Devil lawyers - is law a good field?

[blublood]

So I have been sort of toying with the notion of going to law school at my advanced age mostly because I'm sick of being at the mercy of our dysfunctional state legislature to allot money for my salary. My understanding from friends is that law is a lot like medicine in that you are pathetically underpaid for the first few years out and then gradually start to make gains.

Would this be a good idea for a second-career sort of move? Would it work if you have a family and really cannot be working 80 hours a week? My ideal goal would be to move into a rural area so it's not like I would need to battle for the very most prestigious clerkships and so forth - just enough competency to help people with wills, bankruptcies, and so forth.

Any thoughts? Is the market already oversaturated with people who have had the same idea?

[hurleyfor3]

Out of every 10 lawyers, seven hate their jobs and two are ambivalent.

This may or may not be true, but the guy who told me that was a senior partner at a 80-person law firm, one of the top three firms in a large metro area. He was the "Cheatham" in Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

I'm not a lawyer, and that's pretty much why.

[BlueDevilBaby]

I enjoyed law school, but it is a lot of work. I am a practicing tax attorney - although it affords me a comfortable life, it is a grind and not something to go into on a whim. It is also costly. I am in my 14th and next-to-last year of paying off the loans. Also, if you plan to hang out your own shingle, you will be working 80 hours a week at first. I also think that, unless you know someone in your small town, it might be very slow going at first. However, there other things you can do with a law degree rather than practice law. Good luck with your decision.

[cato]

Out of every 10 [lawyers]employees, seven hate their jobs and two are ambivalent.


Fixed.

[2535Miles]

Kevin Lomax didn't seem to mind working for the Devil. But then he realized it was going to cost him his soul.

[hurleyfor3]

Fixed.

If you're insinuating the precentages are the same across all careers, I strongly disagree. My experience is quite a high percentage of people in science/research/engineering/IT fields enjoy their jobs, for example.

Anyway, if you're right, your still proving my point (thanks!) in that you're no likelier to find self-actualiztion there than anywhere else.

[Jeffrey]

I'm not a lawyer, and that's pretty much why.

Hi,

If you don't mind me asking, what profession did you choose instead? IMO, it's very important that, if at all possible, we do something we truly enjoy.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[Jeffrey]

Any thoughts?

Hi blublood,

Honestly, my first thought was that you're an amazing woman for even considering such a possibility when you're currently working full-time, a full-time mom, and a caring wife.

What were your favorite classes in school? What do you enjoy most about your current position?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[BlueDevilBaby]

^If I did something I truly enjoy, I'd have a doggy day care/dog walking business. I had a fleeting thought to open a business in my neighborhood, but of course that was after incurring mountains of debt to go to law school. Wouldn't you know it, someone opened such a business around the corner and it's thriving. I even use it for my dogs. Maybe after I retire.

[hurleyfor3]

Hi,

If you don't mind me asking, what profession did you choose instead? IMO, it's very important that, if at all possible, we do something we truly enjoy.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

I responded to this via PM. I'd prefer to keep this off the boards but am not blowing off this request.

[TillyGalore]

I responded to this via PM. I'd prefer to keep this off the boards but am not blowing off this request.

In case big brother is watching? ;)

[hurleyfor3]

In case big brother is watching? ;)

More like hundreds of little brothers. Given my career and enough other information I've freely passed out on these boards it becomes pretty easy to Google my identity.

[Cavlaw]

More like hundreds of little brothers. Given my career and enough other information I've freely passed out on these boards it becomes pretty easy to Google my identity.
I'm pretty sure anyone else in biglaw who is even remotely curious about who I am has found me by now or could with little effort. I've made my peace with it and the fact that I've shot my mouth off in enough places on the net that I won't ever be running for office. ;)

[TillyGalore]

More like hundreds of little brothers. Given my career and enough other information I've freely passed out on these boards it becomes pretty easy to Google my identity.

Are you that guy on the Ronco commercials? ;)

[phaedrus]

I think law school is an excellent idea if you'll be going to one where you can watch Duke play for free.

[cato]

If you're insinuating the precentages are the same across all careers, I strongly disagree. My experience is quite a high percentage of people in science/research/engineering/IT fields enjoy their jobs, for example.


That is not the sense I get from talking to people in a lot of engineering and IT jobs. I don't know enough about science and research, but I have certainly talked to my fair share of people who ditched those careers for others.

At any rate, my point is that job dissatisfaction is pretty high across the board. I'd guess that the lower down the autonomy rung you go, the higher the dissatisfaction. That might support your point regarding science and research jobs, I suppose.

Ultimately, you are correct in that I was generally supporting your point that lawyers are a disgruntled bunch.

[Cavlaw]

Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar.

I always liked that one.

[rasputin]

I have never regretted my career choice, although law school itself was certainly a grind. I've been practicing for 27 years. For me, it's not about money and never has been.

[DukeDude]

I'm an engineer, and while it pays well, I'd rather be doing something that required fewer hours and generated less stress. I am no good at writing or speaking though, so law is out.

[GDT]

So I have been sort of toying with the notion of going to law school at my advanced age...would this be a good idea for a second-career sort of move? Would it work if you have a family and really cannot be working 80 hours a week?

I went to law school at 36 after 10 years as an IT director. I have very little good to say about the experience, and even less good to say about job hunting in law. I'd be happy to explain more (like the things I wish I had asked before I decided to go) if you have any interest by PM.

[A-Tex Devil]

I really enjoyed law school -- but my law school was huge, so it was easy to find great people and stay away from the ones you want to stay away from. My strategy was to understand what grades I needed to get to have some flexibility job-wise, find a comfortable spot in the curve that got me to that point (top quarter to top third at my school, but it varies), and let the law review folks freak out about getting an occasional A-.

As for law -- I like it most of the time. It can certainly grind on you. I think if you are sweating out 80 hours a week hanging out your own shingle, there's something more rewarding there than 80 hours a week working for some mega lawfirm as a junior associate. Of course, typically, the pay is much much better in the latter.

I'm a corporate attorney so I am resigned to my fate as a big law attorney -- I typically love my clients, though, because they are small companies and the best at what they do.

But if you have any desire to be a trial attorney, something to think about: my friends from law school (I'm 4 years out) who decided to forego big law salaries to work for smaller, less well know, firms, work in the DA's office, be criminal defense attorneys, etc. have gotten much more real world experience, as a group, than my friends who are litigators at BIGLAW who often are still writing basic court filings and doing document review. Sure the BIGLAW folks are getting paid big bucks, but also getting little experience should they ever be forced to set out on their own.

[DevilAlumna]

If you're insinuating the precentages are the same across all careers, I strongly disagree. My experience is quite a high percentage of people in science/research/engineering/IT fields enjoy their jobs, for example.

That's my experience as well; and if there is substantial job dissatisfaction, it's not with the work that they're doing on a day to day basis, but things like managerial issues.

Also found a high level of satisfaction within the news organization that I worked for -- a bunch of news junkies who truly felt they were performing a public service, hanging out with like-minded news junkies. Of course, several of the more 'cub' reporters went on to law school; I wonder if they're substantially less happy these days.

[throatybeard]

I don't know anything about this, but this here's entertaining reading:

http://lawandletters.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-you-shouldnt-go-to-law-school.html

[dkbaseball]

Law school is a good experience if you're not gunning for law review and clerkships, and it's a very useful intellectual discipline to be exposed to. My sense is that being an associate in a large or medium size firm is a hellish experience generally to be avoided, and I can tell you from experience that a criminal defense practice has plenty of frustrations. But if you're aiming at a small town general practice, then I think there is a good chance of keeping reasonable hours and having a reasonably satisfactory working experience. Choose the community judiciously to make sure you can break in. Sometimes you'll find an older lawyer getting ready to retire who wants to turn over his practice to someone.

[blublood]

Awww, so you guys are telling me this isn't the magic bullet to solve each and every career woe? Darn it!! :)

As an aside, I am never, ever going to tell my son, "Son, just do what makes you happy." You don't want to do that. You want to go into a field that makes money. I know this is ridiculously materialistic and probably against my religion as well, but I am just so sick of struggling to make ends meet, worrying about our children's college, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, no job is going to completely free you from that (I mean, unless you're Miley Cyrus or something... or own an oil field, I guess), but there's got to be a better way.

GDT: Wow, sounds like we should talk, brother! :)

[Cavlaw]

I don't know anything about this, but this here's entertaining reading:

http://lawandletters.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-you-shouldnt-go-to-law-school.html
This is entirely accurate. In particular, see the quote from Cameron Stracher (who wrote the excellent book Double Billing, where this WSJ quote comes from):


The legal profession is really two professions: the elite lawyers and everyone else. Most of the former start out at big law firms. Many of the latter never find gainful legal employment. Instead, they work at jobs that might be characterized as "quasi-legal": paralegals, clerks, administrators, doing work for which they probably never needed a J.D.

I've struggled on how to express that, because I'm fortunate enough to be on the "elite" side of the spectrum and don't want to come across as terribly pompous in pointing out that it is a tiny fraction of the entire population of JDs. Even if you do get "the job", many of the criticisms in the article are accurate.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't know anything about this, but this here's entertaining reading:

http://lawandletters.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-you-shouldnt-go-to-law-school.html

Oddly, I find the practice to be very unlike that article. But I don't work for MEGALAW. I have a comfortable practice with comfortable partners in a fairly congenial local bar. True, I don't practice in NYC, DC, ATL, or such. But I am home every weekend except when I have a trial, and work normal hours. So while I'm sure there is truth to the description of the three categories listed, that is not exclusive by a long shot.

To answer the original question: law has many applications and there are all types of legal settings in which to practice or ply your trade. Law school teaches more than just legal principles -- it teaches a mental approach and discipline to the application of facts to some overarching construct.

And I also agree with someone above who said, in effect, that you shouldn't go to law school if you're not committed to it. The old saying is true: the first year they scare you to death, the second year they work you to death, and the third year they bore you to death.

[blublood]

You know, reading that article, I think almost all of that would apply to doctors as well. (minus maybe the high rates of major depressive disorder) Working with jerks? Check. Debt that you'll never get out from under? Check. Jerks as "clients"? Check. Jobs that suck? Sure, ask any surgical resident or intern at an inner-city clinic. Makes you into a bad person? I've heard this repeatedly from med school pals. Sucks away years and years of your life? Check, check, and check - notoriously so.

[dkbaseball]

the first year they scare you to death, the second year they work you to death, and the third year they bore you to death.

And somewhere in there the moral neutering takes place. Don't worry, it's painless. You won't even know you're having a procedure done. But every once in a while you may look down and cry out in terror: "Where's the rest of me? Where's my sense of right and wrong?":)

And don't worry either about that "work you to death" stuff. Law school is a breeze unless you're competing for top grades, which you would need only if you want to work for a good size firm or get a judicial clerkship or be a law professor. In that case you would be going up against some major league "iron butts," as Dick Nixon was referred to at Duke Law. If you're not playing that game though, passing law school courses is simple.

[Jeffrey]

As an aside, I am never, ever going to tell my son, "Son, just do what makes you happy." You don't want to do that. You want to go into a field that makes money. I know this is ridiculously materialistic and probably against my religion as well, but I am just so sick of struggling to make ends meet, worrying about our children's college, blah, blah, blah.

Hi blublood,

IMO, you'll end up making more money, over your career, doing something you enjoy than something you do not. And, in the end, you'll have a much better life along the way. After all, we only take this ride once.

I suspect Bill Gates truly loves technology and Warren Buffett truly enjoys a finance career. I doubt either would be as wealthy as they are, if they had gone into a career they did not enjoy.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[mpj96]

Oddly, I find the practice to be very unlike that article. But I don't work for MEGALAW. I have a comfortable practice with comfortable partners in a fairly congenial local bar. True, I don't practice in NYC, DC, ATL, or such. But I am home every weekend except when I have a trial, and work normal hours. So while I'm sure there is truth to the description of the three categories listed, that is not exclusive by a long shot.

To answer the original question: law has many applications and there are all types of legal settings in which to practice or ply your trade. Law school teaches more than just legal principles -- it teaches a mental approach and discipline to the application of facts to some overarching construct.

And I also agree with someone above who said, in effect, that you shouldn't go to law school if you're not committed to it. The old saying is true: the first year they scare you to death, the second year they work you to death, and the third year they bore you to death.


My experience leads me to fall in line with OldPhiKap and Jeffrey. For me, going from a big firm to a small firm was immediately more personally rewarding than working in a big firm. After a few years being in a small firm was also more financially rewarding compared to my peers who stayed in their big firm jobs in big cities. Like OPK I don't live in a major metropolitan area. I am also not a corporate atty and can understand why it would be hard to distinguish yourself as a corp. atty in a small firm.

Like Jeffrey I tend to think that if you do not like what you do you will probably not be great at it. That said, everyone can probably think of something they like to do but are not good at or could not make a living doing.

As for law school, I had a great time but did not worry too much about grades. I met a lot of fantastic people that I keep up with to this day. Law school did teach me to apply myself and to structure my thinking.

In my experience, the biggest knock on being a lawyer is that you will take other people's problems on as your own and you will spend an unbelievable amount of time worrying about / ruminating over your clients' concerns even when you are not at work. It is, however, a great discipline and even in small towns there is always plenty of work out there for good attys.

Residential real estate is a relatively family friendly practice area (not mine) where you can make a decent to great living in a small town without having to deal with late hours.

[OldPhiKap]

In my experience, the biggest knock on being a lawyer is that you will take other people's problems on as your own and you will spend an unbelievable amount of time worrying about / ruminating over your clients' concerns even when you are not at work.

Truer words have not been spoken.

[Cavlaw]

Truer words have not been spoken.
Especially with respect to pro bono clients.

[OldPhiKap]

Especially with respect to pro bono clients.

Oh, I worry about the paying ones too . . . .



But you are correct that. often, the folks with the biggest problems are those who can least afford to have big problems. When you can't pay your rent, EVERYTHING is a big problem too.

[BD80]

In my experience, the biggest knock on being a lawyer is that you will take other people's problems on as your own and you will spend an unbelievable amount of time worrying about / ruminating over your clients' concerns even when you are not at work.

In my experience the greatest drawback is being a slave to the billable hour. Anything I do in life is calculated in terms of how many hours I could be billing instead. The problem lessened when I left MegaLaw (even partners have that pressure), but it persists to some extent even in year 25 for me. Having a family complicates the issue, because you are torn between working on their behalf and being with them. It really caused me to trim everything but family and work (and Duke BB) from my schedule.

Practicing law is still my passion in life and I strongly recommend it. Maybe it is because I am an argumentative SOB and love the adversarial process.

Unfortunately, law is more of a business these days than a practice. Rainmaking and firm management are paramount. Further, there has been a loss of civility in the profession, a plethora of shysters willing to sell the reputations of all lawyers for several pieces of silver. Society as a whole used to be able to trust lawyers; now, some lawyers will say or do anything to win a case or even a motion, which has placed a tremendous drain on our judicial system. No longer can a judge or opposing counsel accept an unknown lawyer's representations without question. No longer can law suits presumed to be meritorious. The biggest legal whore in Michigan, Jeffrey Fieger, illegally contributed to John Edwards' campaign in a big way - specifically to support the fight against tort reform - that should illustrate the problem nicely.

Nothing in life is perfect. After 25 years, I am still practicing the profession; you'd think with what we get paid we'd have it perfect by now.

Good luck on your choice.

[Stray Gator]

I am a lawyer, nearing the end of my career, and I love it enough to say that I would do it all over again if given the chance. But I recognize that I have been fortunate.

I went to a reputable state law school (UF), so I had very little debt when I graduated. I had taken four years off to travel around the country working a variety of jobs after graduating from Duke, so I benefitted from a different perspective than most of my law school classmates--in essence, I was motivated by a firsthand understanding of what life would be like without a professional career, so I think I was able to focus and concentrate more effectively. In any event, I performed better in law school than I did as an undergrad. I was a law review editor, made Order of the Coif, etc. Perhaps most importantly, I found that I really liked how the law poses problems that require solutions which simultaneously involve intellectual challenges and practical considerations to achieve just results that comport with common sense.

My first job was as a law clerk to a justice of the Florida Supreme Court. Then he became chief justice, and at his request I stayed a second year to serve as his executive assistant. I had intended not to work at a large firm, but my law school roommate convinced me to join the largest firm in Florida. Like all associates, I worked long hours, but I had the opportunity to work alongside and learn from some of the finest lawyers in the country, including a former President of the ABA and Florida Bar, who became something of a mentor. I liked appellate practice, and the firm was very accommodating in giving me the chance to develop a niche in that area. After making partner and advancing to chair the appellate practice section, a change in firm management and direction prompted me to leave after 14 years. I then spent 8 years as executive director of a non-profit legal foundation, before returning to private practice with a small boutique firm for a couple of years. Finally, I ventured back into a large, international firm because I missed working on cutting edge legal issues. The firm I'm with now is a perfect fit--we do products liability defense, and about 90% of our work firmwide is litigation...for clients who almost never settle. So there's lots of exciting work for those of us who enjoy litigation. Best of all, though, the firm is midwestern-based, so the culture is the opposite of the major metropolitan firms--very laid back, team-oriented, family friendly.

Sorry for the lengthy history, but my point about whether a career in the law can be considered worthwhile is this: It depends. :D

If you enjoy solving problems that require a combination of creative thinking, mind reading, and people skills, the practice of law can be delightful. Yes, there are times when you must sacrifice and work long hours; but I think that's true for any professional. That is balanced by the freedom of a flexible schedule, and the financial security to enjoy the times when work slows down (once you learn not to worry about where the next billable hour is coming from). I've never taken many long vacations; but OTOH, I've never missed a major family event, a UF home football game or bowl trip, or a Duke Final Four appearance. In fact, though I live in Florida, I have season tickets for Duke basketball and usually am able to fly up for the majority of home games, at least during the conference schedule. Courts and clients are generally very amenable to rescheduling around important personal events.

Yes, you are likely to encounter a lot of egotistical jerks in the legal profession; and dealing with unfriendly (or occasionally underqualified) judges can sometimes be frustrating. But in my experience, the good people in the profession far outnumber the bad apples. And I want to emphasize that, contrary to some anecdotal reports and slanted articles, most of the lawyers and judges I've met are genuinely decent folks who want to do the right thing and who endeavor to conduct themselves in a way that earns them respect and a sense of pride in their work.

I could say much more, but I think the most ringing endorsement of the quality of life I have enjoyed in the law is the fact that my daughter, who had the chance to observe what it's like on a daily basis, has chosen to follow the same path. Stessing that there are trade-offs in every career or job, I've encouraged her to weigh the benefits and the downsides as objectively as possible to assess whether she can be satisfied with the net balance. Given the uncertainties of where the road will ultimately lead, and what twists and turns await, I think that's the best anyone can do.

[hamster]

First, a caveat. I am early enough on in my career to still be starry eyed about the whole thing.

One of the best things to know about being in law school or in the law is that many (if not most) of your law professors, the partners you work for, and the people that are very very competitive in law school (because they definitely exist, even at the 'nicer' law schools) are the type of people that really do only need 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night. They can sometimes be confused by anyone that actually does need more sleep.

This echoes what many people have already said, but law school can be an absolute blast if you are not the type who is aiming for an A+ in every class and want to be Chief Justice of SCOTUS someday. (Remember, the people you are competing against for that don't need sleep.) So if you can find an appropriate balance between working hard and having fun, it can go really well.

In that vein, I highly recommend working for a few years before hand. It will give you some pull to get into more and possibly better schools than you might otherwise have (not that this would be an issue, but it's definitely something to consider) and that gives you a lot more options on where to go. It will also help you to manage your time better, and it definitely helps with getting a job. You may also have a little more perspective that way.

One thing that no one has mentioned about Megalaw that I personally think is really really cool is the stuff some of the people you may get a chance to work with have done in their previous lives. There are definitely some not very nice people out there, to put it mildly, and there is definitely competitiveness. But when you are looking for advice on a tough project, and you are told 'go see so and so, they actually wrote those regs' or 'so and so helped draft that section of the ucc, they can probably help' that is so so cool.

Now having completely embarassed myself as a legal dork, I will go back to work now.

[OldPhiKap]

One thing that no one has mentioned about Megalaw that I personally think is really really cool is the stuff some of the people you may get a chance to work with have done in their previous lives. There are definitely some not very nice people out there, to put it mildly, and there is definitely competitiveness. But when you are looking for advice on a tough project, and you are told 'go see so and so, they actually wrote those regs' or 'so and so helped draft that section of the ucc, they can probably help' that is so so cool.

Just FYI -- you can find and work with a lot of those folks without working at MegaLaw.

From my perspective (commercial trial lawyer) I got much more in-court experience in a second-tier city than I ever would have gotten writing briefs and Shephardizing for others (remember when you had to go through the books to do that? Yikes!). One of my partners helped write the State's UCC revisions; one writes a current book on evidentiary rulings in the state; several are the primary counsel for nationally known companies. Nothing against MegaLaw -- it just wasn't for me. I make less money but have more time to spend it.

As I said in my first response, it really depends on what you are looking to do. There are opportunites of all shapes, sizes, and locations. Find what you like, and do it how you like. It'll all work out.

[blazindw]

I am a year out of law school, and I am looking for a full-time job right now. I love the law and really want to spend a long time in law (eventually moving into politics - POTUS in 2028?). Needless to say, the job market for those that are not the aforementioned "gunners" is really tight. I mean REALLY tight...well, at least here in DC. If you can get into something you really want to do, it can be really beneficial. You can also use your JD and not be an attorney - the skills you acquire in law school can be beneficial in many areas of business and education as well. In the end, you can probably use it to become better at whatever it is you do now.