I would imagine that the ACC office also had a discussion with Mr. Hess. It probably involved some stern words on not being a jack wagon and embarrassing the league.
At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.
And make no mistake...they are out to get you.
However, I was surprised that Googs and Corchiani didn't put up more of a fight when asked to leave.
It would be like asking Laettner to leave CIS...or Jordan to leave the Dean Dome. If I was them, I would've replied, "Are you kidding me? This is my house. You leave!"
unfortunately, i would have refused to leave...i would have made them carry me out...
Yeah, I lost a lot of respect for Dykes after this as well.
Perhaps this will be enough to finally get Hess removed. As I've noted before, he's an embarrASSment to the referee's craft. I don't think that he's biased - notice that every school's fans have the same opinion of him. Surely the league can find someone else willing to make $500 an hour reffing games who would do a better, more consistent job.
Is there a published rotation of who will get what game, or is it only announced a few days in advance?
Have the ACC tourney refs been chosen/assigned?
Not published, but regular season assignments are known well in advance, with alternates earmarked. It is my understanding that ACC Tourney ref candidates are graded throughout the season and final selections are made long enough before the Tourney so that travel schedules, etc. can be managed. There is sufficient time that exceptions/replacements can be made, but this is usually not a last minute deal. Performance grades are cumulatively understood, so that the refs have a sense that they will be working the ACC Tourney or be a candidate in another Conference. College refs are generally independent contractors, and not employees of the respective conferences.
I am not an expert here. If anyone has an additional or different understanding, please advise.
This post brought back a long-dormant memory. I was at that game and remember just how bad that call was. (Though the memory of Phil dunking over Alonzo probably was taken up all my brain space from the '89 tournament).
Here's the thing - there is no question that Hess knew he was throwing out Corchiani and Gugliotta. He was sending a message. and since the ACC refuses to do anything about it, they are sending another message. That message is "We don't give 2 cents that our officials are becoming a punchline."
I don't think that's very fair. They made a statement, and we don't know if there were further reprimands between the conference and hess... like "get your act together and quit being a tugboat"...things that probably wouldn't be made public. The ACC publicly said he didn't follow protocol...He didn't screw up anything to do with the actual game....so i don't think a suspension is warranted, if that's what your calling for. He called for two guys to be removed from the game. The league said he should have alerted stadium services or whomever instead of the cops. In the case of stadium people, at least they could make their case that they weren't being disruptive...more so than could one for cops...
I will say one thing, I highly doubt the league will stand for this if it becomes pattern with hess. I certainly hope the crazies give him everything they got next time he comes to cameron...
During our halftime tonight, Dykes said that Gugliotta and Corchiani statements towards Hess were "You're having a bad game. You're making too many mistakes."
Sounds again like a pretty good cheer for the Crazies. Although they'd NEVER get away with it....:cool:
I think Hess was way out of line with this based on all the evidence we have to go on at this point. Given who the two fans were, unless they are 1. Drunk and obnoxious, 2. Using bad Profanity, or 3. Were making personal threats, then dude, you have to ignore it and move on. I just see that as Hess having a very bad case of Rabbit Ears and insecurity, along with a bad case of power trip.
I wish Hess and Jamie Luckey would be shown the door. Both are terrible imo.
I disagree - strongly. An official ejecting someone sitting in the stands from a game is an extreme event and requires, imho 1) a clear explanation from the official, and 2) a clear violation that justifies taking such a drastic measure. And if neither of those things are present, the the league needs to 1) discipline the official and 2) do it publicly.
This is NOT a blown call, or something on the court, or a missed judgement or a rule during the game. This is beyond that. It is so rare that it requires explanation, from both the officials and the league.
Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just another controversial call by an official. (and I have long believed that all leagues would be better off with some public statements/acknowlegements when they discipline their officials, but that's a topic for another discussion).
Why does it need to be public? When you screw up at your job, does your boss announce it to the media? At most the league owes an apology to the two guys for Hess' actions. There is no reason for that to be public.
The ACC owes the Athletics department at NCSU an explanation for why an ACC official treated a state fan the way he did, and they owe an apology to the fans. For all we know, those two things have been delivered. They owe you and the rest of the general public nothing. We have the benefit of hearing from fans around exactly what was said. All the league has is the word of Debbie Yow and Mr. Hess. If Karl said the fans were being disturbing, then what is the league to do? say "no they were not... SUSPENSION for you"...of course not...If they made it public, he might even have a case for suing the league.
For all the leauge knows, all Karl did wrong was not go through the right channels to get the fan ejected. They can't prove that the fans didn't say something profane or what not. They conceded that Hess didn't take the correct action in the given situation. There's not much else they can do.
Now as I mentioned, its likely there was a conversation between the league and hess about what happened, and there was probably some sort of "don't be an idiot, karl" in that conversation. I don't think the league would be too pleased if this were a weekly occurrence.
It's a lot different when two police offices ask you to leave. What were they supposed to do? Get physical? Get arrested? With both of their young daughters right there?
Both men have been around the block long enough to know much more noise would be made leaving quietly than causing a scene which would just prove Hess was correct and they were unruly.
Even if there was no cussing I can see how it happened from Karl's perspective. It's one thing to get heckled by a faceless crowd or some drunk student. Hess knows who these guys are, and they know Hess. It's a bit more personal. I would be curious if Hess had warned the two to pipe down.
Having said that, the best remedy is for Karl to take a little vacation and let the stress go. Take a week off (voluntarily or through ACC office scheduling), go to the beach, and then come back the same miserable SOB -- er, come back nice and rested for the home stretch.
Private insults and mistakes deserve private apologies. Public insults and mistakes deserve public apologies. The issue isn't whether he made his mistake while doing his job, but whether that mistake in judgement was done in a private setting or in a public one. If Hess did nothing wrong he has nothing to apologize for. But if an apology is in order it needs to be public. Not because we deserve it - we deserve nothing - but because the wrong he committed against the two was done in public (on a televised) stage. If he made an error in judgement he did so in a way as to embarass two people in the most public of forums. That is why the explanation and apology should also be done in the open. Not much good comes from things done in secret.
Again, if he did nothing wrong he should refuse to apologize at all. But if he did he should be honorable enough to admit it publicly since the offense took place in public. What our employer requires of us, and what we choose to do, can and should be two different things. We can always go beyond what is required - and when we do it speaks to our character.
Any discipline by the ACC toward Hess should, in my opinion, be made public. Even though Corch and Googs probably didnt pay for their seats, how would you have felt if
you had been the one thrown out after paying good money for a ticket.
I don't exactly remember what the seat license says on the back of the ticket, but it probably does not give the event holder carte blanche to throw a person out, and in this case
it wasn't the event holder but the ref. Probably Corch and Googs will not pursue it, but if it was me and I had paid good money for a ticket, Hess, Clougherty, Swofford, and others would
be raising their right hand in a public forum explaining themselves.
Wouldnt the resutling media circus be fun!
I didn't read OPK's "understanding-Karl-Hess" comment to mean he believed Hess had a longstanding beef with these players.
Rather, innocent, non-profane criticism from folks who know the game and played the game at a very high level probably burns Hess's ears more than a blistering, profane criticism from Joe Fan.
espn certainly made their apology public regarding the tasteless Jeremy Lin headline...
I'm not a particularly big Teddy V. fan, mostly b/c I think he's full of himself and has too much of an ego on the floor. That said, the NCAA thinks highly enough of him to have him refereeing late into March many years. I'm 99% sure he the '10 title game verse Butler, and thought he was pretty solid in that game, actually.
Al Featherston offers his perspective on the Wolfpack Dilemma:
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=43618
Here's a couple of snippets:
Quote:
Wow … it was a bad week to be an N.C. State fan.
Quote:
The ACC’s initial response – criticizing Hess only for not following proper protocol – is ludicrously inadequate. Unless there is more evidence that we have not seen, he should be suspended for his bad judgment – if not retired.
I have been saying for years that Hess is horrible. The fact that you can say his name and all ACC basketball fans knows him is the problem. We have a running joke in my house that for any game he is officiating how long it takes before he gets his name mentioned or has a video review....usually takes less than 6-7 mins of game time.
But right now, after seeing him called "Rabbit Ears" by Corchiani and Googs...the only mental image I have is an arena full of students/fans wearing those headbands with rabbit ears on them....hahahahahahahaa FYI...they are currently on sale in the $1 bins at your local Target store....perfect timing with Easter approaching.
That would be a classic sight.
ARo24
no ACC fan wants to see Hess officiating their game, because they know he will affect the game some how. might be in their favor, but equal chance it will not.
gots to go!!
That's fair. I think it still boils down to the fact that it's hess' word against Debbie Yow. The book stipulates (as the ACC pointed out) that it is up to the judgement of the official if someone needs to be tossed. If Hess told the ACC "I thought they were being excessive" then the ACC has no choice but to trust him. The ACC league people weren't there. There weren't cameras picking up what the 2 guys said all game.
Reminds me of the line from a few good men, "It's not what I believe, but what I can prove." The league may have every reason to believe that Hess was out of line in tossing the guys, but they can't prove it. And reprimanding an employee/contractor for something you can't prove happened is just singing out for a lawsuit.
FWIW - The NC State Athletics Department on Sunday morning reached out to members of the 1989 ACC Regular Season Championship team (which includes Googs and Corch) and asked them if they could make to the UNC game to be accept the inaugural "Wolfpack Unlimited" award for refusing to accept the status quo.
Googs and Corch are both members of that team.
Say what you want, at least Debbie Yow understands there are limits to what she can say on the record but that there are also lots of other ways to express our feelings. No word on whether or not Karl Hess was invited.
It should be the refs' job to *not* be noticed. I think that's how you can say that a ref is good or not. It seems in this day that we have too many refs that want to be part of the action. And people now almost expect it-which shouldn't happen. I'm not sure how often refs get in-season reviews-if it's after every game or every few games or whatever, but I think the powers that be need to do a better job reminding referees that their job is to call the game as the rules dictate.
NCSU did not win the "1989 ACC Championship". That honor went to unc. Unfortunate, but true. I'm slightly embarassed the front page makes this mistake.
The Pack did win the 1989 ACC regular-season championship, however. Or, if you wish, they finished first during the regular season. But they were not ACC champions that year.
My thinking is that the ref is there to enforce the rules of the game, not to police the fans. That should be the job of the arena staff. Hess probably has set himself up for far worse badgering by fans now because now the fans know that:
a; he hears them and
b; they can get into his head...
He would have been much better off to have ignored Tom and Chris or at least quitely asked that a stadium official go and warn them to calm down. Hess is going to be hearing a lot more heckling now than he would have IMO. Just another example of a poor judgement call on his part.
My understanding was that typically, there are ACC representatives at all games. Does anyone know if this is still true? I'm not familiar with where those seats would be in the RBC Center, so don't know if they would have been close enough to tell what was going on.
In any case, Googs is, in fact, "excessively" tall, so Hess has ironclad logic on his side.
Here's a direct quote from Adam Gold's blog: "First, it should be known that Karl Hess is one of the best, if not the best, officials in the Atlantic Coast Conference -- if not all of college basketball."
Yeah, I know - it IS Adam Gold, after all.
Link: http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/10755429/
Agreed. Hess is one of the few refs that I have specifically noticed making horrible calls in games and in general over reacting to situations on court. This only supports that fact that he is one of the worst refs in the game. And not just for Duke, he makes bad calls both ways. Horrible, horrible ref IMO.