Question for the golfers

[Jmac1970]

I am hoping to elicit some help from the golfers on the board. I am currently around a 12 handicap (although I haven't been able to get out yet since I live in Minnesota) and I am in the market for new irons. I am pretty much down to the Mizuno MP-57 or the Titleist AP2 irons. Both are forged (I have been playing Mizuno MX-20 forged irons so I fear that moving to cast would be tough). Has anyone ever tried either or both of these? Heard anything about them? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[DUKIECB]

I recently purchased a set of irons myself and I am also about a 12 handicap. My advice to you would be to go to a golf store or a Dick's sporting goods and hit as many different irons as you can. Before I went in I had made up my mind that I was not going to have any preconceived ideas of what I wanted. This way I just kept hitting clubs and narrowing my list as I went along. After a couple of trips to the store and about 3 hours of hitting I had it narrowed down to two sets.

Like you, I had previously played "players" irons and not the cavity back game improvement irons. But after all that testing the two sets I liked the best and had the most success with were the Cleveland CG Golds and the King Cobra FP.

I know, I know how could you possibly go from muscle backs to game improvement irons? Well, I wish I had done it a long time ago. I am playing the best I have ever played with my irons and it just took getting my macho mindset out of the way and actually playing what works best for me.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I am hoping to elicit some help from the golfers on the board. I am currently around a 12 handicap (although I haven't been able to get out yet since I live in Minnesota) and I am in the market for new irons. I am pretty much down to the Mizuno MP-57 or the Titleist AP2 irons. Both are forged

Follow DukieCB's advice above and try out some cast irons. As 12 handicappers, and I'm in the same neighborhood, none of us are good enough, consistent enough, to not play a cavity back type iron, whether cast or forged. Your competition is taking advantage of the technology, why shouldn't you? Buy what feels, and looks, good to you. Brand really doesn't matter - they are all comparable.

[Jmac1970]

I appreciate the advice. I have been working with a pro on improving my ball striking (which has helped significantly) over the off season. The MX-20's I have now are forged cavity backed irons which are considered significant game improvement irons. The thing that I like about both of the above mentioned irons is that they are both forged cavity back irons which offer a nice mix of forgiveness and feel. This as opposed to the Mizuno MP-33 which are just pure blades. That is way out of my league. I am hoping to get into single digits this season and wanted some irons to grow into. I will make sure I try and many as possible. Thanks.

[Channing]

I am also in the market for new irons, and I have also been playing forged irons for a long time (I still use the original set of Mizuno T-Zoid forged irons - circa 1998).

Like you, I am looking for a forged club that provides workability, but isnt necessarily a straight blade. Here is what I have come up with:

Callaway
The Callaway X-Forged is a terrific stick. The only catch is you need a pretty quick swing speed. If you are swinging your driver ~105+ you may want to look into these.

Titleist
Up until about a week ago I was looking at the Titleist 755. They are forged (Although a little harder feel than what I am used to), and have a decent sized cavity. I just saw that titleist has come out with a new iron - the ZB series- that looks pretty good. I havent swung them or the AP2 so I cant comment on either set.

Mizuno
A classic - you wont go wrong with a Mizuno. The MP-57 is a tremendous club, and is a lot more forgiving than you would think. If you dont mind the way it looks at set up, the MX-25's have also been highly reviewed.

Hogan
These are definitely more of a players stick, but the Apex Edge is also classic. I havent hit them in a while, and will be taking htem out to the range to see how they feel.

[mkirsh]

My experience with each of the sets you mention is limited to just hitting them at demo days, but you can't really go wrong with either club. They are very similar players cavity backs, and a decent ball striker playing to a 12 should be able to handle these fine. The obvisouly will cost more distance on off center hits vs the MX 20's and you will definitely feel every mistake, but they are by no means as harsh as playing blades. In terms of differnces between them, I found the AP2s to be a little easier to hit, very easy to hit straight and get up in the air. The feel was muted a little vs the Mizuno, which really have a great forged feel to them, but again the differences are very minor. I currently play Titleist 690.CBs, and I think I would personally probably lean towards the 57's slightly, but would have no problem playing the AP2s. Make sure to get the right shaft though - both come standard with PX 5.5, and as someone who has played DG shafts forever, the difference is a pretty big one, so definitely demo and get fit if that's an option for you.

Also, if you want to read pages and pages of additional reviews, check out the www.golfwrx.com domestic equipment forum.

[greybeard]

Get fitted. Many golf places have exceptional fitting capabilities (computerized). You usually have to pay for the time, but it's at most 50 bucks to get fit for your swing speed, shape, etc. The length and lie, shaft weight and kick point will all be custom. Most major manufacturers do not charge extra, or if they do it is not appreciable, to special order clubs customized to your specs.

When I was playing regularly, I was fitted by a pro for a set of Titlest (non computer). This was the third set I had purchased from the guy, the first two he built. The last fitting was far more comprehensive; took an hour plus. I hit a bunch of 5 irons with tape on the bottom and face.

When we started, he told me that by the end we would know which was the "right" club. I thought that he was nuts. We actually got it down to four, two offset, two not offset, and two carbon (stiff and regular) and two steal (ditto). I chose offset regular carbon, and added 15 yeards per club from the really tight set of blades I had been playing with. Choice came down to wanting a higher ball flight and a little draw action (I used to hit a very straight ball, not really compressing it the way one should).

Terrific fun getting fit. The computerized system, especially for woods, is supposed to be amazing. For irons, if there is a pro around who does the tape business (the ball and ground leave an imprint so you know where the strike was), it is an amazing experience. I don't know that the computer can replicate that.

At least at the golf club where I used to take lessons and purchased my equipment, the price of irons beat any of the discount places around and the custom fitting was included! Buying a club off the rack if you are a 12 is a sin. Do not do it!

PS Many private clubs will fit and sell you equipment. Some have special pricing if you join "the plan." If you buy a set, my guy did not charge the fee for "the plan." Good luck!

[Channing]

Get fitted. Many golf places have exceptional fitting capabilities (computerized). You usually have to pay for the time, but it's at most 50 bucks to get fit for your swing speed, shape, etc. The length and lie, shaft weight and kick point will all be custom. Most major manufacturers do not charge extra, or if they do it is not appreciable, to special order clubs customized to your specs.

When I was playing regularly, I was fitted by a pro for a set of Titlest (non computer). This was the third set I had purchased from the guy, the first two he built. The last fitting was far more comprehensive; took an hour plus. I hit a bunch of 5 irons with tape on the bottom and face.

When we started, he told me that by the end we would know which was the "right" club. I thought that he was nuts. We actually got it down to four, two offset, two not offset, and two carbon (stiff and regular) and two steal (ditto). I chose offset regular carbon, and added 15 yeards per club from the really tight set of blades I had been playing with. Choice came down to wanting a higher ball flight and a little draw action (I used to hit a very straight ball, not really compressing it the way one should).

Terrific fun getting fit. The computerized system, especially for woods, is supposed to be amazing. For irons, if there is a pro around who does the tape business (the ball and ground leave an imprint so you know where the strike was), it is an amazing experience. I don't know that the computer can replicate that.

At least at the golf club where I used to take lessons and purchased my equipment, the price of irons beat any of the discount places around and the custom fitting was included! Buying a club off the rack if you are a 12 is a sin. Do not do it!

PS Many private clubs will fit and sell you equipment. Some have special pricing if you join "the plan." If you buy a set, my guy did not charge the fee for "the plan." Good luck!

most, if not all, golf stores, will fit you in the ordinary coures of business. I actually dont think the higher end irons come "off the rack" anymore if you buy them from a true golf store.

[rthomas]

I love my irons - Tommy Armour 855's - I love them. I sleep with them, I love them so much. And I love my old TM Burner driver.

But I'm thinking of buying some hybrids. Maybe a 3 and a 4. Any help with what to look for? Is 3 or 4 the most useful?

Thanks. Broken 90 a couple times, mostly mid to low 90's and been playing for two years. But completely addicted.

[Channing]

I love my irons - Tommy Armour 855's - I love them. I sleep with them, I love them so much. And I love my old TM Burner driver.

But I'm thinking of buying some hybrids. Maybe a 3 and a 4. Any help with what to look for? Is 3 or 4 the most useful?

Thanks. Broken 90 a couple times, mostly mid to low 90's and been playing for two years. But completely addicted.

I got a hybrid 3 iron and I LOVE it. If you are going to get more than one you may want to consider a 3i and a 5i as its pretty easy to manipulate distance on them.

I found the callaway's the easiest to hit. The Titleist is more of a players club and a little harder to it. The Adams is the easiest to hit (I found) but significantly more expensive.

It took some ego busting to take the two iron out the bag and replace it with a hybrid, but I am glad I did.

[Jmac1970]

I actually made a fitting appointment with my pro prior to seeing the post. It seems like this is the only way to go. She said it is pretty intensive and will take about an hour. We have been working hard on impact position but she said that because my swing plane is consistent, we can fit with relative confidence. I am excited to have it done and invest a little more in my game. The lessons do seem to be paying off. I have been working at GolfTec and as a scientist, I love the ability to see the angles of my body for each part of my swing. It really helps me see what I am doing wrong.

Thanks to all for the advice. I am going to carefully consider the clubs mentioned here and take the advice to heart. I'll let everyone know what I end up with.

[greybeard]

I love my irons - Tommy Armour 855's - I love them. I sleep with them, I love them so much. And I love my old TM Burner driver.

But I'm thinking of buying some hybrids. Maybe a 3 and a 4. Any help with what to look for? Is 3 or 4 the most useful?

Thanks. Broken 90 a couple times, mostly mid to low 90's and been playing for two years. But completely addicted.

The original rescue hybrid made by Taylor Made is a very good value at $90 at Galaxy Golf (on-line and has lots of stores). Here again though shafts can make a lot of difference. I was looking a bit at them over the winter, and a Galaxy Store that open nearby had some used Pings, that had high-end shafts with a low kick point that makes getting the ball up in the air easier. They were "as new" and were $90 each.

I'd look for something in the 22 to 26 degree range. The shaft will be shorter on those, and they will be easier to hit more regularly than a 3 or 4 hybrid. The extra yardage is really meaningless. Playing in the 90 to 100 range is great. Hitting more solid shots makes the game more enjoyable, as I remember it (haven't played in a while); you have a much better chance of hitting it solidly with a shorter shaft and more lofted club.

BTW, you might think of buying a nine wood. Cobra puts really, really good shafts in theirs, Alledia (not the spelling). On e-bay you can pick one up for about $85 new if you buy a last year's model. Some models, I think it is their "M" series, are offset, which helps if you tend to release early. If you release way too early, the offset won't help; but being a tad early, the offset gives you a chance to have your hands precede the clubhead through the ball, which is what you want. 9 woods are a full two inches shorter in the shaft than a 7 wood. A seven wood has pretty much the same length shaft as a 5 wood (1/2 inch shorter).

I have an older Cobra 9; my favorite club by far. For me, much easier to put a good strike on the ball with that club than anything but an 8 iron on down.

Also, Cobra's "baffler" hybrids use the same shaft. Some of the shafts are a tad light/whippy (55) even for a high handicapper; 65 R feels more solid to me. Same price or maybe even less expensive than the fairway woods.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

BTW, you might think of buying a nine wood.
a 7 wood.

9 woods? 7 woods? Ick! Cringe! Just how old are you, greybeard? Those clubs are for, well, never mind. I was going to say something about the women on the LPGA tour using clubs like that, but I won't ;)

I love my 2 iron, and like my 1 iron. I can't stand the hybrid 3+ I recently bought - it will remain unused for a long time.

[Channing]

The original rescue hybrid made by Taylor Made is a very good value at $90 at Galaxy Golf (on-line and has lots of stores). Here again though shafts can make a lot of difference. I was looking a bit at them over the winter, and a Galaxy Store that open nearby had some used Pings, that had high-end shafts with a low kick point that makes getting the ball up in the air easier. They were "as new" and were $90 each.

I'd look for something in the 22 to 26 degree range. The shaft will be shorter on those, and they will be easier to hit more regularly than a 3 or 4 hybrid. The extra yardage is really meaningless. Playing in the 90 to 100 range is great. Hitting more solid shots makes the game more enjoyable, as I remember it (haven't played in a while); you have a much better chance of hitting it solidly with a shorter shaft and more lofted club.

BTW, you might think of buying a nine wood. Cobra puts really, really good shafts in theirs, Alledia (not the spelling). On e-bay you can pick one up for about $85 new if you buy a last year's model. Some models, I think it is their "M" series, are offset, which helps if you tend to release early. If you release way too early, the offset won't help; but being a tad early, the offset gives you a chance to have your hands precede the clubhead through the ball, which is what you want. 9 woods are a full two inches shorter in the shaft than a 7 wood. A seven wood has pretty much the same length shaft as a 5 wood (1/2 inch shorter).

I have an older Cobra 9; my favorite club by far. For me, much easier to put a good strike on the ball with that club than anything but an 8 iron on down.

Also, Cobra's "baffler" hybrids use the same shaft. Some of the shafts are a tad light/whippy (55) even for a high handicapper; 65 R feels more solid to me. Same price or maybe even less expensive than the fairway woods.

I have to agree with Ozzie. A nine wood is the functional equivalent of about a 6 iron. If you are playing to a 12 handicap you are going to get much more out of hitting a 6 iron. The beauty of the hybrid is you can take the long iron out of your bag and play the hybrid instead (as an aside, the original hybrid was a club called the baffler by Cobra golf). As a 12 handicap, and looking at players clubs, the only iron really that is worth pulling is the 3 iron. The rest of them you should be pretty good with. I would only recommend a 7 or 9 wood if your swing speed on the drive is somewehre down in the 70s.

[greybeard]

9 woods? 7 woods? Ick! Cringe! Just how old are you, greybeard? Those clubs are for, well, never mind. I was going to say something about the women on the LPGA tour using clubs like that, but I won't ;)

I love my 2 iron, and like my 1 iron. I can't stand the hybrid 3+ I recently bought - it will remain unused for a long time.

You reallly don't want to know. At my best, I shot around 85-90 at U Md golf course, although my pro said I should have been a single digit. That didn't last long.

Basically, I drove the ball well and straight and was very accurate from 7 on down for a 15 plus (never actually kept one), but could never hit a 6 or under with any degree of dependability. Something about the nine wood ($35 from Golfsmith) just fit my eys; off the tee went a full 185 plus if I needed it and off the turf 170s down to 150s.

Never really got to compressing the ball except off the Tee, and an occasional high iron. My 7 went about 145. I would release at the bottom but the club head usually got to the ball a tad in front of where it should have been.

Anyway, me and my man Bill used to like to walk and I took to taking everything below a 7 iron out of the bag and carrying a nine and three wood, along with the driver.

It has been steeply downhill as my middle has gotten bigger. I got away from the game when my son started playing travel soccer and never really got back into it.

Wonderful sport, and I really tried to improve, made many trips to work with my man Mike Hebron, to little avail. Like almost everything, I know more about the game than I can do.

Interesting tale. I met Sam Jones on a flight back to DC. We ended up sitting next to each other and talking golf the whole way from Cinn. He was on his way to play in a charity tournament, which is a constant gig for him. Getting off the plane, I said something like, "You know Sam, as great as this game is, there really is only one game, right?" He just smiled.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Interesting tale. I met Sam Jones on a flight back to DC. We ended up sitting next to each other and talking golf the whole way from Cinn. He was on his way to play in a charity tournament, which is a constant gig for him. Getting off the plane, I said something like, "You know Sam, as great as this game is, there really is only one game, right?" He just smiled.

Who is Sam Jones and what one game are you talking about?

[greybeard]

I actually made a fitting appointment with my pro prior to seeing the post. It seems like this is the only way to go. She said it is pretty intensive and will take about an hour. We have been working hard on impact position but she said that because my swing plane is consistent, we can fit with relative confidence. I am excited to have it done and invest a little more in my game. The lessons do seem to be paying off. I have been working at GolfTec and as a scientist, I love the ability to see the angles of my body for each part of my swing. It really helps me see what I am doing wrong.

Thanks to all for the advice. I am going to carefully consider the clubs mentioned here and take the advice to heart. I'll let everyone know what I end up with.

If you can deal with vectors etc, there is an insane book, the Golfing Machine, that will knock your socks off. Can't imagine it will help your game. Check out my boy's web page, http.//www.mikehebron.com; go to the free library; there is an awful lot that you might find useful there.

[gw67]

For those who are interested in the 21 variables that make up golf club design, Tom Wishon's book, The Search for the Perfect Golf Club, is interesting reading. I plan to replace my old Mizuno irons later this year, and a golfing buddy who makes his own clubs recommended that I read this "bible" before I go down the path of getting fitted. I just borrowed the book last week and while it is heavy on the technical, it is easy to read and understand.

gw67

[greybeard]

For those who are interested in the 21 variables that make up golf club design, Tom Wishon's book, The Search for the Perfect Golf Club, is interesting reading. I plan to replace my old Mizuno irons later this year, and a golfing buddy who makes his own clubs recommended that I read this "bible" before I go down the path of getting fitted. I just borrowed the book last week and while it is heavy on the technical, it is easy to read and understand.

gw67

went to the golfgalaxy store in Rockville; they now advertise that they will do a special "fitting" for the right ball. Almost reminds me of that Larry Black routine about how, if he were super rich, he would have his own personal ball washer. A take off on the old dumb blond joke--she is riding in a Cadillac with an old guy who goes to pay for gas and two golf Tees fall out onto the seat. She asks what they are for, he tells her, she replies, "My gosh, what are the Cadillac people going to think of next." baddaboom!