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bluedevilsince72
04-13-2012, 10:11 AM
He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0

jv001
04-13-2012, 10:14 AM
He has no touch! He can't shoot!

Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!

CameronBornAndBred
04-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!
Agreed...I think the article adresses "the point" very well.

Plumlee could be a consistent scorer, but his high school coach told Adam Gold and Joe Ovies that he didnít think he was going to be a dominant scorer simply because he is a team first player.
That said: why does he have games where he disappears on offense? Here there are three basic possibilities. 1) defense; 2) ball movement, and 3) confidence.
As long as he doesn't dribble :rolleyes:, Plumlee can indeed shoot the ball. And while making fun of him (or any other big) dribbling is easy, it's also very important to his ability to score...if you are impeded by other bodies from your way from the floor to the rim, your success rate is going to go down. But as jv pointed out, he has a nice ambidextrous hook, and hasn't been too bad from away from the basket straight on...when given the chance. Also, as much fun as it is to poke at his FT's, he's proven there too that he can shoot. He got significantly better as the season went on, so I have no doubt he can actually shoot (even when faced with defender). I think we are going to see more of his repertoire this season as the coaches make him more of a focal point on offense.

roywhite
04-13-2012, 10:47 AM
He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0

Have to agree this is a pretty basic problem. A great point guard and a faster open-court game would help, too, but we can't count on that.

Mason would have a much better offensive game if he could hit a jump shot from 10 to 15 feet; that shot has been made available to him by defenses around the league, and he can't or won't take it.
Now, I don't think this is hopeless and indeed confidence figures into this. Mason has markedly improved on shots around the basket with the jump hook as noted. He made significant improvement over the 2nd half of the season in his free thorw shooting; as others have noted, in warmups he has a relaxed form and hits jumpshots.

If he can improve and hit some of these short to mid-range shots, Coach K's vision of Mason being an All-American and contender for ACC POY is realistic.

flyingdutchdevil
04-13-2012, 10:48 AM
MP2 will not develop a mid-range game, IMO. I just don't see it. His poor FT% coupled with him NEVER attempting a mid-range shot implies that developing this skill isn't going to happen. I'd rather that Plumlee work on his back-to-the-basket and facing-the-basket-from-ten-feet-out rather than working on that shot for only 6 momths.

What MP2 really needs is consistency. I think this can be achieved through three ways:
1) Continuous work on his post-up game (obviously)
2) FT, FT, FT. If he were to shoot 75% this year, his average would have risen by 1.2 points. He needs that shot in his arsenal.
2) Working with the guards (especially Cook, TT, and Curry) to feed him the ball.

I really like Plumlee. I see him as a 1st Team All-ACC next year (minimum 2nd Team All-ACC), but he needs to work on that consistency. If he can guarantee Duke 10 points a game (while average 15-16 points), that can be devastating to opponents.

Rich
04-13-2012, 10:53 AM
My hope with all of this negativity is that it not only gives Mason more incentive to develop his game and become the dominant inside player he can be, but also gives the coaching staff the incentive to showcase their ability to develop, and run an offense through, a big man. Perception is more important than reality sometimes and, whether true or false, with the recent comments by recruits, coaches and the media, the Duke basketball program is clearly teetering on the brink of "can't develop a big man." Mason can dispel that with strong scoring numbers. I'm concerned, however, that if he can't develop the inside game that outsiders think he should have, it's going to hurt our ability to recruit big men even more than we've seen up to now.

lotusland
04-13-2012, 11:01 AM
I like Brad Daugherty but I think he is wrong about Mason "regressing" instead of improving. Mason actually improved quite a bit last year in particular. I don't think Duke did a good job getting him the ball in position to score often enough though. Hopefully we run the offense inside out this year to get Mason more shots and also use his passing ability to hit cutters as well as shooters spotting up. I agree with others who have said that he needs to lose the hesitation and power dribble and just go up strong. He seems to have worked out his free throw shooting funk and I see no reason that he can't hit a 15-footer at least as well as Miles did. Hopefully he has a monster year and silences all the critics.

BigWayne
04-13-2012, 11:20 AM
The article discounts the guard play but that is a big part of the picture. Go back and look at the Lehigh debacle. Yes Mason had a big game statistically, but it should have been bigger. Look at the screen plays and you will see Lehigh's big men "showing" aggressively and our guards almost never passing to Mason when he rolls. If we had been successful with a few of those, the defense would have needed to back off the perimeter and it would have changed the whole game.

Truth
04-13-2012, 11:26 AM
He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0

Pretty crazy to think that tmw's runner-up for the "Best Team Field Goal Percentage" award can't shoot!

Devilsfan
04-13-2012, 11:39 AM
McRob and Shav 2.0 isn't bad. Wish he had the handle of McRob and the strength of Shav. I wish MP11 would stop thinking he was a guard and have to put the ball on the court with every touch. Plus I wish he would hit the weight room religiously (maybe he is but just can't gain bulk nor strength). Go Devils!

OZ
04-13-2012, 11:41 AM
In my opinion, to make this discussion about Plumlee is to miss the point. What was once the subject of mild discontent discussed in the cozy confines of Bullocks soon began to appear in mutiple discussions on these boards. The subject often vacillated between how Duke used big men to the annual discussion of the "big man" coach.

The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.

To launch into another round of posts as to the reality of this also misses the point; this is not just about reality, but perception. And in the world of basketball recruiting, where illusions of grandeur often replace any sense of reality, perception is everything to some.

This beast is not going to be tamed nor removed by posts, DBR articles or any amount of our futile debates among friends from rival schools. The remedy exist with Coach K. I make no pretense about having a solution, I am not a head coach. However, it seems inevitable, that if Duke wants to be able to consistently recruit a good big man, a strategy is needed to deal with this. A couple of years ago, when the "Duke hate" fever was in full pitch, Coach K made it one of his objectives to take that head on. It is time this "reality/perception" also be taken head on. My guess is he is already at it. Mason will be a good place to start.

flyingdutchdevil
04-13-2012, 11:42 AM
McRob and Shav 2.0 isn't bad. Wish he had the handle of McRob and the strength of Shav. I wish MP11 would stop thinking he was a guard and have to put the ball on the court with every touch. Plus I wish he would hit the weight room religiously (maybe he is but just can't gain bulk nor strength). Go Devils!

Disagree. I don't have an issue with his handle (or his ability to dribble) nor his strength. I have an issue with a) his consistency and b) inability of our guards to feed hi the ball in scoring position.

chrishoke
04-13-2012, 11:47 AM
Dear Brad,

Stick to stock cars.

Thanks,
Chris

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Is it against board policy for someone with access to post his KenPom efficiency ratings?

Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from making more than 50% of his free throws?
Does Coach K's "system" force him to have the 2nd most turnovers (close to 1st most) on the team when he isn't anything remotely resembling a primary ball-handler? (or, allegedly, not part of the offense anyway)
Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from being below average at boxing out on the defensive boards? (ok this one is definitely subjective... KenPom? I think it's correct though)

Lets be real, these are things that "elite NBA prospects" figure out - system or not.

I like mason a lot and think he is a great college player, but just want to be realistic about this.

miramar
04-13-2012, 11:59 AM
Maybe I'm paranoid, but is it just a coincidence that Daugherty's comments come out at the time that Tony Parker has to make a decision? Maybe so, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the Tar Heels aren't out to get you.

The idea that Mason has regressed is laughable. I disagree that he's McRandolph 2.0 because Mason has a good attitude and keeps improving his game, even though Daugherty has been inhaling too many NASCAR fumes to notice. Nevertheless, there is something to the comment as far as perceptions are concerned since it seems that people are comparing Mason's reputation out of high school to his performance in college, just as they did with McRoberts and Randolph.

After 30+ years people should understand that Coach K adapts his system to the players on the floor, so when he had penetrating guards and strong inside players, Duke got plenty of points from Shelden Williams, Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer. When he's stronger on the perimeter, he gets points from the three-point line.

If Quinn Cook comes back strong and Mason keeps working hard, which I'm sure he will, perceptions will change. In the meantime, Daugherty should start wearing a helmet when he test drives his cars.

Duvall
04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Is it against board policy for someone with access to post his KenPom efficiency ratings?

Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from making more than 50% of his free throws?
Does Coach K's "system" force him to have the 2nd most turnovers (close to 1st most) on the team when he isn't anything remotely resembling a primary ball-handler? (or, allegedly, not part of the offense anyway)
Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from being below average at boxing out on the defensive boards? (ok this one is definitely subjective... KenPom? I think it's correct though)

"Boxing out" isn't a statistic kept by Ken Pomeroy, or anyone else. But you can find that Mason finished the year ranked #32 in defensive rebounding in the country, so the subjective view may not be the right one here.

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 12:02 PM
"Boxing out" isn't a statistic kept by Ken Pomeroy, or anyone else. But you can find that Mason finished the year ranked #32 in defensive rebounding in the country, so the subjective view may not be the right one here.

Ok yeah, that is what I meant. 32 is good, but is that efficiency or just overall numbers? Doesn't tell you too much if he just got the 32nd most D-rebounds in the country, given the minutes he played on a top-10 team that is actually not that impressive to me.

Duvall
04-13-2012, 12:03 PM
Ok yeah, that is what I meant. 32 is good, but is that efficiency or just overall numbers? Doesn't tell you too much if he just got the 32nd most D-rebounds in the country, given the minutes he played on a top-10 team that is actually not that impressive to me.

Defensive rebounding percentage. Not total rebounds.

Saratoga2
04-13-2012, 12:06 PM
Have to agree this is a pretty basic problem. A great point guard and a faster open-court game would help, too, but we can't count on that.

Mason would have a much better offensive game if he could hit a jump shot from 10 to 15 feet; that shot has been made available to him by defenses around the league, and he can't or won't take it.
Now, I don't think this is hopeless and indeed confidence figures into this. Mason has markedly improved on shots around the basket with the jump hook as noted. He made significant improvement over the 2nd half of the season in his free thorw shooting; as others have noted, in warmups he has a relaxed form and hits jumpshots.

If he can improve and hit some of these short to mid-range shots, Coach K's vision of Mason being an All-American and contender for ACC POY is realistic.

It is fairly easy to limit a big man's scoring if his only abilities are either to dunk or hit a jump hook. Many players faced will be as big and as mobile and will force the big to catch the ball away from the basket. We saw this happening in the final four. Sullinger had a lot of trouble scoring against Kansas with two bigs to throw at him. It's not all that easy inside. I also think it is not all about having a guard that can make an entry pass. Having a big man that can hit a shot from 12 to 15 feet out adds a dimension to his game and forces defenses to move a big out to play defense. I don't know if Mason has the nature to stay calm and take mid range shots smoothly. He really has never tried them as someone else has said. The NBA big men, Kevin Garnett for instance, have that feature in their offense and it helps them and their teams, so why not try to develop in that way?

I think most Duke fans feel blessed to have the Plumlee family filling our big man needs. We are coming up to 5 years and may have a Plumlee starting center for 3 years after that. Mason had very good games this past year and has stayed healthy and with the program. I don't think he has regressed but instead he has improved over the last three years.

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 12:12 PM
Defensive rebounding percentage. Not total rebounds.

Ok.

I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

EDIT: Follow-on point, relating back to the article: this has nothing to do with how Coach runs the offense and helps show why Mason is not an elite NBA prospect.

wilko
04-13-2012, 12:21 PM
What does Mason and the Coaching staff have to say about his "Development goals" for his Senior year?

Its easy to say "this needs to get better" or "that needs to improve" .. yadda yadda... but unless someone is going to expressly define the goals for him and how he fits as a focal for the team... then all he can do is disappoint and feed the perception.


Hello Rock, meet hard place..

SeattleIrish
04-13-2012, 12:23 PM
The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.



It certainly hasn't helped our recruiting to have coaches and commentators sharing their perception that Duke fails to develop interior players.

We really need Jabari. That one is gonna be huge.

s.i.

hq2
04-13-2012, 12:30 PM
It certainly hasn't helped our recruiting to have coaches and commentators sharing their perception that Duke fails to develop interior players.

We really need Jabari. That one is gonna be huge.

s.i.

I pointed this out recently and was duly castigated. As stated before, a big coach who is really a big would help;
Wojo does his best, but that wasn't his position. Too bad his (and Ks, since Wojo is his alter ego) and Ks egos
are too much tied up in this. Makes it tough to get someone else.

Duvall
04-13-2012, 12:38 PM
Ok.

I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is.

Except that you're talking about all of Division I, without adjusting for player roles or levels of competition. Mason's defensive rebounding really does put him in elite company. (http://kenpom.com/playerstats.php?s=DRPct)

Kedsy
04-13-2012, 12:41 PM
I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

Are you serious? Top 35 in the country is anything is pretty elite. But, if you want to look at it another way, Mason is 8th in the country in defensive rebounding percentage if you only count "Big 6" conferences. He's 2nd in the ACC.

Jared Sullinger is 48th in the nation in defensive rebounding percentage. Mike Scott is 41st. Anthony Davis is 52nd. Tyler Zeller is 181st.

Give it up. You were wrong about Mason's defensive rebounding prowess. Your guess is also wrong about his offensive rebounding -- he's not nearly as good at that (153rd in the country) than he is at defensive rebounding.

Miles, on the other hand, was 8th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage (2nd among "Big 6" players). That's pretty amazing if you think about it.


.

ikiru36
04-13-2012, 12:45 PM
Ok.

I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

Not getting at the rest of your argument, but I believe the Pomeroy rankings are out of all players nationally. I wish I knew exactly how many D1 players there are total, but with over 340 teams in Pomeroy's rankings there must be over 3400 players accounted for meaning that a #32 ranking is in the top 1% of defensive rebounders. That's pretty elite. And that's without taking into account the fact that he was having to share rebounds with another very good rebounder, his brother.

One can have all kinds of fun with stats, so I'm not saying this proves that Mason is an elite defensive rebounder, but his being #32 in this particular stat certainly doesn't tend to refute it.

(Just for fun, I'll mention that there are some NBA tracked Synergy stats that basically provide an adjusted rebounding +/- rating which sometimes does not match with a player's other offensive and defensive rebounding #s and %s. This could mean that while one is good at grabbing all their teams easy rebounds when on the court, their rebounding style somehow hinders the team's overall rebounding acumen (perhaps they never box out except when going for a rebound themselves). Also, a player who is especially efficient at blocking the opposing power forward out, allowing others on his own team to get the rebound, is not credited with a rebound yet has likely played a larger role in the team gaining/retaining possession than the other player who perhaps didn't need to box anyone out. Or perhaps he really is a great rebounder, but because of the team's substitution pattern he is always forced to play with a lineup of 4 other poor rebounders? Anyways, some food for thought and argument for use of advanced stats, while remaining careful about how one interprets the data.)

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scorp4me
04-13-2012, 12:50 PM
Blah, blah, blah. Duke can't win with the 3. Duke can't develop NBA players. Duke is too unathletic to win (won it all that year). Duke can't this, Duke can't that. This is just the next train to hop on to draw in the masses. Come on guys, don't fall for it. It's a stupid argument. Coaches are saying it, commentators are saying it, daddy's are saying it...sure they are, they want to say anything to be heard and dissing Duke is a sure way to do it. Just be glad we're still being talked about, year after year after year and enjoy it til Coach K retires cause I guarantee it ain't stopping.

And can someone please give me a statistical breakdown of the heights for the other big men coaches on top teams so we can put yet another stupid argument to rest I would appreciate it.

Bob Green
04-13-2012, 12:56 PM
... but unless someone is going to expressly define the goals for him and how he fits as a focal for the team...

Two things I am reasonably sure of are Mason's "development goals" have already been defined but neither the staff nor Mason are going to post the list on DBR. We all are going to have to push the "I believe" button and move on. I'm excited Mason has decided to return to Duke for his senior season and look forward to him having a stellar season. I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.

Rich
04-13-2012, 12:57 PM
The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.

To launch into another round of posts as to the reality of this also misses the point; this is not just about reality, but perception. And in the world of basketball recruiting, where illusions of grandeur often replace any sense of reality, perception is everything to some.

This beast is not going to be tamed nor removed by posts, DBR articles or any amount of our futile debates among friends from rival schools. The remedy exist with Coach K. I make no pretense about having a solution, I am not a head coach. However, it seems inevitable, that if Duke wants to be able to consistently recruit a good big man, a strategy is needed to deal with this. A couple of years ago, when the "Duke hate" fever was in full pitch, Coach K made it one of his objectives to take that head on. It is time this "reality/perception" also be taken head on. My guess is he is already at it. Mason will be a good place to start.


My hope with all of this negativity is that it not only gives Mason more incentive to develop his game and become the dominant inside player he can be, but also gives the coaching staff the incentive to showcase their ability to develop, and run an offense through, a big man. Perception is more important than reality sometimes and, whether true or false, with the recent comments by recruits, coaches and the media, the Duke basketball program is clearly teetering on the brink of "can't develop a big man." Mason can dispel that with strong scoring numbers. I'm concerned, however, that if he can't develop the inside game that outsiders think he should have, it's going to hurt our ability to recruit big men even more than we've seen up to now.

Scary how similar our posts are. Of course, my post is about 1 hour earlier than yours. ;)

ice-9
04-13-2012, 12:59 PM
This is a touchy subject but I'm gonna throw my two cents in anyway.

First of all, I agree that Mason has improved every year. It's obvious to me that he has.

Second, there's absolutely nothing wrong with setting screens, blocking shots and rebounding, that's what all big men should do and know how to do well.

Third, I acknowledge that at some games Mason doesn't seem to be aggressive enough about establishing position and demanding the ball. That said I've also seen plenty of games where he has.

BUT

I agree that Mason can be utilized better.

He doesn't receive the ball enough and quickly enough in the post, and when he does it often isn't with the best positioning. Look at how Kansas uses their bigs -- their hi-lo plays put their bigs in scoring positions. We never seem to run those kinds of plays for Mason.

Why does he turn the ball over so often? In part because he's simply not receiving the ball in a good position. A dominant center should never have to dribble the ball for long; it should be two, maximum three dribbles before you're in a position to lay-up the ball.

Mason is an awesome running big man. But we hardly go on the fast break...in most part because we don't have the guards to do it (post-Kyrie), but that would be one way to utilize Mason more effectively.

He is also a fantastic passer. However, when he has the ball in the high post how often does another player cut to the basket? Usually we just stand around the perimeter waiting for a pass. Our offense becomes stagnant and Mason doesn't have the chance to showcase his passing skills. Sure, this may not be his fault, but it's another valid instance of how we are not utilizing him to his potential. Mason would be really great in a motion offense.


I'm sure he'll improve yet again in his senior year, but I'm not confident he will produce significantly better numbers. The source of that pessimism lies in the fact that this past season was supposed to be the year that Mason breaks out, that he becomes a major part of our offense. Yet I think most will agree that at best he played a complementary role in the offense this year.

7.4 shot attempts isn't very much at all, especially when many of those were alley-oops and put-backs.

Troublemaker
04-13-2012, 01:00 PM
Gaines' and Daughterty's comments are just revisionist history and kicking a man while he's down (due to the loss to a 15 seed). Mason has gotten better and gotten utilized more every single year at Duke. This will continue next season.

Rich
04-13-2012, 01:01 PM
I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.

Agreed, but to the extent this same sentiment is communicated (ad nauseum, I'm sure) to our big man recruits by our recruiting competitors, it does make a difference and needs to be disspelled.

roywhite
04-13-2012, 01:02 PM
It certainly hasn't helped our recruiting to have coaches and commentators sharing their perception that Duke fails to develop interior players.

We really need Jabari. That one is gonna be huge.

s.i.

Perception problem?
Probably so, though I'd say that a kid being recruited by Duke should get plenty of information about what is real and what isn't.
FWIW, I do think the wide-spread Terping about "Duke gets all the calls" which our friend Billy Packer helped promote, had some actual effect on how our games were called.

Does this mean Coach K needs to go on a P.R. offensive?
No, I'd rather see him continue to work with players and develop relationships with recrruits; and it wouldn't hurt Mason to work on his 10 to 15 foot jump shot.

Kedsy
04-13-2012, 01:11 PM
He doesn't receive the ball enough and quickly enough...

This past season you could say this about all of our players who didn't have the ball in their hands already.

It was most glaring with Mason and Andre, but also Miles and Seth (when he wasn't the primary ballhandler). Ryan didn't seem to have this problem when he set up outside, perhaps because he's so tall for a three-point shooter, but he did when he went inside. Also, the fact that most of our players were not good creators when they had the ball exacerbated the problem of them not getting the ball at the prime moment when they got open.

Bob Green
04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
This past season you could say this about all of our players who didn't have the ball in their hands already.

It was most glaring with Mason and Andre, but also Miles and Seth (when he wasn't the primary ballhandler). Ryan didn't seem to have this problem when he set up outside, perhaps because he's so tall for a three-point shooter, but he did when he went inside. Also, the fact that most of our players were not good creators when they had the ball exacerbated the problem of them not getting the ball at the prime moment when they got open.

You make a great point here. The pick and pop was very effective with Ryan Kelly while the pick and roll with Miles was largely ineffective because no matter how wide open Miles was on the roll he rarely received the ball back from the guard. The opportunity to deliver the pass to the man rolling is short lived and our guards seemed to hesitate just enough that the opportunity disappeared.

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
Are you serious? Top 35 in the country is anything is pretty elite. But, if you want to look at it another way, Mason is 8th in the country in defensive rebounding percentage if you only count "Big 6" conferences. He's 2nd in the ACC.

Jared Sullinger is 48th in the nation in defensive rebounding percentage. Mike Scott is 41st. Anthony Davis is 52nd. Tyler Zeller is 181st.

Give it up. You were wrong about Mason's defensive rebounding prowess. Your guess is also wrong about his offensive rebounding -- he's not nearly as good at that (153rd in the country) than he is at defensive rebounding.

Miles, on the other hand, was 8th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage (2nd among "Big 6" players). That's pretty amazing if you think about it.


.

Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance. I am considering as "elite" a lottery pick as the concern in the article was with his NBA status. Not college elite. Does being the 8th-best big-6 conference defensive rebounder in the country as a junior make you a lottery pick if that is your best attribute? Clearly not since he was projected as a late first round pick this year.

I think people are missing the actual point of my post -- mason's (relative) lack of NBA interest has nothing to do with how Coach K uses him in the system. There are plenty of ways for players to show that they are NBA players outside of what offensive system you are in and Mason hasn't done many of them (except, sorry, maybe defensive rebounding.)

OZ
04-13-2012, 01:20 PM
Scary how similar our posts are. Of course, my post is about 1 hour earlier than yours. ;)


Rich,
Honestly, I didn't see yours or I probably would not have written mine.
As soon as I read the DBR article, I suspected where the direction of the responses would go. I started mine and had to pause for while to answer some calls.
BTW, great post!

Kedsy
04-13-2012, 01:33 PM
Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance.

Try statsheet (http://statsheet.com/mcb). Has a lot of the tempo free stats (although not all), and it doesn't cost anything.

DukieInBrasil
04-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance. I am considering as "elite" a lottery pick as the concern in the article was with his NBA status. Not college elite. Does being the 8th-best big-6 conference defensive rebounder in the country as a junior make you a lottery pick if that is your best attribute? Clearly not since he was projected as a late first round pick this year.

I think people are missing the actual point of my post -- mason's (relative) lack of NBA interest has nothing to do with how Coach K uses him in the system. There are plenty of ways for players to show that they are NBA players outside of what offensive system you are in and Mason hasn't done many of them (except, sorry, maybe defensive rebounding.)

Thoroughly unconvincing argument. Are any kids projected as lottery picks based on only one attribute? As pointed out, Mason rebounds at a better rate than Sullinger, who is projected as a lottery pick whose best attribute is being huge in the paint. Rebounding is part of being huge in the paint.
I wish the NBA was as uninterested in me as they are in Mason.

IBleedBlue
04-13-2012, 01:49 PM
I pointed this out recently and was duly castigated. As stated before, a big coach who is really a big would help;
Wojo does his best, but that wasn't his position. Too bad his (and Ks, since Wojo is his alter ego) and Ks egos
are too much tied up in this. Makes it tough to get someone else.

I agree with your assessment. A big coach who has played either PF or C position would be of great help in this situation and to also remove the notion of being unable to develop big men.
However, unfortunately, when you make such statements, some members on this board will declare you a troll and announce you as a fan of a different blue. I have done it before and one poster called my post as a 'negative recruiting advertisement'. Well, the word is on the street now and being talked among high school coaches and former players. We will see what will be done to quell this notion.

All I hope and wish now are two things:

1. We pull of major top 10 recruit within next two years for PF or C positions.
2. Mason doesn't drop in to second round of next year's draft by coming back. The pounding would be relentless if that happens.

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Thoroughly unconvincing argument. Are any kids projected as lottery picks based on only one attribute? As pointed out, Mason rebounds at a better rate than Sullinger, who is projected as a lottery pick whose best attribute is being huge in the paint. Rebounding is part of being huge in the paint.
I wish the NBA was as uninterested in me as they are in Mason.

Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.

DukieInBrasil
04-13-2012, 02:42 PM
Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.

What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.

Mike Corey
04-13-2012, 02:44 PM
The NBA is not uninterested in Mason. That's not a guess.

Mason has to develop a consistent and more varied repertoire of moves on offense, needs to be a more reliable defender, needs to develop a mid-range game, needs to be a better finisher around the basket (more dunks? Yes), and so on and so forth.

Still, he nearly averaged a double double, and is a superb athlete.

He's poised to have a Zeller-like senior season. He needs an offseason of development and effort like the one that Thomas Robinson just had. And his stock will rise accordingly.

MChambers
04-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Two things I am reasonably sure of are Mason's "development goals" have already been defined but neither the staff nor Mason are going to post the list on DBR. We all are going to have to push the "I believe" button and move on. I'm excited Mason has decided to return to Duke for his senior season and look forward to him having a stellar season. I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.

Gosh, here I was thinking that the team and the coaches checked DBR for goal and strategy advice. :)

SoCalDukeFan
04-13-2012, 03:24 PM
is the pick and role with Mason and Austin a la Malone and Stocton.

SoCal

azzefkram
04-13-2012, 03:37 PM
Ok.

I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

EDIT: Follow-on point, relating back to the article: this has nothing to do with how Coach runs the offense and helps show why Mason is not an elite NBA prospect.

D-Rebounding was an issue because unless MP1 and MP2 were on the court together we had 4 poor rebounders surrounding one very good to excellent rebounder. The Brothers Plumlee were not the cause of our rebounding woes.

With respect to the turnovers, not all of the turnovers credited to him are solely his fault. If our guards feed the ball to his shins, taking our 6'10" PF/C and turning him into Spud Webb well he's going to lose some of them.

Gewebe14
04-13-2012, 03:56 PM
What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.

My argument is that Duke's system has nothing to do with why Mason is not a lottery pick, or, an elite level NBA talent as his HS coach suggests he should be.

And then went on to imply that he just isn't that good, and gave as supporting evidence that he is a poor shooter, turns the ball over a lot, and isn't great at rebounding (which it turns out was mostly wrong) and that none of those things have much do with K's offense system.

Scorp4me
04-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Well, the word is on the street now and being talked among high school coaches and former players.

Baloney! If you want to give me a break down of the heights of the "big men coaches" of say...the top 50 teams in college basketball to support your argument I'll listen. Otherwise it's just an argument put out there like "Duke gets all the calls" that I'm not going to be duped into believing.

Bob Green
04-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Baloney! If you want to give me a break down of the heights of the "big men coaches" of say...the top 50 teams in college basketball to support your argument I'll listen. Otherwise it's just an argument put out there like "Duke gets all the calls" that I'm not going to be duped into believing.

I agree! I don't have the time or inclination to research the top 50 teams, but looking a few miles down the road, Assistant Coach C.B. McGrath is 5'11" and Assistant Coach Jerod Haase (moved on to UAB) is 6'3". Both guys are former guards who played for Coach Roy Williams at Kansas. The third assistant coach is Steve Robinson but I couldn't find out how tall he is due to my image search on Google not providing images of Assistant Coach Robinson standing in front of a cinder block wall. However, his personal profile over at a Carolina fansite that I am not admitting to visiting includes the following statement:


Robinson works directly with the Tar Heel perimeter players, helping to mentor Cousy Award-winning point guards Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson.

It appears Carolina's big men are coached by a former guard who use to play for the head coach. Hmm, sounds familiar...

gethlives
04-13-2012, 04:33 PM
To me the whole issue is not whether or not Duke can develop a big man--clearly they have done a great job with many "bigs" through the years, the issue is whether or not they can develop a back to the basket big man. If you were a high schooler who fancied himself as a more traditional center type who was going to score in that way, would you choose to go to a school like Duke that values the 3 or outside game more or would you go to a school like Carolina who always looks to go inside? In other words if you were Tyler Zeller where would you look to go? If you were a 6-11 guy who fancied himself someone who likes to come away from the basket to shoot 3 pointers, and occasionally drive to score, where would you go? In other words if you were Ryan Kelly where would you look to go?


I see Mason Plumlee as a player best suited for a back to the basket game which is why he may never achieve his full potential at Duke. Now, that is not to say that K should adjust his system to make room for Mason's abilities.

gus
04-13-2012, 06:21 PM
I agree! I don't have the time or inclination to research the top 50 teams, but looking a few miles down the road, Assistant Coach C.B. McGrath is 5'11" and Assistant Coach Jerod Haase (moved on to UAB) is 6'3". Both guys are former guards who played for Coach Roy Williams at Kansas. The third assistant coach is Steve Robinson but I couldn't find out how tall he is due to my image search on Google not providing images of Assistant Coach Robinson standing in front of a cinder block wall. However, his personal profile over at a Carolina fansite that I am not admitting to visiting includes the following statement:



It appears Carolina's big men are coached by a former guard who use to play for the head coach. Hmm, sounds familiar...

Don't forget that Pete Newell, the patron saint of all big man coaches, was 6'2.

wilko
04-13-2012, 06:29 PM
Two things I am reasonably sure of are Mason's "development goals" have already been defined but neither the staff nor Mason are going to post the list on DBR.
Tru nuff. And they shouldn't HAVE to post it on DBR.. but the point remains this static will be present until the "perception" changes... but how can you change the perception to something you cant openly measure?
Mr Chicken, meet Mr Egg...


We all are going to have to push the "I believe" button and move on.
Easier for me than for a recruit being wooed.


I'm excited Mason has decided to return to Duke for his senior season and look forward to him having a stellar season. I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.
Ditto Happy that Masons happy. Hope Cook blossoms and Sheed is ready for Prime-time.
Gaines - who He? was he the publisher of EC comics back in the 50's? and I thought Brad was the best coach ever at UNC. too bad they ran him off...

WiJoe
04-13-2012, 06:42 PM
He's poised to have a Zeller-like senior season.

That would be quite impressive, although we don't need him tipping in opponents' misses.

:eek:

Wheat/"/"/"
04-13-2012, 08:08 PM
Arguing the height/size of the big man coach as a factor regarding a players development is just plain...dumb.

The quality of the coaching is what matters, and I'd argue Mason's big man coach(Wojo) is not the issue. Mason has fundamentally improved, and it looks like he's had good coaching, but he has not been used as effectively, individually, as I think he could have been.

That decision has to be attributed to coach K.

Coach K has chosen to play a wing oriented game the past few seasons, with Mason generally at the high post. He has not been the main focus of the offense close to the basket, which is where I personally think the strength of his game lies.

That's just my two cents, and I respect a hall of fame coach for doing what he thinks was best for his team. He won a lot of games against some very good teams doing it his way, so as a fan, my second guessing of his decisions should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'd have used his strength and speed to secure the prime real estate on the low block. Own it, like Hansbrough did, and as a better athlete than TH, he could.
Get low, spread arms, bend the knees and hold the prime spot. He's quick/strong enough to get that position, and any division 1 guard can make that entry pass with the will to do it. I'd have Mason turn and take his shots quickly, power up and draw fouls, even if I sacrificed some shooting % due to his lack of touch. When defenses had to double down, and they would or get dunked on alot, the shooters would have had more space.

That's what I'd have done from my spot on the couch.

I don't buy the argument that Duke guards weren't good enough passers bla, bla, bla....sure they are. They are high level, elite guards. What was lacking was the commitment to play to the low post by coach K. He believed his team played stronger from outside in, not inside out.

I think coach K has played to what he has thought was his teams strengths the past two seasons, and that didn't include a real commitment to Mason in the low post offense. He may have very well made the right decision, because Duke has won a lot of games. Who knows if the style of play I would have liked to see would have won as many games?

I'd be willing to bet a fly on the wall would report that when Mason made the decision to return in coach K's office, there was a discussion of how he would be used a whole lot more in the paint next season.

CajunDevil
04-13-2012, 08:24 PM
I guarantee you Duke would no longer have a perception issue with respect to an inability to develop big men. I can wish, right :)

The two recruits' comments below, the Daugherty comments, and what "everyone thinks" (to quote Parker) will be used against us until (1) we make a change and get a big big-man coach, or (2) we have a big man who comes in under the radar and develops into...Kevin McHale (slightly exaggerating to make my point). If we stay status quo then it will be very challenging to get a stud big, imo.

Tony Parker
His chief concern is one that Parker says "everyone thinks." "Just the development of their big men is something that concerns me," Parker said... "I really like Duke. I just can't honestly say that I'm 100 percent comfortable with a guard teaching me about the post. Coach [Steve] Wojciechowski is like 5-foot-6."
http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/7717492/tony-parker-recruiting-roundtable


Mitch McGary
The con for Duke would be the perception that all their big men do is set screens and rebound and that they donít get a lot of touches.
http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/boys-basketball/post/_/id/746/mitchs-memos-d-day-looms

Newton_14
04-13-2012, 10:08 PM
I guarantee you Duke would no longer have a perception issue with respect to an inability to develop big men. I can wish, right :)

The two recruits' comments below, the Daugherty comments, and what "everyone thinks" (to quote Parker) will be used against us until (1) we make a change and get a big big-man coach, or (2) we have a big man who comes in under the radar and develops into...Kevin McHale (slightly exaggerating to make my point). If we stay status quo then it will be very challenging to get a stud big, imo.

Tony Parker
His chief concern is one that Parker says "everyone thinks." "Just the development of their big men is something that concerns me," Parker said... "I really like Duke. I just can't honestly say that I'm 100 percent comfortable with a guard teaching me about the post. Coach [Steve] Wojciechowski is like 5-foot-6."
http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/7717492/tony-parker-recruiting-roundtable


Mitch McGary
The con for Duke would be the perception that all their big men do is set screens and rebound and that they donít get a lot of touches.
http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/boys-basketball/post/_/id/746/mitchs-memos-d-day-looms

Number 2 has already happened though. Williams, Shelden.

Like I said in the other thread, until a Duke big man averages 15 or 16 ppg or more for the season, the myth will continue. Duke has not had a big come in as a prolific scorer in the past several years. McRoberts averaged 13 as a Soph and had he stayed, would have likely increased that number, but he left. Lance was not a prolific scorer, and neither was Zoubs.

Next up was Miles, who dominated in practice but could never quite put it together offensively in games. He was a good shooter, and you could argue that he deserved more touches than he got, and probably could have averaged 9 or 10 points per game if he would have averaged say 26/27 minutes a game and gotten more touches. Was he under utilized on offense? Maybe, but even with more minutes and more touches I think his ceiling would have been in the 10ppg to 12ppg. Playing behind Zoubs, Mason and Ryan meant not really getting enough minutes to do that.

That leads up to Mason and Ryan. Ryan averaged 11.8 this season, and Mason 11.1. Not bad numbers at all, especially for a team that supposedly lives and dies by the 3. Both kids have improved, developed, progressed, etc quite a bit since their Freshman years. I think both can and will raise their averages next year as Seniors.

To say Mason has regressed is poor form on Brad's part as it's just not accurate. Mason was allowed to try to play as a face up 4 as a freshman and part of his Soph year, but an inconsistent shot foiled that plan. So K switched him to a back to the basket 5, and he now has been playing that role for 1.5 seasons. I think he has come along nicely. I do think he should have gotten more touches, but he could have also done more with the touches he did get. The offensive approach K took this year could have been better in terms of getting the bigs in good position to score, and the guards could have done a much better job of getting Mason the ball in a scoring position. So if you add it all up (Mason performs better with his touches, K tweaks the offense to get Mason the ball in better spots, and the guards get better at getting him the ball in scoring position) and instead of averaging 11.1, Mason averages 15 or 16.

He is very close to being an All American type player. He just needs to break through that final door and get it done. If we get improvement in all 3 of the areas I mentioned next year, that will be Step 1 in changing the perceptions. Step 2 is for some of these bigs who are highly offensively skilled at birth, to choose Duke instead of turning them down.

Patrick Patterson would have thrived at Duke. He would have been a perfect fit on offense and defense. Greg Monroe would have thrived at Duke, and Brandon Wright would have thrived at Duke. Had 2 or all 3 of those guys chosen Duke, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't, so it is what it is.

Given how the media works these days, signing just 1 of those type big men after Mason's big year next season, and it will change the perception.

miramar
04-13-2012, 10:24 PM
Don't forget that Pete Newell, the patron saint of all big man coaches, was 6'2.

that perhaps the most important part of the big man camp was footwork. Since when do you have to be 6-10 to teach footwork?

But unfortunately, logic seems to have gone out the window on this topic, so maybe the only solution is to have Carlos, Shelden, Elton, and Luol call Tony P and tell him that they developed just fine at Duke.

CoachJ10
04-14-2012, 11:42 AM
Arguing the height/size of the big man coach as a factor regarding a players development is just plain...dumb.

The quality of the coaching is what matters, and I'd argue Mason's big man coach(Wojo) is not the issue. Mason has fundamentally improved, and it looks like he's had good coaching, but he has not been used as effectively, individually, as I think he could have been.

That decision has to be attributed to coach K.

Coach K has chosen to play a wing oriented game the past few seasons, with Mason generally at the high post. He has not been the main focus of the offense close to the basket, which is where I personally think the strength of his game lies.

That's just my two cents, and I respect a hall of fame coach for doing what he thinks was best for his team. He won a lot of games against some very good teams doing it his way, so as a fan, my second guessing of his decisions should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'd have used his strength and speed to secure the prime real estate on the low block. Own it, like Hansbrough did, and as a better athlete than TH, he could.
Get low, spread arms, bend the knees and hold the prime spot. He's quick/strong enough to get that position, and any division 1 guard can make that entry pass with the will to do it. I'd have Mason turn and take his shots quickly, power up and draw fouls, even if I sacrificed some shooting % due to his lack of touch. When defenses had to double down, and they would or get dunked on alot, the shooters would have had more space.

That's what I'd have done from my spot on the couch.

I don't buy the argument that Duke guards weren't good enough passers bla, bla, bla....sure they are. They are high level, elite guards. What was lacking was the commitment to play to the low post by coach K. He believed his team played stronger from outside in, not inside out.

I think coach K has played to what he has thought was his teams strengths the past two seasons, and that didn't include a real commitment to Mason in the low post offense. He may have very well made the right decision, because Duke has won a lot of games. Who knows if the style of play I would have liked to see would have won as many games?

I'd be willing to bet a fly on the wall would report that when Mason made the decision to return in coach K's office, there was a discussion of how he would be used a whole lot more in the paint next season.

Not sure how many games you actually watched this season to make these comments.

On plenty of occasions, there was a big commitment by K and the team to get Mason the ball in the low blocks. Unfortunately Mason is still working on all the things you mentioned above (getting position on the low block, making quick and powerful moves to the hoop, and passing effectively out of double teams when they collapse on him) as a result, it was not as significant a part of our offense as it could have been.

It was not a lack of effort to involve MP2 in the kind of back-to-the-back offense that you are outlining...it was merely the execution was not as good or as consistent as we had hoped.

jimsumner
04-14-2012, 12:46 PM
Wheat,

Seth Curry led Duke this year with 2.4 assists per game. This was the lowest apg average to ever lead Duke. In the shot clock era, Duke has never had anything remotely close to this astonishingly low total. Seth Curry was playing out of position, Tyler Thornton was in for his defense and Quinn Cook was rehabbing a knee. Duke simply did not have quality ACC point-guard play and that was a large part of Duke's inability to adequately utilize Mason (and Miles) Plumlee.


Next season? Thornton certainly could improve. But Duke's best bet--IMO-- is a healthy and confident Quinn Cook winning and holding the starting PG spot.

And none of this is to suggest that Mason cannot continue to improve his ability to get proper position and make quicker and better decisions once he gets the ball where and when he needs it. But he has to get the ball where and when he needs it.

Newton_14
04-14-2012, 02:05 PM
Wheat,

Seth Curry led Duke this year with 2.4 assists per game. This was the lowest apg average to ever lead Duke. In the shot clock era, Duke has never had anything remotely close to this astonishingly low total. Seth Curry was playing out of position, Tyler Thornton was in for his defense and Quinn Cook was rehabbing a knee. Duke simply did not have quality ACC point-guard play and that was a large part of Duke's inability to adequately utilize Mason (and Miles) Plumlee.


Next season? Thornton certainly could improve. But Duke's best bet--IMO-- is a healthy and confident Quinn Cook winning and holding the starting PG spot.

And none of this is to suggest that Mason cannot continue to improve his ability to get proper position and make quicker and better decisions once he gets the ball where and when he needs it. But he has to get the ball where and when he needs it.

Great post Jim. I watched the Duke at UNC game again last night, and will be watching others in the next few weeks to focus on the post play and passing. Mason was actually far more active in that game than I remembered, and played well when he got the ball in the right spots. But he was missed oh so many times when a window of opportunity opened up. Sometimes he (and Miles) were flat out ignored on those chances, and sometimes the guards saw the opening too late. Even with the barrage of 3's in that game, Mason could have had a much bigger night.

As you note in your post, the 2.4 number is just mind boggling low. Embarrassing to be honest, and it directly led to fewer chances for Mason, Miles, and to a lesser degree Ryan. We are living in an era where the defenses are consistently better than the offenses in college ball, it is not a simple task to get a big open on the low block, and then get him the ball in the nano second of time that the window for the pass remains open. Guys like Kendall Marshall and Aaron Craft make it look easy, but those guys are rare.

Even the Taylor kid at Kansas was great at the pick and roll with Robinson. In one of the final four games they ran a pick and roll on the side of the lane, with Taylor come from the corner, off the screen and curling into the middle of the lane. Taylor dropped a beautiful bounce pass right through the two defenders, and Robinson took one step and dunked. I thought man, Mason or Miles would have loved seeing a perfect pass on a play like that. The pass matters. When the pass is there, where the big can easily grab it, the chances of fumbling it or breaking stride goes way down. Duke had no one capable of making those type passes this year.

If Cook can get healthy, and Suliamon is as good of a passer as he is a defender, it will greatly improve Mason's chances of having a big year.

Rich
04-14-2012, 03:48 PM
If Suliamon is as good of a passer as he is a defender, it will greatly improve Mason's chances of having a big year.

Is that wishful thinking or does he have a reputation for being a good passer? I know his reputation for defense precedes him.

miramar
04-14-2012, 04:26 PM
Wheat,

Seth Curry led Duke this year with 2.4 assists per game. This was the lowest apg average to ever lead Duke. In the shot clock era, Duke has never had anything remotely close to this astonishingly low total. Seth Curry was playing out of position, Tyler Thornton was in for his defense and Quinn Cook was rehabbing a knee. Duke simply did not have quality ACC point-guard play and that was a large part of Duke's inability to adequately utilize Mason (and Miles) Plumlee.

The 2.4 represented more than a 50% drop from 2010 (Nolan 5.1) and 2009 (John 4.9). And neither one was a natural point guard.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-14-2012, 05:48 PM
The 2.4 represented more than a 50% drop from 2010 (Nolan 5.1) and 2009 (John 4.9). And neither one was a natural point guard.

I'd argue those stats show a team that "would not" pass effectively, (lets call it the Austin effect), not necessasarilly a team that "could not". And we are back to my lack of commitment to get it in the low post for easy baskets observation.

CoachJ10...I saw most of the conference games and the bigger non conference games. When Duke was playing better teams, Mason was not a real focus offensively in the low post. The effort was just not there, IMO. At least not at the level I think he should have been involved in the big games.

jimsumner
04-14-2012, 06:40 PM
I'd argue those stats show a team that "would not" pass effectively, (lets call it the Austin effect), not necessasarilly a team that "could not". And we are back to my lack of commitment to get it in the low post for easy baskets observation.

CoachJ10...I saw most of the conference games and the bigger non conference games. When Duke was playing better teams, Mason was not a real focus offensively in the low post. The effort was just not there, IMO. At least not at the level I think he should have been involved in the big games.

Trust me, if Tyler Thornton could have averaged 4.0 assists per game, he would have. It wasn't a lack of committment.

Duke did not have quality passing from its point guards. I don't see how that point (ha! ha! I break myself up) could possibly be in dispute.

Post players benefit from better point-guard play and suffer from poorer point-guard play. I don't see how that could possibly be in dispute.

Indoor66
04-14-2012, 07:14 PM
Trust me, if Tyler Thornton could have averaged 4.0 assists per game, he would have. It wasn't a lack of committment.

Duke did not have quality passing from its point guards. I don't see how that point (ha! ha! I break myself up) could possibly be in dispute.

Post players benefit from better point-guard play and suffer from poorer point-guard play. I don't see how that could possibly be in dispute.

It's not in dispute, it's not in dispute, Jim. :cool:

OldPhiKap
04-14-2012, 07:42 PM
Trust me, if Tyler Thornton could have averaged 4.0 assists per game, he would have. It wasn't a lack of committment.

Duke did not have quality passing from its point guards. I don't see how that point (ha! ha! I break myself up) could possibly be in dispute.

Post players benefit from better point-guard play and suffer from poorer point-guard play. I don't see how that could possibly be in dispute.


2557

Newton_14
04-14-2012, 08:13 PM
I'd argue those stats show a team that "would not" pass effectively, (lets call it the Austin effect), not necessasarilly a team that "could not". And we are back to my lack of commitment to get it in the low post for easy baskets observation.

CoachJ10...I saw most of the conference games and the bigger non conference games. When Duke was playing better teams, Mason was not a real focus offensively in the low post. The effort was just not there, IMO. At least not at the level I think he should have been involved in the big games.

Again this is just not true. You tell on yourself every time you make statements like this. The Kansas game and Ohio State games are just two examples. Mason got the ball early and often and performed well.

Regarding our guards lack of ability to pass, if you want to doubt me, then fine, no biggie, but doubting Jim Sumner who sat courtside for every single home game is just down right silly. I think we know our team much better than folks who caught a handful of games on TV, and just bought into the inaccurate media hype. Passing matters. It was a combination of guards not having the ability to pass on time, in the right place, and with the right "touch", with guards looking for their own shot and ignoring the open post guy.

It reached the point where it was so bad, K dialed it back and put more focus on shooting 3's.

Newton_14
04-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Is that wishful thinking or does he have a reputation for being a good passer? I know his reputation for defense precedes him.

Wishful thinking at the moment. He is going to be a good one though. I am anxious to see how good his court vision is and how well he passed the ball. He tweeted last night that K told him to prepare to play some point, so there must be something there. That also might be a signal that Thornton is used as a backup wing defender vs a point guard. I assume Cook would be the starting PG backed up by Rasheed. Rasheed would be used at the 2 and at the 1.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-14-2012, 08:28 PM
Post players benefit from better point-guard play and suffer from poorer point-guard play. I don't see how that could possibly be in dispute.

It's not, at least from me.

My argument for lack of commitment was from coach K, not Tyler, or Seth, or Austin...He had Mason at the high post most of the time, or at least during prime time. It's hard to feed the post when there is no post :)

jipops
04-14-2012, 09:18 PM
It's not, at least from me.

My argument for lack of commitment was from coach K, not Tyler, or Seth, or Austin...He had Mason at the high post most of the time, or at least during prime time. It's hard to feed the post when there is no post :)

Just because he was in one area of the paint doesn't mean he wasn't in the other.

NashvilleDevil
04-14-2012, 09:29 PM
I agree with your assessment. A big coach who has played either PF or C position would be of great help in this situation and to also remove the notion of being unable to develop big men. However, unfortunately, when you make such statements, some members on this board will declare you a troll and announce you as a fan of a different blue. I have done it before and one poster called my post as a 'negative recruiting advertisement'. Well, the word is on the street now and being talked among high school coaches and former players. We will see what will be done to quell this notion.

All I hope and wish now are two things:

1. We pull of major top 10 recruit within next two years for PF or C positions.
2. Mason doesn't drop in to second round of next year's draft by coming back. The pounding would be relentless if that happens.

It's not that posters are talking about Wojo being small for a big man coach. It's when asked to name a big man coach on a top 50 team who was a PF or C you cannot do it. That is why people are considered trolls. That and the fact this comes up every year.

CDu
04-14-2012, 09:42 PM
It's not, at least from me.

My argument for lack of commitment was from coach K, not Tyler, or Seth, or Austin...He had Mason at the high post most of the time, or at least during prime time. It's hard to feed the post when there is no post :)

Jim is saying that the coaching staff wanted to get Mason involved. The players just weren't good at it. So, yes, you are in fact disputing what he said.

You clearly don't watch much of the Duke games if you think Mason spent most of his time in the high post. And if you think Mason wasn't involved offensively against some of the better teams we played.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-15-2012, 08:37 AM
Jim is saying that the coaching staff wanted to get Mason involved. The players just weren't good at it. So, yes, you are in fact disputing what he said.

You clearly don't watch much of the Duke games if you think Mason spent most of his time in the high post. And if you think Mason wasn't involved offensively against some of the better teams we played.

I don't doubt the staff wanted him involved. It's the decision of how to involve him that I challenge.

Mason was used too far from the basket too much of the time to be as effective as I think he could have been.

That's really all I'm trying to say.

When I say "low post" I mean having at least one foot inside the lane, or being at the front of the rim at the charge circle when the pass is received.

Mason was used at the high post, or at let's call it the wide post,(a step outside the lane), most of the time. He usually had three options. Pass, put it on the floor and drive, or shoot a mid range jumper.

He should catch the ball in a position on the floor where "dunk" is one of his options.