Skip Carey - Hall of Famer?

[EarlJam]

From a conversation on the Skip Carey thread.

Weigh in, share opinions.

Is Skip Carey a worthy Broadcast Hall of Famer or is he mostly a local/regional icon and hall of famer in Braves' fans heart?

-EarlJam

[rthomas]

You can put the whole family in the Hall.

[captmojo]

You can put the whole family in the Hall.

Total agreement!

[JasonEvans]

Given that people in Atlanta and Alaska both watched the Braves fervently during the 80s when the Superstation revolutionized the notion of what "America's Team" really meant, it is a bit hard for me to see Skip as a "regional icon."

--Jason "he and daddy both belong in the Hall... maybe someday Chip will too" Evans

[EarlJam]

Given that people in Atlanta and Alaska both watched the Braves fervently during the 80s when the Superstation revolutionized the notion of what "America's Team" really meant, it is a bit hard for me to see Skip as a "regional icon."

--Jason "he and daddy both belong in the Hall... maybe someday Chip will too" Evans

I tried to make this point a bit in an earlier post. You did it much, much better. The "Superstation." Long before all this cable madness. Skip was a pioneer. Far from regional indeed!

-EarlJam

[Scoring Point]

TBS the "Superstation" was indeed a pioneer, but the notion that the Braves were ever "America's Team" is an utter crock. Sure, they could claim to have a handful of fans in every state, but do you honestly think the Braves have ever captured "top mind share" among baseball's fans, even during their remarkable run of division titles and postseason appearances? Puhleeeeze!

I remember watching plenty of sports as an undergrad (early/mid 80s), when cable was just starting to expand, and TBS was still truly unique. My buddies and I had a lot of arguments over teams and announcers, but one thing that we all - save for the Braves fans - agreed on was that Skip Caray was awful.

What TBS really did was allow the Braves to build and consolidate a fanbase throughout the Southeast and, to a lesser extent, rural areas in other parts of the US. To claim that it did much more than this baseball-wise weakens rather than strengthens your arguments fellas. Sorry, but that's homerism of the most obvious kind.

To repeat my questions from the other thread, how many awards has Skip won that were not regional in nature? How many times was he asked to do a broadcast for a network other than TBS? For a game that didn't involve the Braves or another Atlanta team?

And I'll add one more - how many glowing eulogies for Skip have you seen from national or other regional media outlets? I was watching SportsCenter the morning after he passed away. They had a brief segment on him which mentioned Harry and Chip as much as it did Skip. Nothing since.

[hurleyfor3]

Not even close.

Also, in order to be "America's Team" you have to sell out your stadium for playoff games. All of them, not just the ones Cubs fans come down for.

At least six or seven mlb teams have a broader fanbase than the braves.

[rthomas]

I never wanted the Braves to be "America's Team" because I always hated all the other "America's Teams" like the Cowboys and the Celtics.

But, alot of people hated the Braves too becasue of the genius of Ted.

[jma4life]

According to the Harris polls, the Braves had a seven year stretch of indeed being the most popular team in baseball going into the 1999 season.

"The Atlanta Braves are America. s favorite baseball team for the seventh year in a row, followed by the Yankees and the Cubs. The first three places in this annual Harris Poll on baseball are unchanged since last year."

This year, Atlanta is the number 2 most popular team. Just because the fans in Atlanta were not great for a couple of years does not mean that the national fanbase is no the largest.

[Matches]

Even if Skip was primarily a regional rather than a national icon, he belongs in the HoF. There are tons of guys in the HoF whose appeal was primarily regional.

Skip was the face of a franchise that was, at one time, the league's most visible.

[Lavabe]

I am confused over the thread question.

Do you mean some sort of nationally-based Broadcasting Hall of Fame?

As for COOPERSTOWN, no broadcaster (unless previously a HOF player) is ever "inducted." Instead, usually one recipient a year can get the Ford Frick Award. Previous recipients include Mel Allen, Red Barber, Vin Scully, Jack Buck, Harry Caray, and Ernie Harwell. No Phil Rizzuto* and others. On the other hand, Met broadcaster Bob Murphy is in there. As for Skip, I lean towards NOT YET on this HOF.

*Note that Rizzuto WAS inducted for his baseball skills.

I grew up listening to Murphy, Lindsey Nelson, and Ralph Kiner calling Mets games. I don't agree with Murphy getting in, but I do agree with Lindsey Nelson. If Bob Murphy gets in, then maybe Skip should.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Scoring Point]

According to the Harris polls, the Braves had a seven year stretch of indeed being the most popular team in baseball going into the 1999 season.

"The Atlanta Braves are America. s favorite baseball team for the seventh year in a row, followed by the Yankees and the Cubs. The first three places in this annual Harris Poll on baseball are unchanged since last year."

This year, Atlanta is the number 2 most popular team. Just because the fans in Atlanta were not great for a couple of years does not mean that the national fanbase is no the largest.

Sorry, but I see this as just one more reflection that the Braves have had the entire Southeast to themselves. No other MLB franchise in the last 40+ years has enjoyed such a lack of competition for fans within its own region. Yeah, they now have the Marlins and Rays to contend with, arguably the two least popular/supported franchises in the league.

On a more basic level, the notion that the Braves enjoy broad, nationwide popularity just doesn't pass the common sense test. How many people do you see wearing Braves caps (vs. Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Cards to name a few) in Northeast, Midwest or West Coast metro areas? How many stores do you see that feature Braves paraphenalia?

[Scoring Point]

I am confused over the thread question.

Do you mean some sort of nationally-based Broadcasting Hall of Fame?

As for COOPERSTOWN, no broadcaster (unless previously a HOF player) is ever "inducted." Instead, usually one recipient a year can get the Ford Frick Award. Previous recipients include Mel Allen, Red Barber, Vin Scully, Jack Buck, Harry Caray, and Ernie Harwell. No Phil Rizzuto* and others. On the other hand, Met broadcaster Bob Murphy is in there. As for Skip, I lean towards NOT YET on this HOF.

*Note that Rizzuto WAS inducted for his baseball skills.

I grew up listening to Murphy, Lindsey Nelson, and Ralph Kiner calling Mets games. I don't agree with Murphy getting in, but I do agree with Lindsey Nelson. If Bob Murphy gets in, then maybe Skip should.

Cheers,
Lavabe

I don't really know the answer to your first question above, but I can say that my arguments on this were based on my perception that Earl Jam and others were essentially claiming that Skip Caray was on the same level as an announcer as his father and the other genuine legends you list above (Allen, Barber, Scully, Buck and Harwell). And I find that notion kind of ludicrous, for reasons that I have tried to lay out in this thread and the original one on Skip.

I would agree that Murphy is not in this class either. Lindsay Nelson is a bit of a tweener in my view, at least from a strictly baseball standpoint.

[2535Miles]

On a more basic level, the notion that the Braves enjoy broad, nationwide popularity just doesn't pass the common sense test. How many people do you see wearing Braves caps (vs. Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Cards to name a few) in Northeast, Midwest or West Coast metro areas? How many stores do you see that feature Braves paraphenalia?

I don't think the Braves enjoy broad, nationwide popularity but the "common sense" evidence you present doesn't do much to support your case.

Come see the Braves play in San Diego, you'll get about a 60/40 split in the stands. I don't see very many caps in LA other than Dodgers caps, but I'm pretty sure LA has a diverse fanbase. I've also never seen a sports/memorabilia store carry more merchandise from out of market teams than they do for their home team.

[jma4life]

Even if it is true that the Braves don't have to compete, the facts are that the Braves were the most popular team during that time period. You can look up individual state stats if you want. You can count the number of hats that the Braves sell in each state. You can look at all the measures you want to use to fit your definition.

I'll just keep it simple and say that the team with the most nationwide fans is America's team.

[Scoring Point]

Didn't mean to imply featuring ahead of the local team, but in a secondary but still prominent fashion. I think the Yankees and Red Sox and, to a lesser extent, Cards, Cubs and maybe Dodgers, do often enjoy this sort of treatment from a merchandising standpoint. Not the Braves, though.

[Matches]

On a more basic level, the notion that the Braves enjoy broad, nationwide popularity just doesn't pass the common sense test. How many people do you see wearing Braves caps (vs. Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Cards to name a few) in Northeast, Midwest or West Coast metro areas? How many stores do you see that feature Braves paraphenalia?

I think you've got to define the time period you're discussing. Right now - I agree with you - the Braves' appeal is regional.

In the 80's and early 90's, though, it was a different story. For a long time, the Braves were the only MLB team regularly on TV. (The Cubs were on WGN but it was not carried in as many places as WTBS.) In those days the team did have a national following, even though it stunk until the early 90's.

[Lavabe]

I don't really know the answer to your first question above, but I can say that my arguments on this were based on my perception that Earl Jam and others were essentially claiming that Skip Caray was on the same level as an announcer as his father and the other genuine legends you list above (Allen, Barber, Scully, Buck and Harwell). And I find that notion kind of ludicrous, for reasons that I have tried to lay out in this thread and the original one on Skip.

I would agree that Murphy is not in this class either. Lindsay Nelson is a bit of a tweener in my view, at least from a strictly baseball standpoint.

Technically, Skip is in neither the National Association of Sportscasters and Sportswriters Hall of Fame nor the American Sportscasters Association HOF. I don't see him making either one, given the names in there already.

Agreed on Lindsey Nelson.

Historical note: Allen served as an MLB voice for appx. 26 years. Skip served as the Braves' voice for 32 years.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Scoring Point]

Technically, Skip is in neither the National Association of Sportscasters and Sportswriters Hall of Fame nor the American Sportscasters Association HOF. I don't see him making either one, given the names in there already.

Agreed on Lindsey Nelson.

Historical note: Allen served as an MLB voice for appx. 26 years. Skip served as the Braves' voice for 32 years.

Cheers,
Lavabe

FWIW, I knew Mel Allen primarily as the voice of "This Week in Baseball", which was a great show and resource in the per-cable, pre-Sportscenter days, much like the great NFL Films shows of yore.

And I knew Lindsay Nelson primarily from his work in college football, namely the Cotton Bowl and the truncated Notre Dame game rebroadcasts on Sundays.

[Scoring Point]

I think you've got to define the time period you're discussing. Right now - I agree with you - the Braves' appeal is regional.

In the 80's and early 90's, though, it was a different story. For a long time, the Braves were the only MLB team regularly on TV. (The Cubs were on WGN but it was not carried in as many places as WTBS.) In those days the team did have a national following, even though it stunk until the early 90's.

With regard to your second point, the Braves may have been on more often than other teams during the 80s/early 90s, but I don't think you can say they were the only MLB team regularly on TV. I grew up in Cincinnati, and most of the Reds' away games were televised as far back as the early 70s. I don't think this was unique, either.

It is a hard thing to prove, to be sure, but I honestly don't believe the Braves - even in their 90s heyday - ever made a big dent with fans in areas that already had a local franchise. Areas that don't / didn't have an obvious local/regional franchise to follow are arguably a different story, though.