MBB: Duke 74, FSU 66 - Post-Game Thread

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Originally Posted by cniedringhaus

History has shown that one of the worst things a team can do is peak too soon. Has FSU peaked too soon and started a decline for the remainder of the year? I think so. They are talented and capable, but do they have time and the ability to regroup and be a factor in ACC tournament or NCAA tournament time? Unlikely.

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I really hope you're joking. One game, in which they played very well by the way, dooms their "post-season prospects"? Really? When they beat us a few weeks ago, did that "put a fork in" our post-season prospects? It was one game. The only single game that dooms anybody's post-season prospects is when a team loses in the NCAA tournament.

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Originally Posted by MCFinARL

While I'm on this subject, Austin Rivers said something after the game last night that I thought was interesting--Andre's value comes not only from his own shooting but from his ability to keep defenses honest (those weren't Austin's exact words, but that's pretty much what he meant). If they have to guard him, that makes more opportunities for Austin, and for Seth and others. In some games where we don't see Andre scoring a lot it, he seems pretty well covered most of the time. If he is fully occupying a defender, maybe that is the role he needs to play in that sequence no matter how hard he is trying to get open on that particular play.

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Yes! I have been saying this for some time. Andre is incredibly valuable on offense, even when he doesn't take a single shot. This is why, even when Andre was slumping earlier in the season, it was a bad call when people hoped Quinn and Michael would take Andre's minutes.

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Originally Posted by MCFinARL

My "favorite" Dickie V. moment was when he announced that UNC would be cheering for Florida State. Eventually the other guy had to point out that, actually, it was in UNC's interest for Duke to win this game, odd though that might seem.

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Well, in this case, I think Vitale was right. Whether or not it was in UNC's interests, you know they were cheering for FSU. It's not even a close case.

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Originally Posted by UrinalCake

Worst call of all was at the end of the first half when the defender jumped on top of Seth's back. At the very least that should have been a non-shooting foul. Just because the half is almost over doesn't mean you don't blow the whistle.

As for Seth's travel, I didn't really see a good replay. I thought he lost control of the ball before batting it over to Andre. At any rate, he was fouled about five times by the "trapping" defense prior to that so I figured it should balance it out.

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Sorry, but that play at the half was totally all Seth jumping way to his left to try and get underneath the guy, twirl, and shoot. I watched it on replay and could only laugh at Seth's naughtiness.

I'm eager to see the toughness displayed last night carry forward. Others may feel the same way I do, but say they are anxious about it.

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

Well, in this case, I think Vitale was right. Whether or not it was in UNC's interests, you know they were cheering for FSU. It's not even a close case.

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This may suggest something about the basic intelligence of UNC folks, ;) but you are probably right. I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

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Originally Posted by MCFinARL

This may suggest something about the basic intelligence of UNC folks, ;) but you are probably right. I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

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Over the years, there have been many times where a UNC win would help Duke in the standings, etc. I still cannot bring myself to root for them under any circumstance.


Whether that is a flaw, or a virtue, I will leave to each of you.

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Originally Posted by MCFinARL

I have no doubt the UNC fans were cheering for FSU, just thought the team might see the value in a Duke win, since that would put their shot at a regular season ACC championship in their own hands--but maybe even there the rivalry runs too deep.

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In their own hands, yes, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Don't forget that FSU has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ dangerous in-state rival Miami before their regular season is over. And UNC has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ arch-rival Duke, in a game where anything can happen. Duke has two lower-tier teams and then a rivalry game at home on senior night. Even from a logical standpoint, you could make a decent argument that a UNC fan should have wanted Duke to get hung with an L last night.

The blue-tinted lenses seem to have been of exceptional strength last night.

Sure, there were some missed plays in the game, and Valentine was even responsible for a few. But anyone who thinks he wasn't the strongest official on the floor last night is letting their distaste for him or his style get in the way of accurate analysis. He'd be the first to admit that he shouldn't have counted that bucket late in the game. That wasn't his only decision of the game (it wasn't even his only mistake), but that play and a widespread distaste for his mannerisms have been allowed to completely overshadow some superb refereeing on his part. Each of his partners swallowed the whistle in some big moments yesterday--on plays that were demanding of a whistle--and every time Valentine was even remotely positioned to do so, he came to the rescue.

Just to provide one example of the bias present in this thread: Valentine has been derided for being so concerned with showing off following Seth's offensive foul, that he failed to correctly report the number (30), and instead reported Andre's (20). The mistake was easily caught when folks realized Andre was on the bench. But why is anyone so sure that the mistake was Valentine's? Occasionally, scorers make mistakes. Is it conceivable that Valentine gave an accurate signal that was misread at the table? Or that the scorer read the signal correctly and simply marked it incorrectly in the scorebook? Or that the scoreboard operator misread the signal from Valentine or misheard the oral confirmation from the scorer? Maybe the PA announcer got it wrong for some reason? Each of these things happens every once in a while, and the fact that such possibilities would never even be considered says more about the observer than about Valentine and what he did or didn't do there.

"Valentine should be fired."

Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

In their own hands, yes, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Don't forget that FSU has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ dangerous in-state rival Miami before their regular season is over. And UNC has to play @ nationally ranked Virginia and @ arch-rival Duke, in a game where anything can happen. Duke has two lower-tier teams and then a rivalry game at home on senior night. Even from a logical standpoint, you could make a decent argument that a UNC fan should have wanted Duke to get hung with an L last night.

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Yes, I see your point. While the result might be that FSU would win the regular season championship (or maybe share the championship with UNC, assuming both won out--no given for either team--but get the first seed in the ACC tournament), it might be better for UNC, looking ahead to NCAA seeding, etc., for Duke to lose.

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

I wanted to send kudos to BluDvlsN1 for correctly suggesting that our big men might get in foul trouble this game. I didn't really see it coming that way, but he/she was certainly correct.

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Kedsy, thank you,but,wholly unnecessary.
What I was originally referring to, was the ill advised fouls that ultimately limit the ability to work on the oppositions bigs in the paint when necessary. (short version)

What I saw last night, didn't qualify as that, (I'm about to rewatch the game),I thought MP1&2 and Ryan played great. I won't attempt to put a "label" on what caused the early foul concerns, but it doesn't appear to come under the heading of "ill advised", more likely "beyond player control".

I really enjoyed what I saw last night, across the board, the team always answered and that bodes well going forward.
I had posted in previous weeks that while Seth had been struggling a bit from outside, he had been getting to the hoop more via cuts, passes, and off the dribble, personally, I think it was/is a blessing in disquise.

Here is why, Seth, is now as apt to go inside rather than just pull up with a 3, it makes him much more versatile and complements Austin and Andre. He's a pure shooter, with a shooter's mentality (and this is good), because his shot has been coming back recently and last night 3 was key, I really believe the we will see his 3 evidence itself positively down the stretch run.

IMHO

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Originally Posted by porkpa

Far be it from me to question Coach K. However here goes. With our three bigs in serious foul trouble, I kept wondering why we didn't just try a little zone, if for no other reason to see what sort of effect it might have. I know Coack K hates zone. I also know that he has albeit very rarely occasionally tried it. Just musing.

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I don't know that going zone would help when all of our bigs are in foul trouble. If just one guy is in foul trouble then a zone might be a way to protect him, but even then you still have to guard your guy once he gets the ball.

I think our strategy was to pressure the guards and prevent the bigs from getting the ball, which we did a phenomenal job of. The announcers kept asking why FSU was choosing not to go inside, but our defense had a lot to do with it. And I think playing zone would make those interior passes easier.

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Originally Posted by BluDvlsN1

What I saw last night, didn't qualify as that, (I'm about to rewatch the game),I thought MP1&2 and Ryan played great. I won't attempt to put a "label" on what caused the early foul concerns, but it doesn't appear to come under the heading of "ill advised", more likely "beyond player control".

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Mason's first foul was dumb, reaching out and grabbing the guard after releasing on a hedge. What's amazing is that he almost did the exact same thing on the next possession, but thankfully didn't get called for it that time. It would have given him two fouls in like the first three minutes of the game.

Other than those plays, I agree that the bigs avoided the silly fouls.

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Originally Posted by COYS

I submit "healthy" and "healthful" to this list. While it is important to eat healthy foods because eating fruits and vegetables that are in poor health would probably not be good for one's stomach, most people should really concentrate on eating healthful foods that will provide good nourishment.

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Isn't being redundant redundance even when done on porpoise? If so, there's a department that fixes that.;)

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Originally Posted by Delaware

Teddy V was absolutely brutal tonight. He does love the spotlight, but I can't for the life of me understand why. He is wrong so often, not sure why you would want to point it out so blatantly!

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Often wrong, but never in doubt. All in all a poorly officiated game. Plenty of calls that went Duke's way such as Seth's travel, but most of the blatant ones, such as the step on foot trip and rolling Austin out of bounds, were right in front of the official.

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Originally Posted by 77devil

Often wrong, but never in doubt. All in all a poorly officiated game. Plenty of calls that went Duke's way such as Seth's travel, but most of the blatant ones, such as the step on foot trip and rolling Austin out of bounds, were right in front of the official.

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Read any teams message board after a game and you will learn that they just got hosed by the refs. I'm sure the FSU board -if they even have one for hoops - was replete with examples.

Our fans do it too but the only difference is that, in their minds, they are right. Oh wait, that really isn't a difference...

Oh yeah and Duke is also the team that annoucers are really biased against but everyone else is just paranoid;)

One of the keys of the game, in my opinion, was how well we would perform in the turnover battle. My man to watch was Seth Curry, who had 6 turnovers in the previous game and had to do better at FSU for us to win. We lost the TO battle 11 to 8, however, Seth only had one of those 11 and he handled the ball a lot throughout the game. With that kind of ball security against a top notch and aggressive defensive team, Seth becomes a force on the offensive end, since he can drive and dish or score and has a pull up game for mid range scoring along with the ability to hit the three.

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Originally Posted by OldPhiKap

Over the years, there have been many times where a UNC win would help Duke in the standings, etc. I still cannot bring myself to root for them under any circumstance.


Whether that is a flaw, or a virtue, I will leave to each of you.

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Well, it may be flaw for you, but I've always considered it one of my virtues to root against UNC no matter what! :D

Yeah, if I'm a UNC fan I root for FSU to win yesterday and then lose one of their remaining games. That's more likely than Duke losing before playing UNC (not saying Duke is definitely going to beat VT and Wake, but it's a safer bet that FSU will lose one).

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Originally Posted by Newton_14

(Sorry for the horrible grammar there Throaty)

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I'm as far from membership in the Prescriptive Grammar Police as is humanly possible.

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Originally Posted by lotusland

Read any teams message board after a game and you will learn that they just got hosed by the refs. I'm sure the FSU board -if they even have one for hoops - was replete with examples.

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I just read the postgame thread on Tomahawk Nation (disclaimer: I have no idea what the 'best' FSU blog is but TN is their SB Nation site, which is a good go-to for a credible blog for pretty much every team other than Duke, as they don't link the DBR to SBN, which confuses me but this parenthetical has gone on long enough...) and there are about 3 posts about officiating, all relating to Curry's travel, which admittedly was one of the biggest blown calls I've ever seen. >95% of the thread basically says that FSU has no chance when teams bomb it like we did from three and credit to Duke for being on point for this game.

There are also a few mentions of how many of the fouls the Plumlees accumulated were not induced by 'anything FSU did' (re: the FSU fans subliminally realize we got hosed by the refs).

Conclusion: we REALLY got hosed by the refs, since the other team's fans aren't even complaining about the refs!

Edit: Just did a CTRL+F on their in-game thread (>500 comments), which revealed 5 instances of complaining about the refs. Two instances were then shot down by other posters. New conclusion: these guys don't know how to complain like basketball fans.

It's interesting how obvious it is when Seth is on vs. off his game; it's like you can literally tell whether he's having a good game by just watching one play.

When he gets low with the ball and shifts his weight forward, looking for a crease to dart through, he's actually an extremely effective penetrator and creator. When he's got his head up and weight back, guarding the ball, he's almost a liability. When he launches the ball early in his release with a high release angle (most important part), it seems like it goes in 90% of the time. When he guides the ball a little more and doesn't put that big arc on it, it's just bad. I'm not sure if I can remember a player for whom the outcome of his shots were more obvious the minute he released them.