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SoCalDukeFan
05-20-2008, 12:48 PM
What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

billybreen
05-20-2008, 12:56 PM
To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I can't define country music, but I know it when I hear it. When my ears are bleeding, that's country.

Master Shake
05-20-2008, 12:57 PM
What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

I too share a distaste for top 40 country. But your choice of Patsy Cline is intresting as she was a bit of a pop crossover. Also, have you listened to any old country lately (like on XM13): it certainly wasn't all Hank Williams back in the early 50s. He had huge hits, but he was still marginalized. Nashville has pushed its tame version of country for a long time now.

Shammrog
05-20-2008, 01:25 PM
To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I can't define country music, but I know it when I hear it. When my ears are bleeding, that's country.

Me too. Which leads me to the following question:

My wife was watching last night, and I found myself pondering the distinctive country "twang" in most country music.

Noting that most (e.g., British) accents disappear when singing, is this "twang" a DELIBERATE affectation, or just a natural carryover from the "Southern accent"???

(And, can a song be "country" without the twang?)

colchar
05-20-2008, 01:37 PM
What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

This kind of bugs me a bit. Not your post per se but the general attitude that new country somehow isn't country (although I will agree that a lot of it sucks as I really don't like bands like Lonestar). Many of the people I've met who claim to listen to 'real' country and get all pretentious about it are those who might listen to one act - Johhny Cash - basically because it has become cool and hip to do so (damn that movie). They couldn't name another country artist if their lives depended on it (note: am not including you in this category, I'm merely venting here).

The new country movement (defined as a combination of rock and country or country crossing over to rock) isn't new at all. Conway Twitty, who nobody could argue wasn't a true country artist, released a single in the 1950s that didn't sell all that well but the B-side of which got considerable airplay. Many people believed it was actually Elvis singing under a different name.

Crystal Gale, the younger sister of Loretta Lynn who can easily be deemed the Queen of country music, recorded a lot of crossover songs in the 1970s.

Hank Williams Jr., who is the son of someone who might be deemed the King of country music, started his career basically mimicking his Dad (largely through the influence of his Mom). He rebelled against that and went his own way which was to incorporate rock into his music. He had a lot of trouble getting airplay for a while but eventually became hugely popular.

And Dolly Parton, who nobody with any common sense can claim was not a 'real' country artist, also recorded a lot of crossover songs.

So the new country movement has been around for a lot longer than most people realize and was started by artists who were, in essence, country royalty (all of the acts mentioned above would qualify as country royalty).

Plus, many of the artists who play what might be considered new country are also the ones who are releasing other songs that are very traditional...I'm thinking here specifically of Carolyn Dawn Johnson. Listen to Head Over High Heels and it would be considered new country. But listen to Georgia and tell me that doesn't sound like something that coulda come out in 1970 and been a huge hit.

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

SoCalDukeFan
05-20-2008, 02:00 PM
This kind of bugs me a bit. Not your post per se but the general attitude that new country somehow isn't country (although I will agree that a lot of it sucks as I really don't like bands like Lonestar). Many of the people I've met who claim to listen to 'real' country and get all pretentious about it are those who might listen to one act - Johhny Cash - basically because it has become cool and hip to do so (damn that movie). They couldn't name another country artist if their lives depended on it (note: am not including you in this category, I'm merely venting here).

The new country movement (defined as a combination of rock and country or country crossing over to rock) isn't new at all. Conway Twitty, who nobody could argue wasn't a true country artist, released a single in the 1950s that didn't sell all that well but the B-side of which got considerable airplay. Many people believed it was actually Elvis singing under a different name.

Crystal Gale, the younger sister of Loretta Lynn who can easily be deemed the Queen of country music, recorded a lot of crossover songs in the 1970s.

Hank Williams Jr., who is the son of someone who might be deemed the King of country music, started his career basically mimicking his Dad (largely through the influence of his Mom). He rebelled against that and went his own way which was to incorporate rock into his music. He had a lot of trouble getting airplay for a while but eventually became hugely popular.

And Dolly Parton, who nobody with any common sense can claim was not a 'real' country artist, also recorded a lot of crossover songs.

So the new country movement has been around for a lot longer than most people realize and was started by artists who were, in essence, country royalty (all of the acts mentioned above would qualify as country royalty).

Plus, many of the artists who play what might be considered new country are also the ones who are releasing other songs that are very traditional...I'm thinking here specifically of Carolyn Dawn Johnson. Listen to Head Over High Heels and it would be considered new country. But listen to Georgia and tell me that doesn't sound like something that coulda come out in 1970 and been a huge hit.

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

I am not a traditionalist about this at all. I fully understand that country music is much more than a guy with a guitar and a twang.

However country music to me should show emotion and feeling. I can hear the lyrics. On the ACM show Underwood, Swift, and Rimes seemed to shouting rather than singing.

I loved "Blue", a song LeAnne Rimes did several years ago as a teenager. I did not like at all the song she did on the ACM awards. I loved Carrie Underwood singing "Make the World Go Away" but did not like "Last Name."
I saw her concert with Keith Urban in Anaheim. Most of the time she was screaming to top the band who was much too loud. Urban was great and they were great together for one duet with his band. I like her records much better than the live show and on TV, though she does look great.

So it is not the crossover that bothers me but it is that I can not hear the lyrics and the emotion seems to be energy expended to be heard above the band.

Colchar, did you watch the ACM show? If so, what did you think.

SoCal

colchar
05-20-2008, 02:14 PM
I am not a traditionalist about this at all. I fully understand that country music is much more than a guy with a guitar and a twang.

However country music to me should show emotion and feeling. I can hear the lyrics. On the ACM show Underwood, Swift, and Rimes seemed to shouting rather than singing.

I loved "Blue", a song LeAnne Rimes did several years ago as a teenager. I did not like at all the song she did on the ACM awards. I loved Carrie Underwood singing "Make the World Go Away" but did not like "Last Name."
I saw her concert with Keith Urban in Anaheim. Most of the time she was screaming to top the band who was much too loud. Urban was great and they were great together for one duet with his band. I like her records much better than the live show and on TV, though she does look great.

So it is not the crossover that bothers me but it is that I can not hear the lyrics and the emotion seems to be energy expended to be heard above the band.


Perhaps this might be a record company thing? Or just some production issue with some of these artists that htye might not have too much control over right now.



Colchar, did you watch the ACM show? If so, what did you think.


No, unfortunately I didn't as I was recording other stuff at the time (my PVR will only record two shows at once and, while that is happening you either have to watch one of them or watch something you've already recorded). They will be rebroadcast on CMT sometime this week though and I will definitely be recording them then.

The Gordog
05-20-2008, 02:16 PM
What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal
COuntry music is defined by the way it's mixed and produced. Nashville style: I know it when I hear it, particularly in the way the bass is put in. And yes, a lot of so called country these days is really Pop/Rock with a cowboy hat on.

Shammrog
05-20-2008, 02:22 PM
COuntry music is defined by the way it's mixed and produced. Nashville style: I know it when I hear it, particularly in the way the bass is put in. And yes, a lot of so called country these days is really Pop/Rock with a cowboy hat on.


Serious question - what about the twang? (See post above.)

rockymtn devil
05-20-2008, 02:25 PM
ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

I agree 100% with this, and find that "alt-country" (can we use that term now that No Depression doesn't exist?) is much more traditional than what is played on "new country" stations.

I posted a few weeks ago that Whiskeytown's "Stranger's Almanac" is, IMO, the best country record of the last 20 years and it certainly has some punk twists to it. But some of Ryan Adams's subsequent solo efforts come a lot closer to traditional country than alt-anything ("Jacksonville City Nights"). In this vein, I consider post-Crosby era Byrds to be more country than rock ("Sweetheart of the Rodeo"), and I think the same can be said for the entire Gram Parsons catalogue.

killerleft
05-20-2008, 02:47 PM
Country music is what it's audience says it is. The audience has been saying for at least 30 years that pop music with a steel guitar thrown in is country music. Since country music stations comprise 40% of all music stations (more than any other genre), many of the stars are pop-rock oriented. These singers are following their dreams to be successful professional musicians, and they bring their influences with them.

Give me some Americana music anytime. Of course, Americana includes country-pop bands before (and after) they have hit the big-time. I would rather listen to the Avett Bros., Jerry Douglas, John Cowan, Iris Dement, and any of a thousand singers and bands doing bluegrass, newgrass, or traditional country than hear what mostly passes for country nowadays.

I must admit, the ladies of Nashville Country are some of the best eye candy around, and most have very good to excellent voices. If they start doing some real old-time country, I will start spending some cash to hear them sing.

DevilAlumna
05-20-2008, 03:05 PM
What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

colchar
05-20-2008, 03:19 PM
Since country music stations comprise 40% of all music stations (more than any other genre)


Really? There are more country stations than rock stations?



I must admit, the ladies of Nashville Country are some of the best eye candy around


No kidding. Can't beat the cowgirl look.



and most have very good to excellent voices. If they start doing some real old-time country, I will start spending some cash to hear them sing.

Some of them are. And some of what they are doing is very very good (see my comments about Carolyn Dawn Johnson earlier in the thread).

colchar
05-20-2008, 03:20 PM
What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

You forgot about the faithful old dog dying.

Shammrog
05-20-2008, 03:41 PM
What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

She can quote "Darlin'"
She votes for Mace Windu (not my choice, but a bona fide bad*ss; the Star Wars equivalent of Nate James)...

DevilAlumna is perfect! When are you going to reply to my post (forgot the thread) in which you are to name a location (in the "Beaches" thread) for our tryst?

Shammrog, captivated by DevilAlumna...

Johnboy
05-20-2008, 03:57 PM
Me too. Which leads me to the following question:

My wife was watching last night, and I found myself pondering the distinctive country "twang" in most country music.

Noting that most (e.g., British) accents disappear when singing, is this "twang" a DELIBERATE affectation, or just a natural carryover from the "Southern accent"???

(And, can a song be "country" without the twang?)

Most British accents disappear(ed) because the people singing those pop songs want to sound American (like Elvis or their other American influences) - just ask the Beatles. There are plenty of Brits and Aussies who sing with their accents these days, and you can hear them (ever hear any Lilley Allen?)

I like to sing bluegrass and old country songs as well as listen to them, and for me, if you don't have the twang, it's just not right. I'm OK with folk without the twang, but country music and bluegrass need a twang - they sound strange - not gen-u-wine - without the twang.

Even so, I think very few country artists are "putting on" their accent - you listen to them speak and it's there. How's that for equivocating?

DukieInKansas
05-20-2008, 03:59 PM
You forgot about the faithful old dog dying.

There were no dying dogs in the perfect country western song!

"You Don't Have to Call Me Darlin', Darlin'" of courcse brings to mind his other great song - "Divers Do It Deeper". Thank you David Allan Coe.

billybreen
05-20-2008, 04:04 PM
There were no dying dogs in the perfect country western song!

"You Don't Have to Call Me Darlin', Darlin'" of courcse brings to mind his other great song - "Divers Do It Deeper". Thank you David Allan Coe.

David Allen Coe is a racist and a horrible person, IMHO.

Just so I'm not the annoying country hater in this thread, I will say that I have an abiding love for alt-country (Cracker, Drivin n Cryin, The Jayhawks, etc). And I can't resist tapping my toes to some Alabama.

Shammrog
05-20-2008, 04:13 PM
David Allen Coe is a racist and a horrible person, IMHO.

Just so I'm not the annoying country hater in this thread, I will say that I have an abiding love for alt-country (Cracker, Drivin n Cryin, The Jayhawks, etc). And I can't resist tapping my toes to some Alabama.


(Are you serious that David Allen Coe is a racist and horrible person? - if so, why? Never heard that.)

DukieInKansas
05-20-2008, 04:23 PM
I can't believe I put the wrong title for the song - the correct title for the Darlin' song is "You Never Even Call Me by My NAme".

camion
05-20-2008, 04:29 PM
Want to see if a song is real country music? Play it backwards.

------------------------------------------------------

What do you get when you play heavy metal music backwards?
Satanic messages.

What what do you get when you play country music backwards?
You sober up, you get your wife back, you get your dog back . . .

What do you get when you play New Age music backwards?
New Age music.

What do you get when you play a Michael Bolton song backwards?
The Parrot Sketch.

billybreen
05-20-2008, 04:29 PM
(Are you serious that David Allen Coe is a racist and horrible person? - if so, why? Never heard that.)

Well, this, for one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Allan_Coe). Caution, even the title of that song is horribly NSFW (actually, DBR munged the link name, so I changed the link to point to the main Wiki article instead).

I was actually subjected to the entire album that includes that song by some former friends, and that's just one example of the hateful stuff on there. Coe's claim that the song is 'satire' just doesn't hold water for me.

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 04:31 PM
This kind of bugs me a bit. Not your post per se but the general attitude that new country somehow isn't country (although I will agree that a lot of it sucks as I really don't like bands like Lonestar). Many of the people I've met who claim to listen to 'real' country and get all pretentious about it are those who might listen to one act - Johhny Cash - basically because it has become cool and hip to do so (damn that movie). They couldn't name another country artist if their lives depended on it (note: am not including you in this category, I'm merely venting here).

The new country movement (defined as a combination of rock and country or country crossing over to rock) isn't new at all. Conway Twitty, who nobody could argue wasn't a true country artist, released a single in the 1950s that didn't sell all that well but the B-side of which got considerable airplay. Many people believed it was actually Elvis singing under a different name.

Crystal Gale, the younger sister of Loretta Lynn who can easily be deemed the Queen of country music, recorded a lot of crossover songs in the 1970s.

Hank Williams Jr., who is the son of someone who might be deemed the King of country music, started his career basically mimicking his Dad (largely through the influence of his Mom). He rebelled against that and went his own way which was to incorporate rock into his music. He had a lot of trouble getting airplay for a while but eventually became hugely popular.

And Dolly Parton, who nobody with any common sense can claim was not a 'real' country artist, also recorded a lot of crossover songs.

So the new country movement has been around for a lot longer than most people realize and was started by artists who were, in essence, country royalty (all of the acts mentioned above would qualify as country royalty).

Plus, many of the artists who play what might be considered new country are also the ones who are releasing other songs that are very traditional...I'm thinking here specifically of Carolyn Dawn Johnson. Listen to Head Over High Heels and it would be considered new country. But listen to Georgia and tell me that doesn't sound like something that coulda come out in 1970 and been a huge hit.

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

Good answer. I've noticed people who don't like country tend to put it within a very narrow set of parameters.

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 04:33 PM
However country music to me should show emotion and feeling.
SoCal

Listen to the song in my sig.

billybreen
05-20-2008, 04:36 PM
Listen to the song in my sig.

I've got to give it to you and Garth -- that's a really cool message. With that said, it made my ears bleed, so it's definitely country. :o

Shammrog
05-20-2008, 04:40 PM
Well, this, for one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Allan_Coe). Caution, even the title of that song is horribly NSFW (actually, DBR munged the link name, so I changed the link to point to the main Wiki article instead).

I was actually subjected to the entire album that includes that song by some former friends, and that's just one example of the hateful stuff on there. Coe's claim that the song is 'satire' just doesn't hold water for me.

OUCH! That's really bad...

colchar
05-20-2008, 05:13 PM
I like to sing bluegrass and old country songs as well as listen to them, and for me, if you don't have the twang, it's just not right. I'm OK with folk without the twang, but country music and bluegrass need a twang - they sound strange - not gen-u-wine - without the twang.



So only southerners can legitimately sing country music?

colchar
05-20-2008, 05:18 PM
OUCH! That's really bad...

That isn't even close to the worst stuff he's done. Trust me.

edensquad
05-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Defintions and perceptions of what is pop, rock, country, etc. evolve over time. Remember when songs like "Take it Easy" and "Peaceful Easy Feeling" by the Eagles were hits on pop/rock Top 40 radio? They would be considered country songs today.

Country music has traditionally been a story-telling genre: songs set in a rural, blue collar background, telling tales of drinkin,' lovin' and leavin.' Boot-scoot boogie on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday. These stories are still being told (see Carrie Underwood's "Jesus Take the Wheel" or "Before He Cheats")..... just with less twang.

Turk
05-20-2008, 06:25 PM
Defintions and perceptions of what is pop, rock, country, etc. evolve over time. Remember when songs like "Take it Easy" and "Peaceful Easy Feeling" by the Eagles were hits on pop/rock Top 40 radio? They would be considered country songs today.

Country music has traditionally been a story-telling genre: songs set in a rural, blue collar background, telling tales of drinkin,' lovin' and leavin.' Boot-scoot boogie on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday. These stories are still being told (see Carrie Underwood's "Jesus Take the Wheel" or "Before He Cheats")..... just with less twang.

Sounds like this will devolve into the "commercial appeal" vs. "pure art" discussion... When most people use "country" as a negative term, it's because they're talking about something not too edgy that is calculated for mass consumption or else too broad to properly categorize... You're safer on the margins where folk or bluegrass intersect with whatever you want to call "country... As for me, I land on the "artist" side: I give the edge to performers who write their own stuff or are virtuosos with their chosen instrument.

Another approach is the case-by-case test:
Shania Twain: not country but off-the-charts hot...
Dixie Chicks: I'd call them country even though they can move product
Alison Krauss: used to be serious country but does anyone else beside me think that duet disc with Robert Plant is way overrated and not very good?
Lyle Lovett: where does he land? I vote country...

And where do you put bluegrass? Is that a sub-genre of country or is it for purists only?

"We play BOTH kinds of music: Country AND Western..."

rthomas
05-20-2008, 06:27 PM
I don't remember who sang it but to me the perfect country song said:

Well my dog died just yesterday and left me all alone.
The finance company dropped by today and repossessed my home.
That's just a drop in the bucket compared to losing you,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.

edensquad
05-20-2008, 06:32 PM
One thing I love about country music is that it treats faith as a normal part of life. I can't imagine another secular genre having hits like "Three Wooden Crosses" (Randy Travis), "I Saw God Today" (George Strait), "I Believe" (Brooks and Dunn), the aforementioned "Jesus Take the Wheel," "The Little Girl" (an incredible song by John Michael Montgomery), "Me and God" (Josh Turner), etc., etc.

Sin and redemption, faith and backsliding; part of the fabric of country music that distinguishes it from pop, rock, r & b and hip-hop.

DevilAlumna
05-20-2008, 08:40 PM
Alison Krauss: used to be serious country but does anyone else beside me think that duet disc with Robert Plant is way overrated and not very good?
Lyle Lovett: where does he land? I vote country...

And where do you put bluegrass? Is that a sub-genre of country or is it for purists only?


* I love the new AK/RP collaboration. "Gone Gone Gone" is particularly catchy/good for driving.

* I like Lyle's big band sound far beyond his more "country" offerings.

* I think "bluegrass" stands alone - it's a related genre to Country, more than a subset. Kind of like "folk."

Master Shake
05-20-2008, 08:54 PM
That isn't even close to the worst stuff he's done. Trust me.

If you are referring to N F'er it was cowritten by Shel Silverstein, so I think there is a very good chance it is satire.

colchar
05-20-2008, 10:08 PM
One thing I love about country music is that it treats faith as a normal part of life. I can't imagine another secular genre having hits like "Three Wooden Crosses" (Randy Travis), "I Saw God Today" (George Strait), "I Believe" (Brooks and Dunn), the aforementioned "Jesus Take the Wheel," "The Little Girl" (an incredible song by John Michael Montgomery), "Me and God" (Josh Turner), etc., etc.

Sin and redemption, faith and backsliding; part of the fabric of country music that distinguishes it from pop, rock, r & b and hip-hop.

The faith part of country music is something that I, as an atheist, tend to ignore (Alan Jackson mentions Jesus in his latest hit Small Town Southern Man yet I still love that song) but I do know people who are turned off by the references to faith/Jesus/God. Most of them still like country and simply choose not to listen to the songs that get on their nerves.

colchar
05-20-2008, 10:09 PM
If you are referring to N F'er it was cowritten by Shel Silverstein, so I think there is a very good chance it is satire.

That was one of them. Strangely enough, friends of mine were telling me about his stuff over the weekend so I downloaded some to hear if it was as bad as they had claimed. And yes, it was.

Johnboy
05-20-2008, 11:03 PM
So only southerners can legitimately sing country music?

There are country twangs all over, not just in the American South. Do I think music doesn't sound like Country music unless it has a twang? Actually, I'll confess that I don't - Shania Twain, Canadian, definitely sings Country music, and hardly has any twang at all (if you listen carefully, it's more vocal technique and substandard English lyrics that make her voice sound Country).
Even so, I don't think the twang is a put-on thing in most cases.

killerleft
05-20-2008, 11:10 PM
Just wondering - Does anyone else remember Bonnie Lou & Buster?

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 11:28 PM
However country music to me should show emotion and feeling.
SoCal

Jason Michael Carroll -Lyrics-: Alyssa Lies (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RNwtjiqS7xw)

Tim McGraw - Kristofferson (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5OsC7B0GI)

Tim McGraw -Grown Men Don't Cry (http://youtube.com/watch?v=icDD3Pkx0oM)

Gary Allan - Tough Little Boys (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SzmgAM8rIgo&feature=related)

Rodney Atkins '' cleaning my gun''(come on in boy) lyrics (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JeA5RKysQP4)

My Little Girl-Tim McGraw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wB_OoBuFAqE)

Kris kristofferson - Why me Lord (http://youtube.com/watch?v=g2u_rEcWW8M)

Alan Jackson "Here in the Real World" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eXZShnH32Q8)


This is just off the top of my head. Please don't say there is no emotion and feeling in country music.

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 11:30 PM
So only southerners can legitimately sing country music?

..No

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 11:32 PM
Defintions and perceptions of what is pop, rock, country, etc. evolve over time. Remember when songs like "Take it Easy" and "Peaceful Easy Feeling" by the Eagles were hits on pop/rock Top 40 radio? They would be considered country songs today.

I think this is more due to the move in rock instead of country. Much of CCR's stuff would probably be played on country stations today

Bluedawg
05-20-2008, 11:34 PM
I don't remember who sang it but to me the perfect country song said:

Well my dog died just yesterday and left me all alone.
The finance company dropped by today and repossessed my home.
That's just a drop in the bucket compared to losing you,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.

Then there's THERES A TEAR IN MY BEER (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PLSXd0C5V7M)

colchar
05-21-2008, 12:07 AM
Then there's THERES A TEAR IN MY BEER (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PLSXd0C5V7M)

I've never seen a country artist playing an Ibanez before.

SoCalDukeFan
05-21-2008, 02:18 AM
Jason Michael Carroll -Lyrics-: Alyssa Lies (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RNwtjiqS7xw)

Tim McGraw - Kristofferson (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5OsC7B0GI)

Tim McGraw -Grown Men Don't Cry (http://youtube.com/watch?v=icDD3Pkx0oM)

Gary Allan - Tough Little Boys (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SzmgAM8rIgo&feature=related)

Rodney Atkins '' cleaning my gun''(come on in boy) lyrics (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JeA5RKysQP4)

My Little Girl-Tim McGraw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wB_OoBuFAqE)

Kris kristofferson - Why me Lord (http://youtube.com/watch?v=g2u_rEcWW8M)

Alan Jackson "Here in the Real World" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eXZShnH32Q8)


This is just off the top of my head. Please don't say there is no emotion and feeling in country music.

I think that there is lots of feeling and emotion and story telling in some modern country music.

My problem was with the solo performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, and LeAnne Rimes on the ACM Awards show Sunday night. In my opinion all three were more shouting than singing. Bands were very loud. I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim and felt the same thing about that show.

I loved the Carrie Underwood/Brad Paisley combo singing. I loved "Blue" by Rimes several years. I love many of Carrie Underwood's recordings. My problem is with these 3 performances showcased on an award show.

Did you see the show? If so, did you like the performances?

SoCal

colchar
05-21-2008, 11:03 AM
I think that there is lots of feeling and emotion and story telling in some modern country music.

My problem was with the solo performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, and LeAnne Rimes on the ACM Awards show Sunday night. In my opinion all three were more shouting than singing. Bands were very loud. I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim and felt the same thing about that show.

I loved the Carrie Underwood/Brad Paisley combo singing. I loved "Blue" by Rimes several years. I love many of Carrie Underwood's recordings. My problem is with these 3 performances showcased on an award show.

Did you see the show? If so, did you like the performances?

SoCal

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I didn't see it last night but plan to when it is replayed. It will be rebroadcast this weekend so I've set it to tape and will let you know what I think after I've seen it.

killerleft
05-21-2008, 01:07 PM
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I didn't see it last night but plan to when it is replayed. It will be rebroadcast this weekend so I've set it to tape and will let you know what I think after I've seen it.

Hey, Colchar! What station is rebroadcasting the show? Thanks.

colchar
05-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Hey, Colchar! What station is rebroadcasting the show? Thanks.

it is being rebroadcast on CMT but keep in mind that I am in Canada so it is the Canadian CMT channel that is rebroadcasting it. I have no idea whther the American CMT will be doing the same.

killerleft
05-21-2008, 02:39 PM
Thanks again, a friend of mine missed the first hour or so. I'll let her find it.

micah75
05-21-2008, 05:05 PM
I like to sing bluegrass and old country songs as well as listen to them, and for me, if you don't have the twang, it's just not right.

You mean as in: Shy thanks ahhhh... stell carrrr.

I agree about the twang and prefer it in my country music. On a side-note, I've always had my doubts about Mel Tillis. His stuttering magically goes away when he sings??

Shammrog
05-21-2008, 05:28 PM
On a side note, Shania Twain is divorcing Mutt Lange.

She's available. And, HOT!

EarlJam
05-21-2008, 06:01 PM
On a side note, Shania Twain is divorcing Mutt Lange.

She's available. And, HOT!

I know. I feel really bad for what I've done to Mutt.

Well, sort of. He was mean to her. You should here some of the......nevermind.

-RlmJaEa

Mal
05-21-2008, 08:38 PM
I'm a big city, Obama-hearting, (formerly) Volvo driving elitist who listens to things like Spoon and Andrew Bird and Iron & Wine, so take anything I have to say about country music with an appropriate grain of salt, I guess. I'm not exactly the target demographic of Music Row. That said, I logged most of my musical time in my '20s as a hardcore No Depression subscriber, have a pretty extensive collection of bluegrass (and newgrass), Cash, Jennings, and the like on the ole iPod, and admit to liking the Dixie Chicks long before they told off GWB. So I think I know what I'm talking about, and do consider myself a country music fan.

The definition of what country music is, of course, is totally fungible. I have no problem with that. There's been a tension between "traditional" country and every offshoot of it since at least the 1930's, when bluegrass and acoustic southern white music started incorporating influences from gospel, jazz and the blues. Then came electronic instruments and rock. Now there's a whole field of subgenres and styles, and to each their own.

But at some point music can incorporate/borrow so much from other established genres that those other genres take over. I would humbly submit that such is the case with much of the radio country we hear today. The mix has the bass pushed out front so far, the guitar solos have so little finger-picking and so many power chords, the vocal style is so theatrical, that there's just no way not to categorize what you're hearing as pop/rock. Yes, there's a steel guitar somewhere in there, but there's also an eight-piece string section. It may get played on country radio, and the next song on the album may have an acoustic old-timey sound, but that particular song is really not country anymore to me.

That's all semantics, and good music is good music regardless of category, of course. (And you should listen to whatever makes you happy). But, urban music snob that I am, to my humble ears, most of the pop/rock you hear on country radio is, uhm, well, it's bad pop/rock (OK, I'll say it - it sucks), because (i) it's completely diluted and lacking in musical cohesion, and (ii) it's dropped one of the most worthy defining characteristics of traditional country music, its straightforwardness and simplicity, for either overwrought grandstanding or self-congratulatory celebration of that straightforwardness and simpliciy. It's a mess of disparate styles that often don't work well together (on both a song by song basis, and on an album formatting basis). You often hear songwriters referencing rock ideas in shorthand, but they're incapable of making the music, well, rock. (Save A Horse, anyone?). It all ends up sounding watered down and, therefore, commercialized.

This is not to mention the lyrical issues. My goodness, some of the lyrics on country radio today are outright atrocious. I don't care about the religious messages and the like, per se. I will say the stridently jingoistic current running through modern country bothers me and turns me off to some artists, but that's not it, either. It's the complete lack of subtlety that kills it. The cheapness of the sentimentality is astounding. Some of these songs sound like they were written by 15 year-olds who just fell in love for the first time at summer camp or noticed the existence of mortality when their pet died and decided to write bad poetry about it. Don't make me come up with cringe-inducing examples; they abound, and we all know what I'm talking about. It's like a bad caricature of the country music tradition of storytelling and everyday concerns. A lot of it, if it isn't far too sachharine, comes off as utterly inauthentic. I don't know if this is due to the suburbanization of America, or the fact Nashville stars make so much money, or what.

I have more thoughts but I've rambled far too long already.

Bluedawg
05-21-2008, 11:48 PM
I've never seen a country artist playing an Ibanez before.

.So?

Bluedawg
05-21-2008, 11:50 PM
I think that there is lots of feeling and emotion and story telling in some modern country music.

My problem was with the solo performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, and LeAnne Rimes on the ACM Awards show Sunday night. In my opinion all three were more shouting than singing. Bands were very loud. I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim and felt the same thing about that show.

I loved the Carrie Underwood/Brad Paisley combo singing. I loved "Blue" by Rimes several years. I love many of Carrie Underwood's recordings. My problem is with these 3 performances showcased on an award show.

Did you see the show? If so, did you like the performances?

SoCal

I saw parts of the show. I found the sound, at least through my TV to be very inferior as it normally is on these award shows. I can't help by wonder if they wee trying to over compensate.

Even Brad Paisley Kenny Chesney and Toby Keith sounded bad.

Bluedawg
05-22-2008, 12:01 AM
So only southerners can legitimately sing country music?


..No

Sorry for the short answer, it was late and I had a long day today, so i had to get to bed.

Los Lonely Boys-Heaven (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fjC4HXwLzBU) not southern boys but their song was a hit on country stations


Keith Urban - Stupid Boy (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xp8S0aDCleY) if memory serves Keith is from your neck of the woods.

I'm sure there are others, but these two are the first ones to come to mind.

edensquad
05-22-2008, 12:25 AM
This is in response to Mal's post; first, a disclaimer: my name is Rick Bowles and I have made my living as a songwriter in Nashville since 1986. I have been fortunate to have written a hit or three ;-)

First off, the alleged "tension" between traditional country and contemporary country is just silly. Music evolves. Country music should no more be obligated to sound like 1955 than rock and roll. Okay then...

And, watered down to the point of being "commercialized?" Puuuuhleaze. There is nothing inherently better about a song loved by 4 people than a song loved by 4 million. As a creative person, I can tell you this: I want to strike a chord with as many people as I can. Or else, why do it at all???

For every "Achy Breaky Heart," country has a "When I Get to Where I'm Going" (Brad Paisley), or "I'm Movin' On" (Rascal Flatts), or "Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning?" (Alan Jackson). Ya want small town, traditional value songs? Check out: "Boondocks" by Little Big Town, or "Hicktown" by Jason Aldean. Lost innocence? "Strawberry Wine" by Deana Carter.... first love? "Tim McGraw" by Taylor Swift (she is just 17, btw). Want real? Check out "One Wing in the Fire" by Trent Tomlinson.

Point being....country music is just fine. It may not be your grandaddy's country, but that's okay. We'll just keep on makin' it up as we go ;-)

colchar
05-22-2008, 12:33 AM
On a side note, Shania Twain is divorcing Mutt Lange.

She's available. And, HOT!

And in Toronto right now. Maybe it is time for me to start hanging around downtown...

colchar
05-22-2008, 12:35 AM
You mean as in: Shy thanks ahhhh... stell carrrr.

I agree about the twang and prefer it in my country music. On a side-note, I've always had my doubts about Mel Tillis. His stuttering magically goes away when he sings??

Fairly common. My brother's former roommate had a bad stutter. He could more or less control it in public (after years of coaching) but it was really bad when he was around people he was comfortable with as he wouldn't put forth the effort to control it. I heard him sing a couple of times and the stutter wasn't a problem.

colchar
05-22-2008, 12:39 AM
.So?

I wasn't saying it was a bad thing (I'm a huge Hank Williams Jr. fan)...it was merely an observation because some guitars are linked to certain music - Ibanez and BC Rich are linked to metal - and it can be interesting to see them being played in another genre.

colchar
05-22-2008, 12:41 AM
Sorry for the short answer, it was late and I had a long day today, so i had to get to bed.

Los Lonely Boys-Heaven (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fjC4HXwLzBU) not southern boys but their song was a hit on country stations


Keith Urban - Stupid Boy (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xp8S0aDCleY) if memory serves Keith is from your neck of the woods.

I'm sure there are others, but these two are the first ones to come to mind.


Keith Urban is Australian (originally born in New Zealand but moved to Australia when he was a kid).

colchar
05-22-2008, 12:47 AM
This is in response to Mal's post; first, a disclaimer: my name is Rick Bowles and I have made my living as a songwriter in Nashville since 1986. I have been fortunate to have written a hit or three ;-)

First off, the alleged "tension" between traditional country and contemporary country is just silly. Music evolves. Country music should no more be obligated to sound like 1955 than rock and roll. Okay then...

And, watered down to the point of being "commercialized?" Puuuuhleaze. There is nothing inherently better about a song loved by 4 people than a song loved by 4 million. As a creative person, I can tell you this: I want to strike a chord with as many people as I can. Or else, why do it at all???

For every "Achy Breaky Heart," country has a "When I Get to Where I'm Going" (Brad Paisley), or "I'm Movin' On" (Rascal Flatts), or "Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning?" (Alan Jackson). Ya want small town, traditional value songs? Check out: "Boondocks" by Little Big Town, or "Hicktown" by Jason Aldean. Lost innocence? "Strawberry Wine" by Deana Carter.... first love? "Tim McGraw" by Taylor Swift (she is just 17, btw). Want real? Check out "One Wing in the Fire" by Trent Tomlinson.

Point being....country music is just fine. It may not be your grandaddy's country, but that's okay. We'll just keep on makin' it up as we go ;-)


Excellent...a legitimate songwriter has joined the thread (I swear, we've got experts on everything here at DBR).

I agree with your post. As I said in my first one in this thread, the crossover was started by country royalty so it is fine by me. I love older country and I love new country.

Do you feel like telling us the names of any of the hits you've written? It would be really cool to know.

billybreen
05-22-2008, 12:51 AM
Do you feel like telling us the names of any of the hits you've written? It would be really cool to know.

Knowledge is only a Google away. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader out of deference to edens/Rick, but finding lists of songs was pretty easy.

DevilAlumna
05-22-2008, 01:03 AM
This is in response to Mal's post; first, a disclaimer: my name is Rick Bowles and I have made my living as a songwriter in Nashville since 1986. I have been fortunate to have written a hit or three ;-)


The googles reveal that you might be a tad modest in your out-ing... :)

Any chance of ever catching you at the Bluebird? Some of the most enjoyable music events I experienced in Nashville were at singer-songwriter nights there.

billybreen
05-22-2008, 01:17 AM
The googles reveal that you might be a tad modest in your out-ing... :)

You mean Windows Live Searches, of course. ;)

DevilAlumna
05-22-2008, 01:34 AM
You mean Windows Live Searches, of course. ;)

Only when they start to pay me to search there. Oh wait (http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/brierdudley/2008/05/the_bill_gates_giveaway_spam_i.html)....

A-Tex Devil
05-22-2008, 08:40 AM
Just to add my biased two cents, if you don't like country because of the images of Toby Keith, Big and Rich, the assembly line of eye candy singing other folks' songs and all the other over-produced schmaltz coming out of Nashville (where the rock is better than the country music these days IMHO), take a listen to the Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings influenced music coming out of Austin, Houston and other cities in Texas and Oklahoma.

Bruce and Charlie Robison, Kelly Willis, Cross Canadian Ragweed (although they've gone a bit Nashville), Reckless Kelly, Cory Morrow, Pat Green, Hayes Carll, Shooter Jennings, Band of Heathens, I could go on.... Not all from the area, but they've made their living in Austin.

Country music to me used to scream hacks like Alan Jackson and Travis Tritt. But getting to listen to these singer/songwriters and bands in Austin on a daily basis has given me an appreciation for what country music used to be and continues to be in Texas, away from the pop-country of Music Row.

Bluedawg
05-22-2008, 08:58 AM
This is in response to Mal's post; first, a disclaimer: my name is Rick Bowles and I have made my living as a songwriter in Nashville since 1986. I have been fortunate to have written a hit or three ;-)

First off, the alleged "tension" between traditional country and contemporary country is just silly. Music evolves. Country music should no more be obligated to sound like 1955 than rock and roll. Okay then...

And, watered down to the point of being "commercialized?" Puuuuhleaze. There is nothing inherently better about a song loved by 4 people than a song loved by 4 million. As a creative person, I can tell you this: I want to strike a chord with as many people as I can. Or else, why do it at all???

For every "Achy Breaky Heart," country has a "When I Get to Where I'm Going" (Brad Paisley), or "I'm Movin' On" (Rascal Flatts), or "Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning?" (Alan Jackson). Ya want small town, traditional value songs? Check out: "Boondocks" by Little Big Town, or "Hicktown" by Jason Aldean. Lost innocence? "Strawberry Wine" by Deana Carter.... first love? "Tim McGraw" by Taylor Swift (she is just 17, btw). Want real? Check out "One Wing in the Fire" by Trent Tomlinson.

Point being....country music is just fine. It may not be your grandaddy's country, but that's okay. We'll just keep on makin' it up as we go ;-)

Geat answer. In a response to colchar, who also had a great respone to this thread, i wrote


I've noticed people who don't like country tend to put it within a very narrow set of parameters.

They try various ways to narrow those parameters such as pointing out that some Eagles hits, and rock hits from that era would probably be played more on country stations now than rock. My response is that is due in part to the evolution of rock…which seems more acceptable to them than country evolving. There are those who stick to tradition, Alan Jackson is tops on that list. Or they suggest that country can ONLY talk about feelings and emotion leading one to think that all they want are heart breaking ballads, There is more to life than feelings and emotion, so why should country be limited to just that. Three songs from a tremendous songwriter Brad Paisley, and written with a satirical flair fly in the face of that. I'm Gonna Miss Her (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8O3Plt8DyMk),
Celebrity (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uEPe4fZNf74) and Online (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7GcVnhNjWV0) may not fit those parameters but they do talk about the human nature, and are great songs.

Everything evolves, why is country music not allowed to?

BTW, are you the Rick Bowles who wrote Down Home for Alabama and Emotional Girl for Terry Clark? Good job! [yes, I looked you up, hope you don't mind. I’ve always loved Terry Clark!]

Bluedawg
05-22-2008, 09:05 AM
Keith Urban is Australian (originally born in New Zealand but moved to Australia when he was a kid).

That's right, he is. Emerson Drive (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JzriEXPJ1-k) is from your way.

edensquad
05-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Bluedawg, yep, I co-wrote those ;-)

DevilAlumna, I haven't played the Bluebird in awhile, and don't know when I'll be there again. It's a very cool place to hear original music.

One other point: Music makers in Nashville are not connected by some creative umbilical cord to Mother Maybelle Carter via Hank Williams. When choosing which note to sing, or chord to play, or word to write, I get there on a jagged line that goes through Memphis and Elvis, Detroit and Smokey Robinson, Liverpool and the Beatles, North Caroilna and Don Gibson and James Taylor... and others get there through countless other regions and influences.

Harlan Howard once said that country music was "three chords and the truth." A few more chords are used these days :cool:

colchar
05-22-2008, 09:58 AM
Knowledge is only a Google away. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader out of deference to edens/Rick, but finding lists of songs was pretty easy.

Yeah I know but figured I might as well ask the man himself.

colchar
05-22-2008, 10:01 AM
Country music to me used to scream hacks like Alan Jackson and Travis Tritt.

Alan Jackson has recorded some great stuff. Despite a few not so great songs, I'd hardly call him a hack.

colchar
05-22-2008, 10:05 AM
Everything evolves, why is country music not allowed to?


Exactly!



BTW, are you the Rick Bowles who wrote Down Home for Alabama and Emotional Girl for Terry Clark? Good job! [yes, I looked you up, hope you don't mind. I’ve always loved Terry Clark!]

Ahh, Terri Clark. Another good Canadian girl.

Now if only I could convince Rick to hook me up with Gretchen Wilson...

edensquad
05-22-2008, 10:08 AM
Colchar, thanks for asking. I am a little uncomfortable listing my discography; I have been extremely blessed to have some of my songs recorded and released.

I am thankful to not be sayin', "Ya want some fries with that?"

colchar
05-22-2008, 10:17 AM
Colchar, thanks for asking. I am a little uncomfortable listing my discography; I have been extremely blessed to have some of my songs recorded and released.

I am thankful to not be sayin', "Ya want some fries with that?"

No problem...I'll just use Google.

Bluedawg
05-22-2008, 11:16 AM
Bluedawg, yep, I co-wrote those ;-)

Well they are great songs.

For those who do not know them, please listen and You'll learn quick of eden's qualification to speak as an expert.

Alabama's Down Home (http://youtube.com/watch?v=u2xHvcWxE68)

Terri Clark's Emotional Girl (http://youtube.com/watch?v=nHaRoY3fA7Y)

Bluedawg
05-22-2008, 11:44 AM
Exactly!

Ahh, Terri Clark. Another good Canadian girl.

Now if only I could convince Rick to hook me up with Gretchen Wilson...

I still love the old stuff. i listen to Eddie Arnold (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zbPcH5caOJU&feature=related), Hank Sr., (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-Xu71i89xvs)Little Jimmy Dickens (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PBANUy8JU7M), George Jones (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7FkQO5VUx5A), Willie (http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3DXyfL3HX0), Waylon (http://youtube.com/watch?v=31aETl1BESU) and of course Haggard (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ffHcGlF0xDw&feature=related). but i do enjoy the new stuff, Toby (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OOkhqxaKqVs), Alan Jackson (http://youtube.com/watch?v=R_uOEosQNWA), Brad Paisley, (http://youtube.com/watch?v=6fqtbMHfpXY)Kenny Chesney (http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4ySSg4QG8g), etc.

BTW, Terry Clark is much hotter!

colchar
05-22-2008, 11:58 AM
BTW, Terry Clark is much hotter!

Its not like either of us would say no to either of them...


Gretchen Wilson:

http://www.countrystarsonline.com/images/artists/GretchenWilson2005.jpg


Terri Clark:

http://www.witmcountry.com/TerriClark1.jpg

Mal
05-22-2008, 01:39 PM
I don't want to be misconstrued here. I had hoped I made it clear that I don't begrudge any evolution in musical styles or expect things to be stable. In fact, by pointing out that the genre definition of country has been fluid for many decades, I thought I said just that - if I wasn't clear, please forgive me. I'm not trying to box in the style and make it stagnant, nor do I expect any artist to stick within tight confines to please my delicate sensibility, although I reserve the right to not listen to them if too much of their catalog strays from what I like. I prefer a certain sound, but that's a matter of taste. For the most part, I had only two points to make. First, that if we're trying to categorize (which may or may not be a worthwhile endeavor in the first place), I would argue that a lot of what is called "country" these days displays enough attributes that are typically in the definition of "pop," and some of those overshadow the elements that are typically in the definition of "country" to the point that I feel it is more pop music than anything else. Nothing inherently good or bad about any of this, just (if you're accepting of labelling in general) perhaps some things have been mislabeled. I heard a song on the radio in a cab the other day, for instance (didn't get the name) that made me think it was written for Celine Dion, yet it was on a country station. I don't think that particular song was an evolution, but rather a cross-over. No big deal. My second point was simply trying to put a finger on why a lot of what comes across the country airwaves doesn't do it for me, as the prevailing sentiment in the thread seemed to be that people who pooh-pooh country don't know what they're talking about or are curmudgeonly purists. It's subjective taste, I guess, but I was just trying to present a few things that undercut some offerings for me, instead of dismissing the whole category with no reasoning.

edensquad knows far more than I or anyone else here on the subject, so I won't dispute anything he's said, nor am I trying to overturn his apple cart. My ears just tend to prefer other things, and I'm trying to determine for myself why, by distinguishing within the broad arena of country. Perhaps it mostly just comes down to production style? I know there are tons of people writing wonderful songs in Nashville; I've been to the Bluebird a few times myself. But maybe there's just something getting lost in translation from songwriter through studio production/instrumentation/engineering choices that doesn't work for me, and I think doesn't work for a lot of people who might like the underlying song in a different setting. I'm sure I'd have a different reaction to Gillian Welch's songs if they were played at a different tempo or with a pounding rhythm section.

I don't know. As edensquad noted, there are lots of songs by the more radio friendly artists that appeal to a country "purist" like me. But I don't have the time to sort them out from the stuff I just can't get into, which is probably half the songs you'll hear on the radio. Not enough music time for a non-professional, so I stick to the subgenres that give me a higher connection rate.

edensquad
05-22-2008, 02:24 PM
Good points, Mal; I can't disagree with anything you just wrote. Ultimately, it's all a matter of taste. I like to say that you can love a song, I can hate it.... and we're both right ;-)

And I certainly don't mean to come across as Moses arriving with the Ten Commandments, lol; I am just a guy with an opinion forged over two decades of trying to survive in a very tough business. Thanks for taking the time to post!

colchar
05-22-2008, 02:30 PM
And I certainly don't mean to come across as Moses arriving with the Ten Commandments, lol; I am just a guy with an opinion forged over two decades of trying to survive in a very tough business. Thanks for taking the time to post!

And, as with everything else around here, that gives you instant credibility (and I doubt anyone thought you were participating in an attempt to appear authorotative or anything like that).

Now back to my earlier request...any chance you could arrange for me to meet Gretchen Wilson (Bluedawg be damned!!)?

edensquad
05-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Colchar, I am afraid it's a no-go on Gretchen Wilson, as I have not had the pleasure of meeting her. Sorry 'bout that ;)

colchar
05-22-2008, 03:04 PM
Colchar, I am afraid it's a no-go on Gretchen Wilson, as I have not had the pleasure of meeting her. Sorry 'bout that ;)

Alright, how about Terri Clark then (who is damned near as hot as Gretchen). I'm betting you've met her. Just tell her you've got a good down home Canadian for her.

DukieInKansas
05-22-2008, 03:55 PM
Colchar, I am afraid it's a no-go on Gretchen Wilson, as I have not had the pleasure of meeting her. Sorry 'bout that ;)

If you had been able to this for Colchar, I was going to request an introduction to Collin Raye.

colchar
05-22-2008, 03:58 PM
If you had been able to this for Colchar, I was going to request an introduction to Collin Raye.

he can probably pull that one off. My luck just stinks. But I'm still holdin' out hope for Terri Clark...

A-Tex Devil
05-23-2008, 02:28 AM
Alan Jackson has recorded some great stuff. Despite a few not so great songs, I'd hardly call him a hack.

Probably harsh, but that damn Chattahoochee song is up there on my list of worst songs in the history of popular music with Three Little Pigs by Green Jelly and Walk the Dinosaur by Was not Was.

There's just a sense of overproduction with guys like Alan Jackson and Toby Keith that I haven't ever liked.

Do love me some George Strait, though. The Chair is one well written song.

Bluedawg
05-23-2008, 10:18 AM
Probably harsh, but that damn Chattahoochee song is up there on my list of worst songs in the history of popular music with Three Little Pigs by Green Jelly and Walk the Dinosaur by Was not Was.

There's just a sense of overproduction with guys like Alan Jackson and Toby Keith that I haven't ever liked.

Do love me some George Strait, though. The Chair is one well written song.

i believe that is one reason Toby fired his record label and opened his own. he wanted more control over the music he was putting out.

Don't trash Alan over one song. he really is a very good artist

Alan Jackson - Livin' On Love (http://youtube.com/watch?v=FKoNdZeKPMU)

Alan Jackson - Midnight in Montgomery (http://youtube.com/watch?v=yp3AY4zbRwU)

Alan Jackson - Here In The Real World (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QzmjaBT6MXs)

and off of his lastest CD Small Town Southern Man (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RAxXq_LNMb4)

colchar
05-23-2008, 11:01 AM
Probably harsh, but that damn Chattahoochee song is up there on my list of worst songs in the history of popular music with Three Little Pigs by Green Jelly and Walk the Dinosaur by Was not Was.

There's just a sense of overproduction with guys like Alan Jackson and Toby Keith that I haven't ever liked.

Do love me some George Strait, though. The Chair is one well written song.

As Bluedawg has mentioned, Alan Jackson shouldn't be considered a hack just because of one song. Lots of great artists have a lousy song or two in their catalogue. The Beatles (even though I personally don't like them except as solo artists) wrote some terrible songs. The Allman Brothers, who I love, wrote some bad songs (and there is one, in particular, that the band themselves hate even though it remains eternally popular with most of their fans). Led Zeppelin, who have always been my favourite band, also wrote a couple of crappy songs that I simply hate listening to. But I don't let those few songs colour my opinion of these bands' overall bodies of work (well except for the Beatles but that's another story altogether).

Listen to the links that Bluedawg provided and you'll see that Alan Jackson has put out some really good music (Small Town Southern Man is excellent and pretty traditional). Heck, the links Bluedawg provided don't even represent the best of Alan Jackson but they are a good place to start.

blublood
05-23-2008, 11:34 AM
Actually, I generally agree with A-Tex Devil. Alan Jackson has had some good songs (especially "Small Town Southern Man" - love that song!), but usually his songs just come off feeling syrupy to me. He seems contrivedly over-countrified. (although I would vastly prefer that to Big and Rich who, IMO, wish they were rap stars but know they would never succeed in the biz.)

The absolute worst Alan Jackson lyric ever, hands down, no contest, is from "Remember When." He's warbling nostalgically: "We made love and then you cried." Dude, that's not a good thing! That's a very bad thing! I will leave out an explanation about specifically why it's bad because this is a family board, but take it from a woman's perspective.

colchar
05-23-2008, 11:43 AM
The absolute worst Alan Jackson lyric ever, hands down, no contest, is from "Remember When." He's warbling nostalgically: "We made love and then you cried." Dude, that's not a good thing! That's a very bad thing! I will leave out an explanation about specifically why it's bad because this is a family board, but take it from a woman's perspective.

That was hardly what he was trying to convey there. Listen to the song in its entirety (heck, just listen to the verse in its entirety) and the meaning of that line comes across pretty clear.

And, if I remember correctly, that song is autobiographical - it is about him and his wife after they made it through some marital problems and came out the other side in a stronger relationship. Maybe she did cry after their first time - losing her virginity might have been very emotional for her. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it was emotional in a bad way.

I think you're interpreting that lyric incorrectly.


For those not failiar with them, here are the lyrics to the entire song:

"Remember when I was young and so were you
and time stood still and love was all we knew
You were the first, so was I
We made love and then you cried
Remember when

Remember when we vowed the vows
and walked the walk
Gave our hearts, made the start, it was hard
We lived and learned, life threw curves
There was joy, there was hurt
Remember when

Remember when old ones died and new were born
And life was changed, disassembled, rearranged
We came together, fell apart
And broke each other's hearts
Remember when

Remember when the sound of little feet
was the music
We danced to week to week
Brought back the love, we found trust
Vowed we'd never give it up
Remember when

Remember when thirty seemed so old
Now lookn' back it's just a steppin' stone
To where we are,
Where we've been
Said we'd do it all again
Remember when
Remember when we said when we turned gray
When the children grow up and move away
We won't be sad, we'll be glad
For all the life we've had
And we'll remember when"

blublood
05-23-2008, 04:28 PM
Listen to the song in its entirety (heck, just listen to the verse in its entirety) and the meaning of that line comes across pretty clear.


Oh, I have! As a matter of fact, I can't help it because the radio stations around here are in love with it. :)


And, if I remember correctly, that song is autobiographical - it is about him and his wife after they made it through some marital problems and came out the other side in a stronger relationship. Maybe she did cry after their first time - losing her virginity might have been very emotional for her. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it was emotional in a bad way.



Doubtlessly. But my guess would be that there was more going on there than you would have thought and it doesn't quite fit into the whole "life is wonderful" theme of the song. Obviously it's not my business. I just happen to think that it's a terrible, inelegant lyric any way you slice it.

However - off to Memorial Day!

fadero
05-23-2008, 07:11 PM
emmy lou harris
lucinda williams
kasey chambers
gram parsons
sun volt
j.cash
waylon
merle
willie
roseanne cash
del mccoury
tammy
the dead

it's the sound...got to have the sound and the soul

Bluedawg
05-23-2008, 09:59 PM
Actually, I generally agree with A-Tex Devil. Alan Jackson has had some good songs (especially "Small Town Southern Man" - love that song!), but usually his songs just come off feeling syrupy to me. He seems contrivedly over-countrified.

he uses banjos, fiddles and steal guitars..the foundation of country music. This thread started by saying that country is too pop and now you are saying that country is too country.

colchar
05-29-2008, 11:59 AM
Colchar, did you watch the ACM show? If so, what did you think.



Not trying to resurrect a dead thread or anything, but I finally watched most of the ACM show last night (it has been on my PVR for a few days).

I thought a lot of the performances were fairly poor but I thought it more a result of the production than anything else. It seemed the vocals were off and that some artists had to shout to be heard. One group in particular (can't remember who off the top of my head but it was the band whose bass player had the ridiculous mohawk) had problems with softer vocals being heard at the start of the song and the girl ended up shouting through most of the rest of it. I'm pretty sure that was the sound guy/producer's fault rather than hers.

I also thought some of the male performers sounded rather wooden for some reason.

I don't like awards shows at all - this is the only one I watch. All in all, I thought it was ok as far as awards shows go but I'm starting to think they need someone other than Reba to host it next year (I've never been a fan of her acting or hosting abilities). They also need to resolve their sound issues.

Bluedawg
05-29-2008, 03:37 PM
Not trying to resurrect a dead thread or anything, but I finally watched most of the ACM show last night (it has been on my PVR for a few days).

I thought a lot of the performances were fairly poor but I thought it more a result of the production than anything else. It seemed the vocals were off and that some artists had to shout to be heard. One group in particular (can't remember who off the top of my head but it was the band whose bass player had the ridiculous mohawk) had problems with softer vocals being heard at the start of the song and the girl ended up shouting through most of the rest of it. I'm pretty sure that was the sound guy/producer's fault rather than hers.

I also thought some of the male performers sounded rather wooden for some reason.

They also need to resolve their sound issues.

I had the exact same impression. I commented to my wife about how awful they all sounded and it was clear to me that it was in the production. They never seem to sound very good at award shows, but this one was worse than usual.

"wooden" is a very good description.

SoCalDukeFan
05-29-2008, 05:28 PM
Not trying to resurrect a dead thread or anything, but I finally watched most of the ACM show last night (it has been on my PVR for a few days).

I thought a lot of the performances were fairly poor but I thought it more a result of the production than anything else. It seemed the vocals were off and that some artists had to shout to be heard. One group in particular (can't remember who off the top of my head but it was the band whose bass player had the ridiculous mohawk) had problems with softer vocals being heard at the start of the song and the girl ended up shouting through most of the rest of it. I'm pretty sure that was the sound guy/producer's fault rather than hers.

I also thought some of the male performers sounded rather wooden for some reason.

I don't like awards shows at all - this is the only one I watch. All in all, I thought it was ok as far as awards shows go but I'm starting to think they need someone other than Reba to host it next year (I've never been a fan of her acting or hosting abilities). They also need to resolve their sound issues.

Thanks.

My other problem is that I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim with Keith Urban. I had the same issue with her performance. I was told that it was caused by the sound guy. He was great. She was best when she did a duet with him.

I am looking forward to hearing more country singers sing rather than sound.

SoCal

Bluedawg
05-29-2008, 05:40 PM
Thanks.

My other problem is that I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim with Keith Urban. I had the same issue with her performance. I was told that it was caused by the sound guy. He was great. She was best when she did a duet with him.

I am looking forward to hearing more country singers sing rather than sound.

SoCal

A lot of it is the quality of the sound guy/equipment, the acoustics of the building and the ability of the engineer to adapt.

I’ve seen her in a medium size college gym and she sounded great.

colchar
05-29-2008, 08:27 PM
I had the exact same impression. I commented to my wife about how awful they all sounded and it was clear to me that it was in the production. They never seem to sound very good at award shows, but this one was worse than usual.

"wooden" is a very good description.

I thought wooden was particularly apt for Toby Keith and Brad Paisley.

colchar
05-29-2008, 08:28 PM
Thanks.

My other problem is that I saw Carrie Underwood in Anaheim with Keith Urban. I had the same issue with her performance. I was told that it was caused by the sound guy. He was great. She was best when she did a duet with him.

I am looking forward to hearing more country singers sing rather than sound.

SoCal

But if Keith is the headliner (which he would be) then the sound wuold be set up for him, not her. Opening acts have to take what they can get so I'm not sure we can blame her for that one either.

SoCalDukeFan
05-30-2008, 11:44 AM
From today's LA Times. She was the opening act for Kenny Chesney.

"LeAnn Rimes preceded him with a short set heavy on vocal power and Americana rock-leaning arrangements, demonstrating how far she's moved away from the Patsy Cline-like country of "Blue" that launched her career as a teenager.

When she offered up a snippet of that song, it was no longer the steel-guitar driven traditional country tune it started out as but a cabaret-lounge version with moody piano backing.

And the wonderful lunacy she's shown at times by covering such non-country material as Prince's "Purple Rain" was nowhere in sight -- replaced by undistinguished pop-rock."

My guess is that I just like the Patsy Clink-like country way more than "undistinguished pop-rock."

SoCal

colchar
05-30-2008, 11:45 AM
From today's LA Times. She was the opening act for Kenny Chesney.

"LeAnn Rimes preceded him with a short set heavy on vocal power and Americana rock-leaning arrangements, demonstrating how far she's moved away from the Patsy Cline-like country of "Blue" that launched her career as a teenager.

When she offered up a snippet of that song, it was no longer the steel-guitar driven traditional country tune it started out as but a cabaret-lounge version with moody piano backing.

And the wonderful lunacy she's shown at times by covering such non-country material as Prince's "Purple Rain" was nowhere in sight -- replaced by undistinguished pop-rock."

My guess is that I just like the Patsy Clink-like country way more than "undistinguished pop-rock."

SoCal

Meh. Led Zeppelin used to do a reggae version of Stairway to Heaven now and then (or Now and Zen to quote a Robert Plant album).

Bluedawg
05-30-2008, 03:38 PM
From today's LA Times. She was the opening act for Kenny Chesney.

"LeAnn Rimes preceded him with a short set heavy on vocal power and Americana rock-leaning arrangements, demonstrating how far she's moved away from the Patsy Cline-like country of "Blue" that launched her career as a teenager.

When she offered up a snippet of that song, it was no longer the steel-guitar driven traditional country tune it started out as but a cabaret-lounge version with moody piano backing.

And the wonderful lunacy she's shown at times by covering such non-country material as Prince's "Purple Rain" was nowhere in sight -- replaced by undistinguished pop-rock."

My guess is that I just like the Patsy Clink-like country way more than "undistinguished pop-rock."

SoCal

And her career has basically died hasn't it? So you are not the only one.

Back when Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, et.al. were in their prime is when she started making the switch. My feeling is that she was jealous of their attention. I knew her career would plummet and it has.

Carrie says she plans on staying true to her roots and hopefully she will.