Dude, Harrison Barnes. Please.Quote:
Originally Posted by UrinalCake
Printable View
Dude, Harrison Barnes. Please.Quote:
Originally Posted by UrinalCake
While Barnes was very over-hyped he still had an outstanding 2 year career.Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave
Jabari narrowed his list to 5 five and we are still in!!! Uk, Unc, Uconn all dropped (as well as Gtown and Kansas)
"Outstanding"? We must have different definitions of the word. His last year, I would say he might have been the third best player on his team behind Marshall, Zeller and may have been the fourth best depending on how you feel about Henson. He was a very solid and very good player. Outstanding?? Without Marshall he was barely all ACC material and I think I am being generous...Quote:
Originally Posted by JNort
If you define outstanding by the awards he was "given" by an adoring press corps, then I would agree, he had an outstanding two years, but I think that a lot of people would say that he was given those awards more based on hype than actual performance.
Don't get me wrong, he was a solid player, but he was also a big disappointment to the UNC faithful, that is if you can find one that will give you an honest answer to that question...
Hi everyone,
I am not a gator fan at all and actually pull against them in all sports. My parents went to Duke, I've been going to Duke games since I was 6 or 7 years old and I went to Vandy and Northwestern for my degrees. I do want to say in regard to Jabari Parker's list that UF has the finest academic reputation of any school in Florida. They have the highest admission standards. I hope Jabari comes to Duke but I do think Florida being on his list is not the weirdest thing in the world. They have great history in their basketball program and a fine academic reputation in the region (although not nationally as high as Duke or Stanford's of course). Just my 2 cents.
Having grown up in FL, I would say at the absolute minimum, folks who attended UM would have something to say about that comment. It's a heck of a school and actually more highly regarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickjyd
Worth noting that DBR did not call out Florida for its academics. They merely said that the others on the list made more sense to them. But, seeing as you brought up academics, I figured I would further defend your point --Quote:
Originally Posted by nickjyd
Florida - USN&WR ranking - #54, acceptance rate - 42%, student-faculty ratio 21:1
Stanford - USN&WR ranking - #6, acceptance rate - 7%, student-faculty ratio 5:1
Duke - USN&WR ranking - #8, acceptance rate - 14%, student-faculty ratio 7:1
BYU - USN&WR ranking - #68, acceptance rate - 63%, student-faculty ratio 21:1
Mich St. - USN&WR ranking - #72, acceptance rate - 73%, student-faculty ratio 16:1
I know the criteria can be debated, but a solid case can be made that Florida is the #3 academic school on Jabari's list and is in no way an academic outlier. I know that you can get a fine education at any of these schools but if academics are an important part of the equation, Duke and Stanford stick out in a very big way.
Just for the sake of comparison, the other truly competitive basketball programs* that excel at academics as well would be--
Notre Dame - USN&WR ranking - #17, acceptance rate - 24%, student-faculty ratio 11:1
Vanderbilt - USN&WR ranking - #17, acceptance rate - 16%, student-faculty ratio 8:1
Georgetown - USN&WR ranking - #21, acceptance rate - 18%, student-faculty ratio 12:1
California - USN&WR ranking - #21, acceptance rate - 21%, student-faculty ratio 17:1
UCLA - USN&WR ranking - #24, acceptance rate - 25%, student-faculty ratio 17:1
So. Cal. (USC) - USN&WR ranking - #24, acceptance rate - 23%, student-faculty ratio 9:1
Virginia - USN&WR ranking - #24, acceptance rate - 33%, student-faculty ratio 16:1
Wake (#27), Michigan (#29), UNC (#30), BC (#31), and Ga Tech (#36) are the only other major nation basketball programs in the top 40.
* - I am excluding Penn, Princeton, Cornell, and Harvard from the Ivy league, each of which has been good enough in basketball in the past decade or so to be legit NCAA tournament teams but, due to scholarship restrictions, none of which can assemble a roster that could make the Final Four.
-Jason "you can see why Notre Dame picked the ACC... our conference and the Pac 10/12/14/16?? are in a whole different area code from the rest of major sports when it comes to academics" Evans
Fair enough. I guess I just proceed with caution nowadays with regard to prep phenoms due to the massive influx of hyped high school stars over the last decade (beginning primarily with LeBron) and how many of them never seem to be as big as originally advertised. (LeBron, of course, being one of the major exceptions. That is an understatement, to be sure.)Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonEvans
Guys like Wagner, Telfair, Tamir Goodman (SI dubbed Goodman the "Jewish Jordan"; I still have that issue somewhere), OJ Mayo (while he's been a very productive scorer at certain points in his NBA career, I think it is apparent that he will never become the Hall-of-Famer that he was believed to be as an eighth-grader at Rose Hill Academy in Kentucky), Kwame Brown, and even Tyson Chandler (even though he's been a legitimate NBA role guy and superb rebounder at certain points of his career, he was featured in SI and SLAM magazine as the next "basketball god" at Dominguez High in Cali).
Color me cynical, but I just don't believe much of anything anymore. But I am rooting for Jabari, and really hope he chooses Duke, because with all of the hype surrounding him, the kid seems to have his priorities in perspective and would be the perfect kind of player to learn from and grow under Coach K.
I am with you Cameron. The Over Hype of the latest "phenom" has, seemingly, become a cottage industry. There are very few Chamberlains, Robertsons, Jabbars, Magics, Jordans or LaBrons in the history of the game. Many good players, few super stars. IMO, these kids are done an injustice when such lofty expectations are placed on them. The need to excell exceeds the need to succeed. It appears, in many instances, the burden cannot be carried and the expectations met. Maybe a little restraint by the writers and pundits is in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron
RE: Harrison Barnes as over-hyped.
I admit to having real mixed-feelings about Barnes. He certainly never lived up to expectations. Normally, this is where I side with the player, something along the lines of "Brian Zoubek never claimed to be the next Gminski, so it's not fair to compare him to Gminski because of something Vitale said."
But Barnes did bring a lot of this on himself, giving himself a nickname, the over-the-top-Skype announcement, talking like a CEO about his brand. Be careful what you wish for.
That said, he certainly shouldn't be on any short list of most disappointing players ever. He was good enough to be ACC Rookie of the Year, an All-ACC player, an NBA lottery pick. Compare that career with that of Jerod Ward, the consensus number one player in the class of 1994.
You're probably saying "Jerod who" about this time, which proves my point. But Ward went to Michigan before Twitter, Facebook, message boards and Skype, so his burden of expectations was lower.
It's the world we've created. We seem to have a once-in-a-generation talent every year or so and the hype machine just chews up everything in its path. Jabari Parker seems like a bright, grounded kid, so he's quite aware of this. If he were afraid of the hype machine, he wouldn't have Duke, Michigan State and Florida on his short list.
You guys are right to be skeptical of the hype for young kids. Players grow up at different rates -- I know our own Gene Banks was one of the most dominant high school players who ever lived -- he was that far ahead of his peers. But it was a matter of him maturing early. He got better, but his peers closed the gap. He was "merely" a very, very good college player. He was a servicable pro.
There was a kid from the same era named Wayne McCoy who was touted as the greatest big man ever when he was in the ninth grade. By the time he got to St. John's, he was a marginal player ... the highlight of his career was leading the Johnnies to an upset of a crippled Duke team on Black Sunday in 1979.
Sometimes it's injuries -- Randy Livingston could have been one of the great guards of his generation when he came out in the early 90s ... before he was crippled by bad knees. Greg Oden was everything he was touted to be before his string of injuries ruined his career. I still insist that healthy, he becomes a more valuable NBA player than his classmate, Kevin Durant.
Sometimes they do get it right -- I remember how skeptical I was about the LeBron James hype until I got to see him play. Ralph Sampson ... Lew Alcindor ... Bill Walton lived up to the hype. Even Tom McMillen, who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as a prep player, was a three-year All-American at Maryland. Danny Ferry was the No. 1 player in his class and he turned out pretty good.
The problem is that you have to pick a No. 1 guy every year. But not all No. 1's are the same ... just as comparing "top 10" lists over the years should remind us that some years are loaded with talent and some are not. But you have to pick a top 10 every year. Sometimes the No. 10 player for one year is better than the No. 2-3 player another year. I can see in hindsight making Harrison Barnes the No. 1 guy in his prep class, but it was a fairly weak (or in the case of Kyrie, the real best player in the class, a late-developing) class. But like Josh McRoberts, the No. 1 guy in his class, Barnes became just a good, not a great colleeg player.
On the other hand, I was outraged when the prep guys jumped Anthony Davis over Austin Rivers as the No. 1 guy in his classs ... but in hindsight, they got it right. Austin was an outstanding college player (better than Barnes!) , but Davis had a better freshman year.
So you guys are right to withhold judgement on claims that Jabari Parker (or, if he re-classifies, Andrew Wuggins) is the next great thing in basketball. But hold onto the idea that there may be some substance there. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
I've read that Jabari is scheduled to visit Duke on Oct 27 (I beleive). Am I correct in assuming that Jabari will be at Duke for most of the weekend (like most OVs) as opposed to just one day?
whoa....with all due respect mr sumner, that was ALL hypeQuote:
Originally Posted by jimsumner
i think he and joe forte will have a WHOLE lot in common...
Ah, Joe Forte. Whatever happened to that guy? I can say with a straight face that I have seen Joe and John Crispin play more recently. A sad little tale.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonpie23
Yes and yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Class of '94
I thought so. Thanks for the confirmation. Maybe this bodes well for Duke (in that Duke is one of Jabari's first Ovs) since it hasn't gone well for us with recruits (like Barnes) the last few times Duke has been the last OV for them. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Native
I hope it's doesn't come down to proximity to Chicago because Mich ST has a strong advantage there to go along with Tom Izzo being the HC.
I am by no means a recruiting guru, but my guess would be that geography isn't going to have a significant impact on Parker's decision. If that were going to be a deciding factor, I think Kentucky and Kansas, and maybe even DePaul, would still be on the short list. Of course, as a grounded young man who doesn't appear to pay his own hype any attention, nor to actively seek it out, and who states that he wants to choose a school that will provide just as much enrichment off the court as on it, perhaps Kentucky was eliminated for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Class of '94
If Parker were considering staying closer to Chicago, then I don't think Stanford would have made the cut. I think Stanford is on the list because Parker is really considering going to play basketball and furthering his education in Palo Alto. Parker comes across as the type of kid who is putting a great deal of critical thought into this decision and wants to ensure that he is making the best decision possible. As others have stated here, props to Johnny Dawkins for doing work and convincing Parker that Stanford can offer the kid the best of both worlds.
How was Barnes being named ACC Rookie of the Year in 2011 even partially a result of hype? Irving was the best freshman in the country that season but he missed too many games to be a credible candidate for the award. Barnes averaged 15.7 points and 5.8 rebounds per game for the ACC's regular-season champions as a freshman.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonpie23
The other members of the all-freshman team that year were Travis McKie, Kendall Marshall, Terrell Stoglin and C.J. Leslie. Keep in mind that Marshall came off the bench behind Larry Drew for half the season. Barnes was the clear winner on merit.
Joseph Forte was a very, very good college basketball player. He was a complete wipe-out at the next level, more because of personal issues than anything else. I seriously doubt that we see Barnes wearing a Scooby-Do shirt on the sidelines, let alone being arrested on gun and drug charges.
Lack of NBA success doesn't necessarily negate earlier success at the college level. Randolph Childress, Rodney Monroe and Trajan Langdon didn't last very long in the NBA but that doesn't mean they weren't exceptional college players.
I understand the animosity towards Barnes and the reasons for it. I've alluded to some of those reasons earlier in the thread. But he actually is a pretty talented basketball player.
Yes we must have different definitions. He averaged 17 and 6 in his first two years and that was him being the 3rd option on offense! He won ACC roty fair and square imo because nobody else stood out as much (Save for Kyrie but he got hurt early on). He scored the most points by a freshmen in the ACC tourny since Ford back in the 70's! Then in the NCAA tourny he scored more than any frshmen Tarheel in school history. Also had the most points scored in one game by a freshmen in the ACC tourny. Both years he was there they finished 1st in the regular season of ACC play.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldnavy
Did he live up to the hype? LOL not even close! But to say his 2 year career was not outstanding seems to be a little biased. I may despise everything carolina but Barnes was a dang good player who happened to be on a tram with 2 of the best players in the country (Henson and Zeller and some may even say Marshall).
Outstanding, yet the third option on his team?Quote:
Originally Posted by JNort
Remember, only 5 play at a time. :)
Outstanding for a player who was primarily a scorer and shot 43% FG and 34.9% from 3-pt for his career?
Finished his career with a 4-game NCAA tourny run of less than 33% FG and 30% from 3-pt?
Uh, no. We need another adjective to better describe his college career.
I vote for over-rated.