A Duke Education and Duke Degree

[NYC Duke Fan]

One of the points made in Duke recruiting is the fact that they will be getting an education at one of the finast Universities in the country with a degree to match.

I know that Boozer and Jason Williams graduated in 3 years, but what about the other players who left early. Does anyone think that Deng, Maggette, or Avery or that matter McRoberts really cared about the Duke education ? Did Brand or Randolph every finish to get a degree , ( I hope that they did) ? It seems to me that the really talented player, the one that probably will not stay for the duration, really doesn't care about a ,"Duke Education or Duke Degree". I could be mistaken but I don't think so.

[Exiled_Devil]

I am pretty sure both Shav and Elton got their degrees.

I am almost as certain that Magette and Avery did not.

I have no idea about Deng.

Exiled

[Duvall]

One of the points made in Duke recruiting is the fact that they will be getting an education at one of the finast Universities in the country with a degree to match.

I know that Boozer and Jason Williams graduated in 3 years, but what about the other players who left early. Does anyone think that Deng, Maggette, or Avery or that matter McRoberts really cared about the Duke education ? Did Brand or Randolph every finish to get a degree , ( I hope that they did) ? It seems to me that the really talented player, the one that probably will not stay for the duration, really doesn't care about a ,"Duke Education or Duke Degree". I could be mistaken but I don't think so.

A Duke degree has great value. It does not have limitless value. A guaranteed multi-million dollar contract is a hard thing to risk.

Besides, these are all young men, who should have the time and resources to pursue any education they wish after their playing days are done.

[Bluedog]

Someone who has a class with McRoberts told me he hasn't seen him in class the entire semester.

[kexman]

I think a year or two at duke (or most colleges) has some educational and life value even if you don't obtain the actual degree. Duke basketball recruits are unique individuals and do not necessarily need a piece of paper. However, if they put forth some effort in their classes they will benefit from a year or two of traditional classes and being around their classmates in the dorms. Educational value does not have to be about the piece of paper on the wall, although you could make the argument that 2 more years of being at college would have added value (not just the degree).

As a total aside I think degrees are overrated...it is what you make of the experience and the opportunities. Of course I'm a professional student so the more pieces of paper I can hang on the wall the better, but it was the process to achieve the paper that was important not the actual paper.

[throatybeard]

As a total aside I think degrees are overrated...it is what you make of the experience and the opportunities. Of course I'm a professional student so the more pieces of paper I can hang on the wall the better, but it was the process to achieve the paper that was important not the actual paper.

Yes, degrees are overrated, especially the BA/BS. This isn't 1940, when just going to a top-XX college and making some Cs gets you a job at WASP-corp, LLC. (Or in 2007, B+s). Access to Ugrad is much broader than it was even 25 years ago, and thus there's been devaluation in the financial value, even in Ugrad degrees from the top places. Something I've never understood is why Duke fans have to talk constantly about how elite and sooper-awesome the school is. Seems kind of insecure.

Kexman is on target in that it's about the social and intellectual experience.

[tux]

I agree with the overall point, but I don't really think most Duke fans talk constantly about how great Duke is --- at least, that was never my experience with my fellow classmates. As a North Carolinian, I find UNC fans much more vocal about their alma mater. I always get the feeling that they think that I think that Duke is far superior to UNC; so, they're responding to some imaginary conversation. While I have much love for Duke, I tend to try and play down the whole I-went-to-Duke fishing for the oh-you-must-be-smart reply... Maybe I'm overly self-conscious about it... (But I bet most Duke folks in the triangle find themselves in this dynamic.)

[Virginian]

I've never heard Duke grads -- and I of course know many of them -- talk up Duke as being elite or super. Certainly they/we don't mention our Duke connection as often and early in a conversation as you hear from Harvard and Princeton grads.

And where you get your degree DOES matter. A degree from a top college opens doors otherwise closed to grads. And alumni and professor contacts can be very instrumental in getting a job or a place in a good grad school. When I'm hiring and look at resumes I'm going to look a lot more closely at one with a Duke or Ivy League or other top-school degree on it.

Just my two cents.

[wiscodevil]

Someone who has a class with McRoberts told me he hasn't seen him in class the entire semester.

does the ncaa penalize a school (in terms of graduation rates and academic standing) more if a student doesn't finish up the current semester vs if they finish the semester and then leave?

if so, where does duke/mcroberts stand in this regard?

[throatybeard]

I've never heard Duke grads -- and I of course know many of them -- talk up Duke as being elite or super. Certainly they/we don't mention our Duke connection as often and early in a conversation as you hear from Harvard and Princeton grads.

In person, not as much. On the internet, ad nauseam.

[Duvall]

In person, not as much. On the internet, ad nauseam.

Might be because the Internet treats a Duke degree as slightly worse than a nasty case of VD, while actual human beings tend not to care much.

[Classof06]

As a total aside I think degrees are overrated...it is what you make of the experience and the opportunities. Of course I'm a professional student so the more pieces of paper I can hang on the wall the better, but it was the process to achieve the paper that was important not the actual paper.

I have some friends that never received a college degree that would probably disagree with that. To me, my diploma encompasses my whole collegiate experience. And it definitely is all about what you make of the experience and the opportunities, but the actual diploma (Duke or not) is what enables one to make the most out of those opportunities. A Bachelor's degree is certainly not the end all/be all of education, but for most people it is a foundational stepping stone to get where they need/want to be. And where you go to college is certainly not as important as it once was, but I can't imagine parents spending $45K a year to send their kids to Duke if it didn't help. I am a Duke grad, so call me biased, but I think I'm living proof when I compare myself with friends who didn't go to school at all or went to a school not as highly regarded as Duke. Like tux, I also try to play down the whole I-went-to-Duke thing and usually only mention my alma mater when asked or when basketball comes up, so I don't agree with throatybeard about it being an insecure thing. I think it's those who constantly hate on Duke who may be insecure...

[dukeENG2003]

as a fellow Duke alum though, I can tell you very clearly that there are those who just coasted through Duke and didn't work worth a crap. As you said, its all about what you make of it, I feel I made a great deal out of it, but there are others who wasted their opoprtunities there, and we ended up with very similar pieces of paper at the end of all of it. The diploma may SYMBOLIZE the whole experience, but it is the EDUCATION that is the foundation for success, not the piece of paper, and getting the piece of paper doesn't necessarily require that much education to take place, as my freshman roomate is evidence of (he DID graduate, eventually. . .).

[Uncle Drew]

As a life long Duke fan who didn't have the grades, yet alone the SAT's to get into Duke I must say I don't know how anyone goes to class, makes passing grades and graduates at Duke. A degree from Duke carries a lot of weight, in some peoples eyes. But right or wrong, a checking account with a couple of million dollars in our society carries more weight than any degree could. Frankly the idea of trying to play a sport on top of trying to pass a class in advanced thermocalculoptic prismascopular diversification 101 is beyond anything I am capable of.

[Richard Berg]

I have some friends that never received a college degree that would probably disagree with that. To me, my diploma encompasses my whole collegiate experience. And it definitely is all about what you make of the experience and the opportunities, but the actual diploma (Duke or not) is what enables one to make the most out of those opportunities.

He didn't say the diploma was valueless. He said it was overrated.

Look, we don't have to argue in the abstract. Diplomas mean different things to different people, but it's not hard to put some rough numbers on the economic value. The Duke administration prices it at ~$150K. By definition, everyone who consumes at that price thinks it's worth at least that much. In fact, most economists would say it's worth far more than the price, which is why college education is heavily subsidized throughout the public & private sectors. You can estimate the value by comparing the lifetime salaries of graduates & non-graduates, subtracting the opportunity cost (4 years out of the workforce), and applying a discount rate. The estimates I've seen put the net present value at $300-400K; for a Duke degree, I wouldn't be surprised if it were closer to $1M.

(That's doesn't imply a Duke degree is twice as valuable as an average degree because the sampled populations are very different. That is, Duke-caliber students will have above-average success regardless of whether they actually attend Duke.)

NBA lottery contracts have a NPV roughly an order of magnitude larger still. Even if our estimates are off, this is an easy comparison.

[Clipsfan]

Someone who has a class with McRoberts told me he hasn't seen him in class the entire semester.

I hope that is not true, as Duke will receive a penalty if Josh leaves in poor academic standing. However, I won't be surprised if it is true, given that he's known that he would leave at the end of this season for the past year.

[Clipsfan]

I agree with the overall point, but I don't really think most Duke fans talk constantly about how great Duke is --- at least, that was never my experience with my fellow classmates. As a North Carolinian, I find UNC fans much more vocal about their alma mater. I always get the feeling that they think that I think that Duke is far superior to UNC; so, they're responding to some imaginary conversation. While I have much love for Duke, I tend to try and play down the whole I-went-to-Duke fishing for the oh-you-must-be-smart reply... Maybe I'm overly self-conscious about it... (But I bet most Duke folks in the triangle find themselves in this dynamic.)

Easy solution...move to the West coast where no one thinks of Duke as an academic school

[Uncle Drew]

When I meet a Duke grad / student I'm not intimidated in the least. But I must say there is an instant amount of respect that I don't normally give out. They say respect is earned and I am the first to let others earn my respect for them. But in the case of a Duke alum the respect is there automatically unless they show me they are a complete idiot.

[sagegrouse]

After my time at Duke, I went to grad school at Rice. I got to know a lot of undergraduates. Being in a big city (Houston), there were quite a few that commuted to school and didn't have a dorm (or residential college)experience. It seemed to me that over three or four years, the commuting students changed and grew intellectually and socially much less than those who lived on campus, even though they had the same classroom and library experience.

The interesting thing about that observation -- which I really believe -- is that if you video-recorded all the dorm interactions among students, you would have a hard time believing that anyone got anything positive out of it. I believe that with exposure to so many people, students really do learn from the best experiences not from the most mindless ones.

WRT to Duke athletics and basketball in particular, I think there are some benefits. Coach K makes sure that almost every player has beaucoup opportunities for public speaking in order to gain confidence in communications in difficult settings. I suspect there is a lot of "adult" interaction with the Asst Coaches and the tutors. And I suspect, although I do not know, that there is a good deal of interaction with the warp and woof of the student body as a whole. I would appreciate any comments.

The other thing I would say is that making it at Duke in basketball and doing decntly well in academics requires someone with maturity, good work habits, and a high degree of personal organization. In that sense it is hard to separate the input (athletes attributes) from the output (finished student).

Don't underestimate the value of the Duke experience, including academics. Or, if you have any doubts, check with Bilas, Alarie, Dawkins, D, Henderson, Ferry, and Amaker, who were at Duke 20 years ago.

Sage Grouse

[Atlanta Duke]

Someone who has a class with McRoberts told me he hasn't seen him in class the entire semester.

Reinforces what I have heard about the coaching staff saying that McRoberts hated the going to class part of college and was gone after this season - I doubt he is catching up now for finals

If that and the story that Roy benched Lawson because he quit going to class is true, then with regard to our respective commitment to academic standards for athletes I suppose we should not be tossing any rocks down 15-501 at the moment (unless someone may be able to enlighten me that McRoberts was benched for an off-court issue for the first UNC game).