2008 Carolina Panthers thread

[rockymtn devil]

Not being a Panthers fan--and having read only a couple of the recent posts in this thread--I'll add some thoughts on the loss. Blame Delhomme if you like, but, IMO, he didn't lose this game. Instead, he was unable to win it. The Panthers are a running football team. Running teams are not strong at coming back from behind because, generally, they are about ball control as opposed to quick strike. So, when the defense allowed the Cardinals to get ahead early 17-7 (aided by turnovers) that was the game. The defenses' inability to keep Arizona out of the end zone early doomed the Panthers because the game had to be won by a QB who is not capable of winning a game with his arm. Blame the defense for this loss.

The notion that a care-taker QB would've won tonight is ridiculous. Care-takers don't come from behind. Can you win a Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme? Of course. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl after all.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I could echo most of the thoughts on Delhomme in this thread, I blame the loss on him. The turnovers were all his responsibility, so he gets to be the goat. As some have stated, when he is working well he's hard to stop, he has led the team plenty of times to comeback wins and held leads in close games. For whatever reason it didn't happen tonight in the Panthers biggest game in years.

Ozzie's Asack comment still has me laughing.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

We wouldn't have been behind if Delhomme hadn't coughed up a fumble and a horrible INT on back to back drives in the first quarter. Our D wasn't good, but the majority of their points came from the amazing field position they had based on, you guessed it, turnovers. With the advantages we had (don't forget our running game looked amazing on that first drive before Delhomme put us behind the eight ball and the coaches once again trusted him to make plays) we would have killed Arizona with a game "manager" like Flacco. With a lead and all the momentum he'd just hand off to our amazing RB's and make smart passes to Smith and Moose. Delhomme created the problem and then spent the rest of the night exacerbating it.

Look, by all accounts Jake is a great person and when he's on he can look pretty good (although I think most of the credit has to go to Smith, Moose, and our other receivers who cover for Delhomme's mistakes with amazing catches). But he has been pretty bad for the last half of the season. And more than that, he's been making really bad decisions for YEARS. He's been the QB for some playoff success, but I don't think it's fair to say that he "took" us anywhere. Our D, a number of amazing RB's, and Steve Smith did that.

If a guy has a bad game, that's tough but acceptable. But he's just never learned what is and is not a good throw. That "gunslinger" mentality may be ok for Brett Favre (although I think he's wildly overrated) but with the team we have and that Foxy wants to build we don't need a gunslinger. In fact, that's the only way to take an amazing team and have them out in the first round to the Arizona Cardinals.

Anyway, whatever your feeling is about Jake, I think everyone agrees that we need to get a new QB, at least as a backup and building for the future ASAP. The fact that we had nobody behind him, especially after last season, is mind-boggling to me. Maybe if he could have taken a series off he could have gotten him head right. But either way we have a major hole at QB and, sadly, no first round draft pick. This has been a glaring issue for years and the fact that we haven't even seriously tried to address it drives me crazy.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie's Asack comment still has me laughing.

I'm glad somebody liked it! I was sort of hoping that FDA was reading this thread

As to the QB future in Charlotte, barring a major trade, Jake is it for next season. Yes, they do need a backup to groom to take his place. There are five top quarterbacks in this year's draft (as shown on ESPN early on Saturday), and Tim Tebow is listed as the fifth one because most folks think he should change positions int he NFL. Five is not quite seven (Dan Marino was the 7th QB taken in the early 80's draft that gave us so many all-pro QBs). Maybe, just maybe, the Panthers can trade up to a low first round pick and find a future gem.

[captmojo]

This game was won by the lack of championship caliber talent in the Panther's defensive secondary. Couldn't anyone be assigned to shadow Fitzgerald? The last game, against Drew Brees, showed their vulnerable ineptitude and the Card's were smart enough to take advantage.

Turnovers never help, but this wasn't all Jake's fault. Worst time to play your worst game, pal. Best time for AZ to show their best. Where has it been hiding all season? Keep this level of play up and they'll be holding the Lombardi.



By the way, I'm bummed out by this and only a Wake win over the holes can salvage the next 12 hours.

[Misunderestimated]

What a crushing way to end the season. Feels a little like the Duke-LSU game a couple years back in the NCAA tourney. The first drive of the game was beautiful - after that, the team comes unglued. There was not one aspect of the Panthers showing to hang your hat on. From kickoffs going out of bounds, interceptions, allowing Fitzgerald to be wide effin open! Now its back to the drawing board. I fully expect Jake to be at the helm next season. I'll be happy to help Peppers load up his moving van.

If Wake beats UNC tonight, Charlotte will be in full-scale crisis mode. Grief counselors will be needed on Monday.

[ironduke2009]

I was very disappointed in our Panthers last night. Jake picked the most important game of the season to have a terrible night. I like many of the folks who have posted on here think we can get a better QB, but it it seems like the Panthers will keep him forever. I do like Jake as a person, he is a great guy, just not a premier QB...

[Highlander]

Look, by all accounts Jake is a great person and when he's on he can look pretty good (although I think most of the credit has to go to Smith, Moose, and our other receivers who cover for Delhomme's mistakes with amazing catches). But he has been pretty bad for the last half of the season. And more than that, he's been making really bad decisions for YEARS. He's been the QB for some playoff success, but I don't think it's fair to say that he "took" us anywhere. Our D, a number of amazing RB's, and Steve Smith did that.

Your memory is a little selective. Jake's threw for 5 TDs, ran for 2 more and had only 3 INT's over the last 7 games of the season. The 8th game was against Oakland and he had 4 INTs, but the Panthers won anyway. During that time his bad decision to throw deep to Smith won the Green Bay and New Orleans games after the defense had given up the lead late in the 4Q. The Panthers offense has played it's best football in years over the second half of the season, and Jake has to get some of the credit for that IMO. Throw in the Chargers game at the beginning of the year, and that's THREE times this season alone that Jake engineered a game winning, come from behind win for us, two of which were in the "last half of the season" when he was playing so poorly. No way a QB like Flacco makes those throws, so in all likelihood the Panthers lose those three games, the division, and possibly the playoffs altogether.

Also, you forget that the Panthers DID go out and get a solid backup for Jake last year (it was the guy who used to start for the Texans. Harrington? Was that his name? Let's just call him "gloves"), and everyone thought he would challenge Jake for the starting job. When Jake got hurt, he had the job outright. Problem was, he ended up sucking royally, and the Panthers had to find a serviceable backup midseason. All they could find was an aging veteran (Testaverde) and a third stringer (Moore) both of which outplayed the guy they got to replace Jake.

Jake is definitely a risk taker/gambler/etc. When it works, which is most of the time, no one complains. When it doesn't, like last night, everyone throws him under the bus. That's part of what you get with a mantra like that. I am constantly amazed how much of a free pass the Defense at Carolina gets. They haven't played well in weeks, yet all anyone talks about is how Jake couldn't keep the offense on the field longer, or how their hurt, or whatever kind of excuse they can think of.

I know that no matter how good (or bad) Jake is, some people are done with Jake. However, I need to look no farther than the Panthers 7-9 season last year without him, or at NC State's who went from top half of the conference to bottom half in a matter of years because they were "done" with Herb Sendek to see what rolling the dice on a new QB could mean.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I need to look no farther than at NC State's who went from top half of the conference to bottom half in a matter of years because they were "done" with Herb Sendek to see what rolling the dice on a new QB could mean.

Now that's a mixed metaphor if I've ever heard one.

[Acymetric]

Highlander:

I'll ask you again. Is Jake one of the 16 best starters in the league right now? Who is below him? Do you really think they couldn't find a better QB? I'm not saying they should toss him, but I've been saying for years they need to get another starting caliber QB on the team to challenge him. You mentioned some of his late game heroics to Steve Smith, but I recall 2 of those. One was a mistake by a defender who could have easily knocked it down, the other was a spectacular job by Steve Smith. Jake certainly gets credit for getting the ball there, but I give about 80-90% of the credit to Smith for being one of the best receivers in the league. I would prefer to have a QB that could get the ball to Smith and the other receivers like that without having 4 interception games.

I did say that I didn't think the defense (or any other part of the team) played well, including the coaches. But the defense didn't give the ball to the Cardinals with incredible field position over and over again. The defense didn't throw interceptions close to the endzone where an incompletion would have yielded at least a field goal. There need to be a lot of changes made to this team, and change at QB needs to at least be considered.

[Highlander]

Highlander:

I'll ask you again. Is Jake one of the 16 best starters in the league right now? Who is below him? Do you really think they couldn't find a better QB? I'm not saying they should toss him, but I've been saying for years they need to get another starting caliber QB on the team to challenge him. You mentioned some of his late game heroics to Steve Smith, but I recall 2 of those. One was a mistake by a defender who could have easily knocked it down, the other was a spectacular job by Steve Smith. Jake certainly gets credit for getting the ball there, but I give about 80-90% of the credit to Smith for being one of the best receivers in the league. I would prefer to have a QB that could get the ball to Smith and the other receivers like that without having 4 interception games.

I did say that I didn't think the defense (or any other part of the team) played well, including the coaches. But the defense didn't give the ball to the Cardinals with incredible field position over and over again. The defense didn't throw interceptions close to the endzone where an incompletion would have yielded at least a field goal. There need to be a lot of changes made to this team, and change at QB needs to at least be considered.

So Jake shouldn't make throws where the defender makes a mistake or when Smith can make a great play? You're point is essentially anything good that happens in the passing game is in spite of Jake, where anything bad is because of him. You can't have it both ways. If Jake doesn't make those throws, the Panthers lose those games plain and simple. If you'd rather have a conservative QB who would have handed off on a run up the middle rather than taking a chance that his all pro receiver could make a play, that's your call. Personally, I'm glad Jake gave Smitty the chance to win the game rather than make a conservative throw underneath and go home with an L.

What I said is that the Panthers DID get a starting QB last year to challenge Jake, and that he couldn't deliver even when Jake was hurt. Based on the numbers, Jake is pretty much in the middle of the pack in the league, just above the midway point. So yes, I think he's in the top half of the league.

Regular Season Games this season with 3 or more INTs:
Drew Brees - 4
Aaron Rodgers - 2
Rivers - 0
Warner - 2
P. Manning - 0 (although he had a ton with 2)
E. Manning - 3
Delhomme - 2

Delhomme's ranks among starting QBs:
Yards - 15
TD's - 19
INT's T-11 w/ P. Manning

The Panthers need a reliable backup. What I'm saying is that they could do a lot worse than 12-4 Jake Delhomme, and if you roll the dice on a new QB, it's a lot more likely you end up with a washout than the next Eli Manning (who was also considered a washout/average QB until last season's miracle run).

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Your memory is a little selective.

This season Jake had 15 TD's and 12 INT's in the regular season and 0TD's/5INT's in the post season. That's a total of 15 TD's and 17 INT's for the season. Since he came here in 2003 (and ignoring last season when he was out) he averaging about 14 INT's per season.

Look, we all agree he's a gambler and he certainly goes on some hot streaks that look good, especially since he has Smith and Moose to make some great catches to cover for bad/risky passes. Nonetheless, his numbers have been fairly consistent throughout his career and he just hasn't gotten better about taking care of the ball. That would be a problem for any team, but it's especially painful for a team that wants to focus on ball-control.

Also, you forget that the Panthers DID go out and get a solid backup for Jake last year.

I guess I'd argue that the results (and his past history of being a complete bust) makes it clear that we DIDN'T get a solid backup. We got a high draft pick who had already proved to be unsuitable and confirmed what was known about him.

I completely agree that our D has been overrated since we stopped using steroids after the Super Bowl season, and I think Pep may be the most over-hyped player in the NFL right now. Jake didn't lose the game by himself, although he has to get the lion's share (should we reconsider this phrase now that a "Lion's share" is 0-16?) of the blame. But the fact is he's ALWAYS a threat to lose a game for us. He takes major risks when we don't need them and he's never been able to correct that in his decade in the league.

We have one of the 4-5 best receiving corps in the NFL and Smitty particularly makes some huge plays. We also have a ground game that was GREAT this season. What this team needs is a QB who won't kill us and can use the amazing weapons he has around him. What we have is a riverboat gambler who goes for the home run even when it clearly isn't there. That's who he is and there's no sign he will ever be anything else. If you think we can't find a better QB that's really sad, but you may be correct. But gambler's don't make good QB's, especially for teams based on D and the ground game. He the wrong guy on the wrong team and I lost faith in him a long time ago. The fact that we've never made any serious effort to rectify that has led me to lose faith in the organization as well.

[Highlander]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2008

Jake's regular season QB Passer Rating of 84.7 was #18th in the league. Considering that Carolina emerged as primarily a running team, it's not altogether surprising his rating is where it is. Jake's rated higher than other playoff QB's like Ben Rothlesberger, Joe Flacco, and Kerry Collins. Also, there are a derth of QB's in the league with rankings between 84 and 88, which makes them all about the same in my mind. Among them are three other "better" playoff QBs like Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, and Donovan McNabb.

Also of note, of the QBs ranked #4-10 on this list, only one made the playoffs.

[Highlander]

We have one of the 4-5 best receiving corps in the NFL and Smitty particularly makes some huge plays. We also have a ground game that was GREAT this season. What this team needs is a QB who won't kill us and can use the amazing weapons he has around him. What we have is a riverboat gambler who goes for the home run even when it clearly isn't there. That's who he is and there's no sign he will ever be anything else. If you think we can't find a better QB that's really sad, but you may be correct. But gambler's don't make good QB's, especially for teams based on D and the ground game. He the wrong guy on the wrong team and I lost faith in him a long time ago. The fact that we've never made any serious effort to rectify that has led me to lose faith in the organization as well.

He did rush for 2 TD's as well, and threw for one late in the game last night so that puts him at 17 to 12 for the regular season, and 1/5 for the postseason. I listed stats for other QBs in the league. Ryan was 16/11 for the regular season and had a rating of 87.7, a statistical average with Delhomme. Instead they're erecting statues to Ryan in Atlanta and people are ready to run Jake out of town on a rail.

Second, I'd argue that we don't have one of the top 4-5 receiving corps in the league. We have one of the top 4-5 RECEIVERS in the league, and a pretty good situational guy who is a great blocker (Moose). Our 3rd receivers and tight ends are below average pass catchers. Arizona, New Orleans, New York, Indianapolis, Green Bay, Dallas, and New England I would argue all are better than us, top to bottom. And that's off the top of my head.

Carolina has only had one season where they had a losing record with Jake, and they finished 7-9. In his six years they've made the playoffs three times, the NFC Championship game twice, and the Super Bowl once. In the Super Bowl, the guy was sensational, and set a number of QB records in the game, including one for QB rating IIRC. The guy may take risks, but his career record is 49-31, so his gambles pay off more often than not. Look no further than the games I mentioned, one of which (San Diego) he won on the road this year without Smith on a game winning TD that didn't go to Moose either.

The Panthers needed a lot of help after last season. Fox knew he had to produce this year so he traded draft picks to get both Stewart and Otah in this year's draft. They rolled the dice that Jake would be fully healthy. All three of those gambles worked out superbly, and are part of the main reason we went from 7-9 to 12-4. Their first round draft pick from this year is now late first round due to their record. Would you have traded either Stewart or Otah for a backup QB in last year's draft instead? I wouldn't have.

As for next year, signing a high profile QB like McNabb or Cassell will likely cost Carolina some coin and any chance they have of resigning Peppers. Even if losing Pep is OK to you, you've got to fill his spot as well as getting another QB.

Yesterday's loss stings for me, it really does. Jake had his worst game as a pro, no doubt about it. Still, it was an important game, but it's still just one game. Without Jake, I doubt the Panthers even make the playoffs this year, much less get the #2 seed, so I am just trying to keep things in perspective. I'm fine with the Panthers starting to look at a backup QB next season, but I think we've got bigger problems at DE and in the secondary than we do at the backup QB position. Deciding whether to resign Peppers and whether to keep Ken Lucas are #1 and #2 on my list.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I think you're giving Jake too much credit for our success and our superlative receivers (Smitty obviously, but Moose is really underrated, IMO) and RB's (and our D which is overrated but still very good) too little, but that's obviously subjective. There are, IMO, 20-25 QB's who would have taken this team to the playoffs. With a more conservative QB we may have 1-2 fewer wins since Jake's gambles paid off, but we'd also still be playing next weekend.

I don't think the Ryan comparison is good simply because he's a rookie exceeding expectations. Folks are excited based on what they expect him to become. Jake has become what he is. He ain't getting better. In fact his numbers have been getting worse as his TD's have declined every season since 2004.

But the real issue is not whether he's a "good" QB. It's that he's an unreliable one. His high-risk approach (which still led to more INT's than TD's this season and if we're adding rushing then we have to add his 3 fumbles as well) just doesn't work with what Foxy is trying to build. If we were built to air it out a lot and try to outgun teams his TO's might not be such a big deal. But we're built to run and then use the pass for big plays. But when your QB is as (or this season more) likely to make a big play for the other team, it kills everything you're trying to do. There are systems that maximize what Jake brings to the table. But whether you call him a "game manager" a "caretaker" or whatever, our system needs a smart and safe QB. Right now it's like we have Taylor King as our PG in a Herb Sendek system.

[Highlander]

I think you're giving Jake too much credit for our success and our superlative receivers (Smitty obviously, but Moose is really underrated, IMO) and RB's (and our D which is overrated but still very good) too little, but that's obviously subjective. There are, IMO, 20-25 QB's who would have taken this team to the playoffs. With a more conservative QB we may have 1-2 fewer wins since Jake's gambles paid off, but we'd also still be playing next weekend.

I don't think the Ryan comparison is good simply because he's a rookie exceeding expectations. Folks are excited based on what they expect him to become. Jake has become what he is. He ain't getting better. In fact his numbers have been getting worse as his TD's have declined every season since 2004.

But the real issue is not whether he's a "good" QB. It's that he's an unreliable one. His high-risk approach (which still led to more INT's than TD's this season and if we're adding rushing then we have to add his 3 fumbles as well) just doesn't work with what Foxy is trying to build. If we were built to air it out a lot and try to outgun teams his TO's might not be such a big deal. But we're built to run and then use the pass for big plays. But when your QB is as (or this season more) likely to make a big play for the other team, it kills everything you're trying to do. There are systems that maximize what Jake brings to the table. But whether you call him a "game manager" a "caretaker" or whatever, our system needs a smart and safe QB. Right now it's like we have Taylor King as our PG in a Herb Sendek system.

You didn't answer my question about draft picks, but whatever.

I think you're not giving Jake any credit whatsoever for what has been the six best years this franchise has ever seen. Our D is not very good. It's not even good. It's average at best, and getting older ever year. It's been living off of reputation since the Super Bowl, and had to be carried by Jake and the offense for the entire second half of the season. Until we get a true, shut down, top 5 defense, a game manager QB would cripple our high powered offense and expose our defense for what it is. Average.

Without a gunslinger QB this year, Carolina finishes at best 9-7 and has to play at Arizona or Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs. Personally, I think 12-4, playing at home, and taking my chances with a gunslinger is a better situation, but if you'd rather have the former, so be it. I won't argue with you.

At this point, I think the best thing that could happen to Carolina was to have Jake leave and have this team muddle around at 6-10 or 4-12 for a few seasons so people could get some perspective. Just look at our opponents. The Cardinals have a legitimate shot to win the NFC and the Super Bowl for the first time in forerver, surprising as that may seem. They haven't won a division in over 30 years. Carolina's done it three times since 1995, two of which with Jake in the last six years.

Believe me, we could do a lot worse than Jake, last night notwithstanding.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think this thread has run its course. Probably time to take it off line and PM each other to your heart's content!

[captmojo]

I think this thread has run its course. Probably time to take it off line and PM each other to your heart's content!

Before it leaves in the dust, I'd like to mention that there were many QBs in the NFL that were better in talent than Bart Starr, yet he won championships.

[CameronBornAndBred]

By the way, I'm bummed out by this and only a Wake win over the holes can salvage the next 12 hours.

Salvaged.

[captmojo]

Before it leaves in the dust, I'd like to mention that there were many QBs in the NFL that were better in talent than Bart Starr, yet he won championships.

Salvaged.

Glory hallelujah!