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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Thad Jaracz and Tommy Kron were 6'5". Riley and Larry Conley were listed at 6'3". Reserve Cliff Berger was 6'8". It should be noted that Jaracz was a big 6'5", 225-230 or so.

    For TW, Lattin was a bulky 6'7", Nevil Shed a rail-thin 6'8" and Flournoy a jumping-jack 6'5".

    But Kentucky outrebounded a much bigger Duke team 33-29 and was outrebounded by TW 35-33. They didn't lose that game on the boards.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Following my own post again. Anyway, the 1962 Cincy team started four African Americans, Paul Hogue, George Wilson, Tom Thacker, and Tony Yates, along with Ron Bonham. Wilson, incidentially, was a teammate of Jeff Mullins (and Larry Brown) on the 1964 U.S. Olympic team.

    There is some feeling that TW winning the NCAA title with five black starters was significantly different than Cincy and Loyola winning with four, because teams supposedly needed a white starter to provide the intellectual boost obviously lacking in black players. I'm not sure I give this theory much credibility. By 1966 African American NBA players like Oscar Robertson, Guy Rodgers, K.C. Jones, and Al Attles were heady point guards and Walt Hazzard had QB'd UCLA to the an undefeated season in 1964. Anyone who thought that talented black players needed a cerebral white player to show them the way was probably so far in denial that they were still waiting for Jeff Davis to come back. But the theory is still out there.

    By the way, I can't let the discussion of the '66 TW team go any further without mentioning one of their reserves, Willie Cager. My all-time favorite basketball name.

    Note that CCNY started three black players in 1950, when they won the NCAA title. They defeated North Carolina State in the semifinals 78-73, without a hint of racial sub-theme. State had just defeated Bob Cousy and Holy Cross in a game in which Cousy shot 11-38. No, that's not a typo. But the defensive wiz who helped shut down Cousy sprained his ankle against CCNY and played sparingly. Guy by the name of Bubas, who later became the first man to both play in and coach in the Final Four. Small world after all.

  3. #23
    HAAAA ! Thanks to JimSumner ! Ever since I posted yesterday about Texas Western, something's been bugging me: I knew there was a player I was leaving out -- the great Harry Flournoy. Appreciate your listing his name in your post this morning.

    Also, I have to admit I couldn't wait to see the movie about the Team. True, it had all the Hollywood touches, but it was fun to see the (alledged) exchanges between Coach Haskins (the great Josh Lucas!) and the players, as they made their Championship run. The Rupp part (by Jon Voight) was so venemous, it was laughable. Surely Rupp could not have been that much of a cad -- can one of my fellow old timers shed some light ... ?

    I knew of AR's legend, but was too busy with Carolina, Art Heyman, Cotton Nash, and Everett Case to look further into him.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Kansas City area

    It was the best and worst of times for Kentucky basketball

    Rupp fully admitted till his dying day that this was his favorite team. Kentucky entered the game as a favorite but not overwhelming as some might say. Texas Western aka UTEP was ranked number three in the nation at the time. This game was before my time and I will not comment on the so called racial impacts of the game. Did it change Kentucky basketball for the better? Yes and yes the game will always hurt as that Kentucky team was one of the most popular one's in history. Here are some links to add historic perspective to the game. In the last year there was a good link on You Tube of Rupp after the game in which he was very complimentary of Texas Western and Coach Haskins. Unfortunately it has disappeared from You Tube. Strange to see that Kentucky and UTEP have come full circle with Billy Gillispie now coaching Kentucky after starting at UTEP.

    http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Sta...s/1965-66.html

    http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Sta...asWestern.html

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Loyola was ranked fourth by AP in their 1962-'63 pre-season poll. They never dropped lower than fifth that year. Inasmuch as several of their best players came from segregated southern schools, it's not likely they would have been prep All-Americans.

    Loyola played one game that, IMO, should be every bit as famous as the '66 title game and would make a great subject for a movie, although Hollywood would no doubt botch it. Mississippi State had won several SEC titles but had been prohibited from playing in the NCAAT because of the likelihood they would have to play integrated teams. They won the 1963 SEC title and faced a court order prohibiting them from playing that year. They were about to be served but were tipped off by a sympathetic sheriff and slipped out of the state before the order could be served. Literally snuck out of Mississippi in order to play in March Madness.

    So who do they end up playing? You got it, Loyola of Chicago, with four African American starters and several African American reserves against a school representing a state and a conference that, in many minds, epitomized hard-core resistance to integration and civil rights.

    Folks were predicting sharks versus jets, blood on the court, the end of the world as we know it. What they got was a splendid college-basketball game, won by Loyola 61-51, 40 minutes of respect and good sportsmanship, and absolutely not one act or word of racism from any coach or player.

    ACC teams had been playing integrated teams since at least the early 1950s but the ACC wasn't the SEC. And the ACC was beginning to integrate. As much as any game ever played, this game shattered the myth that black basketball players and white basketball players couldn't get together on a basketball court and just play basketball. Racists lost big time.
    This, along with maybe the 6-3 game against Bama, is usually cited as the greatest moment in MSU sports history. Colvard snuck the team out of town at night on a plane. A North Carolinian, Dean Wallace Colvard later became chancellor at UNCC. He only recently died at age 93.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_W._Colvard

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Great stuff Jimsummer!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Let me add a little bit about the SEC playing integrated teams. It wasn't just hoops. Duke made the CWS in 1961. Only three teams played in the South Regional; should have been four. One of those was Southern Conference champion West Virginia. They had an African American player, maybe two. The NCAA literally could not find a single SEC team willing to play in the regional, at least one with a winning record; not sure how deep they asked.

    I realize for younger readers this stuff sounds like something from another planet but it really happened.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kansas City area

    Rupp was that ornery

    He would give his own players he!!. Once in a game in NYC one his players wasn't playing up to Rupp's standards. Well Rupp told him to go in the corner and do his business. Rupp said at least that way he could tell the folks in Lexington he did something in NYC. He was hard to play for and against as he had exacting standards and didn't relax them for anyone at all. About the story...Rupp's language was a bit rougher than mine. Interesting is that the last all white team at the Final Four was UNC in 1967.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Good post

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Following my own post again. Anyway, the 1962 Cincy team started four African Americans, Paul Hogue, George Wilson, Tom Thacker, and Tony Yates, along with Ron Bonham. Wilson, incidentially, was a teammate of Jeff Mullins (and Larry Brown) on the 1964 U.S. Olympic team.

    There is some feeling that TW winning the NCAA title with five black starters was significantly different than Cincy and Loyola winning with four, because teams supposedly needed a white starter to provide the intellectual boost obviously lacking in black players. I'm not sure I give this theory much credibility. By 1966 African American NBA players like Oscar Robertson, Guy Rodgers, K.C. Jones, and Al Attles were heady point guards and Walt Hazzard had QB'd UCLA to the an undefeated season in 1964. Anyone who thought that talented black players needed a cerebral white player to show them the way was probably so far in denial that they were still waiting for Jeff Davis to come back. But the theory is still out there.
    For so many years the thought was an intellectual white quarterback to lead your football team. Well we now know how stupid that thought is. What a memory you have Jim Sumner. You bring back many memories. Keep the posts coming.
    Last edited by -jk; 09-16-2008 at 11:09 AM. Reason: fix quote tag

  10. #30

    College Park

    Just a few additions to this discussion:

    -- With all the speculation about a possible Duke-Texas Western matchup in the finals, there's one point that almost nobody looks at: If Duke had played TW, there's an excellent chance that Haskins would not have started five blacks. And even if he did start five blacks to make a symbolic point (although Haskins always insisted that his starting lineup was purely a basketball decision), he'd likely have been forced to play a white forward most of the game.

    The two reasons are Jack Marin and Harry Flournoy. You have to remember that Flournoy, who was Haskins shut-down defensive forward, was hurt in the semifinals. Against Rupp's runts, Haskins was able to replace him with Willie Cager, a 5-9 guard, and go with a three-man backcourt (kind of Krzyzewski-like). But Duke's big front line would have presented that lineup problems -- Mike Lewis was a good physical match for Lattin in the middle, while Ortis Artis could have guarded Bob Riedy at one forward.

    But Marin was impossible to guard with a smaller man. The 6-3 Riley, who was Kentucky's top frontcourt defender couldn't handle him in the semifinals. That same night, Utah forward Jerry Chambers almost singlehandedly beat Texas Western because Haskins didn't have anybody to guard him. After Flourney was hurt, Haskins tried Artis and Shed, but ended up having to rely on a 6-8 white forward named Jerry Armstrong. Haskins says in his autobiography that Armstrong, who didn't play in the finals against Kentucky, saved their butts that night by finally shutting down Armstrong.

    Marin would have presented the same kind of problems that Chambers did ... Pat Riley, who played the same position for Kentucky, was just 6-3 and could be guarded by a guard. Haskins could have tried Artis on Marin, but he was better against power forwards (he was helpless against Chambers the night before) and beside, if he did that, who guards the burley Reidy? I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Haskins would have called on Armstrong, if not to start, then to play a good part of the game.

    Overall, Duke would have had a much better chance against Texas Western than Kentucky did ... Bubas had Lewis in the middle to match up with Lattin and he had a superb ballhanding team (TW's pressure on Kentucky made the difference in the game) that had established itself early in the season by smashing the UCLA press in back-to-back games.

    -- Haskins said in his autobiography that as of 1966, no team in the ACC or SEC had a black player. Not true ... in addition to CB Claiborne, who was on the Duke freshman team, Billy Jones made his varsity debut for Maryland that year.

    In fact, Jones was at the 1966 title game, sitting behind the Kentucky bench. He was there hosting two black prospects that the Terps were trying to recruit -- Charlie Davis and Gil McGregor, who both ended up playing at Wake Forest (Davis became the ACC's first black player of the year ... although only after the racists in the ACC media contrived to avoid giving the award to Charlie Scott).

    -- The movie, Glory Road, contains four great distortions:

    (1) The idea that Don Haskins integrated Texas Western and met resistance when he did so is ridiculous. The school and team had been integrated for years before his arrival -- in fact, when he arrived in El Paso, sophomore guard Nolan Richardson (the future Arkansas coach) was waiting on the steps to help him unpack. If there was ever any resistance in El Paso to integration, it was over long before Haskins' arrival.

    (2) The idea that there was doubt about the abilities of black players (one skeptical character says, "You don't think you can win with black players, do you?). Well, considering that this was when Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Roberston, Elgin Baylor and company were dominating the NBA, it's hard to believe that question could be raised. As Jim and others have pointed out, mostly black teams had won NCAA titles as early as 1950 ... also, seven black players were starters in the 1966 NBA all-star games. Texas Western certainly didn't prove that blacks could play the game.

    (3) Maybe the most forgivable error in the film was the idea that Haskins went to the final four in his first year ... as Jim has pointed out, he was there for years and even had a great team two years earlier with All-American Jim Bad New Barnes. That team, which Haskins said was better than the '66 champs, lost by four to Kansas State in the Sweet 16 when Barnes got into foul trouble.

    (4) The worst distortion in the film was the idea that the '66 team only took off when Hawkins loosened the coaching reins and allowed them to play streetball. In fact, the exact opposite happened -- Haskins describes the season as a struggle to get his loose, undisciplined players to play the slow, defensively oriented style that he learned from Hank Iba. That's one reason the '66 title game WAS important -- because it attacked the prejudice that white players played an intelligent game, while black players were wild and undisciplined. What the nation watching that game saw was a wild, undisciplined all-white team beaten by a smart, under-control all-black team playing a slow tempo and superb defense. It's worth noting that Kentucky threw up 70 shots in the title game ... TW just 49.

    And BTW, the movie also distorts the title game by having TW come from behind ... not true ... TW took the lead with the two midcourt steals at the 12 minute mark in the first half and led for the rest of the game -- they were never threatened down the stretch.

    -- Loyola did start four blacks in the 1963 title game against Cincinnati (which started three blacks in 1963 after starting four blacks in 1962), but there was never any point when there were five blacks on the floor as one poster suggested -- The Ramblers used just five players in the entire overtime game. George Ireland lost his top three subs to academics at midseason and in the NCAA Tournament rarely if ever subbed -- never in the title game.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Orleans
    One little correction OF. I believe Willie Cager was a front court player. The third guard you're thinking of is probably Willie Wormsley, who was actually listed at 5-6, and could slam.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    One correction to OF's fine post. Willie Cager was a 6'5" forward. Willie Worsley was the 5'7" guard.

  13. #33

    My remembrances at Cole in '66

    I attended the '66 Final Four during spring break with a great seat which is another whole story how I got it. Since it was my Frosh year with little tv access, I hadn't watched Texas Western or even knew where they were ranked. The whole team including 5'6'' B. Joe Hill dunked in warmups drawing "oohs" and "aahs" from the spectators.
    What I remember conceptually about the games is that TW was darn lucky to be in the West bracket. Utah was about mid ACC level with one outstanding player. The "Bigs" for TW got in foul trouble and they struggled against , as we foud out, an inferior opponent. Whereas the Utah/TW game was viewed as more of a curiousity,The Duke/UK game was full of electricity and excitement. I had seen Verga score around 40 at College Park that winter in a loss. But he just didn't have any energy with the flu. Not knowing much about TW and having seen them play poorly, everybodyat Cole but the TW fans assumed that UK would win the next nite. To this day I wonder how Duke would have fared against TW had Verga not been sick.

  14. #34

    worsley

    Quote Originally Posted by dkbaseball View Post
    One little correction OF. I believe Willie Cager was a front court player. The third guard you're thinking of is probably Willie Wormsley, who was actually listed at 5-6, and could slam.
    Du-oh! You (and Jim) are correct that I confused Cager and Worsley ... Worsley was the 5-6 or 5-7 guard who got the start against Kentucky. Actually, Flourney started the game, but left after barely a minute and didn't return. Cager played most of the way in his place. Shed was the only other sub who played.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Verga was the man

    Quote Originally Posted by wva_iron_duke View Post
    I attended the '66 Final Four during spring break with a great seat which is another whole story how I got it. Since it was my Frosh year with little tv access, I hadn't watched Texas Western or even knew where they were ranked. The whole team including 5'6'' B. Joe Hill dunked in warmups drawing "oohs" and "aahs" from the spectators.
    What I remember conceptually about the games is that TW was darn lucky to be in the West bracket. Utah was about mid ACC level with one outstanding player. The "Bigs" for TW got in foul trouble and they struggled against , as we foud out, an inferior opponent. Whereas the Utah/TW game was viewed as more of a curiousity,The Duke/UK game was full of electricity and excitement. I had seen Verga score around 40 at College Park that winter in a loss. But he just didn't have any energy with the flu. Not knowing much about TW and having seen them play poorly, everybodyat Cole but the TW fans assumed that UK would win the next nite. To this day I wonder how Duke would have fared against TW had Verga not been sick.
    I to have often wondered just how things would have worked out if Bob Verga had not been ill. Bob was one of the best guards to ever play college basketball. In my opinion he was as good if not better than JJ. This Duke team may have been the best Duke team ever. Well maybe not as good as '92 but very close. Now that I think about it the '64 team was not far behind. Heck most of Vic's teams were good.

  16. #36
    All this talk of the 1966 Team has got me fired up again. Art Heyman and Jeff Mullins got it started for Coach Bubas earlier in the '60s, then came this outstanding group. Bob Verga had nights he was nearly unstoppable, and Jack Marin was arguably the most capable 6-6 forward in the country. Mike Lewis was solid in the post, Reidy was a terrific role player, and you had to virtually tackle Vacendak to stop his game motor. What a great team -- I do believe they would have presented serious matchup problems for Texas Western.

    History may have been altered on Championship night, but it's hard to find fault with the way it worked out ... yet it doesn't mean that I was anything LESS than miserable when Duke's season ended on the night before.

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