27, we were tailgating with friends (and friends of friends) directly adjactent to you in the B-3 lot. LOL. (And we found out, that you can, in fact, fit six adults in a fully-loaded 4Runner.)

    Whodathunkit?

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkD View Post
    BTW, the home side concession shacks were out of bottled water at the beginning of halftime. Furthermore, they wouldn't even sell cups of ice without charging the $3.50 they normally charge for a soda.
    If that is the case then the people operating the concession stand were violating their instructions. My son-in-law runs one of the stands, and he told me that they were instructed to provide courtesy cups of ice and access to tap water without charge. As for bottled water, they ran out right after half time, but received an additional delivery of several cases shortly after. They returned about 20 bottles when they closed the stand.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
    BigDuke6, Again, thank you for doing your best in a bad environment.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
    The immediate response by some is " lawsuit " even to the point of camera documentation to support the claim of the "victim".
    Doctorhook,

    Your response seems to be a pretty strong overreaction. All Cathy was doing was trying to help. She couldn't supply medical care and did the only thing she could do to help. She documented the situation.

    From the posts of others who saw the incident as it occurred she was not the only one surprised and disappointed by what was going on.

    Poor medical attention is a fact of life. Sometimes it is caused by a legitimate reason such as lack of resources. Other times that is unfortunately not the cause.

    Cathy has clarified that she did not know what was to blame for the lack of official medical attention being provided by the University and was, like others, shocked and appalled by what she observed. She was being a good samaritan in the best way she could by recording the situation.

    Cathy didn't know the guy who passed out. Cathy likes Duke -- she was sitting in the Iron Duke section for goodness sake. She had nothing to gain from the situation except the possibility of being drawn into some protracted lawsuit as a witness to the truth.

    I don't know Cathy but for my nickel she was being a good citizen and doesn't deserve the derision you have aimed in her direction. I certainly wouldn't want sentiments like yours to discourage her or others like her from doing what they can in a bad situation to be of help.

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