MBB: Duke vs. Ohio St. Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[J4Kop99]

Mason baseline dunk 8

I know you are counting these post moves or whatever... but what are you comparing the numbers too? Say Mason ends up with 13... what does that mean, exactly?

[NYBri]

That's for Carolina fans. We are having our lunch handed to us. Period.

[duke09hms]

Maybe Mason and Austin are playing for their nba draft stock?

[Eternal Outlaw]

I want everyone to use discretion when grading Rivers tonight... I have a feeling that OSU has decided that they will man-up Rivers at this point, whether he beats his man or not, just so his teammates do not get open. They know how aggressive Austin is and I think they understand that if they give him a 1 v 1 match-up, he will take it 9 times out of 10. Duke is not going to be able to beat a top-team like OSU with a one-man offense.

I am impressed with Austin's game so far, but I am also taking into consideration that it may be part of OSU's game plan to continue to let him try and go 1 v 1.

According to yahoo, Austin has 4 of the team's 6 assists so he is finding open guys.

[wgl1228]

I know his D hasn't been good but I can't believe we haven't run anything for Dawkins.

[uh_no]

I know his D hasn't been good but I can't believe we haven't run anything for Dawkins.

he's being guarded by a guy like 4" taller than him

[Kfanarmy]

We look either completely unprepared or completely not interested, with the exception of Rivers and Mason. God forbid someone call a foul on Ohio State...K is hot now, that's when you know the officiating has been bad...but we would still be losing regardless there is no attempt to screen for anyone. only assists in this game are drive and dunks. as the moniker implies I'm a big K fan, but K should be pissed, his team doesn't seem to have a strategy.

[A-Tex Devil]

I'll be quiet about the refs when they give me a reason to - and when K gets quiet about it, too. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a "T" here soon. This is ridiculous.

All I am saying is that if we got every supposed bad call that went against us we are still losing this game by a lot. The buckeyes are better, combined with them playing better than average and us worse. It sucks but it's non-conference and beginning of year. Next play. I am tabbing out at the bar and getting a good nights sleep. If they come back, awesome. I we don't, we'll learn from this. I am disappointed but already over it.

[aro24]

Anyone else have the same feeling watching this game as they did watching the game against Arizone back in the Spring? Just getting beat. Chalk it up to one of those nights.

[FerryFor50]

OSU is playing good D, *but* beyond the hand-checking by Craft, I don't see how the following plays were not fouls:

1) Sullinger flopping on Mason's post move; is that not a block?
2) Craft taking out Mason's legs and then Mason getting called for a travel
3) Mason getting pushed on a drive and going out of bounds... like he went out on his own?

Other those pretty egregious missed calls, the refs have been ok. But I have my doubts about the "OSU plays D without fouling" mantra the announcers are spouting.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

".....there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them."

I made that observation about Duke in the big man perception thread and it caused some healthy debate.

My argument is that if Duke would play to the post offense with more focus, more aggressiveness, they could play more balanced and be an even better team.

I think Mason and Kelly, and even Miles are capable of putting more pressure on post defenders with offensive post moves, which would open things up for Duke's shooters, and that it will be a necessary part of team play for them to win a title.

Some have argued that Duke already does that, but I don't think they do it near enough. So tonight I will be watching this game and counting the entry passes to a Duke post player that result in an offensive move to the rim. The definition of what I am looking for is above in bold.

I'll post the count in this thread, in short notes from my phone, because I won't be watching from home.

I'm not talking about follow ups, rebounds, or dribble drive dishes from a guard. I'm talking about 1/2 court entry passes that a big makes an offensive move from in the paint.

I think it will be interesting to see just how many, or how few, "traditional" post offensive scoring attempts Duke makes tonight.

So, that's what Ill be looking for tonight, along with getting my first look at Sullinger this season..

This is a battle. The war is won or lost in March.

This will explain what I'm counting

[Billy Dat]

Silent G showing a little something out there.

[uh_no]

Anyone else have the same feeling watching this game as they did watching the game against Arizone back in the Spring? Just getting beat. Chalk it up to one of those nights.

I'm sure that's what K will say to the team....just chalk it up....

That's sarcasm.

There are dozens of things that we can work on, and just shrugging off getting ours handed to us is not the way to get better.

[jv001]

All of our 3s are being contested by taller players. They scouted us well and have taken that part of our offense away. GoDuke!

[hurleyfor3]

Looks like we're sleeping on the couch tonight.

[jv001]

This will explain what I'm counting

Don't you have something better to do? I think I hear Mrs. Wheat calling you,lol

[anon]

I'm sure that's what K will say to the team....just chalk it up....

That's sarcasm.

There are dozens of things that we can work on, and just shrugging off getting ours handed to us is not the way to get better.

Can't it be both? We lost, we got beat — next play — but let's make sure it never happens again.

[aro24]

I'm sure that's what K will say to the team....just chalk it up....

That's sarcasm.

There are dozens of things that we can work on, and just shrugging off getting ours handed to us is not the way to get better.

I am not saying that from the perspective of a coach or player, but as a fan. I am sure that the coaches will have a field day in the video room with this one.

[duke09hms]

All of our 3s are being contested by taller players. They scouted us well and have taken that part of our offense away. GoDuke!

It's Greg Paulus' fault.

[Fuqua's Finest]

I'm sorry to keep harping on this but Miles Plumlee is seriously regressing. I mean a guy steps ups to guard Austin Rivers on the drive and instead of cutting to the goal for a dunk or layup he stays at the 3 point line and star gazes at Rivers. Seriously disappointed in him....

[uh_no]

Can't it be both? We lost, we got beat — next play — but let's make sure it never happens again.

in the words of coach K "Here's to never forgetting"

[ChrisP]

I've been complaining about the refs all night and despite other posters' whining about that, I'll continue to voice my opinion, thank you very much. I will be the first to say that we're not losing because of the refs. But I do think we're losing by a lot more because of them. People keep commenting on how two-dimensional we've been and that's certainly true, but I really do wonder if some of the other guys didn't hang their heads a little and let this absolutely horrid officiating mess with their heads. I think that with better, more even-handed officiating, we'd probably be down about 12 right now. That wouldn't be too bad, I think, given the fact that it's a road game and the number of games we've played in the past week and a half. But, at least it wouldn't be totally embarrassing like it is now.

[jv001]

It's Greg Paulus' fault.

Traitor, lol.

[J4Kop99]

Is Vitale this annoying when Duke is winning big? I can't stand him when he is announcing a game that Duke is losing badly. Too much down time for him to talk about random crap.

[duke96]

Austin is going to be awesome. His and Mason's play today have been as positive as all else has been negative. OSU is a spectacular team playing better than average. Match up with us exceptionally well. Hard to imagine us developing into a team that would be expected to beat them on a neutral court, even by the end of the year -- but certainly not a team we couldn't beat in March under the right circumstances. Glad we have this game to show us, early on, what we would need to live up to if we are to compete at the highest level this year. OSU looks to be quite a bit better than Kentucky.

[aro24]

in the words of coach K "Here's to never forgetting"

Use it and learn from it....but you can't dwell on it.

[FerryFor50]

It's Greg Paulus' fault.

Definitely the top video guy in the country.

[uh_no]

Is Vitale this annoying when Duke is winning big? I can't stand him when he is announcing a game that Duke is losing badly. Too much down time for him to talk about random crap.

yessir

[duke09hms]

Glad to see Mike Gbinijie get good minutes and produce, especially on the defensive end. Gonna need him to guard harrison barnes. After tonight, I don't want to see Andre guarding anyone - especially a future NBAer

[feldspar]

Maybe this year will end up the same way. Although I don't recall trailing by 22 in that game.

Oh no this is way more like the Georgetown game from that season.

[FerryFor50]

Is Vitale this annoying when Duke is winning big? I can't stand him when he is announcing a game that Duke is losing badly. Too much down time for him to talk about random crap.

Better than listening to Bilas call a Duke or UNC game and trying his hardest to sound more like a UNC grad than a Duke grad.

[jv001]

I know we've recvd some pretty questionable calls in this game, but not enough to make that much difference. We're getting out toughed and that's the simple truth. We don't want to sound like the tarhell fans at ic do we? GoDuke!

[Devilsfan]

Well there's always the Victoria Secret models show. At least they look good.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Don't you have something better to do? I think I hear Mrs. Wheat calling you,lol

Can't think of anything better than this game, right now. :)

[IBleedBlue]

Last time we went to Wisconsin for ACC/Big Ten Challenge, we kept it close and came within a possession of tying the game. This one is out of reach and it shows - Our inability to score if the opposing team keeps their defenders in front of our shooters and not help on the drive and lack of depth. What surprising is OSU also plays a relatively short bench like ours.
Hopefully, we will be tinkering more with line up after tonight.

[jipops]

This will explain what I'm counting

It would still be greater than the number of NCAA tournament wins UNC has without a traditional point guard as the primary ball handler, kind of like what Duke has been playing without for much of the past decade. And I'm not talking about that dumb theory of speedy pg. You know, since we're talking "conventional".

[dcar1985]

Sadly my pregame thoughts of what we needed to stop happen....I figured Buford and Sully would get off but that we needed to stop Thomas from having a career night, which is what he's having....didn't expect us to come out w/ zero intensity though....Teams get so amped to play Duke though, its gotta be really hard to match that.

[A-Tex Devil]

I've been complaining about the refs all night and despite other posters' whining about that, I'll continue to voice my opinion, thank you very much. I will be the first to say that we're not losing because of the refs. But I do think we're losing by a lot more because of them. People keep commenting on how two-dimensional we've been and that's certainly true, but I really do wonder if some of the other guys didn't hang their heads a little and let this absolutely horrid officiating mess with their heads. I think that with better, more even-handed officiating, we'd probably be down about 12 right now. That wouldn't be too bad, I think, given the fact that it's a road game and the number of games we've played in the past week and a half. But, at least it wouldn't be totally embarrassing like it is now.

I guess my opinion is that the refs are about near the bottom of the reasons we are losing by ~20. I am not saying the officiating is perfect, but this hasn't been some egregious game in my opinion. Yeah, the second call on mason was bad but this is hardly UConn on the 2004 final four. We just got smoked.

[uh_no]

We just got smoked.

I could use some Smokey's BBQ right about now....

[Gthoma2a]

I don't get this at all... We just haven't been playing like us out there. I thought it may be an issue that we didn't have anyone ready to play at the 3 other than Dawkins. Dawkins is a great shooter, but he is 6'4 against a 6'8 guy. That is not an easy matchup to shoot over. I am having chest pains from what is happening to us, though.

I worry about a loss like this to a young team like we are making us think that we can't compete against the top teams. We haven't looked like we can tonight, but I hope we realize that it is just tonight (hopefully).

[hurleyfor3]

I could use some Smokey's BBQ right about now....

I could use a fifth of Smirnoff.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

9 th attempt by mason weak

10th good dunk

[FerryFor50]

What I hate most about this game is how guys like Aaron Craft and Thomas, who rarely score, are the ones carrying OSU and not Buford or Sullinger.

What I like is how K is playing the young guys in the blowout. Sending a message to the other guys?

[#1Duke]

We caught a good team playing well at home... it happens.
Ohio is playing excellent defense and shutting down our shooters.
It's the first real test this year and everyone will see what we need to work on.
It isn't the refs or calls, it's Ohio's defense and their ability to shut Duke down.
Coaching staff needs to work on this.

[uh_no]

jeez hairston.....if he can hit that shot with any consistency....

[duke96]

I guess my opinion is that the refs are about near the bottom of the reasons we are losing by ~20. I am not saying the officiating is perfect, but this hasn't been some egregious game in my opinion. Yeah, the second call on mason was bad but this is hardly UConn on the 2004 final four. We just got smoked.

Correct. Whining about refs when we are down by 24 and getting thoroughly smoked on both ends of the court may even be below Carolina fans, more like Maryland.

C

[J4Kop99]

OSU just toying with the perimeter defense...

[_Gary]

It would still be greater than the number of NCAA tournament wins UNC has without a traditional point guard as the primary ball handler, kind of like what Duke has been playing without for much of the past decade. And I'm not talking about that dumb theory of speedy pg. You know, since we're talking "conventional".

A big A-M-E-N to that one! I'd love to see how UNC would have performed without having the true PG's that they've had almost every single year. Duke would have about 4 or 5 more championships if given comparable situations to work with. No doubt about that.

Having said all that, I'm firmly in the camp that says don't feed the UNC trolls, or even the UNC semi-trolls.

[anon]

What I hate most about this game is how guys like Aaron Craft and Thomas, who rarely score, are the ones carrying OSU and not Buford or Sullinger.

What I like is how K is playing the young guys in the blowout. Sending a message to the other guys?

Maybe a little bit, but I think it's more about getting them some experience in a big-time game.

[A-Tex Devil]

Something that is also telling, and maybe already mentioned - considering how talented OSU is, it is interesting that the only two guys to show up are our two best consensus NBA prospects.

[Devilsfan]

On Wisconsin! Let's go Badgers!

[duke09hms]

This game is leading me to question whether Seth has the sufficient athleticism and Andre has the sufficient mental abilities to lead Duke.

Seth - sure Scheyer wasn't super fast but he was also 6-5. Seth is 6-1.

Andre - exposed on D, still no ball-handling necessary for a 6-4 guard.

Like what we're seeing from Josh and Mike though.

[J4Kop99]

I had no idea Michigan lost until now... Virginia? Really?

[G man]

This is one of those games where everything is going right for our opponent and nothing is going right for us!

[Fuqua's Finest]

Very impressed with Gbinije's defense. He is very good at moving his feet and not going for the jab step fake. He's going to be a defensive stud for us. I wish we would let him show his offensive set. Glad to see Josh hit some shots.

[jipops]

You think K will start laying into some Iron Dukes after this loss? Oh wait, we don't have a coach with that kind of personality defect.

[dukebluelemur]

Don't really have much to say. I'll probably just copy this into the 'official' postgame thread later. Thoughts: Rivers is the real deal, his ability to get to the rim at will was about the only positive to come out of this game. A shame he was playing by himself. Mason was the best player we had on the floor at times... then the worst at times. So inconsistent. Our defense was atrocious, so many open men/lost assignments. Finally, our team captains really screwed the pooch today, Kelly especially. Did he even play? Fanboys want to comment?

[uh_no]

Maybe a little bit, but I think it's more about getting them some experience in a big-time game.

I think it's that and K trying to find something that works....if you want to go far in march you have to have a plan on how you're going to beat teams like this....we could very well run into OSU in the tournament....and now K has a wider range of ideas that may or may not work

[Billy Dat]

What I like is how K is playing the young guys in the blowout. Sending a message to the other guys?

Me, too. He's rewarding Mason and Austin and letting everyone else know they were severely lacking. i hope everyone pining for Cook and Gbinije are happy...too bad Murphy hasn't seen the floor, it could be a clean sweep for the deep rotation contingent here on DBR.

[ChrisP]

Correct. Whining about refs when we are down by 24 and getting thoroughly smoked on both ends of the court may even be below Carolina fans, more like Maryland.

C

Well, for the record, I was complaining about the refs when it was a LOT closer than 24 :D

[Wheat/"/"/"]

11 nice baseline move by mason...fouled

[ChrisP]

I think it's that and K trying to find something that works....if you want to go far in march you have to have a plan on how you're going to beat teams like this....we could very well run into OSU in the tournament....and now K has a wider range of ideas that may or may not work

I think there are some guys that are UNDER the dog house right now. That would be Curry, Dawkins and Kelly.

[duke96]

Well, for the record, I was complaining about the refs when it was a LOT closer than 24 :D

Ha. Yeah, I would have at least thought we could have narrowed the gap in H2. OSU is crazy good.

[jipops]

Craft is destroying us in the 2nd half. More evidence of dead legs. He's facing very little ball pressure.

[J4Kop99]

This is like a reverse of the Arizona game.

-Vs. 'Zona, Duke got killed in the 2nd half but kept it close in the 1st.

-Tonight, Duke got rocked in the 1st half but is tied in the 2nd.

[FerryFor50]

The only thing about this game that reminds me of Arizona last year is our freshman guard coming up big in a blowout.

Other than that, not many similarities outside of the deficit. No Derek Williams scoring 35, no giant posterizing dunks. Just an all-around effort from OSU instead of a monster effort and solid contributions from Arizona's backup singers.

[gls6]

man we got hammered. this sucks. no excuses for this one. They just outplayed the hell out of us

[hq2]

The complete collapse of our perimeter game in this game reminds me suspiciously of the 06 LSU debacle.
None other than Greg Paulus was running the offense in that game. Think he knew something about our
perimeter offense in this one?

[ChrisP]

Ok, this is it - 4 mins to go. We got em' right where we want em'! I understand the sentiment behind all that "next play" cra...err...I mean stuff, but I kinda hope that the players reflect on just how poorly the team played tonight and use it as motivation to get better - fast!

[aro24]

Looking like Big 10 will win the challenge again this year.

[Kfanarmy]

OK, so you have a team that is 7 deep. Why did Duke not try full court or 3/4 court pressure to wear these guys down a bit?

[anon]

I think it's that and K trying to find something that works....if you want to go far in march you have to have a plan on how you're going to beat teams like this....we could very well run into OSU in the tournament....and now K has a wider range of ideas that may or may not work

Whatever his motives, it's good to see some quality minutes from Hairston and Gbinije.

[G man]

The only thing about this game that reminds me of Arizona last year is our freshman guard coming up big in a blowout.

Other than that, not many similarities outside of the deficit. No Derek Williams scoring 35, no giant posterizing dunks. Just an all-around effort from OSU instead of a monster effort and solid contributions from Arizona's backup singers.

I was meaning more along the lines in the way the game feels (should have been more specific). Just feels terrible.

[jv001]

What I hate most about this game is how guys like Aaron Craft and Thomas, who rarely score, are the ones carrying OSU and not Buford or Sullinger.

What I like is how K is playing the young guys in the blowout. Sending a message to the other guys?

What I hate most is Sullinger laughing as if to say " you are not in our class". GoDuke!

[6th Man]

This Duke team has got to learn how to play defense. A lot of open 3's. Kelly is great against average teams, but has trouble with superior squads. I wasn't expecting such a route, but I am still happy with Maui and this team will get a lot better. Fortunately this is November and not March.

[J4Kop99]

Hey, does anybody know much about Sullinger's personality? Is he a class kid? Does he make great speeches at banquets? Heard any stories?

[CDu]

Craft is destroying us in the 2nd half. More evidence of dead legs. He's facing very little ball pressure.

Why would we have dead legs? We haven't played in six days and we have been home since Friday.

[dairedevil]

We've actually played Ohio State even in the second half.
Think we'll see more of Hairston, Gbinje & Cook?

[ChrisP]

Ouch! Hope that OSU dude is ok. That looked - and sounded - ugly :(

[PSurprise]

With some of the (lack of) play tonight, it will be interesting to see who starts next game. Of course a lot will depend on practice, but I hope K takes a look at some of the guys playing in the 2nd half. Hopefully this will be a wake up call to the captains to get their stuff together

[FerryFor50]

What I hate most is Sullinger laughing as if to say " you are not in our class". GoDuke!

Eh, he can laugh all he wants. He won't be laughing when they lose early in the NCAAs (again).

OSU has Kansas syndrome, circa Roy Williams-era. Tons of talent, very little championships to show for it.

[ChrisP]

We've actually played Ohio State even in the second half.
Think we'll see more of Hairston, Gbinje & Cook?

Well, I hope not. Nothing against those guys, but if they're in the game playing significant minutes for us this year, it likely means we're getting our a** handed to us like tonight.

[J4Kop99]

With some of the (lack of) play tonight, it will be interesting to see who starts next game. Of course a lot will depend on practice, but I hope K takes a look at some of the guys playing in the 2nd half. Hopefully this will be a wake up call to the captains to get their stuff together

The only player I could see missing from next games starting 5 would be Dawkins.

[Devilsfan]

At least #13 is athletic, something we really need. Wait I'm sounding like that idiot Gottleib.

[aro24]

Ouch! Hope that OSU dude is ok. That looked - and sounded - ugly :(

Been there, done that. He will be walking funny for a few days. Glad to see he is ok though.

[gls6]

cmon let's lose by less than 20!

[Tappan Zee Devil]

11 nice baseline move by mason...fouled


May your waders get flooded with water.

[FerryFor50]

The only player I could see missing from next games starting 5 would be Dawkins.

I doubt the starting 5 changes very much at all.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

12 another nice baseline move my mason ...got fouled

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is a team of dead legs. Oh St getting tons of easy open looks. This team is clearly physically and mentally exhausted. There is absolutely no communication happening on D. Guys are apparently too tired to even talk.

I keep hearing this... We haven't played in six days. Am I missing something?

We're just flat out getting smoked. Can't blame legs.

[gwlaw99]

Well at least we played them even the second half.

[PSurprise]

I don't want to sound too critical of Andre, but I hope he realizes that he might have to move to get open in the offense. If you watched him tonight (and there wasn't much of him to see), he rarely moves; and when he does, a lot of it is jogging from say, one side of the court to another. I don't expect him to be JJ running everyone around the court, but it would be nice to see Andre work a little harder to get in a position for a good shot. That was the beauty of JJ-you could watch him run his guy all over the court, use the screen, and swish.

[jipops]

Why would we have dead legs? We haven't played in six days and we have been home since Friday.

5 of last 6 games on the road. Three in a row in Maui and the final was a very emotional win. We appear physically and emotionally drained. Just look at how incredibly slow our defensive rotations are. I've recorded this game, I may actually watch it again just to torture myself. Guys are getting wide open shots 8 ft from the hoop. I could be wrong, but I just see a team that either has dead legs or they're just extremely slow, and I don't think we're that slow.

[feldspar]

Ah, yes...the "overrated" chant!!

[mlove3]

that three, summary of the night

[duke09hms]

I doubt the starting 5 changes very much at all.

I'd rather see Mike get more minutes - clearly cares more about defense than Andre.

[throatybeard]

Where did you get the idea from me that UNC has anything to do with the debate about how coach K and Duke chooses to use the bigs in the post offense?

It probably has to do with how you've been beating the same idea to death for the last fifteen years in this forum. UNC has awesome post presence; Duke does not. It's an extremely tired schtick, even in the years when it's accurate. It reflects a 1975esque, Dean Smith-based, almost religious orthodoxy about post presence. Context is context.

Funny how Wheat disappeared for most of the 2010 season, when we beat them easily twice and won it all, and then he shows back up when UNC is competitive with us in 2011. Disappears again for a while, and then suddenly reappears just as we're about to face a team against whom we're totally overmatched. No coincidence, I'm sure.


Ah, yes...the "overrated" chant!!

Yeah. That there, man, those are some braindead fans. You come into the game favored and chant over-rated at the team you just beat.