More info on UNC academic scandal

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Originally Posted by DukeBlueDevil

For me, it's that game and the 91 & 92 documentary. But what is the halftime show you're talking about? I didn't get to see the game live, owing to the fact that I don't have ESPN.

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Halftime was hilarious. Hubert was trying to do a normal, serious assessment as to what adjustments the losing team needed to make to get back into the game in the second half. Jay, Knight, and the rest balled up their papers and laughed, joking that the game was over shortly after it started. It made for great comedy. I still hate that Ginyard hit the 3 at the halftime buzzer to cut it from 30 to 27. I so wanted Duke to be up 30 at the half.

If you have never seen the halftime, find a copy of the game that has it. Well worth the trouble.

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Originally Posted by MulletMan

No way people in State College were saying this about Paterno for the last 30 years.

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They probably were.

Nothing in this life is sure thing, but the possibility of K allowing a known child predator access to his program for 11 years or more is probably along the lines of 10,000,000,000,000,000 to 1.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/...467000-in.html


add butch's salary...don't forget....they paid him...

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Originally Posted by moonpie23

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/...467000-in.html


add butch's salary...don't forget....they paid him...

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Hey they should have, he got them to the Independance Bowl!! And only had to start and SBI investigation to do it!!! I say money well spent... he could have been great if it weren't for those pesky NCAA rules and laws.

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Originally Posted by moonpie23

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/...467000-in.html


add butch's salary...don't forget....they paid him...

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Your tax dollars at work right here in North Kackylacky.

UNC-Cheated, Cal Tech put on probation. Someone has to pay for UNC's lack of academic standards.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-...97--ncaab.html

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The academic-oriented Division III school received a public reprimand, three years of probation and a 2012-13 postseason ban in men's basketball and 11 other sports for using 30 ineligible student-athletes the past four years.

At issue is Caltech's unique academic policy allowing students to shop for courses during a three-week period each quarter before cementing their class schedules. Since many students weren't registered for all the classes they attended during that period, that meant under NCAA rules they were not considered full-time students when they took the field.

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The idea of Caltech fielding teams full of academically ineligible players is almost laughable considering the school's course load and monumentally high academic standards are often the biggest reasons the athletic department struggles. The baseball team has lost 237 consecutive games. The water polo team snapped a nine-year losing streak last year. And the men's basketball team went 310 conference games without a win, a 26-year streak that mercifully ended with a one-point win over Occidental College last February.

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This Article

Pat Forde pulls no punches in this article, but to me, the most damning words comes from a couple of UNC professors quoted in the article. A very good read, and shows that the basketball team may get dragged deeper into this muck than Ol Roy may wish.

From professor Sue Estroff:

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"It's demoralizing," said professor of social medicine Sue Estroff, a former UNC faculty chair and 30-year teaching veteran at the school. "It's dumbfounding. It's embarrassing. It's maddening. What else can I say? It's not what anybody wanted. It belongs to all of us, and you can't put it in just one place. It's impossible to defend, nor should we try."

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From professor Jay Smith:

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"Of course it's academic fraud," Smith wrote in an email. "And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible, making plausible 'progress toward the degree.' I don't blame the athletes – and that's important to make clear. Many of us feel this way. It's not the athletes' fault that they're often being shepherded through a bogus course of study, and are also made to pay the piper if they fall short of some measure invented by the NCAA.

"It's the system that's corrupt, and it's the adults who benefit from the system – starting with school administrators and faculty – who have to have the gumption to live up to their moral obligations and say enough is enough."

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This thing appears to be far from over.

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Originally Posted by PackMan97

UNC-Cheated, Cal Tech put on probation. Someone has to pay for UNC's lack of academic standards.

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And the men's basketball team went 310 conference games without a win, a 26-year streak that mercifully ended with a one-point win over Occidental College last February.

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So, does Cal Tech have to vacate their win over Occidental?

The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...

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The question hanging out there now is how deeply Carolina's sacred cow, basketball, gets dragged into the mud.

Three percent of the students taking suspicious AFAM courses were basketball players – certainly a lower number than their football counterparts, but they also make up a much smaller percentage of the student population. Coach Roy Williams has declared that the academic scandal is not a basketball issue, but a university issue. But N&O investigative reporter Dan Kane made mention on his blog this summer of a two-year-old Indianapolis Star story on academics and basketball that now has greater resonance today.

The article, on the clustering of players in certain majors, noted that a whopping seven players from UNC's 2005 national championship team graduated with degrees in African and Afro-American Studies. The Star quoted star player Sean May as saying he dropped a communications major and moved to Afro-American Studies after leaving for the NBA to get his degree faster.

May told the Star that AFAM offered "more independent electives, independent study. I could take a lot of classes during the season. Communications, I had to be there in the actual classroom. We just made sure all the classes I had to take, I could take during the summer."

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-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

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Originally Posted by ForkFondler

So, does Cal Tech have to vacate their win over Occidental?

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No. No ineligible players played in that game.

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Originally Posted by JasonEvans

The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...



-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

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Knowing how much you love poker Jason, I find it fitting to state that the "Stakes just got raised" no?

-Mark "Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" Newton_14

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Originally Posted by Newton_14

From professor Jay Smith: It's not the athletes' fault that they're often being shepherded through a bogus course of study, and are also made to pay the piper if they fall short of some measure invented by the NCAA.

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I don't know that I agree completely with professor Smith. If I'm a student and I have 5 classes and one of them I don't attend or do any real work to earn any credit yet I get a grade and credit, I know that class isn't on the up and up. Should the adults at UNC@CH be blamed more than the students? Yes. The students are not blameless in their cheating. Also, I don't really appreciate the way he tries to plant the seed of NCAA issues to deflect away from UNC@CH cheating.

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Originally Posted by elvis14

I don't know that I agree completely with professor Smith. If I'm a student and I have 5 classes and one of them I don't attend or do any real work to earn any credit yet I get a grade and credit, I know that class isn't on the up and up. Should the adults at UNC@CH be blamed more than the students? Yes. The students are not blameless in their cheating. Also, I don't really appreciate the way he tries to plant the seed of NCAA issues to deflect away from UNC@CH cheating.

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I agree with you 100% there. The student-athlete absolutely has accountability there. No question. The other professor pulled no punches. The Smith guy was tough about the fraud, but then fell into the carolina way of getting defensive, which they have done from the beginning on this.

I don't believe UNC will ever gain back respect here until they stop defending the acts, stop minimizing the acts, and stand up and say "This is wrong, we are going to fix it, and insure it never happens again". No qualifiers, no excuses, just full acceptance. I am not holding my breath though.

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Originally Posted by JasonEvans

The part of the Forde article that has Carolina fans really worried is...



-Jason "well, that just smells bad in light of what we now know" Evans

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be still my heart....this is looking like there could be an actual connection made....does anyone know if the NCAA has concluded their investigation?

I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.

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Originally Posted by gumbomoop

I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.

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That strikes me as a professor who will soon be enjoying a change of scenery.

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Originally Posted by Newton_14

Knowing how much you love poker Jason, I find it fitting to state that the "Stakes just got raised" no?

-Mark "Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" Newton_14

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http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...mage&FORM=IGRE

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Originally Posted by gumbomoop

I have posted several times that I'm waiting for the UNC faculty, individually or collectively, to speak out and condemn what happened. So I want to acknowledge these 2 UNC profs who have commented quite strongly.

I don't see Prof. Smith's comments as any weaker than Prof. Estroff's. For instance, Prof. Smith says: "Of course it's academic fraud. And it's a form of fraud that was designed (by whom we can't say yet) to keep athletes eligible." Further down the article, Smith is quoted again: "To me the worst damage has come, and continues to come, from the university's defensive and less-than-forthcoming reaction to the entire story. The university very much looks like it's trying to hide something. An objective outsider could reach no other conclusion."

I don't read in these words either an attempt to deflect things away from UNC-cheating or a shift to any "Carolina Way" obfuscation. Quite the contrary, Smith's words seem very forceful, specifically condemning cheating the clear purpose of which was to help athletes, and specifically blasting university administrators for covering up. Finally, the words, "by whom we can't say yet," suggest that Smith himself wonders whether the fraud-conspirator circle goes beyond the AFAM chairman and assistant. That strikes me as neither deflection nor obfuscation, but a call for more digging.

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I spent part of my professional life as an administrator in a large university's registrar's office. Be assurred that someone in that office at UNC noticed and questioned what was going on in the AFAM department. The "fraud-conspirator circle" is definitely larger than just the department.

For example, the history of the course scheduling in AFAM would be a red flag during a reaccreditation audit. The registrar's office personnel would have had someone "higher up" sign off on all of this.

I really don't understand how no one in administration at UNC, or in NCAA enforcement circles, did not find suspicious that all seven of the graduating players from a National Championship Basketball team had the same major. Really? Hansbrough took Swahili for three years to what end? I can't even imagine the odds of them choosing the same field of study. They had to be directed or encouraged to sign up for it.

Clearly the basketball team knew of this situation. The attitude of the athletic department must have been completely dismissive...Blanchard's tone in this one liner suggests an above-the-rules attitude.

"Otto, the head of the Drake Group, said her concern with clustering is that it raises questions about whether athletes are being directed to a path of least academic resistance.

"I'm fascinated at the longevity of North Carolina's clustering," Otto said. "It's unbelievable." Lennon of the NCAA declined to comment, saying it's a campus issue.

John Blanchard, senior associate athletic director at North Carolina, said it's reasonable that people in a peer group might gravitate to the same major. He said clustering "just doesn't bother us here."

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ayers-graduate

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Originally Posted by Newton_14

... Having to vacate either or both of those Natty's would cause a meltdown the likes of which we've never seen" ...

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Once a bakery has retroactively crowned a sports champion, it is loath to re-visit the decision. To do so messes with the integrity of the historical record.