Duke's Backcourt

[Jumbo]

Obviously, my initial statement was a little simplistic as our line-up at crunch time will vary according to the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. When our opponent is a team with excellent team speed including multiple speedy guards, I fully expect to see Nolan Smith and Elliot Williams playing at crunch time. Jon Scheyer is an excellent wing defender and he will be on the court to handle the ball due to his free throw shooting ability.

Bob, I just don't see it. Well, I see half of it -- I think Nolan will really push Greg for playing time this year and absolutely could finish games if he makes strides. But there's no way Williams plays key minutes ahead of Scheyer, regardless of the needs. He's going to have to be pretty darn good to be a better defender than Scheyer, who has shut down guys from Ellington to Thaddeus Young in his two years at Duke. Again, his quickness, length and defensive instincts are vastly underrated. He's best off the ball, denying on the wing, but he's absolutely fine guarding quick guys off the dribble. In fact, I think Scheyer might be a better on-ball defender than Henderson.

[ACCBBallFan]

If Zou is healthy, Lance plays tough like we hope, and we get good minutes from Miles, then Singler won't have to play inside nearly as much as last year and I think our rebounding will still be as good or better. I am really looking forward to seeing what Singler can do playing his more natural position this year. Plus it will help him stay fresher toward the end of the season. He was spent by the time March rolled around.

Not fond of a lineup of one big and 4 guards except in unusual circumstances. I agree with this poster that the key is Zoubek and Lance.

If you extend the premise of the thread Duke is as strong as anyone at the 1-4 and just needs decent production particularly at post defender and rebounder to be very competitive.

[bleeddukeblue]

Bob, I just don't see it. Well, I see half of it -- I think Nolan will really push Greg for playing time this year and absolutely could finish games if he makes strides. But there's no way Williams plays key minutes ahead of Scheyer, regardless of the needs. He's going to have to be pretty darn good to be a better defender than Scheyer, who has shut down guys from Ellington to Thaddeus Young in his two years at Duke. Again, his quickness, length and defensive instincts are vastly underrated. He's best off the ball, denying on the wing, but he's absolutely fine guarding quick guys off the dribble. In fact, I think Scheyer might be a better on-ball defender than Henderson.

You must of have never seen this kid play defense. I saw him go against Danny Green in the pro am tournament! He made him turn the ball over 3 or 4 times up in Danny Green's face. This kid is a better defender than Sheyer now. He might be the best defender on the team now! He is not scared of anyone!!! He was the MVP of that tournament and it had alot of good players. He goes after you. His jump shot needs work but his defense is superior!!!

[Carlos]

bleeddukeblue - I was at that game also and Williams certainly locked down on Danny Green. It was beautiful to watch and it bodes well for Elliot's potential at Duke.

But it's a long way from locking down on a guy trying to create off the dribble (not exactly one of Danny Green's strengths, BTW) in a summer pro am league to being a disciplined defender against a team running an actual offense.

I'd also add that Williams was not the MVP of that league - it went to Bo Ingram, an incoming freshman at ECU. The Tournament MVP went to Derrick Wiley, a guy who averaged 14 ppg at ECU. There's a message in there about trying to translate pro am league success into ACC success.

[Jumbo]

You must of have never seen this kid play defense.

I've seen him play defense on just a couple of occasions in all-star settings. But none of us has seen him play Duke defense.

I saw him go against Danny Green in the pro am tournament!

Why are you yelling?

He made him turn the ball over 3 or 4 times up in Danny Green's face.

Great. It was a summer tournament. Insert your own line about Nick Horvath here.

This kid is a better defender than Sheyer now.

I should hope he's a better defender than this "Sheyer" person, since I've never heard of that guy. If you mean Jon Scheyer, that remains to be seen.

He might be the best defender on the team now!

Based on what? Again, he hasn't even played a minute of defense in Duke's system. And please, stop yelling.

He is not scared of anyone!!!

Um, okay. Now you're yelling even louder. And are the other players scared of someone? What does this even mean?

He was the MVP of that tournament and it had alot of good players. He goes after you.

I really don't put much stock in the glorified pick-up gams that are summer tournaments. Sorry.

His jump shot needs work but his defense is superior!!!

Defense isn't just about being able to stay in front of your man. It's about helping, recovering, forcing players to the right spot on the floor, etc. And Duke does some things differently on D than most programs. Williams might indeed be a superior defender. We'll see. But for now, I have every right to be skeptical, because there has been a learning curve for nearly every freshman I've seen at Duke. Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

[COYS]

Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

Jumbo, this is a point that can't be stated enough. Whenever people compare Duke's backcourt to UNC's, I feel like they often forget to add defense into the mix. Lawson is a terrible defender. He's got quick hands and is low to the ground so he comes up with steals by picking people's pockets from time to time, but his lack of height and length make him anything but a lockdown defender on the perimeter. Ellington's lateral quickness has long been overrated by most people who cover college ball (but not the scouts who looked at him as a second-round NBA prospect). He's a great shooter and free throw shooter, but he doesn't get to the rim particularly easily (I believe that Scheyer had significantly more FT attempts last year in fewer minutes than Ellington) and his on the ball defense and help defense are underwhelming. Scheyer is a superb defender who is almost never out of position and who's lateral quickness is vastly underrated. Plus, he knows opposing players' habits. He doesn't rely on instinct alone. He knows if the guy he's guarding favors his right or left, likes to cross over or reverse pivot, etc . . . and he forces that player out of his comfort zone. When you combine Scheyer's superb defense with his offensive efficiency, you have one of the best college guards in the nation, even if his role is generally as a supporting member rather than as a statistical (or media) star. Then again, he certainly can take over a game if needed (see: Duke at FSU this past season).

[DevilDan]

Geez, I just hope our TEAM gets after it as much in November as WE are doing on DBR...HA! I posted yesterday the point that we need an inside game to add to our weapons (DUH!). I have absolutely no worries about our 6-to-8 guards & small forwards. Match our group up against almost any other team's G/SF's, and we rule.

But we GOTTA have some inside presence ... Lance / Brian / Miles / Olek -- one or two of these guys has got to emerge. Even if by committee, 8-10 points, 10 boards, and some key stops during each game is HUGE, if we are to be among the elite teams come Feb-March.

Just keep Kyle out of the post -- then we'll see just how great this kid is ! Because we have such a team concept, it's doubtful he will get the AA notice he deserves, but if we can keep him at forward, he'll give us numbers all season !

[BlueintheFace]

Just keep Kyle out of the post -- then we'll see just how great this kid is ! Because we have such a team concept, it's doubtful he will get the AA notice he deserves, but if we can keep him at forward, he'll give us numbers all season !

Here's an interesting question -- Will Kyle Singler's rebounding numbers go up, down, or stay the same with all the depth at post? He averaged 5.8 r/gm last season.

[bleeddukeblue]

I've seen him play defense on just a couple of occasions in all-star settings. But none of us has seen him play Duke defense.


Why are you yelling?


Great. It was a summer tournament. Insert your own line about Nick Horvath here.


I should hope he's a better defender than this "Sheyer" person, since I've never heard of that guy. If you mean Jon Scheyer, that remains to be seen.


Based on what? Again, he hasn't even played a minute of defense in Duke's system. And please, stop yelling.


Um, okay. Now you're yelling even louder. And are the other players scared of someone? What does this even mean?


I really don't put much stock in the glorified pick-up gams that are summer tournaments. Sorry.


Defense isn't just about being able to stay in front of your man. It's about helping, recovering, forcing players to the right spot on the floor, etc. And Duke does some things differently on D than most programs. Williams might indeed be a superior defender. We'll see. But for now, I have every right to be skeptical, because there has been a learning curve for nearly every freshman I've seen at Duke. Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

I not yelling. I just really high on the kid I got to play a couple of pick games with him. You should come play sometime if you are any good. I graduate from college and played basketball for four-years so I have played against some good talent. I have stuck it to Jon Scheyers plenty of times so I know what I'm talking about. So don't get so defended. Sorry I mispelled his name but you know what I meant. We will see how good he is very soon.

[natedog4ever]

The post that hijacked this thread into another line-ups thread was regarding "crunch time".

<Echoes> crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler <Echoes>

Again, love it or hate it, that is what will happen. We can revisit during the season or if you want to bet money, I'm good with that also.

We would need to define "crunch time", but off the cuff I would say the game is under 10 pts with less than 4 minutes left.

[Jumbo]

The post that hijacked this thread into another line-ups thread was regarding "crunch time".

<Echoes> crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler <Echoes>

Again, love it or hate it, that is what will happen. We can revisit during the season or if you want to bet money, I'm good with that also.

We would need to define "crunch time", but off the cuff I would say the game is under 10 pts with less than 4 minutes left.

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

[Jumbo]

I not yelling. I just really high on the kid I got to play a couple of pick games with him. You should come play sometime if you are any good. I graduate from college and played basketball for four-years so I have played against some good talent. I have stuck it to Jon Scheyers plenty of times so I know what I'm talking about. So don't get so defended. Sorry I mispelled his name but you know what I meant. We will see how good he is very soon.

I'm sorry, but it's very hard to take someone seriously when he says, "I not yelling." Or "I just really high on the kid ..." The verb store called ...
"I graduate from college?" Did you mean "graduated?" What on earth does "don't get so defended" mean? Do you mean "defensive?" If so, I'm not. I'm just have no reason to believe or trust anything you've said.

I'm sure you've "stuck it to Jon Scheyer plenty of times." But PlayStation games don't count.

[BD80]

I'm sorry, but it's very hard to take someone seriously when he says, "I not yelling." Or "I just really high on the kid ..." The verb store called ...
"I graduate from college?" Did you mean "graduated?" What on earth does "don't get so defended" mean? Do you mean "defensive?" If so, I'm not. I'm just have no reason to believe or trust anything you've said.

I'm sure you've "stuck it to Jon Scheyer plenty of times." But PlayStation games don't count.

So much for the "kinder, gentler blowhard"

[Jumbo]

So much for the "kinder, gentler blowhard"

Ha! Sorry, between the yelling, the constant spelling/grammar errors and the ridiculous proclamations about playing college basketball and schooling Jon Scheyer, there's only so much I can handle. Then again, maybe bleeddukeblue is really Ty Lawson.

[BD80]

Here's an interesting question -- Will Kyle Singler's rebounding numbers go up, down, or stay the same with all the depth at post? He averaged 5.8 r/gm last season.

If Zoub can earn more minutes, Kyle's rebounds will go up. BZ will occupy the other teams best rebounder and the TEAM rebounding average will go up more than BZ's personal increase. If BZ can learn to hold his position, he will get more rebounds and will create many more rebounds for the other Duke players on the floor. IF BZ can generate some offense from the low post and draw some doubling, that will open up many rebounding opportunities for Kyle on the off side.

OC might have the strength to box out to give Kyle some more rebounds, but I don't see him playing enough to make much of a difference in Kyle's stats.

Lance and Plumlee can boost Kyle's stats a bit just by getting minutes against the opponent's "5", thus freeing Kyle to a less physical match up.

I don't see any of our "depth" reducing Kyle's minutes much. He is still our best player. He and Gerald are going to make this a fun year.

[MChambers]

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

Didn't Coach K say after the last loss last season that the team needed to get bigger? I took this to mean playing a bigger lineup more, although I suppose it could have meant that our players needed to lift more weights. I think it means we'll see Kyle almost exclusively at the 4 (if Duke played positions -- ) and some mix of Thomas, Zoubek, MP1, and OC in the other big spot.

[natedog4ever]

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

Trust me, I want to believe you, but I'll believe it when I see it. Again, anybody that wants to bet, I'm open. That leaves me a winner either way.

[Jumbo]

Trust me, I want to believe you, but I'll believe it when I see it. Again, anybody that wants to bet, I'm open. That leaves me a winner either way.

I hear you, and I've been there. As I said, a lot of people didn't agree with me last summer that we'd finish games with Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler. But from what I'm hearing and based on the differences between Nelson and Smith, I expect that to change. I'm not saying that there won't be a couple of situations where matchups enable us to finish games with that group. But I think it will be a much more fluid situation, and I do know that the staff is committed to playing bigger, keeping Singler at the 4 as much as possible and really developing Zoubek. Take it for what you will ...

[Wander]

But PlayStation games don't count.

Please don't ruin my experience of beating Carolina 120-60 led by Sean Dockery's quadruple-double.

[BD80]

When have you ever known for a Duke guard to come in and not contribute immediately.

Martinus Pocius.

That isn't saying he won't contribute this year. I think Marty could be instant offense for us.