MBB: UNC-Chapel Hill 88, Duke 70, Post-Game Thread

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03-03-2012, 10:45 PM
dukelifer

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapei

I think Gottlieb had a good point. We were ranked #3 going into tonight's game, but I don't think we were the third best team in the country. Top 10, probably yes. But I think Gottlieb would agree to that. We have been a largely successful but very flawed (defense) team this year, which isn't the end of the world considering we lost two all-Americans and the #1 NBA pick who never really had a chance at Duke. This was objectively a rebuilding year of sorts, but Rivers turned out to be good enough to mask that at times.

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out.
03-03-2012, 10:47 PM
Kfanarmy

guards

I didn't record the game, but can someone tell me what the Duke guards were doing when Carolina shot the ball? If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball...how many times did a guard from Carolina get a rebound from starting out on the three point line...were Duke's players heading to the offensive end immediately when the ball went up? standing watching? Seriously I'm not trying to be insulting, I really don't understand HOW they let the Carolina guards run freely to the basket to get rebounds...
03-03-2012, 10:47 PM
Edouble

Quote:

Originally Posted by UrinalCake

Last year after the ACC tournament Bob Knight did an interview where he talked about the dramatic turnaround from Duke losing in Chapel Hill to dominating them a week later in the ACCT final. He said that UNC had spent a whole week having everyone tell them how great they were, while Duke had spent the week mad as hell and wanting to prove they were better than that. Here's hoping history repeats itself.

I think it did... tonight. UNC lost on their home court to us in the worst way possible. Hearing the little blip from Roy's post-game after the early February game, it seems pretty clear that he probably motivated/shamed them pretty hard to get them ready for the game tonight. The expressions and their demeanor following that game makes me think of a puppy with its tail between its legs. Tonight the puppy came in like a pit bull looking for Duke's throat.

Coach K is the master motivator, but I'm not sure our team could have been more motivated that the 'Heels were tonight. From a psychological standpoint, in a weird way, Austin's shot just gave them the edge towards getting amped up to play us. They felt that they were wronged... they've been sitting on that for 3 weeks, and we didn't come out from the tip ready for it.

The shots we missed at the start of the contest, and our ability to somehow "turn it on" in the 2nd half when we no longer had anything to lose point me towards the mental character of this team. A macro example is Mason's play over the last 3-4 games... where has he been? Was he sick? Did he break up with his girlfriend? Whatever it was, did it magically get better in the locker room at halftime?

I think this is an extremely talented bunch of Blue Devils. If Miles plays like he played tonight (and I do believe he is capable of playing that way every night) and Mason plays the we we know that he is capable of... that is a scary frontcourt. Austin is Austin--deadly, polished, lethal, and a winner. With that nucleus, plus Seth, Quinn, Tyler, and Ryan, I think we are more than capable of giving anyone a very difficult game. To me, this team just needs to bulk up mentally. The pieces are there. We lack in determination, heart, whatever you want to call it. We showed it in the 2nd half, but in the 1st, it did not match what Carolina brought to the table. It hurts to say this, but in all fairness, UNC probably deserved to win more than we did. I think we can have a great post-season if we want to.
03-03-2012, 10:48 PM
mapei

Quote:

Originally Posted by dukelifer

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out.

Absolutely. And so are about a dozen teams. The team that gets and stays hot at the right time wins a single-elimination tournament.
03-03-2012, 10:49 PM
FerryFor50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edouble

I think it did... tonight. UNC lost on their home court to us in the worst way possible. Hearing the little blip from Roy's post-game after the early February game, it seems pretty clear that he probably motivated/shamed them pretty hard to get them ready for the game tonight. The expressions and their demeanor following that game makes me think of a puppy with its tail between its legs. Tonight the puppy came in like a pit bull looking for Duke's throat.

Coach K is the master motivator, but I'm not sure our team could have been more motivated that the 'Heels were tonight. From a psychological standpoint, in a weird way, Austin's shot just gave them the edge towards getting amped up to play us. They felt that they were wronged... they've been sitting on that for 3 weeks, and we didn't come out from the tip ready for it.

The shots we missed at the start of the contest, and our ability to somehow "turn it on" in the 2nd half when we no longer had anything to lose point me towards the mental character of this team. A macro example is Mason's play over the last 3-4 games... where has he been? Was he sick? Did he break up with his girlfriend? Whatever it was, did it magically get better in the locker room at halftime?

I think this is an extremely talented bunch of Blue Devils. If Miles plays like he played tonight (and I do believe he is capable of playing that way every night) and Mason plays the we we know that he is capable of... that is a scary frontcourt. Austin is Austin--deadly, polished, lethal, and a winner. With that nucleus, plus Seth, Quinn, Tyler, and Ryan, I think we are more than capable of giving anyone a very difficult game. To me, this team just needs to bulk up mentally. The pieces are there. We lack in determination, heart, whatever you want to call it. We showed it in the 2nd half, but in the 1st, it did not match what Carolina brought to the table. It hurts to say this, but in all fairness, UNC probably deserved to win more than we did. I think we can have a great post-season if we want to.

Agreed.

To add, we also sat on that 3 the last few weeks. And according to Kendall Marshall's twitter feed, playing the replay of the shot before the game didn't help de-motivate UNC.
03-03-2012, 10:58 PM
throatybeard

Well, the good news is Kellie Jolly Harper is still rather attractive.

Wait, sorry, wrong thread.
03-03-2012, 10:58 PM
duke09hms

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachJ10

To paraphrase Herm Edwards "To win the game, you must make shots".

In the first half, we simply just missed a ton of wide open shots. Despite what Dickie V was saying...this was two evenly matched teams (both good at offense, both not so good at defense). They had John Henson hitting 17 foot jumpers...we had missed layups. Sigh.

The Dukies will come back from this.

Actually, Duke is great at offense and bad at defense. UNC is very good on offense and very good on defense. Our great offense could not bail out our bad defense tonight.
03-03-2012, 10:59 PM
gumbomoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfanarmy

I didn't record the game, but can someone tell me what the Duke guards were doing when Carolina shot the ball? If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball...how many times did a guard from Carolina get a rebound from starting out on the three point line...were Duke's players heading to the offensive end immediately when the ball went up? standing watching? Seriously I'm not trying to be insulting, I really don't understand HOW they let the Carolina guards run freely to the basket to get rebounds...

I have posted a couple of posts on this issue. It was my strong impression during the game that our undersized guards failed to do something that undersized players must - must - do: block out. I have wondered whether - and do think that - Seth, Andre, Austin, and Quinn [Tyler is probably the exception here] do not instinctively block out.

Among my season-long interests has been something K said pretty early on about "attention to detail." I am so curious - obsessively so - about whether this detail has been given attention during practice. If our team is rebound-challenged [especially by, uh, certain teams], one would think this detail would in fact have been emphasized. If it has been, it hasn't taken. I did record the game and intend to review it. I will be surprised if our perimeter players blocked out much at all. UNC got several easy buckets as our perimeter guys watched ... UNC guys play basketball.

If this sounds snarky, so be it. I prefer to think of it as an example of K's oft-cited constructively critical truth telling.
03-03-2012, 11:01 PM
throatybeard

Quote:

Originally Posted by dukelifer

Duke does not match up well with UNC. UNC is not deep and an ACC tourney could be tough for them. Still, I am surprised how well UNC has managed to play after losing Strickland. I think Roy deserves some credit for getting his guys to play down the stretch. Duke is a good but not a great team. At the beginning of the season if you had told me Duke would have finished one game behind UNC and beat them once- I think I would have taken it. The loss tonight says that Duke may not have what it takes to win the NCAA crown- but they have had a very good year. And if you do not think this game is important - every Duke NCAA championship team has beaten UNC in the last regular season game and every UNC NCAA championship team has beaten Duke in the last regular season game. This game is a measure of how well a team can handle the big moment at the end of the year. We will see if UNC can ride this win.

There's some post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning right there.
03-03-2012, 11:03 PM
duke09hms

Quote:

Originally Posted by dairedevil

Congratulations to unc for playing up to expectations and capturing the season title. Sorry that a good effort by Miles resulted in such a sad ending on his Senior night. Good effort by the team in the second half to put the team in position for a comeback (again), even though it didn't work. I hate to see people say that they have no heart. I've never seen this team give up, no matter how big a hole they've dug themselves, they'll try to climb out of it.

What a night shooting by the tarheels. It seemed that they would never miss, no matter what type of shot. It never seems to work that way for Duke - yeah, they may go on a run, somebody might get really hot from 3, but I can't remember a game where the TEAM was scoring effortlessly. Maybe preseason or an early season cupcake? Often, it seems that they really have to work, work, work to get anything going, and this year has been especially hard.

On to the ACC and NCAA tourneys...

That's the magic of having a PG that can create. They have Kendall Marshall, we have Tyler Thornton/Seth Curry/Quinn Cook. Kendall is going to be one of the best all-time PGs in ACC history.

We need to work a LOT harder to score.
03-03-2012, 11:05 PM
Greg_Newton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfanarmy

If The Plums play H&Z even, how do the guards give up so many rebounds...that isn't about height...if Duke players are simply between the Carolina guards and the basket, Henson and Zeller are left to fight the plums for the ball

I don't know, though... it's one thing for a player with a 4-6", 30+ pound disadvantage to plant himself between his man and the basket when his man is a stationary post player. It's another thing when his man is a wing who is running off screens, cutting around, and making you face guard him when he runs the baseline. You've got to have perfect awareness and timing with a little luck.

They can do better than they did tonight, I just think our scheme really asks our 6'2-6'4 guys to play beyond themselves against certain types of teams.
03-03-2012, 11:06 PM
devildeac

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke09hms

That's the magic of having a PG that can create. They have Kendall Marshall, we have Tyler Thornton/Seth Curry/Quinn Cook. Kendall is going to be one of the best all-time PGs in ACC history.

We need to work a LOT harder to score.

And no Nolan to shut Marshall down like he did last year in the ACCT final.
03-03-2012, 11:06 PM
hurleyfor3

Quote:

Originally Posted by throatybeard

Well, the good news is Kellie Jolly Harper is still rather attractive.

Wait, sorry, wrong thread.

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:

Don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts something about missing lots of 3s and playing lousy defense don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts whew thank god that's over.
03-03-2012, 11:08 PM
duke09hms

Quote:

Originally Posted by billoz

Obviously, we had some important guests in the house tonight.

A question for someone smarter than I on this subject... What kind of impact would a game like this have on a potential recruit?

Optimistically, I hope they would think - "wow I could easily get a lot of PT on this roster."
03-03-2012, 11:12 PM
Kfanarmy

I'd just as soon

Quote:

Originally Posted by dukelifer

But Duke is certainly good enough to get to a Final Four- a task that can be made much easier when the supposed best teams start to fall. It is all about match-ups and team health from here on out.

I'd just as soon see Duke beat the "best teams." Thinking that way seems a bit unsportsmanlike or something.
03-03-2012, 11:17 PM
FerryFor50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfanarmy

I'd just as soon see Duke beat the "best teams." Thinking that way seems a bit unsportsmanlike or something.

Like Kansas, UNC and Michigan St?

Yea, been there, done that.

This team is capable of beating pretty much any team, provided they show up.
03-03-2012, 11:18 PM
gumbomoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg_Newton

I don't know, though... it's one thing for a player with a 4-6", 30+ pound disadvantage to plant himself between his man and the basket when his man is a stationary post player. It's another thing when his man is a wing who is running off screens, cutting around, and making you face guard him when he runs the baseline. You've got to have perfect awareness and timing with a little luck.

They can do better than they did tonight, I just think our scheme really asks our 6'2-6'4 guys to play beyond themselves against certain types of teams.

As several of my posts in this thread will attest, I have a different point of view. I concede that you make a plausible argument, and realize it's related to the issue of the absence of that classic Duke 6'6" wing defender.

I'm inclined to emphasize your acknowledgement that "They can do better than they did tonight." My view is that we've not seen much of a fair test of your point about "playing beyond themselves," for it's not clear to me that our guys have been outmuscled so much as outhustled. I don't like saying this; it's not a good thing to say about one's guys. It would be better if you're right.

But I am yet unwilling to concede that it takes "perfect awareness" to block out. I think it takes awareness.
03-03-2012, 11:31 PM
weezie

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurleyfor3

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:

He might have been even more transfixed by the spray on pants and 6" metal spike heels.
Yikes.
03-03-2012, 11:31 PM
MCFinARL

Quote:

Originally Posted by uh_no

In short, no.

You can't force things that aren't there....what looks like "open" to viewers may not be open for the players on the court. I think more than anything, K trusts the players on the court to make the best decisions. If tyler or austin or whoever else can't get it to dawkins effectivley, then forcing it is probably only going to do more harm than good.

Okay--I will agree you can't force things that aren't there, and I will grant you that, in his limited time on the court, there were not a lot of times when Andre seemed to be wide open and his teammates didn't pass to him. But that only answers half of my question. I didn't see the team run any plays to get Andre open, which they might have done had the coaches suggested it. And since the other outside shooters clearly didn't have it tonight, even when they were wide open (arguably with the exception of Tyler, who did hit half of his 3-point attempts), and they weren't playing spectacular defense that would be sacrificed to put Andre in, one possible coaching choice might have been to give Andre a few more minutes and run a couple of plays for him. If he doesn't hit, fine, take him back out. But what did they have to lose at that point?

I'm not a basketball coach, and obviously I have no credentials to question Coach K (and even if I thought I did I wouldn't try it on DBR, where I would be dissed and dismissed immediately). He has his reasons for playing the people he plays, I'm sure. I just wish sometimes that I understood better what they were.
03-03-2012, 11:42 PM
throatybeard

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurleyfor3

What was going through Chris Collins' mind during the end-of-the-first-half interview:

Don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts something about missing lots of 3s and playing lousy defense don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts don't stare at her breasts whew thank god that's over.

Post of the millennium.

It's an occupational hazard. Except also there's her face to contend with.

I'm sorry we didn't give her a better game.

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