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JMarley50
11-26-2011, 12:04 PM
I know its still a few days away and most people's minds are on the football game today (GTHC!!) but I am anxious to discuss the huge match-up with Ohio St.

This is probably the biggest game in an amazing stretch of games against high quality opponents. It will be another great test for our guys and could solidify our spot among the nations top teams. I am most anxious to see how our bigs match-up with arguably the best big man in the league. Thoughts?

JayZee
11-26-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm really looking forward to this game.

However, I would argue that we already played, and won, the biggest game of our season. There are very few chances to compete for a championship each season, and in our first chance, the guys took care of business and with panache...

OSU will be a different challenge for sure. I look forward to Mason play D on another great post player. I'm also looking forward to seeing our backcourt match up against a great defensive player in Craft.

Go Duke.

JMarley50
11-26-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm really looking forward to this game.

However, I would argue that we already played, and won, the biggest game of our season. There are very few chances to compete for a championship each season, and in our first chance, the guys took care of business and with panache...

OSU will be a different challenge for sure. I look forward to Mason play D on another great post player. I'm also looking forward to seeing our backcourt match up against a great defensive player in Craft.

Go Duke.

I started to say "arguably" the biggest game instead of "probably" because I rode the fence on that one. Getting the hardware was definitely a great thing and hopefully it will make our guys crave more. But they say the next game is always the most important so I went with it. I also said Sullinger was "arguably" the best big guy in the league, because I think Mason may be making a case for himself! This game will be huge for him.

I haven't seen a lot of OSU this season. Are their shooters good enough to stretch our D out and keep them honest, or are we going to be able to pack it in a little and make life tough on Sullinger?

OldPhiKap
11-26-2011, 12:33 PM
First real away game, and against an excellent opponent with a different challenge than we've faced.

As with all of the prior games, we should learn something.

I will be curious to see our interior defense, and how our younger players perform in such a hostile atmosphere.

moonpie23
11-26-2011, 12:37 PM
school will be in session......we/they will learn a lot about us/them.......


OSU is very good....here's hoping we are on our game...

Bluedevil114
11-26-2011, 01:00 PM
This game will only add to a team that is continuing to develop. This game will tell us if Mason can play back to back solid games. To this date he has not been able to perform in consecutive games.

I am looking forward to seeing our team after traveling to New York for an emotional game then back to Durham for a lackluster first half against Davidson then a trip to Hawaii for three terrific games and a championship. This team has to be tired and if they can go to Ohio and win there will be a lot of talk about this team doing some big things come March and April.

This team has to be exhausted though. Thanks for another championship Duke!!

NSDukeFan
11-26-2011, 01:09 PM
This game will only add to a team that is continuing to develop. This game will tell us if Mason can play back to back solid games. To this date he has not been able to perform in consecutive games.

I am looking forward to seeing our team after traveling to New York for an emotional game then back to Durham for a lackluster first half against Davidson then a trip to Hawaii for three terrific games and a championship. This team has to be tired and if they can go to Ohio and win there will be a lot of talk about this team doing some big things come March and April.

This team has to be exhausted though. Thanks for another championship Duke!!

I am trying to figure out which game Mason hasn't been solid in.

Jderf
11-26-2011, 02:28 PM
I am trying to figure out which game Mason hasn't been solid in.

I don't think that it is outlandish to suggest that Mason has so far been great, but a little inconsistent. While clearly better than last season, he has definitely been up and down, posting less-than-impressive numbers in a couple of games (6 points and 5 rebounds against UM; 7 points and 5 rebounds against MSU). He has also put up some healthy double-doubles and, it has to be said, played well in back-to-back games twice already this year. Of course, how consistent he will be through the entire season remains to be seen, but at this point, it isn't unrealistic to suspect that this is going to be Mason's break-out year.

CrazieDUMB
11-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, why did Duke get Ohio St. instead of UNC?

zack2014
11-26-2011, 02:43 PM
Just out of curiosity, why did Duke get Ohio St. instead of UNC?

I believe it was because both UNC and Ohio St. were due to have home games this year. I am actually happy we get Ohio State. Win or lose I am sure that the guys will learn a lot from the tough schedule and hopefully it will help them in March.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2011, 03:33 PM
I believe it was because both UNC and Ohio St. were due to have home games this year. I am actually happy we get Ohio State. Win or lose I am sure that the guys will learn a lot from the tough schedule and hopefully it will help them in March.

I think it goes on last year's ratings. We won the title.

Plus, didn't they play each other last year?

throatybeard
11-26-2011, 07:23 PM
I think it goes on last year's ratings. We won the title.

Plus, didn't they play each other last year?

We won the official title, but they finished first in the regular season. I'm not sure how it actually works.

Bay Area Duke Fan
11-26-2011, 07:28 PM
I fear him in the same way that I feared Derrick Williams last March. But Sullinger plays on a much better team than last year's AZ Wildcats. It will take a great effort by all for Duke to prevail ... but we can do it!

arnie is still king
11-26-2011, 07:32 PM
I don't think that it is outlandish to suggest that Mason has so far been great, but a little inconsistent. While clearly better than last season, he has definitely been up and down, posting less-than-impressive numbers in a couple of games (6 points and 5 rebounds against UM; 7 points and 5 rebounds against MSU). He has also put up some healthy double-doubles and, it has to be said, played well in back-to-back games twice already this year. Of course, how consistent he will be through the entire season remains to be seen, but at this point, it isn't unrealistic to suspect that this is going to be Mason's break-out year.

I'm also on the Mason bandwagon and believe he's our most important player. I think we can lose any other player for a game or so and win about any game on the schedule; but losing Mason for a big game would against a talented frontcourt could be disastrous.

hq2
11-26-2011, 07:38 PM
He has also put up some healthy double-doubles and, it has to be said, played well in back-to-back games twice already this year.

Yes, but I don't think he's done it twice in a row against QUALITY COMP. If he can put up , say, 15 and 10 against Sullinger, similar to what he did
against Kansas, we can start discussing how he's finally arrived. Till then, not totally convinced. More convinced, by the way, about RK. He's showing
it game in and game out, and will clearly get better. HE has arrived.

uh_no
11-26-2011, 07:56 PM
We won the official title, but they finished first in the regular season. I'm not sure how it actually works.

I'm pretty sure it's regular season rankings from the previous year.

It is the last year of the contract and UNC and OSU both needed 1 more home game to make it even over the course of the contract.


Note: I can't find any evidence to back this up, but it seems to be what my oft erroneous memory recalls

Jderf
11-26-2011, 08:08 PM
I'm also on the Mason bandwagon and believe he's our most important player. I think we can lose any other player for a game or so and win about any game on the schedule; but losing Mason for a big game would against a talented frontcourt could be disastrous.

Hmm. I'm not so sure he's our most important player. At least, not yet. At the moment I'd probably make the case for Seth as most important. But who knows? This team is spread so evenly that, by the end of the season, our most important player could be any of our starting five. In fact, you can't even rule out the potential for surprises from the bench.

In other words, it's going to be an exciting year.

Newton_14
11-26-2011, 08:28 PM
I don't think that it is outlandish to suggest that Mason has so far been great, but a little inconsistent. While clearly better than last season, he has definitely been up and down, posting less-than-impressive numbers in a couple of games (6 points and 5 rebounds against UM; 7 points and 5 rebounds against MSU). He has also put up some healthy double-doubles and, it has to be said, played well in back-to-back games twice already this year. Of course, how consistent he will be through the entire season remains to be seen, but at this point, it isn't unrealistic to suspect that this is going to be Mason's break-out year.

The only issue I take with the "inconsistent" label, is folks are only looking at points as the measure. Mason played a wonderful game against MSU imo. Free throws and an uncalled goal tend kept him out of double figures. However, he played great defense and had several hustle plays and assists, along with drawing numerous fouls.

It is fair to ding him for poor free throw shooting but overall I agree with NSDuke that Mason has been consistently good/great in all 7 games.

As for this game, I am cautiously optimistic. I think we match up well with OSU. If we can guard the perimeter consistently and stop dribble penetration, we should be able take OSU to the wire ala the Kansas game. After seeing how well the guys have performed thus far, I don't expect them to get rattled in the hostile environment, however, that is always a possibility on the road, so I can't discount it.

A 7-1 start for this team against a very tough schedule would be great, but 8-0 would be almost unreal. This is great opportunity for the guys. I hope they play well.

loran16
11-26-2011, 08:43 PM
The key for me is how the team reacts to Craft....he's quite possibly the best defending guard in the country. Craft will probably be on different players throughout the game - my bet is he starts on Curry but will be on Rivers at least part of the time, and definitely all of the time when Curry is out of the game (for the 5 minutes).

Craft will drive our guys nuts (I suspect he'll kill Rivers). So I would actually try and put the focus on using the guy he's not defending (and using a screen here and there to get him off of some guys every now and then). If he's on Rivers, Curry can run the offense looking for others. If he's on Curry, Rivers can drive.

Regardless, I doubt heavily that Craft will be on Dre, so Dre should see a lot of use in this game. He's likely key.

Overall we're probably heavy dogs in this game, but it is winnable if we hit our shots.

CajunDevil
11-26-2011, 08:51 PM
I think Mason is our most important player. He's our anchor on D and provides our only real threat on the block. I actually think Mason will bother Sullinger, as Sully has issues with taller, athletic players.

I feel very good about our chances on Tuesday. I look forward to seeing how our guys respond to the hostile environment.

CajunDevil
11-26-2011, 09:03 PM
The key for me is how the team reacts to Craft....he's quite possibly the best defending guard in the country. Craft will probably be on different players throughout the game - my bet is he starts on Curry but will be on Rivers at least part of the time, and definitely all of the time when Curry is out of the game (for the 5 minutes).

Craft will drive our guys nuts (I suspect he'll kill Rivers).


Wow...first, no one person in the NCAA can keep Rivers in front of them without giving up a wide open jumper. Austin's first step is the quickest I've ever seen on any level and Craft will not "kill" Rivers. Sorry, but that is absurd.

Secondly, we will not let Craft dictate what we do on offense. I would be willing to bet my Fuqua degree that K doesn't gameplan to avoid Craft...we must dictate the game and not play timid.

loran16
11-26-2011, 09:10 PM
Wow...first, no one person in the NCAA can keep Rivers in front of them without giving up a wide open jumper. Austin's first step is the quickest I've ever seen on any level and Craft will not "kill" Rivers. Sorry, but that is absurd.


This isn't even close to true - lay off the hyperbole please. It's certainly true that Rivers has the ability to get in front of guys pretty damn well, but far less than every time and Craft will be able to stay in front of him better than anyone this year. Meanwhile Rivers often has issues WHEN that happens as he wants to force it even when he hasn't lost his man (or he's been run into other defenders). He's getting better at this mind you - but it's clearly a work in progress. Craft will cause this issue a ton, thus "killing" Rivers, if Craft is on him. Also, Craft can frustrate Rivers by sticking with him enough given that he'll have Sullinger to back him up if Rivers gets by him eventually on a drive.



Secondly, we will not let Craft dictate what we do on offense. I would be willing to bet my Fuqua degree that K doesn't gameplan to avoid Craft...we must dictate the game and not play timid.

Who said we'd be playing timid? I didn't say avoid him at all costs, but we should take him into heavy account. We have a really good backcourt because well, we have multiple great options. This is where you take advantage by attacking the weaker defenders as much as possible.

CajunDevil
11-26-2011, 09:42 PM
What's not close to true?? There was no exaggeration in my comment...

loran16
11-26-2011, 09:46 PM
What's not close to true?? There was no exaggeration in my comment...

There is no player in basketball who can not be defended a good portion, if not the majority of the time (guards don't shoot 50% very often for a reason). This includes Rivers - he can get past guys pretty well, but he can't every time, which is not what your "no one can stay in front of him" statement implies. (It also implies he's the best driver in the country, which I'd argue is not true at the moment and is at least very debatable)

JMarley50
11-26-2011, 10:33 PM
Wow...first, no one person in the NCAA can keep Rivers in front of them without giving up a wide open jumper. Austin's first step is the quickest I've ever seen on any level and Craft will not "kill" Rivers. Sorry, but that is absurd.

Secondly, we will not let Craft dictate what we do on offense. I would be willing to bet my Fuqua degree that K doesn't gameplan to avoid Craft...we must dictate the game and not play timid.

I guess you never saw Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, or Kobe Bryant play....(just to name a few)

OldPhiKap
11-26-2011, 11:40 PM
So far, the key to defending Austin is not to stop him from driving. It's driving him to a secondary defender and hoping/assuming he will force up a shot.

WHEN he learns to balance his aggression with simple kick-outs, he has the potential to be an absolutely dominating force. And he has improved on that already, it seems to me.

As for Mason, he is certainly a key component to our engine. It seems to me that there is no superstar that is "the key" and no player who is so far behind to be "the liability." We have many players who can step up at any moment and everyone has an important role to play. Witness Tyler coming in for Austin when AR picked up his fourth foul against Kansas, and K left him out there to finish the game because his defense was so good. And, to Tyler's credit, he stepped it up on the offensive end as well to win the game.

There's no "big three" or "big two" on this team like in the last year or two. It is a collection of very talented players who, if we are lucky and K works his magic, can come together to be an incredible UNIT by March.

Mike Corey
11-26-2011, 11:52 PM
I don't think Craft will be guarding Rivers. He'll likely be guarding Curry. Craft is indeed a stellar defender. He has been building a reputation on defense since he was a 14-year old AAU player. He has tremendous footwork and body positioning and works as hard as any guard to dictate what his doe does. Curry will have to work.

Columbus has been buzzing about this game for months. That Urban Meyer will likely be addressing the fans at halftime of this game, and that a handful of celebrities will be sitting courtside (Lebron James is rumored to be among them), will have the din all the louder in the arena.

It will come down to perimeter play and taking care of the basketball, IMO. Sullinger and Buford are the go-to guys for the Bucks; will Duke be able to limit the production of their teammates? Will the Bucks have an answer for Kelly, or be able to play sufficient perimeter defense to keep Duke from getting hot from the outside? Will the Plumlees be able to stay out of foul trouble and keep up Duke's balanced offensive attack? Etc., etc.

I'll be fortunate to be at this game, sitting about as far away from the court as possible. Can't wait to see how this one shakes out.

CajunDevil
11-27-2011, 12:28 AM
I guess you never saw Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, or Kobe Bryant play....(just to name a few)

I have seen all of the above play, in person and in college (except for Kobe of course) and in their prime, and at this point in their respective careers I would put Austin's first step, especially with the dribble already started, right up there with them. It is truly an exceptional first step. I really don't think people realize how dominating a player Austin can be when he adjusts to the college game. This adjustment includes knowing when and how far to penetrate, when and where to shoot the daggers, and most importantly when, where and how to get the ball to his teammates. He must learn to trust his teammates, and I think he is starting to do that.

To be clear, I'm not saying Austin is as good as the three players above nor am I saying that he will ever be, but his exceptional first step is in the same league as theirs at this point in his career. imho.

OldPhiKap
11-27-2011, 12:29 AM
a handful of celebrities will be sitting courtside (Lebron James is rumored to be among them), will have the din all the louder in the arena.

I thought Lebron was personna non grata in Ohio?

In any event, as you state, the atmosphere will be absolutely electic and anti-Duke. Good work-up for conference road games. It will be very interesting to see how we respond. By and large, this team has shown a lot of grit for so early in the season given how young we are.

Really looking forward to this, regardless of the result. Although winning is always preferred.

uh_no
11-27-2011, 12:49 AM
with UNC losing, depending on what the pollsters do, this matchup could be for the #2 spot in the country

Mike Corey
11-27-2011, 12:59 AM
I thought Lebron was persona non grata in Ohio?

He certainly is, but he has a very good relationship with Coach Matta and the OSU basketball program.

uh_no
11-27-2011, 01:01 AM
He certainly is, but he has a very good relationship with Coach Matta and the OSU basketball program.

so long as "good relationship" doesn't involve trading free services for jerseys

Mike Corey
11-27-2011, 01:03 AM
so long as "good relationship" doesn't involve trading free services for jerseys

Too soon.

Funny, but too soon.

;)

Jim3k
11-27-2011, 02:22 AM
I have seen all of the above play, in person and in college (except for Kobe of course) and in their prime, and at this point in their respective careers I would put Austin's first step, especially with the dribble already started, right up there with them. It is truly an exceptional first step. I really don't think people realize how dominating a player Austin can be when he adjusts to the college game. This adjustment includes knowing when and how far to penetrate, when and where to shoot the daggers, and most importantly when, where and how to get the ball to his teammates. He must learn to trust his teammates, and I think he is starting to do that.

To be clear, I'm not saying Austin is as good as the three players above nor am I saying that he will ever be, but his exceptional first step is in the same league as theirs at this point in his career. imho.

As for the quickest first step you've ever seen, I dunno how you can put Rivers ahead of, say, Kyrie Irving. After all, a year hasn't even passed, so your memory can't yet be dimmed by the passage of time. Human beings can only be so quick. If Rivers' first step is demonstrably quicker than Irving's, I'll eat a Jeff Mullins sneaker (one of those he wore out after every game he played). Other superquick first steppers that come to mind in no particular order: Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, Lenny Wilkens, and our own Jay (JWill) Williams.

Hyperbole is fun, but given our recent Irving blessing, I think it's not worth debating the question.

Faison1
11-27-2011, 09:40 AM
OSU’s frontcourt certainly is imposing. This will arguably be the toughest test of the year in regards to defending a bunch of very good bigs. Here’s the breakdown according to ESPN:

Jared Sullinger, 6’9, 280 lbs. vs. Mason Plumlee, 6’10, 235

Deshaun Thomas, 6’7, 225 lbs. vs. Ryan Kelly, 6’11, 230

William Buford, 6’6, 220 lbs. vs. Andre Dawkins, 6’4, 200

We give up some weight, especially at center and small forward, but maybe we have an advantage in height, jumping, and rebounding. Also, Ryan Kelly has the potential to be a good matchup for us.

Can’t wait to see how Dre and Mason handle this situation.

CDu
11-27-2011, 10:26 AM
As for the quickest first step you've ever seen, I dunno how you can put Rivers ahead of, say, Kyrie Irving. After all, a year hasn't even passed, so your memory can't yet be dimmed by the passage of time. Human beings can only be so quick. If Rivers' first step is demonstrably quicker than Irving's, I'll eat a Jeff Mullins sneaker (one of those he wore out after every game he played). Other superquick first steppers that come to mind in no particular order: Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, Lenny Wilkens, and our own Jay (JWill) Williams.

Hyperbole is fun, but given our recent Irving blessing, I think it's not worth debating the question.

Without thinking at all about it, I'd put Irving, Jason Williams, Lawson, Felton, and Derrick Rose all ahead of Rivers in terms of first-step quickness.

Rivers is pretty quick, and he is very good at attacking off the dribble. But I agree that it's hyperbole to say he has the quickest first step one has ever seen.

Jderf
11-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Without thinking at all about it, I'd put Irving, Jason Williams, Lawson, Felton, and Derrick Rose all ahead of Rivers in terms of first-step quickness.

Rivers is pretty quick, and he is very good at attacking off the dribble. But I agree that it's hyperbole to say he has the quickest first step one has ever seen.

Hmm... I agree with most of those except for, surprisingly, Irving. For some reason, I don't remember Kyrie being that super-quick. Don't get me wrong, the kid is fast. But as fast as Lawson? or Rose? I never thought so. The way I saw it, Kyrie was able to get by his defenders because he was just so strong with the ball and always seemed to magically know (and avoid) the location of every defender's hand. He was just impossible to strip. Even in heavy traffic. Am I remembering things incorrectly?


(A little off-topic, sorry.)

Mike Corey
11-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Ryan Kelly has the potential to be a good matchup for us.

I suspect he will be the fulcrum of our game plan against the Bucks for that very reason.

Athletically, we'll have an advantage on the interior; on the perimeter, I'm concerned about how well we can keep the OSU guards--and Buford--out of the paint.

Buford is a great scorer. He likes catching and shooting on the elbow, either coming off screens or after evading his defender lagging in help defense. I think I worry more about what Buford can do to us than anyone else, because I know Sullinger will get his but I don't know which Buford will show up or how well we'll be able to defend him.

Kedsy
11-27-2011, 12:33 PM
I fear him in the same way that I feared Derrick Williams last March. But Sullinger plays on a much better team than last year's AZ Wildcats. It will take a great effort by all for Duke to prevail ... but we can do it!

Sullinger is a completely different type of player than Williams. So I don't entirely understand your point. But I agree that if Sullinger goes 5 for 6 from 3-point range against us, we'll be in trouble.

Troublemaker
11-27-2011, 01:16 PM
Agree with loran and Mike from above that Craft is a great defender. He will test Seth (or Austin)'s ball-handling and Duke's ball-handling and awareness in general as Craft is adept at coming from off the ball for steals, too. His defense, along with Sullinger's post-scoring and the 6'6" Buford's wing scoring are the three great concerns for Duke (as they are with most of OSU's opponents). Duke has to win along one of those three fronts. It's difficult to pull off a road win if the home team's three greatest strengths manifest themselves. So Duke has to have a clean ball-handling game, or Mason has to play Sullinger even, or Dawkins/Rivers --undersized relative to Buford-- have to keep Buford in check defensively. Preferably all three will go our way. But one of them needs to at the bare minimum.

tieguy
11-27-2011, 02:04 PM
The right way to think about Mason at this point in the season might be as our most irreplaceable player. If one of the guards has a bad day, another will step up. If Mason has a sub-par day it's not clear where boards and interior D will come from, and then we're in trouble. (It'd be nice to say "and interior scoring" but realistically none of our posts are great on that, except if you count Ryan as a post.) Sullinger will, of course, be his biggest test yet. I'm actually optimistic that Mason will hold his own; he might not "shut down" Sullinger in any meaningful way, but if can hold him to (say) 16-12 (he averages 18 and 11 in only 28 mpg so far) then we've got a great chance to win.

Dukehoops4
11-27-2011, 06:10 PM
Hi Everyone, First time poster here...
I didnt really know where to post this, but I guess it can tie into the game coming up on Tuesday night. I've been crazy about Duke basketball my whole life. I'm now 24 years old, and and very happy to say that this program has given me and my family great joy over the last several years. With that being said, I believe that this group of guys that we have in front of us this year, has the potential to be something special. I want to win on Tuesday just as much as everyone else does, but I believe that this is going to be a game (win or lose) that we will grow up an awful lot. I think that at the end of the year, we will be able to look at this game and say to ourselves "Man, Mason really solidified himself as a beast in the paint tonight", or " Wow, did Austin show that he can get to the line and convert against a quality team on the road tonight or what?!". I played four years of division III college basketball, and obviously I understand the difference between DI and DIII competition, but in being apart of college level ball, the growth and maturity of a team throughout the season is what means the most. We will grow on Tuesday, as a family..And if I were a bettin' man, I wouldn't wager against us:cool: Go Duke!

SilkyJ
11-27-2011, 06:52 PM
Pre-game (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205339215)Presser with some reflections on Maui as well.

OldPhiKap
11-27-2011, 08:59 PM
Hi Everyone, First time poster here...
I didnt really know where to post this, but I guess it can tie into the game coming up on Tuesday night. I've been crazy about Duke basketball my whole life. I'm now 24 years old, and and very happy to say that this program has given me and my family great joy over the last several years. With that being said, I believe that this group of guys that we have in front of us this year, has the potential to be something special. I want to win on Tuesday just as much as everyone else does, but I believe that this is going to be a game (win or lose) that we will grow up an awful lot. I think that at the end of the year, we will be able to look at this game and say to ourselves "Man, Mason really solidified himself as a beast in the paint tonight", or " Wow, did Austin show that he can get to the line and convert against a quality team on the road tonight or what?!". I played four years of division III college basketball, and obviously I understand the difference between DI and DIII competition, but in being apart of college level ball, the growth and maturity of a team throughout the season is what means the most. We will grow on Tuesday, as a family..And if I were a bettin' man, I wouldn't wager against us:cool: Go Duke!

Welcome, and very good points. This is why you schedule tough games!

I won't ask what school unless you want to volunteer it, but what position did you play?

Dukehoops4
11-27-2011, 09:12 PM
Welcome, and very good points. This is why you schedule tough games!

I won't ask what school unless you want to volunteer it, but what position did you play?

Thank you! And I agree, Coach K's scheduling is just one of the reasons he is the best. I played the "2" guard at a college in the state of NY.

roywhite
11-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Thank you! And I agree, Coach K's scheduling is just one of the reasons he is the best. I played the "2" guard at a college in the state of NY.

Welcome.

If you meet Coach K, best not to tell him you were a "2 guard". He likes players, not positions. :)

Kedsy
11-27-2011, 09:21 PM
The right way to think about Mason at this point in the season might be as our most irreplaceable player. If one of the guards has a bad day, another will step up. If Mason has a sub-par day it's not clear where boards and interior D will come from, and then we're in trouble.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I think it's pretty clear where our boards and interior D will come from if Mason can't play (or can't play well) for whatever reason. Putting aside Ryan Kelly, who for our current purposes we'll assume would already be playing big minutes alongside Mason, the rebounds and interior D will come from Miles. And a little from Josh.

So far this season, Mason averages 13.02 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 9.6% (532nd in nation) and a defensive rebound percentage of 28.9% (21st in nation). Miles averages 13.58 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 17.8% (40th in nation) and a defensive rebounding percentage of 23.2% (149th in nation). Josh, in limited minutes (32 mins for season), averages 16.25 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 29.1% and a defensive rebounding percentage of 20.9%.

So neither Miles or Josh quite equal Mason's defensive rebounding prowess, but they're both reasonable close and both are actually much better offensive rebounders than Mason. Their overall rebounding per minute numbers are better than Mason's, albeit in fewer minutes. And personally, I think Miles is at least as good an interior defender as Mason, and probably a little better.

My conclusion is Mason is having a really good year so far, but he's no more indispensible/irreplaceable than any of our other star players.

dcar1985
11-27-2011, 09:33 PM
I'm not sure what you mean, but I think it's pretty clear where our boards and interior D will come from if Mason can't play (or can't play well) for whatever reason. Putting aside Ryan Kelly, who for our current purposes we'll assume would already be playing big minutes alongside Mason, the rebounds and interior D will come from Miles. And a little from Josh.

So far this season, Mason averages 13.02 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 9.6% (532nd in nation) and a defensive rebound percentage of 28.9% (21st in nation). Miles averages 13.58 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 17.8% (40th in nation) and a defensive rebounding percentage of 23.2% (149th in nation). Josh, in limited minutes (32 mins for season), averages 16.25 rebounds per 40 minutes, with an offensive rebounding percentage of 29.1% and a defensive rebounding percentage of 20.9%.

So neither Miles or Josh quite equal Mason's defensive rebounding prowess, but they're both reasonable close and both are actually much better offensive rebounders than Mason. Their overall rebounding per minute numbers are better than Mason's, albeit in fewer minutes. And personally, I think Miles is at least as good an interior defender as Mason, and probably a little better.

My conclusion is Mason is having a really good year so far, but he's no more indispensible/irreplaceable than any of our other star players.


Thats where giving numbers and actually watching the game comes in....Mason has played head and shoulders above Miles and Josh to this point in the season. You don't really need any numbers to see that IMO.

Verga3
11-27-2011, 09:39 PM
Hi Everyone, First time poster here...
I didnt really know where to post this, but I guess it can tie into the game coming up on Tuesday night. I've been crazy about Duke basketball my whole life. I'm now 24 years old, and and very happy to say that this program has given me and my family great joy over the last several years. With that being said, I believe that this group of guys that we have in front of us this year, has the potential to be something special. I want to win on Tuesday just as much as everyone else does, but I believe that this is going to be a game (win or lose) that we will grow up an awful lot. I think that at the end of the year, we will be able to look at this game and say to ourselves "Man, Mason really solidified himself as a beast in the paint tonight", or " Wow, did Austin show that he can get to the line and convert against a quality team on the road tonight or what?!". I played four years of division III college basketball, and obviously I understand the difference between DI and DIII competition, but in being apart of college level ball, the growth and maturity of a team throughout the season is what means the most. We will grow on Tuesday, as a family..And if I were a bettin' man, I wouldn't wager against us:cool: Go Duke!

Welcome, Dukehoops4! I agree with your observations. Tuesday might be a watershed game in terms of the growth and confidence of Mason and Austin. It's a journey, as you already know from your experience. I have a current DIII student-athlete and a recent DI student-athlete. DIII is a fantastic blend of college and athletics. You know what I mean. Look forward to your joining the fray here at DBR!

Dukehoops4
11-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Welcome, Dukehoops4! I agree with your observations. Tuesday might be a watershed game in terms of the growth and confidence of Mason and Austin. It's a journey, as you already know from your experience. I have a current DIII student-athlete and a recent DI student-athlete. DIII is a fantastic blend of college and athletics. You know what I mean. Look forward to your joining the fray here at DBR!

Thank you very much! And you are absolutely right, I can't wait to see these boys continue to grow right in front of our eyes. Tuesday will be a great opportunity for us to come together, heck we have grown a great amount since our China trip! But again, thank you, and Im very excited to be here.

COYS
11-27-2011, 11:03 PM
It is so rare that Duke comes into a game as the underdog. I'd say it's only happened against UNC a few times and possibly in an away game against Wake Forest in 2009 since the end of the 2006-2007 season. I can't remember who was favored in the away UNC game last year, but this might be the first time that anyone on this team not named Miles has played a single game in which Duke wasn't favored to win. I might be missing a few more games, but being the underdog is definitely a rare occurrence for Duke.

The Buckeyes field a team that, in my opinion, is likely a bit better than UNC. They very well may be the best team we face all season before late March/early April =). It will be a great measuring stick for where we are now, as a team. Mason will match up against the best post player he'll see all season and our guards will face the best defense they'll see all season (except possibly FSU). We'll need Mason to play strong in the post, Ryan to help Mason rebound and to continue his solid offensive play, and the guards to hit their threes and value the basketball. Personally, I actually think we can let Sullinger work for his points against Mason while the rest of the team stays at home on OSU's other offensive threats. The Buckeyes can shoot the ball from three just as easily as they can dump it in the post. It will be crucial to limit their chances at an easy three points. Meanwhile, we will really have to value the basketball and take good shots. We don't want to give the OSU offense any extra possessions.

However, while OSU is really, really good. I like our chances. We've got the depth in the post to deal with Sullinger. We've got enough offensive firepower to keep up with them. And I think Curry, Mason, Miles, and Ryan, while playing new roles, have enough experience to handle the hostile environment. It will be a war, and the Buckeyes are favored for a reason, but we definitely have what it takes to walk out of Columbus with a W.

Saratoga2
11-28-2011, 07:29 AM
It is so rare that Duke comes into a game as the underdog. I'd say it's only happened against UNC a few times and possibly in an away game against Wake Forest in 2009 since the end of the 2006-2007 season. I can't remember who was favored in the away UNC game last year, but this might be the first time that anyone on this team not named Miles has played a single game in which Duke wasn't favored to win. I might be missing a few more games, but being the underdog is definitely a rare occurrence for Duke.

The Buckeyes field a team that, in my opinion, is likely a bit better than UNC. They very well may be the best team we face all season before late March/early April =). It will be a great measuring stick for where we are now, as a team. Mason will match up against the best post player he'll see all season and our guards will face the best defense they'll see all season (except possibly FSU). We'll need Mason to play strong in the post, Ryan to help Mason rebound and to continue his solid offensive play, and the guards to hit their threes and value the basketball. Personally, I actually think we can let Sullinger work for his points against Mason while the rest of the team stays at home on OSU's other offensive threats. The Buckeyes can shoot the ball from three just as easily as they can dump it in the post. It will be crucial to limit their chances at an easy three points. Meanwhile, we will really have to value the basketball and take good shots. We don't want to give the OSU offense any extra possessions.

However, while OSU is really, really good. I like our chances. We've got the depth in the post to deal with Sullinger. We've got enough offensive firepower to keep up with them. And I think Curry, Mason, Miles, and Ryan, while playing new roles, have enough experience to handle the hostile environment. It will be a war, and the Buckeyes are favored for a reason, but we definitely have what it takes to walk out of Columbus with a W.

We have seen some gloating on another string about the UNC loss. Anyone who doesn't think UNC is a very good team should think again. They have size, skill and experience, if not toughness inside. They have a very good point guard who doesn't turn the ball over and gets a lot of assists. They have an extremely talented small forward and a number of very good shooting guards. Still they lost on the road to a good team. The bottom line is they gave up 90 points, so their defense was weak.

Now we are going on the road against probably a better team. How do we beat them? Clearly we need to play defense like we did for 15 minutes of the second half against Kansas. We need to extend that to closer to 40 minutes against OSU. Clearly we will have difficulty keeping up the defensive intensity without getting more than 6 players minutes. Miles has to contribute. He should concentrate on defensive while in, although I don't think even his defense was sound against Kansas. His offense often leads to turnovers so he needs to play intense defense and only try to contribute offense on chippies nd putbacks. Josh will also be needed to lift the defensive intensity and perhaps add a couple of points here and there.

OSU guards the 3 point line very well so it will be hard for Seth and Andre to put up points from there. Seth is pretty cagey, so he will find ways to score some but neither guy should be forcing, since we need to keep our turnovers down to a minimum. Austin is kind of a key in this game since he can break the defense down. I would hope that he is gaining a better understanding of finding our big men or 3 point shooters if the path to the basket is not there. Because he can break people down they will back off of him on defense and he is likely to get 3 point shot opportunities. He needs to avoid silly fouls and turnovers. Tyler will get a lot of minutes and will provide ball pressure. We will need to make it hard to get the ball inside to Sullinger.

Our bigs inside need to stay aggressive. Mason showed some of what he can do against Kansas and Kelly has a very sound game. He can step out for a shot that is hard to bock. I would think Quinn could get time as he may be the best ball handler on the team and has shown some offense at times. Perhaps his defense will be getting good enough for his minutes to increase.

We will need fresh legs to keep the defensive pressure on for the entire game and minimize turnovers. There will be a hostile crowd, but we have played enough now to be able to handle that.

dukeballboy88
11-28-2011, 08:29 AM
The one game I watched OSU play, Sullinger was on the perimeter way more than I thought he would be. I saw other sides of his game I didnt know he had. He has trimmed down and looks like he has put on more muscle. He can bang 3's on you and he feeds the post well. The game I saw the other guy down low was doing damage I think it was Thomas. Yes it wasnt against a good NCAA team but just telling you guys what I saw.

I agree with someone earlier, if Sullinger stays out on the perimeter that can only be a good thing for Duke unless he goes Derrick Willimams on us.

NYBri
11-28-2011, 09:32 AM
....is going to have to get better fast. It's our obvious weakness, IMHO. We can't let them drive and shoot/dish like KU did in the first half. They are too good for us to make up for it elsewhere.

Offensively? Kelly is key. They have no answer for his game.

Looking forward to this one, but am not sure we will stay undefeated. This is a really tough game and this team hasn't experienced anything like it yet. Road. Quality opponent. Juiced up crowd. The place will be rocking'.

This will be good for AR. He needs to learn to cool the hot head a bit and learn the steely determination Nolan had for games like this.

About the first step discussion...who cares whose is quickest? AR's is mighty quick. Difference is what he does after that first step. Right now, he's learning, but is often too reckless and drives into traffic out of control. KI didn't have that problem as much.

Once AR cools his head and learns that the dish will open up the lanes for him later, he'll be a huge weapon for the good guys.

Wander
11-28-2011, 10:04 AM
So neither Miles or Josh quite equal Mason's defensive rebounding prowess, but they're both reasonable close and both are actually much better offensive rebounders than Mason. Their overall rebounding per minute numbers are better than Mason's, albeit in fewer minutes. And personally, I think Miles is at least as good an interior defender as Mason, and probably a little better.


If Miles Plumlee was a better rebounder and defender than Mason, then he wouldn't be seeing less than half the minutes that Mason gets in meaningful games.

I agree with the guy who called Mason Plumlee our most valuable player. I do think we're less dependent on individual players than in most years, and Miles is a capable backup, but when you have as many perimeter options as we do, in my opinion it makes sense to call the one guy who has good post offense and who is also the best interior defender the most important player (not the best, necessarily).

Mike Corey
11-28-2011, 10:43 AM
I can't freakin' wait for this game.

That's all I can muster at the moment, lest my head explode.

dcar1985
11-28-2011, 10:50 AM
I guess im the only one who thinks OSU is overrated...being from Columbus and knowing most of the kids on the team to be honest im not really sold on em. Outside of Sully, Buford, and maybe Thomas they don't really have much offense...

The other guys such as Smith, Sibert, and Ravenal have been playing well against lesser comp but I don't know if they're ready for the fight Duke is ready to hand them. They're stepping into new roles w/ the loses of Lighty and Diebler....

Remember OSU only went 6 sometimes 7 deep last year. Sully is going to get his but I do expect our bigs to make him work for it, the key is to not let Buford or one of the other guys go off unexpectedly. Crafts O is really raw, hes not a good shooter, has a decent cup game but nothing our guards can't handle.

Im really expecting Duke to go out there and take it to my hometown Buckeyes...I've been pumped about this game for a while and have talked my fair share of smack to all my friends.

Bluedog
11-28-2011, 10:53 AM
Based on the price of tickets, this is Ohio State's national championship game. They didn't even sell out the stadium when they played #7 Florida on the 15th, but with the Blue Devils coming to town, it always draws a crowd. :D That intensity from the crowd will likely translate to the players as well, so we better come out ready to play, which I expect we will. Frankly, I'd be mildly surprised with a victory, but I certainly think we're capable of doing it - it's just tough as our first true road game against the #3 team in the country. Either way, it's a good matchup to have on the schedule and we should grow from the game, win or lose. Sullinger will obviously get his points/rebounds, but we just need to prevent him from dominating. I could actually see Miles get more minutes as he's proven to be a solid post defender (more solid than Mason, in my mind, but Mason has been better on the offensive end and with rebounding). If we are getting open looks from 3 and nailing them down, then we have a great chance. If they're not falling, it could be a long night. While I don't think this is a "live by the three, die by the three"-type team normally, I think we need the three ball in this game to neutralize Ohio State's superior post play and I think it's the perimeter where we have the advantage to expose with four great shooters. It's going to be tough for Austin to get all the way to the rim in this one, I think, but drives and kickouts might work. Looking forward to it for sure. Should be a fun one!

Bluedog
11-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Pre-game (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205339215)Presser with some reflections on Maui as well.

Thanks for the link! I especially found it interesting to hear the journalists talk at about the 17 minute mark among themselves about Austin vs. Barnes' freshman year, etc. when they were waiting for Plumlee to show up. I'm sure they didn't know the camera was still on. Classic! Who is the guy in the green shirt on the righthand side with glasses? I thought based on his voice it was watzone, but doesn't look like him based on what I recall. He seemed like the most ardent Austin defender (in a good way). Although apparently I don't know my Duke journalists that well. ;) Is that Jim Sumner standing up in the blue? I hear these guys names and know their writing, but don't know what they look like, I guess.

Kedsy
11-28-2011, 11:59 AM
Thats where giving numbers and actually watching the game comes in....Mason has played head and shoulders above Miles and Josh to this point in the season. You don't really need any numbers to see that IMO.

Mason has been better than Miles and Josh so far this season, I agree. So what? Does that make him more indispensable than Seth or Austin or Ryan? The post I responded to asserted Mason was our "most irreplaceable player." The poster suggested that if something happens to Mason we don't have anybody who can step up and provide rebounding and interior defense.

I think it's pretty clear Miles can do those things and the numbers back me up. I also think, if necessary (and obviously I hope it won't be), Josh can step up into Miles current role, and in limited minutes the numbers seem promising there too.


If Miles Plumlee was a better rebounder and defender than Mason, then he wouldn't be seeing less than half the minutes that Mason gets in meaningful games.

I didn't say Miles was a better rebounder than Mason. I said he was a better offensive rebounder. Which he is. The numbers aren't even close, and if your eyes tell you Mason is a better rebounder on the offensive end than Miles, you need to visit an optometrist. I also said he's as good or better as an interior defender. Which I believe he is.

As for why Miles isn't playing so many minutes so far this season, I don't think it's as clear cut as you suggest. Miles is not nearly as good an offensive player as Mason and that's one reason he's not getting as many minutes right now. He's also been fouling at a much higher rate (5.14 fouls per 40 vs. 2.98 fouls per 40), and that's probably another reason. Ryan Kelly's emergence may be the biggest reason so far.

DukieInBrasil
11-28-2011, 12:17 PM
As for why Miles isn't playing so many minutes so far this season, I don't think it's as clear cut as you suggest. Miles is not nearly as good an offensive player as Mason and that's one reason he's not getting as many minutes right now. He's also been fouling at a much higher rate (5.14 fouls per 40 vs. 2.98 fouls per 40), and that's probably another reason. Ryan Kelly's emergence may be the biggest reason so far.
I agree with you Kedsy, but the optometrist part was a bit much.
As for the bold, in one game Miles was pulled after getting t'd up for yapping at the ref. Which points to one thing that i think K has limited Miles for, intelligent play. He gets the ball stolen from him after Oboards far too frequently, dribbles and gets it stolen etc. Miles is definitely a better O-bounder than Mase and much lesser offensive player. Overall, i think Miles is a decent substitute for what Mase brings to the table, but certainly not a better player this year. I'd like to see Miles play well vs OSU, if not better than Mason, at least better than he himself has played lately.

Wander
11-28-2011, 12:17 PM
I didn't say Miles was a better rebounder than Mason. I said he was a better offensive rebounder. Which he is. The numbers aren't even close, and if your eyes tell you Mason is a better rebounder on the offensive end than Miles, you need to visit an optometrist. I also said he's as good or better as an interior defender. Which I believe he is.

As for why Miles isn't playing so many minutes so far this season, I don't think it's as clear cut as you suggest. Miles is not nearly as good an offensive player as Mason and that's one reason he's not getting as many minutes right now. He's also been fouling at a much higher rate (5.14 fouls per 40 vs. 2.98 fouls per 40), and that's probably another reason. Ryan Kelly's emergence may be the biggest reason so far.

You said Miles was "close" as a defensive rebounder and "much better" as an offensive rebounder. Thus, your implication was that he was better overall at rebounding than Mason. I didn't change the spirit of what you said. The nitpicking is obnoxious.

Ryan Kelly doesn't have a whole lot to do with Miles' and Mason's minutes relative to each other. If anything, having another scoring weapon would mean that Duke could more afford to have a non-scoring threat like Miles on the floor. And not fouling is part of good defense.

dcar1985
11-28-2011, 12:23 PM
Mason has been better than Miles and Josh so far this season, I agree. So what? Does that make him more indispensable than Seth or Austin or Ryan? The post I responded to asserted Mason was our "most irreplaceable player." The poster suggested that if something happens to Mason we don't have anybody who can step up and provide rebounding and interior defense.

I think it's pretty clear Miles can do those things and the numbers back me up. I also think, if necessary (and obviously I hope it won't be), Josh can step up into Miles current role, and in limited minutes the numbers seem promising there too.

Right now I would argue it does....He's the most productive post player we've got right now, and is just playing w/ an intensity and swagger that is rubbing off on the rest of the team (Tebow Effect?). As much as it would joy me to see things click for Miles he doesn't have it...The game moves entirely to fast for him and he's a bit of a spaz. If Mason went down there is no way he even comes close to replacing what Mason is bringing to the team and that goes way beyond any numbers you can produce. To me its the same way K feels like the team plays better w/ Tyler, I could be wrong but I doubt K is sitting around looking at +/- for the lineup combinations. Its more about feel and whats really going on out there on the court.

Bluedog
11-28-2011, 12:32 PM
#3 Duke @ #2 Ohio State

UNC dropped to 5 and Duke received two first place votes (Ohio State got 17 and UK got 46). I'm actually surprised voters propelled Duke past UNC (and Syracuse). UMich is at 14, while Kansas is at 15 now. UNLV went to 18 and Harvard is still unranked somehow.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8WY9aIKMyX-dt3J41SG9Yace-rw?docId=2ef8c1037b1341d6856b7174e3bd0347

Edit: I guess Harvard is 27th as it was the second highest "others receiving votes":

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

Kedsy
11-28-2011, 12:40 PM
You said Miles was "close" as a defensive rebounder...

He is close. Both this year and over the course of their careers.


...and "much better" as an offensive rebounder.

He is. It's not close.


Thus, your implication was that he was better overall at rebounding than Mason.

I don't think that was my implication. Defensive rebounding is a much larger component of overall rebounding.


I didn't change the spirit of what you said. The nitpicking is obnoxious.

Sorry about the optometrist line. It wasn't directed at you but rather at the guy who said numbers don't matter because he could see with his eyes that Mason was a better player.

However, I believe you did mischaracterize the spirit my rebounding comments, so I don't think I was nitpicking.


Ryan Kelly doesn't have a whole lot to do with Miles' and Mason's minutes relative to each other. If anything, having another scoring weapon would mean that Duke could more afford to have a non-scoring threat like Miles on the floor.

I disagree with this. There are 80 minutes available for the 4/5 spots. Ryan is playing 8.5 more minutes a game than last year. If he wasn't, almost all of those minutes would be going to Miles. If Mason was playing 31 minutes to Miles's 24, I doubt you'd be saying it was so obvious that Mason is a better rebounder and defender, at least not based on minute count.


And not fouling is part of good defense.

Only if the fouls are defensive fouls. I don't have comparative numbers, but both Plumlees get their share of offensive and loose ball fouls. Also, while some defensive fouls suggest poor defense, that's not true for all of them.

ncexnyc
11-28-2011, 12:44 PM
I truly appreciate the time some people take in adding stats to their posts in an effort to support their analysis of the topic at hand, it's what makes DBR so much better than the run of the mill fan board. Unfortunately, at times things can get a bit out of hand when cherrypicking stats takes place.

From what I've seen so far this season, Mason is clearly the far superior player to either Miles or Josh, but then that is just my opinion and it's only based on the eye test.

I guess the next thread we'll be seeing is that we need to be running more plays for Tyler, because he's shooting 50% from beyond the arc.;)

AlaskanAssassin
11-28-2011, 12:57 PM
#3 Duke @ #2 Ohio State

UNC dropped to 5 and Duke received two first place votes (Ohio State got 17 and UK got 46). I'm actually surprised voters propelled Duke past UNC (and Syracuse). UMich is at 14, while Kansas is at 15 now. UNLV went to 18 and Harvard is still unranked somehow.




Does anyone know the site that gives you lists of each voters?

Kedsy
11-28-2011, 12:58 PM
The nitpicking is obnoxious.

My first post on this topic was to illustrate that Miles would be an adequate replacement if something happened to Mason, not to suggest Miles was a better player than Mason. Your response seemed to be a distortion of my position. I apologize if you thought it was obnoxious.

Bluedog
11-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Does anyone know the site that gives you lists of each voters?

pollspeak.com

This week's data doesn't appear to be up yet. Here's last week's:

http://www.pollspeak.com/component/option,com_psreport/Itemid,3/lang,en/p,40/p_1,40/r,F/r_1,F/s,18/s_1,18/t1,0/t1_1,0/t2,0/t2_1,0/v,0/v_1,0/w,3/w_1,3/

juise
11-28-2011, 01:52 PM
pollspeak.com

This week's data doesn't appear to be up yet. Here's last week's:

http://www.pollspeak.com/component/option,com_psreport/Itemid,3/lang,en/p,40/p_1,40/r,F/r_1,F/s,18/s_1,18/t1,0/t1_1,0/t2,0/t2_1,0/v,0/v_1,0/w,3/w_1,3/

Here's this week's poll analysis (http://http://www.pollspeak.com/component/option,com_psreport/Itemid,3/lang,en/p,40/p_1,40/r,T/r_1,T/s,18/s_1,18/t1,24/t1_1,24/v,0/v_1,0/w,4/w_1,4/) for Duke. #1 votes came from Joey Johnson and Jon Wilner.

westwall
11-28-2011, 02:37 PM
Could the news about his hiring be a distraction for the Buckeyes and their fans?? Football always ranks 1st in Columbus.

Kedsy
11-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Could the news about his hiring be a distraction for the Buckeyes and their fans?? Football always ranks 1st in Columbus.

Doubt it. Certainly not for the players and coaches. And probably not for the fans who reportedly are very worked up for the game.

DK

OldPhiKap
11-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Could the news about his hiring be a distraction for the Buckeyes and their fans?? Football always ranks 1st in Columbus.

I suspect that this game was circled in highlighter the day the schedule was announced. No way they are not super-geeked for us coming into town.

NSDukeFan
11-28-2011, 03:50 PM
I truly appreciate the time some people take in adding stats to their posts in an effort to support their analysis of the topic at hand, it's what makes DBR so much better than the run of the mill fan board. Unfortunately, at times things can get a bit out of hand when cherrypicking stats takes place.

From what I've seen so far this season, Mason is clearly the far superior player to either Miles or Josh, but then that is just my opinion and it's only based on the eye test.

I guess the next thread we'll be seeing is that we need to be running more plays for Tyler, because he's shooting 50% from beyond the arc.;)

I vote that if the shot clock is running down and there aren't any options and Tyler is open at the 3 point line, Get Him The Ball! ;)

nmduke2001
11-28-2011, 03:51 PM
The right way to think about Mason at this point in the season might be as our most irreplaceable player. If one of the guards has a bad day, another will step up. If Mason has a sub-par day it's not clear where boards and interior D will come from, and then we're in trouble. (It'd be nice to say "and interior scoring" but realistically none of our posts are great on that, except if you count Ryan as a post.) Sullinger will, of course, be his biggest test yet. I'm actually optimistic that Mason will hold his own; he might not "shut down" Sullinger in any meaningful way, but if can hold him to (say) 16-12 (he averages 18 and 11 in only 28 mpg so far) then we've got a great chance to win.

If either Mason or Sullinger clearly outplays the other it could result in big movement come draft day.

davekay1971
11-28-2011, 05:36 PM
If either Mason or Sullinger clearly outplays the other it could result in big movement come draft day.

I think the biggest potential is for upward movement for Mason if he outplays Sullinger. Sullinger, even if he gets outplayed, is likely going to be a top pick (my guess is top 3) based on a very, very good body of work AND tremendous upside (scary given how good he is already). Mason could open eyes and cement himself as a lottery pick if he outplays Sullinger. If he gets outplayed, on the other hand, I doubt it'll drop him much, as most pro scouts are probably expecting Sullinger to dominate the matchup tomorrow.

I'm excited for the matchup between the two. Mason is big, strong, and athletic enough to do well against Sullinger. It's a big, big task for him, so hopefully he brings it.

The other big key to the game is going to be perimeter defense. We've got to protect the 3 AND keep the OSU guards from getting penetration into the lane. Again, a big task.

Gewebe14
11-28-2011, 05:50 PM
I vote that if the shot clock is running down and there aren't any options and Tyler is open at the 3 point line, Get Him The Ball! ;)

I'd still try to get him the ball even if there are 2 dudes right in his face

DukieInBrasil
11-28-2011, 09:48 PM
I'm really hoping that Dre pulls another MSU vs OSU, just lights out for no apparent reason. Vs. MSU he hit 6 3s and several were guarded quite well with a couple of more where he was just kinda open. I think he had like one where he was wide open. He hasn't had a poor shooting night since, tho in the Davidson game he shot just 1-3 from 3 and overall. Plus it was on a big stage. @ OSU isn't the same as at MSG but it'll be on a prime-time ESPN stage, so there's some overlap there in terms of intensity and pressure. What i'm saying is, Dre has built in some muscle memory in how to perform at a high level in big games, let's hope it pays off.

Kelly and Plumlees vs. Sullinger and the OSU bigs ought to be an even match overall, so i think it's gonna come down to whose guards get better production. Hopefully Dawk opens it up from 3 for Austin to get good driving lanes and for Seth to get his midrange game going. I think OSU can defend one maybe 2 from beyond the stripe pretty well, but at the expense letting either Curry or Rivers (hopefully both) get quality 2pt FGs.

tieguy
11-28-2011, 10:24 PM
Perimeter defense is going to have to get better fast. It's our obvious weakness, IMHO.

Our 3 pt fg% defense is 90th in the country (agreed, not great); but our 2 pt fg% defense is worse (153rd in the country). So not sure the numbers back this up.

gcashwell
11-28-2011, 10:32 PM
Our 3 pt fg% defense is 90th in the country (agreed, not great); but our 2 pt fg% defense is worse (153rd in the country). So not sure the numbers back this up.

I think he means offenses are able to drive by our perimeter defense for high percentage 2 pt fg's.

OldPhiKap
11-28-2011, 10:41 PM
I think he means offenses are able to drive by our perimeter defense for high percentage 2 pt fg's.

Against some teams (like Michigan), that's the game plan though. You have to choose your medicine, and sometimes it's making sure they don't beat you from long range. So you body up on the perimeter and make them put the ball on the ground. 60% from 2 is the same as 40% from 3 (taking fouls and rebounds out of the math).

I'm not sure we have a lock-down defender or a huge on-point pressure guy like in some years, so we have to get the other team putting th eball on the floor and work for the turn-over or rushed-shot-rebound. I guess.

peterjswift
11-29-2011, 08:48 AM
According to the article on the main page, as well as the preview on ESPN.com, Paulus is the video coordinator for Ohio State. Do you think that gives them an edge at all? I can definitely see it being a benefit for them to get Paulus's opinions on the film they watch - whether or not that actually translates to a benefit on the floor is yet to be seen, but I can definitely see it as a confidence booster for the team to think that they have an inside edge on Duke's game plan.

It seems to me like Duke's current offense is very, very different from the offense that Paulus was working with at the time, so hopefully his experience won't provide too much technical information, but I think he could definitely help drive home some points about Duke's tendencies that Thad Matta has probably already filled the team in on.

wilko
11-29-2011, 09:04 AM
According to the article on the main page, as well as the preview on ESPN.com, Paulus is the video coordinator for Ohio State. Do you think that gives them an edge at all? I can definitely see it being a benefit for them to get Paulus's opinions on the film they watch - whether or not that actually translates to a benefit on the floor is yet to be seen, but I can definitely see it as a confidence booster for the team to think that they have an inside edge on Duke's game plan.

It seems to me like Duke's current offense is very, very different from the offense that Paulus was working with at the time, so hopefully his experience won't provide too much technical information, but I think he could definitely help drive home some points about Duke's tendencies that Thad Matta has probably already filled the team in on.

MY guess is GP can help identify general tendencies.
As Greg has moved on, we have new guys on our roster. I don't know to what degree he knows the current players and has interacted with them, so specific scouting from practice and personal experience most likely wont apply.

Plus another variable is Capel on the bench. Whatever Jeff may add to the bench in practice or insights into tweaking sets during a game; that's a wrinkle Greg will prolly be unprepared for.

I'm sure Greg will do the best job he can for the person that signs his checks.... am I'm sure that the staff and players will wish the best for Greg NEXT game.

Matches
11-29-2011, 09:10 AM
Our games are all nationally televised. I really doubt Paulus can add much that wouldn't be discernable from watching us on TV. Maybe he knows some of our hand signals or something like that.

I don't expect that to be a significant factor.

hq2
11-29-2011, 09:11 AM
It seems to me like Duke's current offense is very, very different from the offense that Paulus was working with at the time, so hopefully his experience won't provide too much technical information, but I think he could definitely help drive home some points about Duke's tendencies that Thad Matta has probably already filled the team in on.

Yes, but physically the team is actually quite similar to the one he was on his senior year. That team had a couple of good bigs, a lot of perimeter players,
and not much in between. So, Paulus will have some idea as to how Duke will run their offensive sets to create 3 pointers and low post scoring
opportunities.

OldPhiKap
11-29-2011, 09:38 AM
I assume Greg will mainly be scouting player tendencies more than anything. It's not like our offense and defense has been a secret. As someone mentioned above, about every game we play is on TV. I am sure that the coaching staff and players have watched some of our games this year as well, and discussed what they saw as the game was on.

Paulus will understand how K plans to attack, though, and that's where I think he can provide valuable info to Thad. But I assume both teams plan to go strength on strength until someone is forced to change and adapt to the other.

COYS
11-29-2011, 09:49 AM
Paulus will understand how K plans to attack, though, and that's where I think he can provide valuable info to Thad. But I assume both teams plan to go strength on strength until someone is forced to change and adapt to the other.

I think this is the main point. OSU is no more mystery to Duke than we are to OSU. Sullinger is going to be the focus of their offense in the half-court, plain and simple. It's not like they're going to stop giving him the ball because we know it's coming. Similarly, Mason's gonna post up, Ryan's going to get the ball on the wing/high post, Austin's going to drive from the wing and Seth and Andre are going to shoot threes. We're going to do that regardless of what the Buckeye's expect. It is possible Greg may be able to guess correctly about a specific inbounds play or something like that which might give Matta a small edge in a very specific situation, but I suspect that neither side is particularly concerned with the other side knowing what it's going to try to accomplish. Personally, I can't wait for the game. Win or lose, this will be a wonderful test for our new-look squad.

roywhite
11-29-2011, 09:59 AM
I think this is the main point. OSU is no more mystery to Duke than we are to OSU. Sullinger is going to be the focus of their offense in the half-court, plain and simple. It's not like they're going to stop giving him the ball because we know it's coming. Similarly, Mason's gonna post up, Ryan's going to get the ball on the wing/high post, Austin's going to drive from the wing and Seth and Andre are going to shoot threes. We're going to do that regardless of what the Buckeye's expect. It is possible Greg may be able to guess correctly about a specific inbounds play or something like that which might give Matta a small edge in a very specific situation, but I suspect that neither side is particularly concerned with the other side knowing what it's going to try to accomplish. Personally, I can't wait for the game. Win or lose, this will be a wonderful test for our new-look squad.

Hope we don't see a lot of early whistles that get Mason in foul trouble. With the crowd likely at fever pitch, the refs may want to make a statement or take control early.
Frankly, I think Mason has improved greatly in his ability to play good defense without fouling.

Even with our Maui performance, I'd have to make tOSU the favorite here, but Duke is certainly capable of winning, and Mason will likely be key. If he can hold Sullinger town, advantage may swing our way.

OldPhiKap
11-29-2011, 10:09 AM
Hope we don't see a lot of early whistles that get Mason in foul trouble. With the crowd likely at fever pitch, the refs may want to make a statement or take control early.
Frankly, I think Mason has improved greatly in his ability to play good defense without fouling.

Even with our Maui performance, I'd have to make tOSU the favorite here, but Duke is certainly capable of winning, and Mason will likely be key. If he can hold Sullinger town, advantage may swing our way.

Agreed with all of the above. And I hope Josh brought his mojo with him because I expect him to get some key minutes tonight. I could see Miles and Mason both either picking up two in the first half, and/or having some foul trouble down the stretch. There will be a lot of banging, and a lot of bang-bang plays in the paint.

Should be a fun game, and I think we are appropriately a few point underdog in their house.

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:11 AM
Hope we don't see a lot of early whistles that get Mason in foul trouble. With the crowd likely at fever pitch, the refs may want to make a statement or take control early.
Frankly, I think Mason has improved greatly in his ability to play good defense without fouling.

Even with our Maui performance, I'd have to make tOSU the favorite here, but Duke is certainly capable of winning, and Mason will likely be key. If he can hold Sullinger town, advantage may swing our way.

Completely agree with everything you say. Mason doesn't even have to hold Sullinger down. He just has to make him work for his shots. All Mason needs to do is make Sullinger as inefficient as possible. No one's going to shut him down. But keeping off the boards and away from easy buckets as much as possible will make a big difference and give our offense (which is not too shabby, either) a better chance to keep up. Also, outside of Sullinger, no one on the Buckeye's is an ace rebounder. They're not bad, but they're not all-world, either. Our other players, especially Ryan, will need to step up and swallow up some extra boards. I think Miles can be very valuable with his rebounding prowess off the bench. Rebounds will be gold, especially since the Buckeyes don't turn it over very much. If we can make up for what I think will be a turnover margin in favor of OSU with good defensive rebounding, we'll be in a much better position to win.

gumbomoop
11-29-2011, 11:02 AM
Agree with loran and Mike from above that Craft is a great defender. He will test Seth (or Austin)'s ball-handling and Duke's ball-handling and awareness in general as Craft is adept at coming from off the ball for steals, too. His defense, along with Sullinger's post-scoring and the 6'6" Buford's wing scoring are the three great concerns for Duke (as they are with most of OSU's opponents). Duke has to win along one of those three fronts. It's difficult to pull off a road win if the home team's three greatest strengths manifest themselves. So Duke has to have a clean ball-handling game, or Mason has to play Sullinger even, or Dawkins/Rivers --undersized relative to Buford-- have to keep Buford in check defensively. Preferably all three will go our way. But one of them needs to at the bare minimum.

I agree with Troublemaker, loran16, and Mike Corey re Aaron Craft. I saw tOSU only a few times toward end of last season, so had only heard of Craft because he was a small part of the Bruce Pearl story.

But when I saw him, I was so impressed that, outside of our own players, he was the player I most enjoyed watching. His on-ball defense is exceptionally good, especially his footwork-to-get-position. And his awareness of when he can leave his man to double down to surprise an opponent or to flick away a pass is even better than Tyler Thornton's. His defensive court awareness is as impressive as was Scheyer's offensive court awareness.

On Buford -- I've argued that our 3-guard perimeter will seldom be troubled by opposing SF/3s, as there are relatively few super-athletic SFs in college ball, and fewer still whose coaches actually coach the post-up over smaller opponents [except on the occasional switch-mismatch]. But Buford may be an exception, and surely likely to be more of a problem than was Branden Dawson of Mich St. Dawson is a promising frosh; Buford is a proven senior. Moreover, although Buford's reputation [I think??] is as a shooter, and although he is shooting 50% from 3, what's more interesting is that of his FGMs, a mere 26% are from 3. Compare that to Duke's 3-bombers [excluding TT....]: Seth - 50% of his FGMs are from 3, Andre - 74%, Ryan - 39%, and Austin - 27%. Buford is tOSU's sole big threat from 3, but he may give Duke more trouble on the drive and O-board.

I was so impressed with how our team responded to tough opponents in Maui. For a team with "leadership questions," they neither panicked when challenged nor backed down against tricky defenses and strong rebounders. It was obvious that the atmosphere in the Maui final was wonderful: small gym, packed with passionate opposing fans, treated to a fierce game, down to the wire. Looking forward to another instant classic this evening.

bluedevildaddy
11-29-2011, 02:52 PM
Duke/OSU Tale of the Tape:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/compare?t1-season=2011-2012&t1-type=&t1=duke&t2=ohio-state

bluedevildaddy
11-29-2011, 03:12 PM
If this game is close down the stretch, which I expect it to be, it will be interesting to see how this young OSU team reacts. Aside from playing Florida, all of their games have been against cupcakes and all of their games to date have been at home. I know that this game is a home game for them as well. Conversely, Duke's young team has already been battle tested this year against several high quality opponents, all except Presbyterian and maybe Davidson, in high pressure, close games. It should be a great game. Go Blue Devils!!

House G
11-29-2011, 03:22 PM
Ohio State currently favored by 7 pts (up from 6 this morning). It's nice to be a 'dog for a change.

Bluedog
11-29-2011, 04:08 PM
According to Nolan, the plane carrying the team had some issues, but they arrived safely yesterday so all is good. Wasn't it last year that UNC had a plane scare with major shaking throughout the cabin?


Praying my Duke Fam has a safe flight to OH. I hear they plane having difficulties! If they plane ain't working, don't fix it, get a new 1!

Duke has landed!!
http://twitter.com/#!/NdotSmitty

kessler
11-29-2011, 04:19 PM
Dont Normally post often, but wanted to drop my two cents in. I for one think Duke has a huge chance to grab the win tonight, and to me shouldnt be underdogs. We have much more length than Osu, and i think we can match them athletically. Personally, i think the 2 biggest factors tonight will be Mason and Ryan. Mason, because i think to win this game, he needs to rebound and score with Sullinger without fouling too much. Ryan, because as a big man against OSU who is not too big, they will have to put a power forward on Kelly who can run around like a small forward on the wings. I think this will be a big factor because this opens up the key for offensive rebounding opportunities for Mason and Miles, who i think both have as good a chance as anybody on the court to grab the rebound. I also think it will be huge whoever defends Buford, as if Sullinger gets slowed down to an extent, than he will be their go to guy...
What Do You Guys think will be the biggest factor for us to win tonight?

superdave
11-29-2011, 04:20 PM
I have not seen anyone discussing him as the #1 pick in next year's draft, as the front page OSU preview suggests. Unfortunately Barnes is ranked ahead of him most everywhere. Chad Ford has Jared at 5 (http://espn.go.com/nba/draft). I'm sure someone else has pointed this out, but I've not read this thread yet.

NSDukeFan
11-29-2011, 04:21 PM
I agree with Troublemaker, loran16, and Mike Corey re Aaron Craft. I saw tOSU only a few times toward end of last season, so had only heard of Craft because he was a small part of the Bruce Pearl story.

But when I saw him, I was so impressed that, outside of our own players, he was the player I most enjoyed watching. His on-ball defense is exceptionally good, especially his footwork-to-get-position. And his awareness of when he can leave his man to double down to surprise an opponent or to flick away a pass is even better than Tyler Thornton's. His defensive court awareness is as impressive as was Scheyer's offensive court awareness.

On Buford -- I've argued that our 3-guard perimeter will seldom be troubled by opposing SF/3s, as there are relatively few super-athletic SFs in college ball, and fewer still whose coaches actually coach the post-up over smaller opponents [except on the occasional switch-mismatch]. But Buford may be an exception, and surely likely to be more of a problem than was Branden Dawson of Mich St. Dawson is a promising frosh; Buford is a proven senior. Moreover, although Buford's reputation [I think??] is as a shooter, and although he is shooting 50% from 3, what's more interesting is that of his FGMs, a mere 26% are from 3. Compare that to Duke's 3-bombers [excluding TT....]: Seth - 50% of his FGMs are from 3, Andre - 74%, Ryan - 39%, and Austin - 27%. Buford is tOSU's sole big threat from 3, but he may give Duke more trouble on the drive and O-board.

I was so impressed with how our team responded to tough opponents in Maui. For a team with "leadership questions," they neither panicked when challenged nor backed down against tricky defenses and strong rebounders. It was obvious that the atmosphere in the Maui final was wonderful: small gym, packed with passionate opposing fans, treated to a fierce game, down to the wire. Looking forward to another instant classic this evening.
I agree with Gumbomoop, Troublemaker, loran16, and Mike Corey re Aaron Craft. (Just wanted to keep it going.) I do think OSU presents some great challenges for Duke. The guards will likely not be playing against a tougher defender this year. The bigs will likely not be playing against a better post player and rebounder this year. And I agree, for the wings, Buford presents a very good, experienced challenge. (I believe he will potentially end up OSU's all-time leading scorer, which is very impressive.) What a great challenge for Duke in what will be a very energetic atmosphere. I'm pumped. Go Duke!

OldPhiKap
11-29-2011, 04:39 PM
According to Nolan, the plane carrying the team had some issues, but they arrived safely yesterday so all is good. Wasn't it last year that UNC had a plane scare with major shaking throughout the cabin?



http://twitter.com/#!/NdotSmitty

I seem to remember hearing about this on a trip down to Miami, not sure if it was last year or the year before. I think the reports came from some player tweets after they landed.

dcar1985
11-29-2011, 04:41 PM
I think our experience and toughness gets the W tonite....Everyone focuses on the fact that Sully is such a beast and rightfully so, but OSU is a really young team who starts 4 sophomores w/ Buford being the lone upperclassmen, They pretty much went 6 deep last year....Outside of Jared and Buford they don't have any proven consistent scoring, Smith barely played last year and Craft isn't much of an offensive threat. OSU's bench doesn't bring much either outside of maybe Sibert. One big focus point should be not to let a guy like Thomas go off for a career night...Jared will get his points and rebounds but our bigs will definitely make him work, we hold Buford to decent numbers and I think we should come out on the right side of this one.

billyj
11-29-2011, 05:04 PM
We are a huge underdog against OSU. Kenpom has OSU winning 78% and some of the sports booking site has OSU by 7pts.

Lets go Duke, hope we can pull this one off.

CDu
11-29-2011, 05:14 PM
I think our experience and toughness gets the W tonite....Everyone focuses on the fact that Sully is such a beast and rightfully so, but OSU is a really young team who starts 4 sophomores w/ Buford being the lone upperclassmen, They pretty much went 6 deep last year....Outside of Jared and Buford they don't have any proven consistent scoring, Smith barely played last year and Craft isn't much of an offensive threat. OSU's bench doesn't bring much either outside of maybe Sibert. One big focus point should be not to let a guy like Thomas go off for a career night...Jared will get his points and rebounds but our bigs will definitely make him work, we hold Buford to decent numbers and I think we should come out on the right side of this one.

They certainly aren't experienced and don't have a ton of scoring depth. That's in our favor. Of course, we don't have a ton of guys with leadership/star experience at the college level either (not that this has been a problem for us this year - just saying it may not be a specific advantage for us).

It doesn't seem like OSU has a ton of 3pt shooters. Basically, Buford is the only really good 3pt shooter, and he doesn't shoot a ton of them. Seems like they must score a lot in transition, as they have averaged 11 steals per game. Limiting turnovers and transition buckets will be a key.

In the halfcourt, it seems like Sullinger and Buford are the big threats, with Thomas as an alternative option. After that, it's a few points here and there for folks.

Hopefully Mason can do a good job of preventing Sullinger from completely dominating, and hopefully he stays out of foul trouble. I think his incremental impact (on both ends) is big, and is magnified against higher quality opponents.

On the offensive end, we need to avoid turnovers and get good looks. OSU is tall and athletic on the wings, and Kraft is a terrific defender. They'll likely make us work for our 3pt shots. Hopefully we can continue to hit at a high rate. If we do so, I think we can win.

It'll be tough as this is our first true road game. I don't expect a win (ducking), but I won't be surprised either. We definitely have the depth and the talent to win this game.

bluesin
11-29-2011, 05:53 PM
I was just talking with my wife about Mason and she produced this gem, "I'm going to start calling Mason 'Santa' - that's how much I believe[.]"

I don't think I've ever wanted a nickname to catch on so badly in my life. My only concern now is that Santa traditionally wears red, white and black - though I suppose that's only passingly close to scarlet and grey :p

BluDvlsN1
11-29-2011, 06:11 PM
As always a lot of good discussion and great points made on this forum!
Not to rehash.. and ..Maybe it my obvious bias showing through!

I look at OStates lineup, I look at their season so far!
All the numbers are based on weak opponents save one!

On paper, It appears a real close game and might be.
I don't believe competition and effort can be turned on and off like a light switch,
Certainly they should'nt need any more reason to be up for a game! But they just seem
To have been walking through the season... Will that show up in the last 10 min of the game?

When looking at the rosters, it just appears we have a lot more to shut down than they do!
I Don't get the spread, maybe I'm missing a bunch!
and again .. Maybe its my obvious bias showing through!

I dont think we go undefeated, I just dont think the first one is tonight!!

dcar1985
11-29-2011, 06:45 PM
As always a lot of good discussion and great points made on this forum!
Not to rehash.. and ..Maybe it my obvious bias showing through!

I look at OStates lineup, I look at their season so far!
All the numbers are based on weak opponents save one!

On paper, It appears a real close game and might be.
I don't believe competition and effort can be turned on and off like a light switch,
Certainly they should'nt need any more reason to be up for a game! But they just seem
To have been walking through the season... Will that show up in the last 10 min of the game?

When looking at the rosters, it just appears we have a lot more to shut down than they do!
I Don't get the spread, maybe I'm missing a bunch!
and again .. Maybe its my obvious bias showing through!

I dont think we go undefeated, I just dont think the first one is tonight!!


Outside of Sully, Buford and maybe Thomas...its not likely that the other guys are going to need to be shutdown.....I think we clearly have more offensive threats

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 08:03 PM
".....there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them."

I made that observation about Duke in the big man perception thread and it caused some healthy debate.

My argument is that if Duke would play to the post offense with more focus, more aggressiveness, they could play more balanced and be an even better team.

I think Mason and Kelly, and even Miles are capable of putting more pressure on post defenders with offensive post moves, which would open things up for Duke's shooters, and that it will be a necessary part of team play for them to win a title.

Some have argued that Duke already does that, but I don't think they do it near enough. So tonight I will be watching this game and counting the entry passes to a Duke post player that result in an offensive move to the rim. The definition of what I am looking for is above in bold.

I'll post the count in this thread, in short notes from my phone, because I won't be watching from home.

I'm not talking about follow ups, rebounds, or dribble drive dishes from a guard. I'm talking about 1/2 court entry passes that a big makes an offensive move from in the paint.

I think it will be interesting to see just how many, or how few, "traditional" post offensive scoring attempts Duke makes tonight.

So, that's what Ill be looking for tonight, along with getting my first look at Sullinger this season..

This is a battle. The war is won or lost in March.

DuKe4LiFe#30
11-29-2011, 08:23 PM
Duke wins by 4 points.
Sub-zero and ryan kelly both score over 20 points

Newton_14
11-29-2011, 08:36 PM
".....there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them."

I made that observation about Duke in the big man perception thread and it caused some healthy debate.

My argument is that if Duke would play to the post offense with more focus, more aggressiveness, they could play more balanced and be an even better team.

I think Mason and Kelly, and even Miles are capable of putting more pressure on post defenders with offensive post moves, which would open things up for Duke's shooters, and that it will be a necessary part of team play for them to win a title.

Some have argued that Duke already does that, but I don't think they do it near enough. So tonight I will be watching this game and counting the entry passes to a Duke post player that result in an offensive move to the rim. The definition of what I am looking for is above in bold.

I'll post the count in this thread, in short notes from my phone, because I won't be watching from home.

I'm not talking about follow ups, rebounds, or dribble drive dishes from a guard. I'm talking about 1/2 court entry passes that a big makes an offensive move from in the paint.

I think it will be interesting to see just how many, or how few, "traditional" post offensive scoring attempts Duke makes tonight.

So, that's what Ill be looking for tonight, along with getting my first look at Sullinger this season..

This is a battle. The war is won or lost in March.

Did you count the kind of post ups you are referring to in the UNC/UNLV game the other night? I did not see the entire game, but the parts I did see, had very little of the type post up's you are referring to. You seem to be using UNC as the standard when they may not be using that kind of post offense as much as you think they are.

Either way, I don't care how Mason, Ryan, and Miles get their points, as long as they produce. Duke has been well balanced with scoring all year, and I expect it will be the same tonight win or lose. The post matchups are very intriquing in this game.

I am a bit surprised at the line as well. I was expecting 3 or 4. 7 is a lot, even with OSU being at home and treating it like the National Championship. Maybe there is something intangible that we don't see that makes this a bad matchup for Duke. Just an interesting line that makes me second guess my thoughts on the matchup.

riverside6
11-29-2011, 09:20 PM
live tempo-based stats for the game here...

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=10411

starters for Duke: Curry, Rivers, Dawkins, Kelly, and Mason

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 09:24 PM
Did you count the kind of post ups you are referring to in the UNC/UNLV game the other night? I did not see the entire game, but the parts I did see, had very little of the type post up's you are referring to. You seem to be using UNC as the standard when they may not be using that kind of post offense as much as you think they are.

Either way, I don't care how Mason, Ryan, and Miles get their points, as long as they produce. Duke has been well balanced with scoring all year, and I expect it will be the same tonight win or lose. The post matchups are very intriquing in this game.

I am a bit surprised at the line as well. I was expecting 3 or 4. 7 is a lot, even with OSU being at home and treating it like the National Championship. Maybe there is something intangible that we don't see that makes this a bad matchup for Duke. Just an interesting line that makes me second guess my thoughts on the matchup.

Where did you get the idea from me that UNC has anything to do with the debate about how coach K and Duke chooses to use the bigs in the post offense?

gwlaw99
11-29-2011, 09:39 PM
Digger just called Austin our point guard. Damn, Vitale calling game.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 09:42 PM
Both teams look tight early...

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Ok, I guess it's mostly Duke that's tight early :( Jeez, Austin's not gonna get too many easier shots than that layup he blew. Ugh is all I have to say thus far...

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Good start...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 09:47 PM
1 nice post move for mason

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 09:50 PM
Borderline second move... But I will give it to him Since he took it and strong

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Really going to Mason a lot early on - I like it but...would like it more if he made some more shots.

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 09:52 PM
I hope we weren't too late to get into this game. That's rough. Nice job to Austin!

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 09:52 PM
Holy cow - that was an obvious foul on Mason's last bucket! I didn't notice it until the replay. Smells like home cookin' to me!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 09:53 PM
Third good strong move for mason

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 09:57 PM
More reason that I can't stand Lebron!

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 09:59 PM
Jeez! That was a charge! No way that foul should have been called on Kelly.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:02 PM
Sullinger shoves Mas out of bounds on the baseline and...it's a Duke turnover? Ok, I see how it's gonna be...

And now Valentine calls a phantom foul on Mason. I can't stand by Ted Valentine :mad:

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Sullinger shoves Mas out of bounds on the baseline and...it's a Duke turnover? Ok, I see how it's gonna be...

And now Valentine calls a phantom foul on Mason. I can't stand by Ted Valentine :mad:

We can't let the refs bother us. Some bad calls, but we gotta keep our heads down and get back in this.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Ok, I'm going to try and not say anything else about the officiating in this game but right now, at the 7:54 mark of the first half, it has SUUUUUCCCCKKED big time!!!

aro24
11-29-2011, 10:05 PM
And now Teddy V calls a shove on Seth. Geez. Can't catch a break

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm not usually one to complain about the refs, but if they continue to call the game like this, Duke does not stand a chance. Duke has made their fair share of mistakes in the early going, but the refs need to even out the calls. There have been fouls on both sides but for some reason, one side isn't getting whistled.

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 10:06 PM
This is ridiculous... We are falling out of this game. Refs or not, we have to start executing. Austin needs to find a way to finish these drives to get results for the good effort.

gwlaw99
11-29-2011, 10:06 PM
Refs are killing us by not calling any fouls

The Slamming Butcher
11-29-2011, 10:07 PM
This is a young team...and they look it so far.

Greg_Newton
11-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Sullinger has two clear fouls so far on Mason. Guess it's going to be that kind of night...

banneheim
11-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Sullinger shoves Mas out of bounds on the baseline and...it's a Duke turnover? Ok, I see how it's gonna be...

And now Valentine calls a phantom foul on Mason. I can't stand by Ted Valentine :mad:

what does valentine have against Coach K?

The Slamming Butcher
11-29-2011, 10:10 PM
The refs refuse to call anything on Sullinger.

edit: until now. He should have at LEAST two.

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:10 PM
Sullinger doesn't miss these contested shots. I've watched him before and he's not usually this tightly guarded and when he is, it usually effects him... not tonight.

Ohio st. is just running circles around Duke. Unless something changes quickly, this will be a long night. Where's Duke's defense right now? Ohio state is getting whatever they want on offense.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:11 PM
We have to play better D, but OSU is pretty much making everything right now. Also need to cut down on the silly turnovers. If I were Austin, I'd keep taking it at Sullinger inside. He's obviously trying hard NOT to foul.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 10:11 PM
4th strong dunk by mason

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:12 PM
That was a CLEAR charge on Rivers. Maybe the suckitude of the refs extends to both teams, after all.

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
And the one that should have actually NOT been a foul on Sullinger, they call. Had they called the push on Mason AND the slap on Mason's lay-up... different story.

Duke has to find a way to force Ohio state out of their offense though.

UrinalCake
11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Mason tackled, travel called

sporthenry
11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Trying to bite my tongue about the refs but that is the most basic calls. Defender undercuts the dribbler is an automatic foul. Add on Mason pushed out of bounds, Curry hand checked into a walk and wonder why we are turning it over.

The Slamming Butcher
11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Mason has his legs taken out from behind, and they call a travel?

This game has already been decided...

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
OMG! I guess it's legal to trip a guy now? WTH?!?!?

duke09hms
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
Where is our defense?

Andre was so lackadaisical chasing after Buford on that wide-open jump shot. And he bricked a wide open 15-fter earlier - can all the JJ comparisons stop now?

aro24
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
Got to tighten up the D. Too many open looks right now.

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
what does valentine have against Coach K?

Ok, I'm breaking my own rule after that "travel" on Mason. Apparently you're allowed to lie on the floor and trip people.

That aside, we gotta figure things out on defense. Our guards have got to fight through screens better. Ever screen rubs Andre, Austin, Seth, Tyler . . . whomever off the receiver who simply has to turn and hit a wide open 15 footer. Those are the shots we want them taking, we just can't make them the equivalent of free throws.

gwlaw99
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
They are defending the 3 well. Need to get our shooters some shots

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:15 PM
Something other than the refs:

1) Mason has looked very solid thus far

2) Aside from a few TO's, Austin looks very good. He's been the only one to attack the Ohio State defense.

sporthenry
11-29-2011, 10:15 PM
Think it might be time to see what G can bring on the defensive end against Buford.

Greg_Newton
11-29-2011, 10:15 PM
That was a CLEAR charge on Rivers. Maybe the suckitude of the refs extends to both teams, after all.

Huh? Sullinger was pretty clearly leaning left.

Oh, and looks like we're not alone... :D
NdotSmitty Nolan D. Smith
Ted Valentine hates Duke... As a ref, he circles the Duke games, it's him vs Coach K... I remember him! Lol!!! It's a macho thing with him!

CajunDevil
11-29-2011, 10:15 PM
That was a CLEAR charge on Rivers. Maybe the suckitude of the refs extends to both teams, after all.

No way... Sullinger slid under Rivers. In real time I thought it was a charge too, but the replay was clear that Sully was moving.

Billy Dat
11-29-2011, 10:15 PM
Forget the refs...our defense is a joke...every shot they take is open. We need some fight!

mndukie
11-29-2011, 10:16 PM
That was a CLEAR charge on Rivers. Maybe the suckitude of the refs extends to both teams, after all.

Actually, I found this to be one of their better calls...not just being a Duke fan, but Sullinger was sliding under as Rivers was avoiding contact. A call that too often gets called a charge.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:17 PM
TOSU is UNLV on steroids, so to speak. It seems like a very good college squad against an NBA squad.

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:17 PM
How many times am I going to hear Dan Shulman say "and a wide open shot for..." when talking about OSU on offense?

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:17 PM
Actually, I found this to be one of their better calls...not just being a Duke fan, but Sullinger was sliding under as Rivers was avoiding contact. A call that too often gets called a charge.

Ouch. Three wide open threes. All misses. That was a good chance to get back in the game.

gus
11-29-2011, 10:18 PM
I think it's less about the refs, and more about our poor perimeter defense. Our guards are step slow on defense.

Also, Ohio St seems to make all of their contested shots in the paint, while Duke isn't.

Austin sure likes to go right, doesn't he?

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Actually, I found this to be one of their better calls...not just being a Duke fan, but Sullinger was sliding under as Rivers was avoiding contact. A call that too often gets called a charge.

Agree with this one. At game speed from the cameras I thought it was a blown call. You could clearly see Sully leaning on the replay, though.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Unfortuantly I am waiting for Dandy Don to start singing.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Ok, I really was trying to talk about something other than the refs, but the OSU players were hacking the fool out of Thornton when he was on the ground and...jump ball? Jeez!!!

mr. synellinden
11-29-2011, 10:19 PM
I don't care that much if we win this game or not. Forget about the refs ... so far an apparent home team bias.

This is Rivers' coming out party. He is very good. Making the transition to great. Looking like Kyrie did last year in terms of getting to the basket at will. Now he is finishing. He is an offensive weapon unlike any other in the country.

Again, regardless of who wins, that is the most important thing happening in this game.

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:21 PM
I don't care that much if we win this game or not. Forget about the refs ... so far an apparent home team bias.

This is Rivers' coming out party. He is very good. Making the transition to great. Looking like Kyrie did last year in terms of getting to the basket at will. Now he is finishing. He is an offensive weapon unlike any other in the country.

Again, regardless of who wins, that is the most important thing happening in this game.

Our inexperience is showing a bit. Four wide open threes missed badly by Tyler (x2), Austin, and Quinn. We gotta forget about the score, right now, buckle down and get a stop on this last play and go into half-time knowing we need to settle down. Our perimeter D is looking pretty poor right now, though. Sullinger's too good to stop, but every Buckeye is getting wide open shots.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
I don't care that much if we win this game or not. Forget about the refs ... so far an apparent home team bias.

This is Rivers' coming out party. He is very good. Making the transition to great. Looking like Kyrie did last year in terms of getting to the basket at will. Now he is finishing. He is an offensive weapon unlike any other in the country.

Again, regardless of who wins, that is the most important thing happening in this game.

Ok, but maybe the 2nd most important thing happening here is Mason showing he can be effective against a top-notch talent like Sullinger

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
It's rare that you can say Duke is being out-hustled by an opposing team... OSU just WANTS it more and they are running their offense perfectly. Also, did Duke have any game plan going into this one? TT and QK launching three's? Has Kelly taken a shot yet?... Aside from the 15 foot jumper when he got pushed in mid air? Dawkins is nowhere to be found either. Tough first half. Very poor play from Duke.

WVDUKEFAN
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Ouch. Make the bleeding stop. What are we doing?

The Slamming Butcher
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
A good, humbling, early-season butt kicking could be good for this team. Let's see what adjustments K makes at the half and how the kids respond to adversity.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-29-2011, 10:23 PM
...if we're not going to play defense and then rely on TT and Cook to hit 3's... uh, yeah.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:24 PM
What percentage is tOSU shooting in the first half? Only 19 down at half. Is this 1990 UNLV vs. Duke?

CLW
11-29-2011, 10:24 PM
Team looked flat and Ohio St. made our defense look AWFUL. Seems like we lay a complete EGG like this every year now.

duke09hms
11-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Bad news: our perimeter defense has been torn up all season long so far. Keith Appling - MSU, Tennessee and UMich penetrating at will, the Kansas PG going off on us. Now it's going to be exposed in a loss.

Good news: it's still somewhat early in the season

sporthenry
11-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Adversity is always good especially early in the season. It'll be interesting to see if G gets a look or Cook gets a more extended look going forward. It seems in games like this we often find someone who steps up. Only two who have showed up so far are Rivers and Mason.

duke96
11-29-2011, 10:26 PM
What percentage is tOSU shooting in the first half? Only 19 down at half. Is this 1990 UNLV vs. Duke?

61%. they couldnt miss. they are outplaying us by far, but they also were REALLY hot shooting in that half

dairedevil
11-29-2011, 10:26 PM
The game went almost seven minutes before a foul was called - is that a record in a Duke game?

After going down 9-0 early, we have the nice run to get within one. Then, Mason gets 2 fouls and the game changes.

We've played some lousy defense, and Ohio State has had way too many open shots that have just swished, while we can't even hit the backboard. ugh.

Only 10 fouls called in the first half - we've got 6, with 2 on Mason and Seth. sigh.


Here's to hoping K fixes things at halftime.

Bob Green
11-29-2011, 10:26 PM
We are getting beat by a very talented basketball team that has taken us out of our game with a strong defensive performance. We are 1-7 on 3-pointers and Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins have not scored. However, there are 20 minutes of basketball left to play. Let's Go Duke!

Austin Rivers and Mason Plumlee are playing great!

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Good news is we will grow up and get better and "they" will be gone (to the NBA).

gwlaw99
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
I just want to see our guys fight and make a good game of it. Were not playing Duke basketball. We hit one three in the first half out of 7.

Fuqua's Finest
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
So I wont go in to panic mode, but I'm extremely disappointed in the play of Seth Curry in particular. He looks lost out there. Dre is getting abused on defense getting lost constantly on picks. Plum 1 looks absolutely terrible. He literally looks for no offense and defense is nonexistent. Austin and Mason are ballin' but the rest of the team stayed in Durham. K will make adjustments but I regretfully think the 19 point halftime deficit is wayyy too much. BTW Ohio State runs a butter smooth offense.

duke09hms
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
Would like to see Mike get a try on defense - we could use a long defensive stopper out there. Not sure Quinn brings anything to the table on defense.

Andre's timidity and reluctance to attack is really exposed tonight - the kid is not ready to create his own shot

SCMatt33
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
Duke shouldn't be this far out of the game. I really feel that this isn't like St. John's last year where they got totally outclassed in every facet of the game. Duke's shooting 44% and 14% from three, where OSU is shooting 60% and 33% from 3. Those numbers often come from a game like G'Town 2010 where they just had a layup and dunk line going the whole game, but Duke has actually done a good job of making them take jumpers and forcing the bigs to make 4-8 foot shots over defenders. They're just making them. Duke has missed a lot of those kinds of shots. If the pure shooting was closer, Duke would probably only be down 2-3 possessions based solely on the on court play.

cbnaylor
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Can we start I Hate Ted Valentine thread? Anyone.....anyone.

Billy Dat
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Buford and Thomas killed us, mostly because it seemed as if we weren't guarding them. We knew at 6'6" and 6'7" with slashing and shooting ability they'd be tough, but I didn't expect them to be wide open for every shot.

Calling Seth Curry, calling Ryan Kelly...we need you, boys. You were non-existant in the first half.

Austin and Mason came to play. Tyler seemed ok, too. Everyone else needs to man up in the second half. We likely won't win, but we need to at least save face.

Credit Ohio State's defense which took away everything save for Austin and Mason's one-on-one efforts.

As for the refs, they're not good, but they're not why we're losing by 20.

moonpie23
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
ryan seems in a fog.....no movement hardly....

this is ugly....

let's see what they can do in the 2nd half....

BluDvlsN1
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
what does valentine have against Coach K?

He cant stand Bobby Knight

duke09hms
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Good news is we will grow up and get better and "they" will be gone (to the NBA).

Except THEY also includes our two best players Austin and Mason

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
We won't win many games giving up 47 points in a half - yikes! Also hard to win when you shoot like 14% from three. I hate to give up on the team but...tonight doesn't look like our night at all. I don't know if Duke is truly the third best team in the country, but I also don't think that OSU is THIS much better than Duke right now. I think this is just one of those "buzzsaw" games like Georgetown 2010 and AZ last year. I hate it, but at least it's only November and just have to hope this motivates our guys to work harder and reach their full potential.

grossbus
11-29-2011, 10:29 PM
Apparently, many players still in Maui.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:29 PM
61 per cent shooting. Unheard of against a Duke team. They might be better than Ky. They are better coached (than Ky.).

COYS
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
A good, humbling, early-season I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. kicking could be good for this team. Let's see what adjustments K makes at the half ans how the kids respond to adversity.

Nothing went right in the first half besides Mason and Austin . . . and even Mason was the victim of some tough calls that resulted in turnovers that probably shouldn't have. The turnovers are really killing us right now on the offensive end. Well, turnovers and missed open shots. On the defensive end, we've got to do better with screens off the ball. They are killing our guards by screening along the baseline and at the block . . . and pretty much every where else. We're not being tough at all fighting through them. Sullinger's gonna get his points. I actually think we've done a pretty good job on him but he's made some tough shots, as good players are apt to do. The problem has been the wide open looks for everyone else on their team.

sporthenry
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
I think we do need to find a happy medium between the 2010 team defense and last year b/c we seem to have a bit more lateral quickness and depth than 2010 but are really lacking the defense like we had last year. We aren't creating TO's at any level like last year and are getting beat way too quickly. Perhaps we need to sag off a bit or see if Cook or anyone can stop penetration.

60's Devil
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Forget the refs...our defense is a joke...every shot they take is open. We need some fight!

Couldn't agree more. Our defense stinks. They are getting too many wide open jump shots. We need to stop turning it over. I love Tyler but he's no J.J.

Bob Green
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Has Kelly taken a shot yet?... Aside from the 15 foot jumper when he got pushed in mid air? Dawkins is nowhere to be found either. Tough first half.

Kelly and Dawkins are a combined 0-3. We need better ball movement to create some 3-point shot opportunities. Ohio State has strongly defended the perimeter.

PSurprise
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
We need some ball movement on the offensive end with guys moving to generate some open looks. How many times did Dawkins touch the ball? It's the Austin/Mason Show and no one else is there.

Edit: Wow, Bob-great minds think alike!

JMarley50
11-29-2011, 10:31 PM
There have been several bad calls...but that isn't the reason we are down 19. Defense is non-existent, I think Austin and Mason may have been the only ones to bring their game off the plane. Guys seem like they are running around in a daze. I just hope to see some fire and fight in the second half. Win or lose doesnt really matter at this point, I just want to see them grow and get better.

Gary
11-29-2011, 10:31 PM
It's very hard for me to see us outscoring a very, very good OSU team by 20 on their home court in the second half - but anything is possible (anyone here still believe in Santa?). LOL, just trying to inject some levity into an otherwise fairly tough game to watch. Other than Austin that is. At least he's having a decent game.

I can't say I didn't see this as a possibility. We've played a tough schedule and have logged a lot of miles over the last month. I just hope we can make a showing in the 2nd half and somehow make this a game. If we lose, at least lets go down fighting and playing better both offensively and defensively than we did in the first half.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Mason with 4 strong post moves 1st half. Scored on 3 of them.
Kelly 0 post moves attempted.
Miles 0 post moves attempted.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Champions adjust. Let's see what K and his staff do at half time.

Highlander
11-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Our defense is absolutely atrocious.
Dawkins loses his man on a screen and a wide open jumper.
Mason fails to pick up a man (was he playing Zone while everyone else plays man?) and he strolls over for a wide open three.
Final play of the half, both Rivers and Mason go with Sullinger and leave OSU wide open again for a jumper.
If we can't stay within five feet of our defenders, it will be a long night.

As for offense, Curry and Dawkins have been quiet. OSU is taking away the three and giving us one on one in the post and the drive or pull up jumpers. Other than Mason and Rivers, no one can hit anything consistently. Mason has actually evened out Sullinger for the most part stat wise. It seems all our guards save Austin are incapable of getting into the lane and hitting a pull up jumper. It is nice that Cook and Thornton are open for threes, but they should be the 4th or 5th options?

Second half, we have to start getting an inside out game going and play markedly better defense, and we can make it a game again. Otherwise, the result here is a foregone conclusion.

Bob Green
11-29-2011, 10:34 PM
Miles 0 post moves attempted.

Miles scored three points on a dunk and +1, how is that not a post move?

kmspeaks
11-29-2011, 10:34 PM
Duke's defense has been less than stellar and I have done everything in my power to erase the memory but does this remind anyone of the Arizona game last year? Even when we are contesting shots they're still making them.

I'm very interested to see:
1. what adjustments K makes at the half on both ends of the court
2. how the guys respond, big mental test here, do you dig in and claw your way back? or throw in the towel and sleepwalk through the last 20 minutes? Either way the second half and the next couple practices after tonight will be huge in this team's development.

Billy Dat
11-29-2011, 10:34 PM
On the defensive end, we've got to do better with screens off the ball. They are killing our guards by screening along the baseline and at the block . . . and pretty much every where else. We're not being tough at all fighting through them.

Excellent call, those pin downs are creating a lot of those wide open looks.

You know we are desperate when we go zone for extended periods of time. That's as close to throwing in the towel as we are apt to see out of K, also shows that he has no faith in the officiating and he knew we had no chance if Mason was to pick up 3.

Eternal Outlaw
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
Sadly not surprised. Tough early schedule and Maui was a tough emotional 3 day stretch to win it. Combine that with Ohio St playing pansies for a couple weeks and they could really circle and get emotionally up for this game.

jipops
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
This is a team of dead legs. Oh St getting tons of easy open looks. This team is clearly physically and mentally exhausted. There is absolutely no communication happening on D. Guys are apparently too tired to even talk.

lotusland
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
I think it's less about the refs, and more about our poor perimeter defense. Our guards are step slow on defense.

Also, Ohio St seems to make all of their contested shots in the paint, while Duke isn't.

Austin sure likes to go right, doesn't he?

This. The refs are rewarding agressiveness. They are taking it to our D and we are tenative. With the exception of AR we are not taking it to the hole.

on the positive side it is amazing how much Austin improves each game.

dukelifer
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
Duke shouldn't be this far out of the game. I really feel that this isn't like St. John's last year where they got totally outclassed in every facet of the game. Duke's shooting 44% and 14% from three, where OSU is shooting 60% and 33% from 3. Those numbers often come from a game like G'Town 2010 where they just had a layup and dunk line going the whole game, but Duke has actually done a good job of making them take jumpers and forcing the bigs to make 4-8 foot shots over defenders. They're just making them. Duke has missed a lot of those kinds of shots. If the pure shooting was closer, Duke would probably only be down 2-3 possessions based solely on the on court play.

Duke is not playing great and OSU is hitting everything. It is the first real road game for Duke. They have a lot of miles over the last few weeks and they ran into a buzz saw. It happens. They will Lick their wounds and come to play another day. Duke is fine. They will lose - maybe badly- to a a very good team- playing great tonight in a charged arena. Maybe they can make it respectable but this is likely not going to be pretty. It will make them stronger at some point in the season.

CajunDevil
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
Mason with 4 strong post moves 1st half. Scored on 3 of them.
Kelly 0 post moves attempted.
Miles 0 post moves attempted.

Wheat, our interior offense is not why we are getting the $&!t kicked out of us right now...

HDB
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
I wonder what Tony Parker is thinking right now?

hustleplays
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
It's rare that you can say Duke is being out-hustled by an opposing team... OSU just WANTS it more and they are running their offense perfectly. Also, did Duke have any game plan going into this one? TT and QK launching three's? Has Kelly taken a shot yet?... Aside from the 15 foot jumper when he got pushed in mid air? Dawkins is nowhere to be found either. Tough first half. Very poor play from Duke.

I agree with this. OSU is hungry, focused, making shots, playing well as a team, both on O & D. Craft, their PG, is savvy. Our offense does not have flow, partly due to tight perimeter guarding, but partly, IMNSHO opinion, due to our not having an experienced, really good PG. And we must be tight, still, because we are missing wide open jumpers. Wouldn't double screens help open up our 3 pointers? I know, we still have to make them.

I agree with other posters -- Austin is a powerful offensive force. In this game, he needs more help.

Newton_14
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
We are getting beat by a very talented basketball team that has taken us out of our game with a strong defensive performance. We are 1-7 on 3-pointers and Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins have not scored. However, there are 20 minutes of basketball left to play. Let's Go Duke!

Austin Rivers and Mason Plumlee are playing great!

That pretty much sums it up. Shooting is about confidence. Our defense was really poor in that half on the perimeter and OSU took full advantage. They are seeing a big basket and as the lead grew, they were shooting under less and less game pressure. So much easier to make shots under those conditions.

Mason and Austin need some help. They are the only two that are on their games tonight. I thought Mase and Miles defended Sullinger about as good as he can be defended. He is just making tough shots. Tip your hat to him.

On the other side OSU's defense is shutting down our perimeter save Austin. Going to be a long night unless we come out with much more fight in the 2nd half.

On a humorous side, I loved seeing K rip Valentine right before the half. That was funny. But make no mistake, that half was not about the refs. The walk on Mason was insane, and Mason did get hammered by Sullinger on that one basket, but neither of those plays had much to do with the current score.

So let's see if the guys regroup and fight back or if they continue with the deer in the headlights looks and matador defense.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:36 PM
As Coach Cut says, "it's time to big boy up".

dairedevil
11-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Looking for positives - we've hit all of our free throws ;)

House G
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
We looked about as comfortable in that zone as I did in physics class.

MCFinARL
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
Would like to see Mike get a try on defense - we could use a long defensive stopper out there. Not sure Quinn brings anything to the table on defense.

Andre's timidity and reluctance to attack is really exposed tonight - the kid is not ready to create his own shot

Maybe so, but what chances did he have? The OSU was very effective on perimeter defense, and it didn't seem Andre ever got the ball when there wasn't someone right on top of him immediately.

Granted OSU probably can't keep shooting quite this lights out and the refs are helping, they are also defending very effectively and Duke is looking a bit lost as a result. It's reality check time--Duke has won several games against pretty good teams on neutral courts, but playing a really good team on its home court is something else altogether.

Oriole Way
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
I don't care what the final score is, I just want to see Quinn Cook get some extended burn in the second half. Sometimes there are games where your opponent can do no wrong, you can do no right, and the refs call everything against you to boot.

The only way this team can become elite, and beat elite teams, is with a true point guard like Cook running the show. The defense is a bigger problem right now, but that's going to be a much more difficult problem to address with the makeup of our roster. 3 assists to 9 turnovers is unacceptable, but not surprising considering the quality of opponent and the fact Curry is not a point guard. Our lackluster offensive efficiency is an easier problem to solve by installing a real point guard.

If we don't cut the lead under 10 points by the 10 minute mark, hand the keys to Cook and let him get some much needed run under his belt.

dukelifer
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
Duke's defense has been less than stellar and I have done everything in my power to erase the memory but does this remind anyone of the Arizona game last year? Even when we are contesting shots they're still making them.

I'm very interested to see:
1. what adjustments K makes at the half on both ends of the court
2. how the guys respond, big mental test here, do you dig in and claw your way back? or throw in the towel and sleepwalk through the last 20 minutes? Either way the second half and the next couple practices after tonight will be huge in this team's development.

Does not remind me of Arizona- Duke was in charge of that game until the second half explosion. Duke is not in this game. Duke is tired and playing like it - against a team on fire.

Kfanarmy
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
As Coach Cut says, "it's time to big boy up". maybe he should be saying "man up?"

jv001
11-29-2011, 10:39 PM
We are getting beat by a very talented basketball team that has taken us out of our game with a strong defensive performance. We are 1-7 on 3-pointers and Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins have not scored. However, there are 20 minutes of basketball left to play. Let's Go Duke!

Austin Rivers and Mason Plumlee are playing great!

Ohio State is good and make no mistake about it, they play very good defense. As someone pointed out, they have two players in the 6'6"-6'-7" range. Those two guys can really move both offensively and defensively. We have no one in our rotation that size with that ability. I look for Duke to come out fired up especially on defense. I just don't know if we have the ability to come from this far back against a team this good. GoDuke!

dukelifer
11-29-2011, 10:40 PM
I wonder what Tony Parker is thinking right now?

Which one of these teams has won a national championship last? Which team is coached by the best coach?

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:40 PM
We looked about as comfortable in that zone as I did in physics class.

Don't even get me started with physics class...

UrinalCake
11-29-2011, 10:43 PM
Defense pretty good so far in second half - 2 turnovers and almost a third. Can't buy a bucket though.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 10:43 PM
Fifth and sixth post moves by mason to open second half one successful .
Mason for a 7th for a move...stripped

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:43 PM
Just not our night...

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 10:43 PM
This is frustrating. Fouls everywhere we are. I can only hope that they are flat footed for this half, but, after that three, it would appear not. Why aren't we hitting anything tonight? Only two guys are trying to score anymore. That was good effort for Dawkins, but we are getting embarrassed a little here (and I hate to say that)... I may need to stop typing for a while.

duke96
11-29-2011, 10:44 PM
Curry Dawkins Kelly totally out of this game so far. Slash penetration by taller players opening up outside shots and they are hitting everything. That is basically a recipe for disaster.

NYBri
11-29-2011, 10:46 PM
They exposed a really big weakness. Team Defense. And, shut down the outside shot and we fall apart. Lots of time to work on it and this should get them serious about it real quick.

Billy Dat
11-29-2011, 10:46 PM
At least we're playing harder to start the second half...seems like it's their night but the effort seems better.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:46 PM
Ugh, we might lose this one by 35! Total beat-down. Refs are not the reason but...they ain't helping! Seems like OSU gets away with a LOT of hacking and slapping on our post plays - just sayin :)

WVDUKEFAN
11-29-2011, 10:47 PM
Our guys are having trouble shooting because they can't see... They're getting their eyes beat shut. Let's go defense!!! Let's hit some threes and get back in this game!

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 10:47 PM
They exposed a really big weakness. Team Defense. And, shut down the outside shot and we fall apart. Lots of time to work on it and this should get them serious about it real quick.

The bad part is that this is our last big game until February, unless I am mistaken... It will be hard to redeem ourselves.

burns15
11-29-2011, 10:47 PM
This is a team of dead legs. Oh St getting tons of easy open looks. This team is clearly physically and mentally exhausted. There is absolutely no communication happening on D. Guys are apparently too tired to even talk.

How could we possibly be exhausted? We haven't played in six days!

J4Kop99
11-29-2011, 10:48 PM
I want everyone to use discretion when grading Rivers tonight... I have a feeling that OSU has decided that they will man-up Rivers at this point, whether he beats his man or not, just so his teammates do not get open. They know how aggressive Austin is and I think they understand that if they give him a 1 v 1 match-up, he will take it 9 times out of 10. Duke is not going to be able to beat a top-team like OSU with a one-man offense.

I am impressed with Austin's game so far, but I am also taking into consideration that it may be part of OSU's game plan to continue to let him try and go 1 v 1.

dukemsu
11-29-2011, 10:48 PM
Devils look awfully tired.

Schematically, the big guards of OSU have erased Seth and Dawk.

Some very positive play out of Mason, however, and Rivers looks fantastic.

OSU has been pointing to this game for a long time. Hopefully the Devils get another shot in March or April.

dukemsu

duke09hms
11-29-2011, 10:48 PM
As Coach Cut says, "it's time to big boy up".

You know it's bad when we're quoting a Duke Football Coach for inspiration.

uh_no
11-29-2011, 10:48 PM
How could we possibly be exhausted? We haven't played in six days!

I think if we hadn't played in a month OSU would still be making us look like we had "dead legs" they're downright incredible...

A-Tex Devil
11-29-2011, 10:48 PM
Poop. That is all that needs to be said.

But I will add, weak D tentative O and a really damn good Buckeye team are contributing. Please be quiet about the refs. It is maybe a 15 point game if we catch those breaks.

Kfanarmy
11-29-2011, 10:49 PM
the team is unprepared for this game...no real offensive sets, no real defensive scheme being executed....maybe its the team, but the only scoring is coming from individual effort, and there is almost no perimeter D

Gthoma2a
11-29-2011, 10:49 PM
Why just two guys?! That really bothers me. So does our inability to get it done on defense.

Devilsfan
11-29-2011, 10:49 PM
We came out scared. Maybe we need to play a non ACC road game once in a while. I think we lost at Wisconsin too on their home court.

licc85
11-29-2011, 10:49 PM
The refs are certainly being unkind, but we're having no shows from several players, including seth curry, ryan kelly, and andre dawkins, who have, i think, 4 points combined . . . absolutely terrible performance from those 3 thus far, especially on defense. They need to step it up. Mason and Austin can't win it by them themselves.

dukemsu
11-29-2011, 10:50 PM
How could we possibly be exhausted? We haven't played in six days!

Travel from Maui is a bear.

dukemsu

uh_no
11-29-2011, 10:50 PM
The refs are certainly being unkind, but we're having no shows from several players, including seth curry, ryan kelly, and andre dawkins, who have, i think, 4 points combined . . . absolutely terrible performance from those 3 thus far, especially on defense. They need to step it up. Mason and Austin can't win it by them themselves.

I disagree....it's an absolutely phenomenal defensive performance by OSU.

duke96
11-29-2011, 10:51 PM
Poop. That is all that needs to be said.
Please be quiet about the refs. It is maybe a 15 point game if we catch those breaks.

Well said.

hurleyfor3
11-29-2011, 10:52 PM
We came out scared. Maybe we need to play a non ACC road game once in a while. I think we lost at Wisconsin too on their home court.

Maybe this year will end up the same way. Although I don't recall trailing by 22 in that game.

Ultrarunner
11-29-2011, 10:52 PM
Mason with 4 strong post moves 1st half. Scored on 3 of them.
Kelly 0 post moves attempted.
Miles 0 post moves attempted.

You missed the give and go for Miles...or does rhat post play not count.....

burns15
11-29-2011, 10:52 PM
the team is unprepared for this game...no real offensive sets, no real defensive scheme being executed....maybe its the team, but the only scoring is coming from individual effort, and there is almost no perimeter D

We look either completely unprepared or completely not interested, with the exception of Rivers and Mason. God forbid someone call a foul on Ohio State...K is hot now, that's when you know the officiating has been bad...but we would still be losing regardless

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2011, 10:52 PM
Mason baseline dunk 8

sporthenry
11-29-2011, 10:53 PM
Please be quiet about the refs. It is maybe a 15 point game if we catch those breaks.

Not sure how getting right calls is catching breaks, and while we have been outplayed I think we often tend to dismiss how important those calls would have been. Imagine if Craft got called for every hand check, then he wouldn't be in the game. If Sullinger had 2 or 3 fouls and either gave up the paint or was taken out of the game. Then the defense can focus on Thomas, etc. And look what happened to Duke when Mason got a 2nd foul called, our team fell apart.

ChrisP
11-29-2011, 10:53 PM
Poop. That is all that needs to be said.

But I will add, weak D tentative O and a really damn good Buckeye team are contributing. Please be quiet about the refs. It is maybe a 15 point game if we catch those breaks.

I'll be quiet about the refs when they give me a reason to - and when K gets quiet about it, too. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a "T" here soon. This is ridiculous.

WVDUKEFAN
11-29-2011, 10:53 PM
I just hope we get it back to a respectable deficit. Coach K is about to get "T'd". Go Coach K!!

NYBri
11-29-2011, 10:53 PM
Not four in double figures. Four have scored. Wow. A total nightmare.

Bluedog
11-29-2011, 10:54 PM
Hey, at least we've taken the crowd out of basically the whole game. ;) But seriously, we'll grow from this game no matter what. Mason and Austin have played well offensively, and our defense has been terrible. I'm glad it's on the schedule; I expect us to be a better team in the end for having played this game. Hopefully, we can make improvements for the rest of the game and see some positives. Nice to see Silent G get some minutes and see what he can do.

Fuqua's Finest
11-29-2011, 10:56 PM
And now Miles thinks he Paulus. Smh...How bout you try to block the shot instead of squaring up for a charge...Sighs...