Carolina Next Year - - Will Graves Booted from Team (10/7)

[uh_no]

I'm having a hard time understanding your post, but perhaps you are getting the definition of frontcourt and backcourt confused and are thus misunderstanding what I was trying to say?

oops

uh_no's credibility just dropped from about 15% to like -4%........yes I mentally flipped them.....your post makes like 100x more sense now.....

[gumbomoop]

thank you for taking the time to write a novel.

If you want to have two players average what one player does, fine by me. I think Zeller will be our 2nd or 3rd leading scorer this season. Your bigs may not be your 4th or 5th leading scorer. This will not make them any better or worse than Z, but it will make them under-utilized. But, you have so many other weapons- and if you are on every night, you will not need much balance. Look at last year, there was zero balance for Duke, but the chips fell your way.

I rather enjoyed CLT Devil's novella; thought it quite well argued.

It's possible Zeller will indeed be your 2d-3d. I'd sure be shocked if anyone other than HB was top scorer. After that, you got a bunch of guys who will score in double-figures intermittently. If Zeller is healthy and plays 24-25 mpg, he could outscore Henson and maybe Graves. I got no clue as to how quickly Bullock will adjust, but I would think with all those wing players, he'll be among the "double-figure-intermittents."

I don't think the MPs and RK will be under- or mis-used. This is actually the single most important difference, I think, in my and perhaps other posters' position from your view. Zeller's potential break-out skills are simply not as valuable for this year's Duke team as what RK and the MPs seem poised to bring to the court. The MPs will score plenty of alley-oopers, plus some dandy dunkeroos on their own, put-backs of a more pedestrian variety, the occasional elbow jumper from MP1, and possibly the very occasional 3 from MP2. RK will excel as high-post passer and 3-bomber. And all 3 seem likely to be more physical on both O and D than Zeller. Really, there's a big need for Knox to play tough [you agree, I trust], as Zeller has thus far not shown such inclinations, and Henson just isn't yet physically hardened, however dramatic and useful his shot-blocking.

The chips fell our way - a lovely little denigration - in large part because - here you may have missed my own serialized novel - Duke was actually the actual best team in March-April '10.

[ACCBBallFan]

I rather enjoyed CLT Devil's novella; thought it quite well argued.

It's possible Zeller will indeed be your 2d-3d. I'd sure be shocked if anyone other than HB was top scorer. After that, you got a bunch of guys who will score in double-figures intermittently. If Zeller is healthy and plays 24-25 mpg, he could outscore Henson and maybe Graves. I got no clue as to how quickly Bullock will adjust, but I would think with all those wing players, he'll be among the "double-figure-intermittents."

I don't think the MPs and RK will be under- or mis-used. This is actually the single most important difference, I think, in my and perhaps other posters' position from your view. Zeller's potential break-out skills are simply not as valuable for this year's Duke team as what RK and the MPs seem poised to bring to the court. The MPs will score plenty of alley-oopers, plus some dandy dunkeroos on their own, put-backs of a more pedestrian variety, the occasional elbow jumper from MP1, and possibly the very occasional 3 from MP2. RK will excel as high-post passer and 3-bomber. And all 3 seem likely to be more physical on both O and D than Zeller. Really, there's a big need for Knox to play tough [you agree, I trust], as Zeller has thus far not shown such inclinations, and Henson just isn't yet physically hardened, however dramatic and useful his shot-blocking.

The chips fell our way - a lovely little denigration - in large part because - here you may have missed my own serialized novel - Duke was actually the actual best team in March-April '10.

I especially agree with the middle paragraghs.

[moonpie23]

i think that general confidence will play heavily into next year's tarhole team.....I've said before, if barnes comes in, dominates, instantly makes the team "his" and wins a few tight nail biters, the sour taste of last season's manure patch could become a garden once again...

BUT!!!! if he comes in and is NOT the saviour, and the holes lose to a couple of middle-grade OOC games......the "State of the Sinking Feeling" will again descend upon the well-worshippers......

imho, i think it's gonna be bullock's team......he's the trash-talking bravado filled ego that was missing last year...


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[moonpie23]

but the chips fell your way..

always with the backhand, eh kong?

let me just set the record str8.....the chips didn't just "fall duke's way" any more than they fell UNC's way the previous year.

duke TOOK the title......they beat the little opener, then they took out the spectre of jason kid, and then they put the "athletic team that duke could not possibly hang with" OUT in basically a home game for them...

after that, they methodically ripped the the team that ripped the "chosen one's" team and then they boxed cinderella's ears and sent them home in a pumpkin...

so, while we all appreciate you coming in with a general non-foaming-at-the-mouth tarhole stance, i just want to remind you that the little digs don't go unnoticed.


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_2.gif

[oldnavy]

I would also take any of our guys over Zeller because I hope they will improve more and become better players, but in terms of production so far, I think you have to give the edge to Zeller. I guess he doesn't yell and jump up and down as much as you might like, (and certainly not as well as the Plumlees) but he scored at an efficient rate.


I expect and hope you are correct. All I am saying is that Miles, Mason, and Ryan have not shown in games (not including Pro-Am) that they are miles ahead (pun intended) of Zeller like you seem to be saying.

His stats are more impressive than Miles, Mason or Ryan though and I would be very happy to have a returning big man who scored almost 10ppg on 53% shooting.
Alright, I decided to check this theory.
vs. Ohio St. 16 minutes, 2-6 FG, 6 pts, 3 rebounds
vs. Syracuse 16 minutes, 4-8 FG, 9 pts, 1 rebound
vs. MSU 13 minutes, 3-8 FG, 6 pts, 5 rebounds
vs. Kentucky 14 minutes, 5-10 FG, 10 pts, 5 rebouns
vs. Texas 15 minutes, 7-8 FG, 16 pts, 3 rebounds
Total vs. preseason top 25 teams 14.8 mpg, 21-40 FG (52.5%), 9.4 PPG, 3.4 RPG
ACC games (after injury)
vs. BC 16 minutes 2-9 FG, 9 pts, 7 rebounds
vs. FSU 19 minutes 2-5 FG, 5 pts, 2 rebounds
vs. Wake 14 minutes, 4-7 FG, 8 pts, 4 rebounds
vs. Miami 18 minutes, 2-6 FG, 6 pts, 5 rebounds
vs. Duke 18 minutes, 4-8 FG, 8 pts, 1 rebound
vs. GT 25 minutes, 7-11 FG, 17 pts, 10 rebounds
Total vs. ACC 18.3 MPG, 21-46 FG (45.7%), 8.8 PPG, 4.8 RPG

I don't see this tremendous drop you are talking about against either the top OOC teams or in the ACC games that he played in.


I agree with you that Zeller isn't that imposing for a 7-footer and he may not be someone that Duke has to worry about containing when they play. Where I disagree with you is that you talk about what you have seen so far leads you to pick the Plumlees and Ryan over him and all I am saying is that he had better offensive numbers last year than any of the Plumlees or Kelly. You can play with the numbers anyway you like, but that's the way it is. He so far has been somewhat of an average run of the mill type big guy in the ACC, but the players who do that in their first seasons tend to be the above average performers in their upperclass years. I am not saying this is guaranteed, but that often happens. The problem with the list of players you have listed that you rate as better than him in the ACC is that I don't think any of them (except for Trapani, who is a 3-4, or Wood, a wing forward) have had any better numbers than he has so far. Maybe they all will this year, but that goes against your argument of what you have seen so far. I don't know if Zeller will make any of the all-ACC teams this year; I think he probably will be close. Trapani is the only player (aside from Mason or Miles who I am expecting to improve so that one of them makes it and maybe Leslie, freshman, hard to project) you have listed that I think will and there aren't that many big guys to rate ahead of him. I would certainly pick Tracey Smith ahead of him.

Zeller certainly hasn't been a powerhouse yet, but I find it amazing how you will deflate his numbers compared to Duke's returning players when statistically, he has done much more offensively than Miles, Mason or Ryan to this point in their careers. I hope and expect all three of Miles, Mason and Ryan to break out and have great years and hopefully surpass what Zeller has done in the past and hopefully what he does this coming year, but I think you are being biased if you think there is not an possibility for a 7-footer who has been injured during his underclassmen years, could possibly be healthy and improve during his upperclassmen years. IMO

I have been very clear in stating that I am basing my opinion of Zeller on his past performance, not what he may do in the future. In fact I said that IF he has a bust out year he may become a great player, so I do not see the bias you refer too at all. In fact, I made a point to say that Henson and Barnes will probably be All ACC caliber players, so I really cannot agree with you that I am being biased against UNC. Once again and for the last time my point is I think that Zeller has been overrated based on his on court performance thus far. I have not compared any stats with any Duke player at all and even made the commmet that trying to do so would be like comparing apples to oranges. Zellers stats from last year are very modest. Here they are directly from the UNC offical page:
## Player GP-GS Min--Avg FG-FGA Pct 3FG-FGA Pct FT-FTA Pct Off Def Tot Avg PF FO A TO Blk Stl Pts Avg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
44 T Zeller 27-0 469 17.4 100-192 .521 0-2 .000 52-72 .722 52 73 125 4.6 49 0 7 34 24 14 252 9.3
Conference-Only 6-0 105 17.5 15-39 .385 0-0 .000 9-15 .600 14 12 26 4.3 10 0 2 14 5 4 39 6.5

Average at best. Now that is the past. If we want to look into the future, I completely stand by may statement that I would take either MP1 or MP2 over Zeller in a heart beat. I believe both of those kids have way more up side than Ty Zeller. Now maybe you can say I am being biased in my thinking on this point and maybe I am, but having watched them all play just about every game in college, I would not hesitate to pick the Plumlees over Zeller and I haven't even looked at the Plumlees stat lines.

[NSDukeFan]

I have been very clear in stating that I am basing my opinion of Zeller on his past performance, not what he may do in the future. In fact I said that IF he has a bust out year he may become a great player, so I do not see the bias you refer too at all. In fact, I made a point to say that Henson and Barnes will probably be All ACC caliber players, so I really cannot agree with you that I am being biased against UNC. Once again and for the last time my point is I think that Zeller has been overrated based on his on court performance thus far. I have not compared any stats with any Duke player at all and even made the commmet that trying to do so would be like comparing apples to oranges. Zellers stats from last year are very modest. Here they are directly from the UNC offical page:
## Player GP-GS Min--Avg FG-FGA Pct 3FG-FGA Pct FT-FTA Pct Off Def Tot Avg PF FO A TO Blk Stl Pts Avg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
44 T Zeller 27-0 469 17.4 100-192 .521 0-2 .000 52-72 .722 52 73 125 4.6 49 0 7 34 24 14 252 9.3
Conference-Only 6-0 105 17.5 15-39 .385 0-0 .000 9-15 .600 14 12 26 4.3 10 0 2 14 5 4 39 6.5

Average at best. Now that is the past. If we want to look into the future, I completely stand by may statement that I would take either MP1 or MP2 over Zeller in a heart beat. I believe both of those kids have way more up side than Ty Zeller. Now maybe you can say I am being biased in my thinking on this point and maybe I am, but having watched them all play just about every game in college, I would not hesitate to pick the Plumlees over Zeller and I haven't even looked at the Plumlees stat lines.

I completely agree with the bolded points and I would take Ryan Kelly for the next 3 years over Zeller for two easily as well. And I am biased, and think and hope that all three of our big guys are going to be very good to great ACC players, whether this year, or in the next few years.

[Jeff Frosh]

thank you for taking the time to write a novel.

first, i believe if you read more posts than simply mine, you will see that Duke fans on this board are questioning him as well.

I simply said that it is possible that Zeller improves this year. I also think that having Hans, Thompson, and Davis in front of you may open up a look for you, but I also think that he was a 5th option when on the floor. There is no doubt he has a lot to prove, but completely dismissing him isn't fair and that is what Navy is doing.

If you want to have two players average what one player does, fine by me. I think Zeller will be our 2nd or 3rd leading scorer this season. Your bigs may not be your 4th or 5th leading scorer. This will not make them any better or worse than Z, but it will make them under-utilized. But, you have so many other weapons- and if you are on every night, you will not need much balance. Look at last year, there was zero balance for Duke, but the chips fell your way.

I am sorry you spent so much time dissecting my post and really missed the point. I have no problem with a Duke fan being a Duke fan. Hate UNC all you want. But, when someone goes on and on and debates the same thing with his own kind and doesn't appear to want to open his mind to something, not agree with it but just see a different point of view, then I see that he has been blinded by his bias.

I don't understand your bolded statement above. Do you think there was zero balance because most of our scoring came from three players? Do you think there was a lack of frontcourt vs. backcourt balance? I just don't get this at all.

[uh_no]

I don't understand your bolded statement above. Do you think there was zero balance because most of our scoring came from three players? Do you think there was a lack of frontcourt vs. backcourt balance? I just don't get this at all.

apparently when you have 3 players averaging over 15 pts a game, you don't have any balance......or maybe he was just thinking about zoubeks play in his first three years and failed to watch him last year due to the misery his own team was in.....i think balance might mean having arguably your best players have off nights in various games against some of the best teams in the country and still winning.....kong doesn't know much about winning though

[El_Diablo]

apparently when you have 3 players averaging over 15 pts a game, you don't have any balance......or maybe he was just thinking about zoubeks play in his first three years and failed to watch him last year due to the misery his own team was in.....i think balance might mean having arguably your best players have off nights in various games against some of the best teams in the country and still winning.....kong doesn't know much about winning though

Well, to his credit, UNC was actually really balanced last year. Everyone on the roster was mediocre.

[kong123]

apparently when you have 3 players averaging over 15 pts a game, you don't have any balance......or maybe he was just thinking about zoubeks play in his first three years and failed to watch him last year due to the misery his own team was in.....i think balance might mean having arguably your best players have off nights in various games against some of the best teams in the country and still winning.....kong doesn't know much about winning though

i know as much about winning as you do "uh no". and if you want to see balance, look at the 2009 NC team from 8 miles down the road. All five starters in double figures. Offense didn't revolve around the perimeter. We were efficient from the outside and the inside. We were great on the break. Heck, that team was really good. Do you remember how good? I think that senior class won 4 straight in Cameron. While we did have a bad year last year and Duke had an incredible one, lets not forget these things cycle around and the shoe will soon be on the other foot.

Jon Scheyer G 18.2 3.6 4.9
Kyle Singler F 17.7 7.0 2.4
Nolan Smith G 17.4 2.8 3.0
Brian Zoubek C 5.6 7.7 1.0
Miles Plumlee F 5.2 4.9 0.3
Lance Thomas F 4.8 4.9 0.9
Andre Dawkins G 4.4 1.1 0.3
Mason Plumlee F 3.7 3.1 0.9
Olek Czyz F 2.5 2.0 0.8
Ryan Kelly F 1.2 1.1 0.4
Jordan Davidson G 0.4 0.2 0.1
Steve Johnson F 0.4 0.2 0.0
Casey Peters G 0.0 0.1 0.0

50 Tyler Hansbrough... 20.7
05 Lawson, Ty......... 16.6
22 Wayne Ellington.... 15.8
14 Danny Green........ 13.1
21 Deon Thompson...... 10.6
32 Ed Davis........... 6.7
13 Will Graves........ 4.0
44 Tyler Zeller...... 3.1
04 Frasor, Bobby...... 2.6
11 Larry Drew II...... 1.4
01 Ginyard, Marcus.... 1.3
15 J.B. Tanner........ 1.1
35 Patrick Moody...... 22 1.0
40 Mike Copeland...... 0.8
24 Justin Watts....... 0.7
30 Jack Wooten........ 0.5
02 Campbell, Marc..... 0.2

[Duvall]

Well, to his credit, UNC was actually really balanced last year. Everyone on the roster was mediocre.

That's not really fair. Shouldn't we acknowledge that the players on that team were all mediocre in their own unique and special way? Can you really compare the beauty and majesty of an unforced Larry Drew II turnover to an airballed jump hook from John Henson? I think not.

[Big Pappa]

Here's an article where Roy says that HB is the 2nd most driven player he has ever coached. Guess who's the first.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13791/harrison-barnes-the-new-tyler-hansbrough

[slower]

thank you for taking the time to write a novel.

Sorry, Kong, we know all those big words give you a headache. Folks, please limit your comments to Kong-sized words and syllables so his dictionary does not combust. :)

combust means "catch on fire", Kong.

[CLT Devil]

i know as much about winning as you do "uh no". and if you want to see balance, look at the 2009 NC team from 8 miles down the road. All five starters in double figures. Offense didn't revolve around the perimeter. We were efficient from the outside and the inside. We were great on the break. Heck, that team was really good. Do you remember how good? I think that senior class won 4 straight in Cameron. While we did have a bad year last year and Duke had an incredible one, lets not forget these things cycle around and the shoe will soon be on the other foot.
Jon Scheyer G 18.2 3.6 4.9
Kyle Singler F 17.7 7.0 2.4
Nolan Smith G 17.4 2.8 3.0
Brian Zoubek C 5.6 7.7 1.0
Miles Plumlee F 5.2 4.9 0.3
Lance Thomas F 4.8 4.9 0.9
Andre Dawkins G 4.4 1.1 0.3
Mason Plumlee F 3.7 3.1 0.9
Olek Czyz F 2.5 2.0 0.8
Ryan Kelly F 1.2 1.1 0.4
Jordan Davidson G 0.4 0.2 0.1
Steve Johnson F 0.4 0.2 0.0
Casey Peters G 0.0 0.1 0.0

50 Tyler Hansbrough... 20.7
05 Lawson, Ty......... 16.6
22 Wayne Ellington.... 15.8
14 Danny Green........ 13.1
21 Deon Thompson...... 10.6
32 Ed Davis........... 6.7
13 Will Graves........ 4.0
44 Tyler Zeller...... 3.1
04 Frasor, Bobby...... 2.6
11 Larry Drew II...... 1.4
01 Ginyard, Marcus.... 1.3
15 J.B. Tanner........ 1.1
35 Patrick Moody...... 22 1.0
40 Mike Copeland...... 0.8
24 Justin Watts....... 0.7
30 Jack Wooten........ 0.5
02 Campbell, Marc..... 0.2

If you have any sense of history you would know that Duke is set for another few years of dominance of the 'Holes. One year, a trend does not make. Think about Duke dominance from '99 until about 2005. You guys have had a nice little run since that until this past year. I know anything can change and you never know who will beat who, like when Duke beat UNC in Cameron in 1998 after losing by a gizillion points in the Nose Dome earlier in the year.

In a way, Kong, you remind me of Billy Packer. I hated him calling our games because Duke would be up by 20 points in the second half and all he would do is point out all of the things the team was doing wrong. From the announcing alone you would think that we were losing, much in the same way you claim that our team last year was not balanced enough, yet the chips fell our way anyway....uh, okay. If you cared to pay attention you would note that Z and Lance pulled down a ton of offensive rebounds and unless they had a wide open putback they immediately turned to kick it back out to one of our lethal shooters.

I do not consider this being unbalanced, more playing to your strengths and having a very efficient way of running an offense. I infer that you believe the 'Holes team you posted stats on was far superior because they were more 'balanced?' You really can't argue with a National Champion. You either win it or you don't. If you do, then you must have done things the right way, no?

We just happened to have three of the best players in the country last year. Why not let them get all the touches and points? We are Champions, we won, Carolina (and everyone else) didn't. It seems silly to point out flaws, in stats nonetheless, in a team that won it all.

As far as the 'shoe being back on the other foot' - what is it you see that makes you think UNC will be winning against Duke in the near future? I've watched BBall since I was a kid and know that 'Holes fans always hold their team in high regard, until they start to lose that is, but every offseason brings a new ray of hope. Like a Moth to the flame, 'Holes always come out talking big and just don't seem to know when to say something like "we might be okay this year, but we have a lot of work to do...or...'if things go well we could be back in the hunt." Instead I hear more "Zeller will be the best big in the ACC, Henson will blossom after a great summer, Graves will lose some weight and take his game seriously, Barnes and Bullock and Marshall are awesome and I can't wait to start another 4 year win streak at Cameron.."

They should rip up the Dean Dome court and put down cardboard because the 'Holes are always so good on paper...

Sorry Kong, I just haven't seen anything to support what you've been saying about Zeller or UNC next year. Remember how bad they were last year? I do. I'm not saying there is no way they can turn it around, especially after all of the talent that left the league last year, but tempering expectations could be good for one's mental health.

Under promise, over deliver...words to live by.

[slower]

If you have any sense of history you would know that Duke is set for another few years of dominance of the 'Holes. One year, a trend does not make. Think about Duke dominance from '99 until about 2005. You guys have had a nice little run since that until this past year. I know anything can change and you never know who will beat who, like when Duke beat UNC in Cameron in 1998 after losing by a gizillion points in the Nose Dome earlier in the year.

In a way, Kong, you remind me of Billy Packer. I hated him calling our games because Duke would be up by 20 points in the second half and all he would do is point out all of the things the team was doing wrong. From the announcing alone you would think that we were losing, much in the same way you claim that our team last year was not balanced enough, yet the chips fell our way anyway....uh, okay. If you cared to pay attention you would note that Z and Lance pulled down a ton of offensive rebounds and unless they had a wide open putback they immediately turned to kick it back out to one of our lethal shooters.

I do not consider this being unbalanced, more playing to your strengths and having a very efficient way of running an offense. I infer that you believe the 'Holes team you posted stats on was far superior because they were more 'balanced?' You really can't argue with a National Champion. You either win it or you don't. If you do, then you must have done things the right way, no?

We just happened to have three of the best players in the country last year. Why not let them get all the touches and points? We are Champions, we won, Carolina (and everyone else) didn't. It seems silly to point out flaws, in stats nonetheless, in a team that won it all.

As far as the 'shoe being back on the other foot' - what is it you see that makes you think UNC will be winning against Duke in the near future? I've watched BBall since I was a kid and know that 'Holes fans always hold their team in high regard, until they start to lose that is, but every offseason brings a new ray of hope. Like a Moth to the flame, 'Holes always come out talking big and just don't seem to know when to say something like "we might be okay this year, but we have a lot of work to do...or...'if things go well we could be back in the hunt." Instead I hear more "Zeller will be the best big in the ACC, Henson will blossom after a great summer, Graves will lose some weight and take his game seriously, Barnes and Bullock and Marshall are awesome and I can't wait to start another 4 year win streak at Cameron.."

They should rip up the Dean Dome court and put down cardboard because the 'Holes are always so good on paper...

Sorry Kong, I just haven't seen anything to support what you've been saying about Zeller or UNC next year. Remember how bad they were last year? I do. I'm not saying there is no way they can turn it around, especially after all of the talent that left the league last year, but tempering expectations could be good for one's mental health.

Under promise, over deliver...words to live by.

Kong doesn't like to read novels!

[BlueThru&Thru]

Here's an article where Roy says that HB is the 2nd most driven player he has ever coached. Guess who's the first.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13791/harrison-barnes-the-new-tyler-hansbrough


Could it be the ACC record holding and envy of all TH? :cool:

[BlueThru&Thru]

Uh no - Is that Pratt as in Brooklyn? Love that place even though its draining me.

[oldnavy]

thank you for taking the time to write a novel.

first, i believe if you read more posts than simply mine, you will see that Duke fans on this board are questioning him as well.

I simply said that it is possible that Zeller improves this year. I also think that having Hans, Thompson, and Davis in front of you may open up a look for you, but I also think that he was a 5th option when on the floor. There is no doubt he has a lot to prove, but completely dismissing him isn't fair and that is what Navy is doing.

If you want to have two players average what one player does, fine by me. I think Zeller will be our 2nd or 3rd leading scorer this season. Your bigs may not be your 4th or 5th leading scorer. This will not make them any better or worse than Z, but it will make them under-utilized. But, you have so many other weapons- and if you are on every night, you will not need much balance. Look at last year, there was zero balance for Duke, but the chips fell your way.

I am sorry you spent so much time dissecting my post and really missed the point. I have no problem with a Duke fan being a Duke fan. Hate UNC all you want. But, when someone goes on and on and debates the same thing with his own kind and doesn't appear to want to open his mind to something, not agree with it but just see a different point of view, then I see that he has been blinded by his bias.

Do you even read the posts?? I said he was an average big in the ACC and has been overrated based on what he has done thus far. How on earth do you get that I am totally dismissing him from that?? Just for future reference, if I were to totally dismiss a UNC player I would say "they should not be allowed to play in the ACC and they are a total waste of a scholorship" or something similar. I hope you can see the difference between the two. Just because someone doesn't fawn over a player in the baby blue does not mean that they are dismissing them or being unfair.

[kong123]

"Zeller will be the best big in the ACC, Henson will blossom after a great summer, Graves will lose some weight and take his game seriously, Barnes and Bullock and Marshall are awesome and I can't wait to start another 4 year win streak at Cameron.."


Never said that Zeller will be the best big in the ACC, never mentioned Henson or Graves. Perhaps you are just trying to lump me in with a bunch of other heel fans, but you have missed the mark there. I agree, Duke should be ranked in the top 2 next season and they should have a great shot at winning the NC. I think they will be favored each time they play UNC. I think UNC will be better than last year and I am optimistic that they can actually be really good. I am a fan of UNC so I will always be hopeful that UNC will beat Duke. I was here last summer when half of this board was ready to jump ship, so spare me the part about being fair weather fans. After HB picked UNC this place was toxic. I loved it. Look how quickly things changed. Now you are kicking us like we are dogs. We have won two NC's lately, we are not that bad. We are just not as good as you were last year. So I understand all the gloating, smoke'em if you got'em. But to say that Duke will dominate over the next 5 to 10 years, what makes you say that? I certainly do not think either team will dominate the other, thats what makes a great rivalry. So paint me any way you want to. Its easy when you have enough dark blue paint brushes on the canvas, but what I say isn't completely biased. If it was, I would be banned, again!

[Big Pappa]

Never said that Zeller will be the best big in the ACC, never mentioned Henson or Graves. Perhaps you are just trying to lump me in with a bunch of other heel fans, but you have missed the mark there. I agree, Duke should be ranked in the top 2 next season and they should have a great shot at winning the NC. I think they will be favored each time they play UNC. I think UNC will be better than last year and I am optimistic that they can actually be really good. I am a fan of UNC so I will always be hopeful that UNC will beat Duke. I was here last summer when half of this board was ready to jump ship, so spare me the part about being fair weather fans. After HB picked UNC this place was toxic. I loved it. Look how quickly things changed. Now you are kicking us like we are dogs. We have won two NC's lately, we are not that bad. We are just not as good as you were last year. So I understand all the gloating, smoke'em if you got'em. But to say that Duke will dominate over the next 5 to 10 years, what makes you say that? I certainly do not think either team will dominate the other, thats what makes a great rivalry. So paint me any way you want to. Its easy when you have enough dark blue paint brushes on the canvas, but what I say isn't completely biased. If it was, I would be banned, again!

Good points. In Kong's defense, I have a few UNC fan "friends" who still can't admit that we were good last year. We "got lucky" when we beat them by 30. Kong brings a less biased opinion in his posts and it's refreshing, for me at least, to hear the other side of things. This isn't a forum for us to just tell each other how great we are. It is for intelligent conversation and debate about all things Duke Basketball and Kong brings a lot to the table. I've read his posts, they are more straight-laced and less biased than many Duke posters on this board.

He also rarely instigates things with members on this board. He mostly responds to people belittling him because of his shade of blue. Some do it in jest and that's perfectly ok, but it is easy to see posters who are just trying to get under his skin by making imbecile remarks. Address what he says in his posts without just being belligerent because he is a carolina fan.

Keep it up Kong.

[kong123]

Good points. In Kong's defense, I have a few UNC fan "friends" who still can't admit that we were good last year. We "got lucky" when we beat them by 30. Kong brings a less biased opinion in his posts and it's refreshing, for me at least, to hear the other side of things. This isn't a forum for us to just tell each other how great we are. It is for intelligent conversation and debate about all things Duke Basketball and Kong brings a lot to the table. I've read his posts, they are more straight-laced and less biased than many Duke posters on this board.

He also rarely instigates things with members on this board. He mostly responds to people belittling him because of his shade of blue. Some do it in jest and that's perfectly ok, but it is easy to see posters who are just trying to get under his skin by making imbecile remarks. Address what he says in his posts without just being belligerent because he is a carolina fan.

Keep it up Kong.


thanks big guy, I think you are one of the better posters on the board. i have no problem with bias, but when the guys are too dense to see it and then attack me for my own bias, then I get feisty.

[CLT Devil]

thanks big guy, I think you are one of the better posters on the board. i have no problem with bias, but when the guys are too dense to see it and then attack me for my own bias, then I get feisty.

Kong, I have a ton of Carolina friends and most are along your lines, which is a compliment. I do appreciate having you around and meant nothing but just some good-natured ribbing. Listen, I know how fast things turn around in college BBall...your star recruit goes straight to the NBA (not anymore, but Shaun Livingston still hurts), a key injury, a missed recruit and the whole landscape changes. Anyone would be foolish to predict anything beyond a year or two out, and that's as far as I meant to go.

I know last year was tough on you guys, as were the years before being a Duke fan and watching Hans and Lawson win everything there was to win (except the ACC Tourney, but that is just a cocktail party) and us having our own struggles in the Big Dance.

I did do a tad of generalizing in my 'novel' response, but I know how most 'Holes fans operate and how to get under their skin. I do appreciate your being here and taking what some dish out. I for one doubt a Duke poster could go on a UNC board and be treated as civil as you are treated here...but that is just a supposition so I will save that topic for later.

Honestly, Kong it is fans like you and for the most part fans like the ones here on DBR that make the rivalry so much fun. Largely because you base your thoughts on facts, experiences, observations, etc. I mean no harm, and know that you are not one to be easily upset or else you likely would not be here.

Anyway, that's about as much love as any 'Hole fan is going to get from me. I hope you guys implode next year like you did last, one big dumpster fire for me to watch all season...but I don't see that happening just yet. There are still too many questions on your team for me to feel anything but cautious optimism. And as for Duke, I really like our chances but there is a reason it is so hard to repeat as champions. I think mainly Carolina fans are defensive and Duke fans tend to gloat these days because, yes, Duke was on the ropes about a year ago and I for one was scared of what Roy was capable of. Every Carolina fan I knew constantly reminded me of how our program wa on the way down and theirs was just beginning a whole new era of dominance. Duke wins an unlikely title, Carolina stumbles...badly, and just like that the tables are turned. Thats why we play the games.

[OldPhiKap]

Kong's cool by me.

One thing I respect about Carolina is that, when you strip out the homers and the bandwagoneers, there are some really bright fans who are true students of the game. Fair fans of both UNC and Duke would probably make the same "wheat from the chaff" observation about us. I'm long past the point of knee-jerk hatred of those who root for the wrong shade of blue.

Duke and Carolina have more similarities than the fans would be comfortable admitting. Great programs, excellent schools, top flight coaches, cream of the crop players. All 8 mile apart, in the same conference. This is what it's all about.

Having said all that -- hope we hit 'em while we can. Ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows . . . .

God needs the Devil. The Beatles needed The Rolling Stones. Even Diane Sawyer needed Katie Couric. Kong, will you be my Katie Couric?

-- OPK

[Indoor66]

Kong's cool by me.

One thing I respect about Carolina is that, when you strip out the homers and the bandwagoneers, there are some really bright fans who are true students of the game. Fair fans of both UNC and Duke would probably make the same "wheat from the chaff" observation about us. I'm long past the point of knee-jerk hatred of those who root for the wrong shade of blue.

Duke and Carolina have more similarities than the fans would be comfortable admitting. Great programs, excellent schools, top flight coaches, cream of the crop players. All 8 mile apart, in the same conference. This is what it's all about.

Having said all that -- hope we hit 'em while we can. Ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows . . . .

God needs the Devil. The Beatles needed The Rolling Stones. Even Diane Sawyer needed Katie Couric. Kong, will you be my Katie Couric?

-- OPK

Yeah, both of them. :cool:

[sandinmyshoes]

Kong

Duke and Carolina have more similarities than the fans would be comfortable admitting. Great programs, excellent schools, top flight coaches, cream of the crop players. All 8 mile apart, in the same conference. This is what it's all about.


-- OPK

We also both have spoiled and often unrealistic fans. I've come to realize that it seems they are worse to Duke fans who live in North Carolina because there are just so, so many UNC fans around us. But sometimes I'll hear or read Duke fans spouting nonsense that just makes me cringe and realize the arrogance and bias is not the sole province of either side.

[moonpie23]

kong is kewl by me as well........not many fans on IC that are anywhere NEAR his state of reality...



"there once was a scorpion that needed a ride across the river..........."
http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[uh_no]

Uh no - Is that Pratt as in Brooklyn? Love that place even though its draining me.

no

its pratt as in the engineering school at duke......

[Cockabeau]

I see kong is still living in the past. You unc guys don't seem to get it. Roy got incredibly lucky to not only get Lawson/Ellinton/Hans and Felton/May/Mcants in the first place but to get those two classes to stay three years....

[Newton_14]

I will give Kong the former imposter Duke fan one prop: Unlike Wheat\\, Kong actually has showed up since April to take his medicine. We sure took our medicine from Wheat often enough when things were going his way. So where is Wheat\\? Do we need to put out a Missing Persons Report?? Or will he show up in Football season claiming he has been out in the abyss on a fishing trip with no internet connection, but suddenly wants to talk some football??;)

[BattierBattalion]

I see kong is still living in the past. You unc guys don't seem to get it. Roy got incredibly lucky to not only get Lawson/Ellinton/Hans and Felton/May/Mcants in the first place but to get those two classes to stay three years....

It goes both ways though. We were lucky to have Singler come back for all four years. He could have easily been a lottery pick after his freshman year. We were lucky to have Shelden come back in 2006 (yes, I know we didn't win). We were lucky to have Duhon for four years. Like Singler, Duhon would have been in the lottery after his freshman year. Jay Williams would have been the 1st pick in 2001. I could go on and on...

[kong123]

I see kong is still living in the past. You unc guys don't seem to get it. Roy got incredibly lucky to not only get Lawson/Ellinton/Hans and Felton/May/Mcants in the first place but to get those two classes to stay three years....

you are another completely biased fan that dislikes me with all of your heart. someone just pointed out how lucky you are to have KS and NS coming back next year and you will completely disregard it and continue waging your hate war on me.

[77devil]

Kong, will you be my Katie Couric?

-- OPK

That's just creepy.

[BD80]

Here's an article where Roy says that HB is the 2nd most driven player he has ever coached. Guess who's the first.


Well, Hansbrough would certainly be the most TRAVELED player anyone has ever coached.

[oldnavy]

Had dinner with an old Navy buddy of mine last night who is the biggest tarheel fan I know. He is also one of the smartest fans I know, he holds a law degree and a degree from seminary. Any way the talk of course turned to basketball. First he gave Duke props for winning all the games we had to play. Of course he insinuated that we caught multiple breaks because after all we were playing BUTLER for the championship. He meant it in a condescending way toward BUTLER as if they should not even be in the NCAA tournament because they are not a blue blood basketball program. Never mind the fact that they were an outstanding team, they were "looking down his nose" Butler for heavens sake. My counter was of course, you play the teams that make the tournament, and I meant the NCAA tournament, which got a good laugh. My point is, that with UNC fans no matter how smart or educated, when they hate Duke there will always be an asterisk beside any accomplishment we have. We got lucky, we had an easy road, Haywood should have driven the ball down the lane instead of taking that fade away over Zoub near the end" the list is endless.

But what was even more interesting was that he insinuated that Duke will have a problem next year with having too many good guards. That there will not be enough balls to go around. That Nolan will be wanting to showcase his skills which will conflict with KI wanting to show case his skills. He thinks that there will be major chemistry problems and such. When I pointed out that K seems to be able to handle the Dream Team II fairly well and get them to play together, he seemed to back off a little. I also reminded him that the 2009 team at UNC had 5 players average double figure scoring, and didn't he think that if Roy could pull something like that off, that K could figure a way to make 3 or 4 guys happy to share the ball?? The other interesting thing was looking at the Duke/UNC match up. Problem was he could not tell me who was going to be playing for UNC, yet he insisted that they were not going to be over matched. I asked him about DrewII and McDonald. I asked him which two guards on Duke's team would they have the advantage over? No answer. I asked about a potential Singler/Barnes matchup who would have the advantage. He said he thought Barnes may. I asked about wing players, and Graves, he thinks Graves is a head case and that Bullock will be the stud on the perimeter. I pointed out to him that Bullock has never faced anything like ACC defense, yet he still thinks he will drop 20 ppg. The icing on the cake was when I asked him about his teams chemistry. Would UNC allow Barnes to lead them, or will DrewII or Graves feel that as upper class men they should. Would Roy be as inept at handling this team as he was with last years? No answers. BUT he basically thinks Duke will struggle because we have such talented guards. I tell you it is a weird mindset when you start to dig into a UNC fanatics' psyche.
Loved the dinner and love the dude. I am glad he is back in NC so we can have these conversations on a regular basis once again. I sure cannot argue with my wife like this, I get banished very quickly!!
oh and when we talked about Zeller, he like many here thought he was going to be great. I asked based on what?? He said he had been hurt the whole time at UNC, and I pointed out that he played 27 games last year. He couldn't/didn't believe it.... I told him to go to tarheelblue.cstv.com and look it up under 2009-2010 stats.

BTW I like Kong as well, we have had offline discussions and he is cool, sort of like my UNC friend above, fun to argue with, but outside of BB we probably agree on much more things than we disagree on.

[77devil]

But what was even more interesting was that he insinuated that Duke will have a problem next year with having too many good guards. That there will not be enough balls to go around. That Nolan will be wanting to showcase his skills which will conflict with KI wanting to show case his skills. He thinks that there will be major chemistry problems and such.

Your friend is overstating it(no surprise from a baby blue), but I don't think ego issues are out the realm of possibility. It's not as though Duke hasn't had some cohesion problems before. I agree, though, that Coach K is a good as there is for managing team chemistry, and having two seniors who've been to and won the big dance gives them major credibility in leading this group and setting the tone.

I'm not worried about it, but it remains to be seen how well Seth, Kyrie, and Andre adjust to their roles. More likely than not, it's just wishful thinking by our "friends" down 15-501.

[oldnavy]

Your friend is overstating it(no surprise from a baby blue), but I don't think ego issues are out the realm of possibility. It's not as though Duke hasn't had some cohesion problems before. I agree, though, that Coach K is a good as there is for managing team chemistry, and having two seniors who've been to and won the big dance gives them major credibility in leading this group and setting the tone.

I'm not worried about it, but it remains to be seen how well Seth, Kyrie, and Andre adjust to their roles. More likely than not, it's just wishful thinking by our "friends" down 15-501.
I totally agree. Grasping for straws. I see it unfolding this way. KI will be engine that gets the ball down the court and to the right folks. Nolan will get his points, because well he is damn good. Kyle will get his for the same reason. I believe Seth Curry will be a force as well. Andre the same. KI will score when the opportunity is there. He will have multiple chances on run outs to either score of dish. He will have mulitple opportunities to break a defenders ankles and get to the rim. I really do not see this as being an issue at all. Now, flip this, and look at UNC. Who was the kid that made a huge production out of his recruitment decesion? Who had a press conference to SKYPE his decision? Who do you think is going to want to be the main focus of the offense for UNC to showcase his draft potential? Who wants to be the next MJ? - HB. How will this sit with Will Graves? Zeller? DrewII? Bullock (who seems to have a very high opinion of himself as well). McDonald? Are they all going to roll over and just play support roles? And be happy winning 20 games next year and going out in the second or third round? Maybe, or are they going to get upset that the boy wonder is getting all the press and is not including his teammates enough? THIS IS ALL JUST SPECULATION, but I feel it is a real possibility. HB may end up being the best teamate of all time and UNC does wonders next year... who knows??

I know that I am biased but I believe for good reason. K has a much, much better track record for handling multiple super stars and getting them to focus on the team than Roy. SO, if I were a UNC fan, instead of looking at Duke and thinking or hoping they will struggle, I would be a little more worried about my boys and the dynamics they are going to deal with.

[Bob Green]

Now, flip this, and look at UNC. Who was the kid that made a huge production out of his recruitment decesion? Who had a press conference to SKYPE his decision? Who do you think is going to want to be the main focus of the offense for UNC to showcase his draft potential? Who wants to be the next MJ? - HB.

At the high school level, Harrison Barnes did not have a problem involving his teammates and sharing the ball. His team went undefeated for two straight years winning back-to-back state titles.

UNC needs a lot of things to line up correctly in order to recover from the 2009-10 disaster, however, I am of the opinion that Harrison Barnes being a ball hog isn't going to be an issue. You can be sure the man desires to win big time and he will play team ball. The two main issues at Carolina will be keeping their "thin" front court healthy and point guard play.

[jimsumner]

RE: sharing the ball.

Duke's first three NCAA title teams all had five double figure scorers. Somehow, Krzyzewski figured out ways for Dawkins, Alarie, Amaker and Henderson to share the ball, ways for Laettner, Hurley, McAffrey and the Hills to share the ball, ways for Battier, Williams, Duhon, Dunleavy, and Boozer to share the ball, ways for Duhon, Ewing, Redick and Deng to share the ball.

Yes, it's possible Duke will have chemistry issues next season. But, to borrow one of David Cutcliffe's favorite phrases, this isn't Krzyzewski's first rodeo.

[OldPhiKap]

RE: sharing the ball.

Somehow, Krzyzewski figured out ways for Dawkins, Alarie, Amaker and Henderson to share the ball, ways for Laettner, Hurley, McAffrey and the Hills to share the ball, ways for Battier, Williams, Duhon, Dunleavy, and Boozer to share the ball, ways for Duhon, Ewing, Redick and Deng to share the ball.

Probably not a coincidence that those teams each had (IMO) the best point/initiating guards to play for K.

Kyrie Irving, come on down . . . .

[ACCBBallFan]

oh and when we talked about Zeller, he like many here thought he was going to be great. I asked based on what?? He said he had been hurt the whole time at UNC, and I pointed out that he played 27 games last year. He couldn't/didn't believe it.... I told him to go to tarheelblue.cstv.com and look it up under 2009-2010 stats.. What makes Tyler Zeller a junior experience wise with an asterisk is his freshman year when he only played a few games in OOC before he hurt his wrsit and then played very tentatively when he came back probably too early as insurance for the tittle run.

Henson teases him but it is true that Henson has played nearly as many games as Zeller has 42 games to 37 but 587 minutes to 586, and less total minutes than Dexter Strickland's 623 in 36 games.

[-jk]

For all the aspersions cast upon Zeller, I offer, by example, Zoubs. Or as the investment folks say, past performance does not guarantee future results.

-jk

[uh_no]

For all the aspersions cast upon Zeller, I offer, by example, Zoubs. Or as the investment folks say, past performance does not guarantee future results.

-jk

part of zoubs rebirth, in my opinion at least, was that he stopped doing what he thought the world thought he should do (trying to make moves, score a lot, bully people) and started doing what he was good at (rebounding, being taller than everyone else and drawing the entire other team, and putting the ball back in when the opportunity presented itself) i recall K saying at one of the crazie sessions that their goal was just to get zoubs to do what he was good at, and that he got good when he realized what he was capable of and stopped trying to exceed his physical limitations, and stuck to what he could do (obviously the injury situation affected this)

my question is, will zeller have this sort of revelation that he can't do everything and will do what he is good at? will roy push him to do what he is good at in the same way that K did at duke?

zeller can be successful, But he needs to get healthy first of all, and second realize what he can and can't do, and focus at being the best at what he can do, and it takes a certain system to allow a player to do that (one that obviously duke has, and something UNC might have been lacking last year)

[MarkD83]

my question is, will zeller have this sort of revelation that he can't do everything and will do what he is good at? will roy push him to do what he is good at in the same way that K did at duke?


Zeller is good at hitting the 12-15 foot jump shot, but is that really what UNC needs next year. He does not appear to be someone who wants to bang down low like Hansbrough.

What made Zoubs so good and consequently Duke so good in 2010 was rebounding. I just don't see who will bang down low and get rebounds for UNC. Perhaps Knox?

[oldnavy]

At the high school level, Harrison Barnes did not have a problem involving his teammates and sharing the ball. His team went undefeated for two straight years winning back-to-back state titles.

UNC needs a lot of things to line up correctly in order to recover from the 2009-10 disaster, however, I am of the opinion that Harrison Barnes being a ball hog isn't going to be an issue. You can be sure the man desires to win big time and he will play team ball. The two main issues at Carolina will be keeping their "thin" front court healthy and point guard play.

Bob, don't misunderstand me. I do not think or really have reason to think that Barnes will be a ball hog. My point was to counter my friends argument that Duke will have ball distribution problems due to the number of good guards we have. As good as our guards are, I do not believe one of them has had the bravado coming in that HB has, so I used him as an example of how it may actually be a bigger issue for them than us.

He like many UNC posters defended Roy by saying it was not Roy's fault that his team played poorly last year. Man they really do drink the kool aid over there don't they? It wasn't Roy's fault that they made so many turnovers. They really didn't need to change the style of offense, because it had always worked for Roy, players bad attitudes were just simply out of Roy's control, and he had not other option but to play them despite the lack of effort and passion. Last year really had nothing to do with Roy, it was like he was not even there. I would not even be surprised to see them start a movement to petition the NCAA to expunge the losses off of Roy's record.

[kong123]

Bob, don't misunderstand me. I do not think or really have reason to think that Barnes will be a ball hog. My point was to counter my friends argument that Duke will have ball distribution problems due to the number of good guards we have. As good as our guards are, I do not believe one of them has had the bravado coming in that HB has, so I used him as an example of how it may actually be a bigger issue for them than us.

He like many UNC posters defended Roy by saying it was not Roy's fault that his team played poorly last year. Man they really do drink the kool aid over there don't they? It wasn't Roy's fault that they made so many turnovers. They really didn't need to change the style of offense, because it had always worked for Roy, players bad attitudes were just simply out of Roy's control, and he had not other option but to play them despite the lack of effort and passion. Last year really had nothing to do with Roy, it was like he was not even there. I would not even be surprised to see them start a movement to petition the NCAA to expunge the losses off of Roy's record.

Hey now, Roy had shoulder surgery, so maybe you are on to something!

Get past it man. Everyone knows it was a group effort last year to be as horrible as they were. It is as simple as that. A lot of blame sits squarely on the shoulders of Roy. How many more times are you going to write the EXACT SAME THING? I can really detect the hostility you have for UNC. I am sure it is tough to live in the same house with UNC fans, but is it that bad? Its truly over the top and sounds like a skipping record. Perhaps the tone you are writing this in (in your head) isn't the tone its comes across in (bitter and angry), but give it a rest. Your recent posts borderline on what is written over on the IC. I know you are a nice guy and I know you simply love Duke basketball, but I find your rants to be wildly over the top. If you feel that way, fine, but no need to write the same thing in the same thread- every morning at 6:40.

[-jk]

Let's keep the discussion on the post, not the poster.

-jk

[moonpie23]

Hey now, Roy had shoulder surgery, so maybe you are on to something!



actually, kong.....i DO think the surgery and subsequent rehab (pain meds and such) may have really affected roy's demeanor and actions.....

it's easy to see him with his shoulder in that sling thing and say it wasn't that big of a deal.....but pain management and job pressure can be a tough place to be...

didn't the throwing of the fan out of the deandome incident happen right at the end of all that?

http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[wilko]

How many more times are you going to write the EXACT SAME THING? I can really detect the hostility you have for UNC. .

Oh I dont know... Its kinda like Carlins take on profanity - "If you think 4 letter words have lost their shock value, you just arent using enuff of them"

In that regard, you can never really bash UNC too much around here, at least for my tastes. Consider the audience. Natural selection has given us a built in immunity to that kind of thing. The best you can probably hope for is to become inured to it.

One of my oldest and Dearest friends is a rabid UNC fan. Other than that hes pure T family... He was at Northern HS in Durham at the same time Debbie K. was a student there. One of my favorite digs at him is " So she turned you down for a date, and you decided to hate on Duke for it? Its not like other women havent shot you down before... I bet some of them were even UNC fans... why not hate on them?"

To be fair, he says they didnt know each other and that didnt happen, but that doesnt stop me from gassing him about it. What else are friends for?

I really want to CONVERT a UNC fan. have them change religions as it were...

Wheres that stack of applications?? If UNC is anywhwere near what they were last year (hope upon hope for an encore) we may need to print a 2nd batch of applications.

And can we change the thread name? something along the lines of Can UNC improve, Has Roy Lost it?, Verti-made-his-coaching-go something to denote a negative connotation about UNC... it bothers me somewhat the most popular thread here is about UNC's prospects in a positive light.

(Irony is not lost on me that I am adding to it ... dont tell my UNC friend)

[silverbax]

Make no mistake, UNC will be back faster than anyone realizes. The truth is that both UNC and Duke just knock the heck out the rest of the country, and they will continue to do so for some time.

[-jk]

Please keep the focus on the topic at hand - not on the members.

Thanks,

-jk

[uh_no]

Make no mistake, UNC will be back faster than anyone realizes. The truth is that both UNC and Duke just knock the heck out the rest of the country, and they will continue to do so for some time.

just because a team has a history does not imply that they will be good in the coming year....one could say ucla 'knocks the heck out of the rest of the country' with their success in the tournament this decade (3 straight final fours) plus they have more titles than anyone......they sucked last year......

UNC had a downspell of like 10 years from 1994 to 2004......could it happen again? maybe.....maybe not......but using the claim that 'unc and duke knock the heck out of the rest of the country' as evidence that UNC will most certainly be a top notch team next year is just silly......especially after how bad they were last year....now including the loss of the wear twins.....

will they be better? probably.....but to say they'll be great because they're UNC is silly.....UK fans fell into that trap after their national title in what 03? and they were so disillusioned to think that they would beat your very own tarheels in the fall of 2008.....they thought they would be a great team because they were kentucky and always knock the socks off people.....well that didn't work out too well for them

you want to say UNC will be good because harrison barnes will have a carmelo anthony like effect on the team, or that zeller will avoid injury and be the next hansbrough....okay, I can accept that.....but 'being UNC' is not evidence...

[moonpie23]

that's the "entitlement" that fuels the overwhelming bravado and arrogance of the typical tarhole fan.....


i'll never forget that t-shirt i saw. it had a photo of the National Title trophy, and a UNC logo reaching out to it and the words..... "GIVE IT TO US ! IT'S OURS....."




http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[Duvall]

UNC had a downspell of like 10 years from 1994 to 2004......could it happen again?

Wait, what? UNC went to four Final Four and won three ACC championships during that "downspell." What are you talking about?

[Indoor66]

that's the "entitlement" that fuels the overwhelming bravado and arrogance of the typical tarhole fan.....


i'll never forget that t-shirt i saw. it had a photo of the National Title trophy, and a UNC logo reaching out to it and the words..... "GIVE IT TO US ! IT'S OURS....."

Kind'a like "Order has been restored"?

[uh_no]

Wait, what? UNC went to four Final Four and won three ACC championships during that "downspell." What are you talking about?

i'm talking about saying too much about things I know too little about is what I'm talking about :P

my overall point stands though......that UNC won't be good next year simply because they have tradition.....having tradition might mean that they will regain form in the future, but it doesn't say anything about next year specifically

[BoozerWasFouled]

What makes Tyler Zeller a junior experience wise with an asterisk is his freshman year when he only played a few games in OOC before he hurt his wrsit and then played very tentatively when he came back probably too early as insurance for the tittle run.

Henson teases him but it is true that Henson has played nearly as many games as Zeller has 42 games to 37 but 587 minutes to 586, and less total minutes than Dexter Strickland's 623 in 36 games.

But don't you think part of the problem is just sheer lack of pounds? Zeller is just not big enough to hold position and clear space. I see this being the big problem for Carolina next year. They basically cede control of the post.

[Big Pappa]

But don't you think part of the problem is just sheer lack of pounds? Zeller is just not big enough to hold position and clear space. I see this being the big problem for Carolina next year. They basically cede control of the post.

Are you confusing Zeller's weight with Henson's? Henson is the thin one. Zeller is listed at 7' 240lbs, more than Mason (225) and Miles (235). If Zeller can stay healthy he will be good inside. Their biggest problem inside is lack of quality depth with the transfer of the Wears.

[CDu]

Are you confusing Zeller's weight with Henson's? Henson is the thin one. Zeller is listed at 7' 240lbs, more than Mason (225) and Miles (235). If Zeller can stay healthy he will be good inside. Their biggest problem inside is lack of quality depth with the transfer of the Wears.

Right. You can question Zeller's desire to bang inside, but it's not an issue of mass. In terms of bulk, the Heels actually have two guys heavier than any of our bigs (Zeller and Knox). Henson is the only one who doesn't have the size to hold his position inside. And as you noted, depth will certainly be a question for them.

I'm also not sure why there are so many questions about Zeller's skill level. He's a very gifted big man who has had the misfortune of injuries (he's basically played one season of basketball to this point) and too much experience/talent in front of him (Hansbrough, Davis, Thompson as a freshman, Davis and Thompson as a sophomore). If he's healthy, I think he has a pretty strong year for them.

As with last year, I think the Heels have talent in the frontcourt (though a lot less depth this year). But they don't have a lot guys willing to bang inside, which hurts. And as such, the guard play can really limits the effectiveness of those talented big men.

[gumbomoop]

Are you confusing Zeller's weight with Henson's? Henson is the thin one. Zeller is listed at 7' 240lbs, more than Mason (225) and Miles (235). If Zeller can stay healthy he will be good inside. Their biggest problem inside is lack of quality depth with the transfer of the Wears.

I've posted in this thread, not to demean Zeller, but definitely to attempt to point out why the MPs and RK are likely to be more-valuable-because-more-appropriate to Duke's needs.

I'd certainly think good health is the key to Zeller's having a bigger impact. Yet Zeller doesn't seem to want to be an inside player. He seems to prefer to use his speed rather than his weight. Have I misjudged him on this?

The point made by BoozerWasFouled re UNC ceding the post still seems a relevant question, even if Zeller is finally healthy. Will Roy insist that Zeller develop a relentless inside game? Zeller is, after all, realistically UNC's only possible true center. And even if a good college team doesn't need a true center, it still needs its biggest guy to play - and to want to play - a lot down low.

[roywhite]

Basically, I look at this year's edition of the Tarheels more with curiosity than fear.

Can they get decent (or better) PG play? Is their frontcourt physical enough against good oppoents? Will their freshmen turn out to be their best players? Will team chemistry be okay? Can Ole Roy improve on his miserable coaching job from last year?

Even if they answer these questions in the affirmative, I don't see them as being as strong as the Blue Devils. But interesting to watch.

[oldnavy]

I've posted in this thread, not to demean Zeller, but definitely to attempt to point out why the MPs and RK are likely to be more-valuable-because-more-appropriate to Duke's needs.

I'd certainly think good health is the key to Zeller's having a bigger impact. Yet Zeller doesn't seem to want to be an inside player. He seems to prefer to use his speed rather than his weight. Have I misjudged him on this?

The point made by BoozerWasFouled re UNC ceding the post still seems a relevant question, even if Zeller is finally healthy. Will Roy insist that Zeller develop a relentless inside game? Zeller is, after all, realistically UNC's only possible true center. And even if a good college team doesn't need a true center, it still needs its biggest guy to play - and to want to play - a lot down low.

I may resemble the remark about quetioning Zeller's skill level. If so, that was and is not my intent. My intent was to not over inflate his skill level like I have seen some posters do. I think Zeller is an OK big man. Nothing special, but certainly not a liability either. Some folks were talking about him as if he were a dominate big that would control the middle. I just do not see that and tend to agree that he seems to like to stay higher in the post vice lower. His modest rebound stats might be a reflection of that, but could also be due to limited PT due to injury and other bigs (Thompson) who were a little better at grabbing boards. He may surprise me, but I suspect he will be a 6-7 rpg, 8-9 ppg big this year similar to last - just good enough to get his jersey hung in the rafters!!

[gumbomoop]

Basically, I look at this year's edition of the Tarheels more with curiosity than fear.

Can they get decent (or better) PG play? Is their frontcourt physical enough against good oppoents? Will their freshmen turn out to be their best players? Will team chemistry be okay? Can Ole Roy improve on his miserable coaching job from last year?

Even if they answer these questions in the affirmative, I don't see them as being as strong as the Blue Devils. But interesting to watch.

Good summary in paragraph #2.

I'm especially curious about how Roy will coach the chemistry thing. He seems to have signalled publicly last year, more than once, that he didn't quite know how to reach a bunch of that bunch. He was demonstrably frazzled. How does a coach get himself and his team out of that mentality and far away from such miserable vibes?

I recall that in the '02 semis, with his team playing as miserably as possible - down 22 - K called a timeout and told them, I think with some ingenious twist of wry humor, "What are you afraid of? You can't play any worse." Or something to that effect. What does Roy say? What does he know?

Comparing Duke and UNC for '10-'11, a whole lot of things have to go right for UNC, and several things have to go ill for Duke, for UNC to be as good as Duke.

[CDu]

I've posted in this thread, not to demean Zeller, but definitely to attempt to point out why the MPs and RK are likely to be more-valuable-because-more-appropriate to Duke's needs.

I'd certainly think good health is the key to Zeller's having a bigger impact. Yet Zeller doesn't seem to want to be an inside player. He seems to prefer to use his speed rather than his weight. Have I misjudged him on this?

You have not misjudged Zeller. I think Zeller has a better combination of size/strength and skill than our current big men. But I think he's also not perfectly suited to the half-court portion of UNC's offense. As you note, he doesn't seem to want to mix it up inside, preferring more finesse moves in the half court and excelling in transition. He'd be great alongside a more rugged low-post player. Unfortunately, UNC didn't have that last year. And in the previous year, he was injured and too far down the depth chart to pair with Hansbrough.


The point made by BoozerWasFouled re UNC ceding the post still seems a relevant question, even if Zeller is finally healthy. Will Roy insist that Zeller develop a relentless inside game? Zeller is, after all, realistically UNC's only possible true center. And even if a good college team doesn't need a true center, it still needs its biggest guy to play - and to want to play - a lot down low.

This isn't quite true. The Heels added Justin Knox, who will play center for them. He's a similar size as Miles, but not as athletic. But he's a fifth-year senior with lots of experience in the ACC. He'll offer 25 mpg as the banger down low, allowing Zeller and Henson to spend a little less time mixing it up on the blocks. Knox isn't a good player by any means, but he'll fit a role for them, which is something they sorely needed last year.

[CDu]

I may resemble the remark about quetioning Zeller's skill level. If so, that was and is not my intent. My intent was to not over inflate his skill level like I have seen some posters do. I think Zeller is an OK big man. Nothing special, but certainly not a liability either. Some folks were talking about him as if he were a dominate big that would control the middle. I just do not see that and tend to agree that he seems to like to stay higher in the post vice lower. His modest rebound stats might be a reflection of that, but could also be due to limited PT due to injury and other bigs (Thompson) who were a little better at grabbing boards. He may surprise me, but I suspect he will be a 6-7 rpg, 8-9 ppg big this year similar to last - just good enough to get his jersey hung in the rafters!!

Whereas some may overestimate Zeller, I think you underestimate him. The guy averaged 9.3 ppg and 4.6 rpg last year in 17.5 mpg. I'd expect him to average at least 8-10 more mpg this year. Yet you expect his scoring average to decrease with a 50% increase in minutes? I'd expect a 12-15 ppg, 7-8 rpg season from Zeller this year if he's healthy. Not superstar/dominant big man numbers, but very solid numbers.

[roywhite]

This isn't quite true. The Heels added Justin Knox, who will play center for them. He's a similar size as Miles, but not as athletic. But he's a fifth-year senior with lots of experience in the ACC. He'll offer 25 mpg as the banger down low, allowing Zeller and Henson to spend a little less time mixing it up on the blocks. Knox isn't a good player by any means, but he'll fit a role for them, which is something they sorely needed last year.

25 mpg for Knox? Really?

He averaged 19.8 minutes and shot 43.9% from the field for an Alabama team that finished 6-10 in the SEC last year.

[oldnavy]

For all the aspersions cast upon Zeller, I offer, by example, Zoubs. Or as the investment folks say, past performance does not guarantee future results.

-jk

True, but I would have to say (and this hurts) that Zeller's modest performance to date out shines what Zoubs had done up to his FANTASTIC senior year.

[gumbomoop]

I think Zeller has a better combination of size/strength and skill than our current big men.

I'm sticking with Mason on this, and actually Ryan, too. Maybe it's fair to say the verdict is out on all 3, and on Miles, as well.


This isn't quite true. The Heels added Justin Knox, who will play center for them. He's a similar size as Miles, but not as athletic. But he's a fifth-year senior with lots of experience in the ACC. He'll offer 25 mpg as the banger down low, allowing Zeller and Henson to spend a little less time mixing it up on the blocks. Knox isn't a good player by any means, but he'll fit a role for them, which is something they sorely needed last year.

You're right, I'm wrong. [Good to say this once a decade.] Except you meant SEC, but you're still right that Knox is probably closest on Heels to true center and low-post guy. Will he play 25 mpg? I guess maybe so, and with any injuries to Henson/Zeller, wow, problems.

[Duvall]

25 mpg for Knox? Really?

He averaged 19.8 minutes and shot 43.9% from the field for an Alabama team that finished 6-10 in the SEC last year.

Nobody said it would be 25 good minutes.

Knox isn't good. But Carolina doesn't have much choice but to give him 15-20 mpg to fill up space, because they don't have any other post players to back up Zeller and Henson, and it's hard to see UNC going with a small lineup due to the extreme ungoodness of their guards.

[CDu]

25 mpg for Knox? Really?

He averaged 19.8 minutes and shot 43.9% from the field for an Alabama team that finished 6-10 in the SEC last year.

Yup. I don't see Henson and Zeller playing 60 minutes per game combined. And I don't see Graves or Barnes playing at the 4. So that means minutes for Knox.

Now, that doesn't mean he'll give them a ton of production in those minutes. As I said, he's not good. But they're going to need his body in there.

MAYBE they can get away with 20 minutes per game from Knox and 5 minutes of Graves at the 4. But I'd say 20-25 minutes for Knox at the 5.

[gumbomoop]

Nobody said it would be 25 good minutes.

Knox isn't good. But Carolina doesn't have much choice but to give him 15-20 mpg to fill up space, because they don't have any other post players to back up Zeller and Henson, and it's hard to see UNC going with a small lineup due to the extreme ungoodness of their guards.

A wonderful word choice. Yes, indeed, this is now in fact a word, owing to several lexicographers' familiarity with UNC's play last season.

[CDu]

I'm sticking with Mason on this, and actually Ryan, too. Maybe it's fair to say the verdict is out on all 3, and on Miles, as well.

I think we'll have to stick with your second sentence here, as all four of the guys in question should receive an "Incomplete" at this point.


You're right, I'm wrong. [Good to say this once a decade.] Except you meant SEC, but you're still right that Knox is probably closest on Heels to true center and low-post guy. Will he play 25 mpg? I guess maybe so, and with any injuries to Henson/Zeller, wow, problems.

Yeah, I meant SEC, as he transferred from Alabama. Silly typo there. And 25 mpg might be on the high end, but I'd definitely think 20-25 mpg for Knox given their complete lack of depth inside.

Knox is definitely not good, but they just don't have a lot of options in terms of guys willing to bang down low.

[oldnavy]

Whereas some may overestimate Zeller, I think you underestimate him. The guy averaged 9.3 ppg and 4.6 rpg last year in 17.5 mpg. I'd expect him to average at least 8-10 more mpg this year. Yet you expect his scoring average to decrease with a 50% increase in minutes? I'd expect a 12-15 ppg, 7-8 rpg season from Zeller this year if he's healthy. Not superstar/dominant big man numbers, but very solid numbers.


First, with Roy's rotation I would not assume that he get 50% more minutes. But if he does, with the addition of Barnes, Bullock and McDonald, along with Graves who has never met a shot he didn't like, I still do not see Zeller creating more scoring opportunities for himself. He may though, we can look back next year and see who was closer to being correct.

[roywhite]

Knox is definitely not good, but they just don't have a lot of options in terms of guys willing to bang down low.

You could be right. I just get a chuckle that a last-minute transfer pickup with very modest stats may play such a key role for them.

The Heels enter the 2010-11 season with 7 McDonald's All-Americans

Zeller
Henson
Drew
Strickland
Barnes
Bullock
Marshall

Of course, that's down from 9 potentially, since the Wears bugged out. :)

Sort of calls Roy's recruiting into question, doesn't it?

[CDu]

First, with Roy's rotation I would not assume that he get 50% more minutes.

Clearly you haven't followed Roy Williams's rotation system very well. He usually has a big men or two averaging 25+ mpg:
2010: Davis (27.9mpg), Thompson (26.9mpg)
2009: Hansbrough (30.3mpg), Thompson (24.8mpg)
2008: Hansbrough (33.0mpg), Thompson (21.4mpg)
2007: Hansbrough (29.9mpg), Wright (27.4mpg)
2006: Hansbrough (30.4mpg), Terry (24.2mpg)
2005: May (26.8mpg), Williams (24.0mpg), Williams (22.2mpg)
2004: May (28.9mpg), Williams (26.9mpg)

When Williams has had only 3 able bodies, at least two of those able bodies play significant minutes. Heck, even last year, when he had 6 bigs, he still had two guys getting 27+ mpg. And this year, He doesn't have a Hansbrough, to hog 30+ mpg, so I'd see the distribution for Zeller and Henson to be more like Davis and Thompson from last year. I fully expect Zeller to get 25+ mpg next year if healthy - Williams just doesn't have alternatives, and even when he's had alternatives he's still leaned more on the starters than his reserves.


But if he does, with the addition of Barnes, Bullock and McDonald, along with Graves who has never met a shot he didn't like, I still do not see Zeller creating more scoring opportunities for himself. He may though, we can look back next year and see who was closer to being correct.

I'd suggest that if anything, having those guys will actually IMPROVE his scoring. It's not like they forcefed Zeller touches last year. And having those guys will spread the floor better to create easier chances for Zeller.

Obviously we'll just have to see. But I REALLY can't see a healthy Zeller only averaging 8-9ppg this year for them.

[BoozerWasFouled]

Are you confusing Zeller's weight with Henson's? Henson is the thin one. Zeller is listed at 7' 240lbs, more than Mason (225) and Miles (235). If Zeller can stay healthy he will be good inside. Their biggest problem inside is lack of quality depth with the transfer of the Wears.

No, I am not confusing them. I had no clue Zeller was that heavy, and I am a little surprised to hear that. In my opinion, he has always played thin. Tremendously skilled, but averse to the low block.

[gumbomoop]

I just get a chuckle that a last-minute transfer pickup with very modest stats may play such a key role for them.

Btw, several posters have stated that Knox isn't that good. I can see by his stats that he doesn't deserve a strong rep. Having checked on Alabama's '09-'10 stats, I see several bigs who got some time, scored a few points. Knox feasted on SC, but was obviously inconsistent over his last season there, both as scorer and rebounder.

Has anyone actually seen him play, and remember him? Perhaps no one will be willing to give us an eye-test report, for that would require admitting that one has watched some SEC games......

[roywhite]

I'd suggest that if anything, having those guys will actually IMPROVE his scoring. It's not like they forcefed Zeller touches last year. And having those guys will spread the floor better to create easier chances for Zeller.



Forcefeeding is reserved for Henson at the training table. :)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of their freshmen is given some responsibility for making sure Henson eats enough.

[ACCBBallFan]

Clearly you haven't followed Roy Williams's rotation system very well. He usually has a big men or two averaging 25+ mpg:
2010: Davis (27.9mpg), Thompson (26.9mpg)
2009: Hansbrough (30.3mpg), Thompson (24.8mpg)
2008: Hansbrough (33.0mpg), Thompson (21.4mpg)
2007: Hansbrough (29.9mpg), Wright (27.4mpg)
2006: Hansbrough (30.4mpg), Terry (24.2mpg)
2005: May (26.8mpg), Williams (24.0mpg), Williams (22.2mpg)
2004: May (28.9mpg), Williams (26.9mpg)

When Williams has had only 3 able bodies, at least two of those able bodies play significant minutes. Heck, even last year, when he had 6 bigs, he still had two guys getting 27+ mpg. And this year, He doesn't have a Hansbrough, to hog 30+ mpg, so I'd see the distribution for Zeller and Henson to be more like Davis and Thompson from last year. I fully expect Zeller to get 25+ mpg next year if healthy - Williams just doesn't have alternatives, and even when he's had alternatives he's still leaned more on the starters than his reserves.I think we can all agree Zeller is no Hansbrough. So pick the two next highest MPG for Zeller and Henson and they sum to 55 leaving 25 MPG for Knox and whichever non PF ends up having to play there out of necessity.

So at least maintaining his 20 MPG (19.8 last year and 20.4 the year before) in the SEC should be realistic.

[CDu]

I think we can all agree Zeller is no Hansbrough. So pick the two next highest MPG for Zeller and Henson and they sum to 55 leaving 25 MPG for Knox and whichever non PF ends up having to play there out of necessity.

So at least maintaining his 20 MPG (19.8 last year and 20.4 the year before) in the SEC should be realistic.

Agreed on Knox regarding 20-25 mpg, but we were talking about Zeller in this particular part of the thread. Oldnavy was suggesting that he doesn't anticipate Zeller getting 25+ mpg next year due to Williams's rotation strategy. I was just providing evidence to suggest that (barring injury) there's virtually no way Zeller plays less than 25mpg.

[Big Pappa]

I think we can all agree Zeller is no Hansbrough. So pick the two next highest MPG for Zeller and Henson and they sum to 55 leaving 25 MPG for Knox and whichever non PF ends up having to play there out of necessity.


That would make a bigger difference if they were both on the team. Zeller, Henson, and Knox are it inside for the heels. That's the point he was making. Zeller will easily play 25+ mpg and I wouldn't be surprised to see Knox play 20+ mpg especially against teams where Henson is overmatched inside.

[ACCBBallFan]

Agreed on Knox regarding 20-25 mpg, but we were talking about Zeller in this particular part of the thread. Oldnavy was suggesting that he doesn't anticipate Zeller getting 25+ mpg next year due to Williams's rotation strategy. I was just providing evidence to suggest that (barring injury) there's virtually no way Zeller plays less than 25mpg.Yes, almost by necessity Zeller and Henson would each get 25-30 MPG and if Roy continues to try to play as fast or faster than his ball handlers can handle, not much more than 30 from running so much.

The only thing that would prevent that is if Knox were to prove to be so much better than Henson at PF (or center with Zeller at PF) due to his weight advantage, but even then Knox could only play 25-30 for same reason and Henson would have to sub in for Zeller/Knox at 20-25 with no other viable or non viable options.

[CDu]

Yes, almost by necessity Zeller and Henson would each get 25-30 MPG and if Roy continues to try to play as fast or faster than his ball handlers can handle, not much more than 30 from running so much.

The only thing that would prevent that is if Knox were to prove to be so much better than Henson at PF (or center with Zeller at PF) due to his weight advantage, but even then Knox could only play 25-30 for same reason and Henson would have to sub in for Zeller/Knox at 20-25 with no other viable or non viable options.

Yup. Unless Graves or Barnes proves able to play the 4 for extended minutes (and I doubt that), Zeller will simply have to play at least 25 minutes per game. And even if one of those wings can play the 4, it'd likely be Knox that would see his minutes cut - not Zeller.

[OldPhiKap]

I am surprised by the focus on the frontcourt, because the biggest problem the heels had last year (IMO) was at the point. And I don't see that having changed much.

The times I saw Carolina, they would have dumb turnover after stalled possession after dumb turnover. Then give up on defense after clanking a forced shot or turning it over in the open floor. I think they have more than serviceable big men IF they can (1) initiate the offense and (2) find some passion to play defense. They should have the second, but not sure about the first.

[CDu]

I am surprised by the focus on the frontcourt, because the biggest problem the heels had last year (IMO) was at the point. And I don't see that having changed much.

The times I saw Carolina, they would have dumb turnover after stalled possession after dumb turnover. Then give up on defense after clanking a forced shot or turning it over in the open floor. I think they have more than serviceable big men IF they can (1) initiate the offense and (2) find some passion to play defense. They should have the second, but not sure about the first.

I agree that the debate over the frontcourt is probably off-target. But I'm not sure it was all on the PG position last year. I think the bigger issue was a lack of offensive firepower from the backcourt in general. I think Drew took a lot more abuse than he deserved. He's not Ty Lawson, but he was not terrible either. The problem was that they were playing Strickland, McDonald, Ginyard, and Graves on the wings, and those guys just couldn't consistently provide offense, let alone create offense.

I think that Drew will look a lot better this year if Bullock and Barnes are as good as advertised. I don't think that will be enough to make them an elite team, but it'll help a lot.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree that the debate over the frontcourt is probably off-target. But I'm not sure it was all on the PG position last year. I think the bigger issue was a lack of offensive firepower from the backcourt in general. I think Drew took a lot more abuse than he deserved. He's not Ty Lawson, but he was not terrible either. The problem was that they were playing Strickland, McDonald, Ginyard, and Graves on the wings, and those guys just couldn't consistently provide offense, let alone create offense.

I think that Drew will look a lot better this year if Bullock and Barnes are as good as advertised. I don't think that will be enough to make them an elite team, but it'll help a lot.

Agreed. Larry Drew was actually a decent distributor. He was second in the ACC in assists (6.0 assists, second only to Vasquez) and had the 5th best assist / turnover ratio of 1.8. That said, Drew couldn't find water in a lake when it came to scoring and couldn't defend a statue, but he one of the best distributors in the ACC.

[MisterRoddy]

Agreed. Larry Drew was actually a decent distributor. He was second in the ACC in assists (6.0 assists, second only to Vasquez) and had the 5th best assist / turnover ratio of 1.8. That said, Drew couldn't find water in a lake when it came to scoring and couldn't defend a statue, but he one of the best distributors in the ACC.

Not only to his teammates, but also to those diehards in the 5th row of the Dome

[Devilsfan]

They will need to score off rebounds, second chance points. Their new "basketball savior" will soon learn that if he wants to keep his "LBJ" fame with the wine and cheese troops he will have to throw up a lot of shots and hope they go in, imo.

[oldnavy]

Clearly you haven't followed Roy Williams's rotation system very well. He usually has a big men or two averaging 25+ mpg:
2010: Davis (27.9mpg), Thompson (26.9mpg)
2009: Hansbrough (30.3mpg), Thompson (24.8mpg)
2008: Hansbrough (33.0mpg), Thompson (21.4mpg)
2007: Hansbrough (29.9mpg), Wright (27.4mpg)
2006: Hansbrough (30.4mpg), Terry (24.2mpg)
2005: May (26.8mpg), Williams (24.0mpg), Williams (22.2mpg)
2004: May (28.9mpg), Williams (26.9mpg)

When Williams has had only 3 able bodies, at least two of those able bodies play significant minutes. Heck, even last year, when he had 6 bigs, he still had two guys getting 27+ mpg. And this year, He doesn't have a Hansbrough, to hog 30+ mpg, so I'd see the distribution for Zeller and Henson to be more like Davis and Thompson from last year. I fully expect Zeller to get 25+ mpg next year if healthy - Williams just doesn't have alternatives, and even when he's had alternatives he's still leaned more on the starters than his reserves.



I'd suggest that if anything, having those guys will actually IMPROVE his scoring. It's not like they forcefed Zeller touches last year. And having those guys will spread the floor better to create easier chances for Zeller.

Obviously we'll just have to see. But I REALLY can't see a healthy Zeller only averaging 8-9ppg this year for them.

I do not follow Roy's rotation very close that is true. So you probably are correct and Zeller may see 25+ mpg, but I still do not see him becoming a prolific scorer. I say 8 or 9 ppg. He just doesn't have the offensive arsenal to generate more points for himself IMO. I believe that Henson will score more, Barnes will certainly score more, Graves will score more, and maybe even Bullock will score more. I just do not see UNC having 5 guys average double figure points this year. But, hey I am just guessing that is all, I could be way off base and Zeller could lead the team in scoring. Carolina is a mystery to me coming into this season, anything is possible.

[CDu]

I do not follow Roy's rotation very close that is true. So you probably are correct and Zeller may see 25+ mpg, but I still do not see him becoming a prolific scorer. I say 8 or 9 ppg. He just doesn't have the offensive arsenal to generate more points for himself IMO. I believe that Henson will score more, Barnes will certainly score more, Graves will score more, and maybe even Bullock will score more. I just do not see UNC having 5 guys average double figure points this year. But, hey I am just guessing that is all, I could be way off base and Zeller could lead the team in scoring. Carolina is a mystery to me coming into this season, anything is possible.

I didn't say Zeller would become a prolific scorer this year. I just said he wouldn't see a decrease in scoring. I think he'll score 12-15 ppg, which is hardly prolific. I also don't think he'll lead the team in scoring (I think that will be Barnes). I'll be pretty surprised if Graves outscores Zeller, as I think Graves is the guy whose minutes will take a hit (he plays the same position as Barnes, and he isn't very good). I think Barnes and Bullock make Graves largely irrelevant next year, unless Graves can learn to play the 4 spot (and I doubt he learns that). Graves is a one-trick pony (streak shooter), and that one trick is done better by Barnes and Bullock (who also add other skills to the team).

[oldnavy]

I didn't say Zeller would become a prolific scorer this year. I just said he wouldn't see a decrease in scoring. I think he'll score 12-15 ppg, which is hardly prolific. I also don't think he'll lead the team in scoring (I think that will be Barnes). I'll be pretty surprised if Graves outscores Zeller, as I think Graves is the guy whose minutes will take a hit (he plays the same position as Barnes, and he isn't very good). I think Barnes and Bullock make Graves largely irrelevant next year, unless Graves can learn to play the 4 spot (and I doubt he learns that). Graves is a one-trick pony (streak shooter), and that one trick is done better by Barnes and Bullock (who also add other skills to the team).

Well, you may be right. Like I said UNC is a mystery to me at this point. I do believe that if UNC can get 12-15 points out of Zeller they are going to be a fairly decent team, because I do believe the other players Barnes, Bullock, Henson are going to score more than him, and that would give them pretty good offensive balance. If Zeller scores 8-9 ppg it is essentially the same as he did last year which is how I meant it, not as a decrease. Now if you account for the anticipated increase in PT you could look at it as a relative decrease in scoring. Of course defense has to be played as well, and who knows how that will work out for them. I don't know, I just have not been very impressed with what I have seen of Zeller and perhaps it is clouding my judgment of what he can do. Time will tell.

I do think you bring up an interesting point about Graves and his possible diminished role. How will that impact the locker room. He has never seemed to me to be a very stable, rock solid locker room influence anyway. Didn't he get booted for some team violation two years ago? That might be fun to watch if he is marginalized by a couple of freshmen, because he seems to be a bit of a cocky guy.

[kong123]

I do think you bring up an interesting point about Graves and his possible diminished role. How will that impact the locker room. He has never seemed to me to be a very stable, rock solid locker room influence anyway. Didn't he get booted for some team violation two years ago? That might be fun to watch if he is marginalized by a couple of freshmen, because he seems to be a bit of a cocky guy.

I have to disagree with your comment concerning Graves being a problem. I think Graves is a passive player and one that seems to be quite good natured. He doesn't seem to have a killer instinct on offense and seems to be very jovial on and off the court. While he may go through an adjustment, I don't think he will create a problem. I would be concerned about Strickland and McDonald. If Bullock is as good as some predict, their PT will be greatly reduced. They were the (somewhat) highly ranked freshman who may have a bruised ego. How will they handle it?

Both teams have multiple guys at the 2 that deserve lots of minutes. I will say that Duke has more depth of talent at that position with Smith, Curry, and Dawkins. It will be interesting indeed.

[CDu]

I do think you bring up an interesting point about Graves and his possible diminished role. How will that impact the locker room. He has never seemed to me to be a very stable, rock solid locker room influence anyway. Didn't he get booted for some team violation two years ago? That might be fun to watch if he is marginalized by a couple of freshmen, because he seems to be a bit of a cocky guy.

I tend to agree with Kong on this one. Graves just seems like a goofball and not a potential locker room cancer. Further, it's not like he's some big-time recruit anyway. He was a decently recruited player who had played all of about 400 minutes prior to last season. I'd guess he'd sort of role with the punches. I also agree that the much more heralded Strickland and McDonald would be the bigger concerns about chemistry. If Bullock wins the starting job and Marshall proves a capable #2 PG, that REALLY puts a dent into the minutes of two top-25 recruits.

[ACCBBallFan]

I tend to agree with Kong on this one. Graves just seems like a goofball and not a potential locker room cancer. Further, it's not like he's some big-time recruit anyway. He was a decently recruited player who had played all of about 400 minutes prior to last season. I'd guess he'd sort of role with the punches. I also agree that the much more heralded Strickland and McDonald would be the bigger concerns about chemistry. If Bullock wins the starting job and Marshall proves a capable #2 PG, that REALLY puts a dent into the minutes of two top-25 recruits.One top 25 and one top 50, but your main poiint about someone getting the short straw is accurate.

http://rscihoops.com/

Strickland was #24, Wears # 37-38 and MacDonald # 44.

My guess is Graves plays because he can shoot and Leslie MacODnald is # 10 in rotation with Drew II, Strickland, Marhsall, Bullock, Graves, and Barnes all ahead of him on outside, not counting Watts, and only 3 inside guys Zeller, Henson and Knox.

[Duvall]

Both teams have multiple guys at the 2 that deserve lots of minutes. I will say that Duke has more depth of talent at that position with Smith, Curry, and Dawkins. It will be interesting indeed.

Both teams have multiple guys at the 2, but I'm not sure that UNC has multiple guys that deserve lots of minutes. Bullock is highly touted, but still a freshman, and Strickland and McDonald...well.

[gumbomoop]

My guess is Graves plays because he can shoot and Leslie MacODnald is # 10 in rotation with Drew II, Strickland, Marhsall, Bullock, Graves, and Barnes all ahead of him on outside, not counting Watts, and only 3 inside guys Zeller, Henson and Knox.

I am still surprised we've heard no rumors about McDonald either redshirting or transferring. Even if one assumes that Barnes and Graves will "split" time at the 3, and even with Roy's standard [and increasingly irritating to some Heel faithful??] frequent substitutions, it's near-certain that Barnes will play about 30 mpg, so Graves takes some mpg at the 2, competing there with Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald.

So McDonald appears to be - depending on how one prefers to see it - either #4 on the depth-chart at the 2, or #5 at the wings. Does McDonald hope by his senior year to get 20 mpg? Is he that patient? Perhaps he does love Carolina enough to be mostly a minor cog for 3 and possibly all 4 years. Admirable.

If by chance both McDonald and Strickland should push ahead of Graves on the 2/wings depth-chart, well, in that unlikely scenario, one might easily imagine Graves becoming poison.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I am still surprised we've heard no rumors about McDonald either redshirting or transferring. Even if one assumes that Barnes and Graves will "split" time at the 3, and even with Roy's standard [and increasingly irritating to some Heel faithful??] frequent substitutions, it's near-certain that Barnes will play about 30 mpg, so Graves takes some mpg at the 2, competing there with Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald.

So McDonald appears to be - depending on how one prefers to see it - either #4 on the depth-chart at the 2, or #5 at the wings. Does McDonald hope by his senior year to get 20 mpg? Is he that patient? Perhaps he does love Carolina enough to be mostly a minor cog for 3 and possibly all 4 years. Admirable.

If by chance both McDonald and Strickland should push ahead of Graves on the 2/wings depth-chart, well, in that unlikely scenario, one might easily imagine Graves becoming poison.

Agree about McDonald. Of all the players that UNC had last year, I would have put money on McDonald transferring. The log jam at the 2 is ridiculous this year. Bullock, Barnes, Graves, Strickland, and McDonald can all play the 2.

[CDu]

I am still surprised we've heard no rumors about McDonald either redshirting or transferring. Even if one assumes that Barnes and Graves will "split" time at the 3, and even with Roy's standard [and increasingly irritating to some Heel faithful??] frequent substitutions, it's near-certain that Barnes will play about 30 mpg, so Graves takes some mpg at the 2, competing there with Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald.

So McDonald appears to be - depending on how one prefers to see it - either #4 on the depth-chart at the 2, or #5 at the wings. Does McDonald hope by his senior year to get 20 mpg? Is he that patient? Perhaps he does love Carolina enough to be mostly a minor cog for 3 and possibly all 4 years. Admirable.

If by chance both McDonald and Strickland should push ahead of Graves on the 2/wings depth-chart, well, in that unlikely scenario, one might easily imagine Graves becoming poison.

I don't see any way Graves plays the 2. He's just too slow, too poor a ballhandler, and too indifferent to the idea of defense. If anything, Graves could potentially pick up minutes at the 4 (where his lack of quickness and ballhandling wouldn't be an issue). But I don't think he's going to play at the 2 over Strickland or McDonald. I'd love it if Graves played the 2, but I don't think Williams would be that dumb.

That said, if Drew and Marshall play the PG and Barnes and Graves play the SF, that leaves only about 40 mpg for the trio of Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald at the SG spot. So someone is going to get the short stick in terms of minutes.

It may be that a couple of guys split about 20mpg (Graves and McDonald?), and the other four guards/wings split the remaining 100-105 minutes (assuming a few minutes per game at the 4 spot for Graves).

[Cockabeau]

Zellar is a rich man's Brian Bersticker.

[Indoor66]

Zellar is a rich man's Brian Bersticker.

Well, then he will be All ACC - ask Wheat.

[ACCBBallFan]

I don't see any way Graves plays the 2. He's just too slow, too poor a ballhandler, and too indifferent to the idea of defense. If anything, Graves could potentially pick up minutes at the 4 (where his lack of quickness and ballhandling wouldn't be an issue). But I don't think he's going to play at the 2 over Strickland or McDonald. I'd love it if Graves played the 2, but I don't think Williams would be that dumb.

That said, if Drew and Marshall play the PG and Barnes and Graves play the SF, that leaves only about 40 mpg for the trio of Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald at the SG spot. So someone is going to get the short stick in terms of minutes.

It may be that a couple of guys split about 20mpg (Graves and McDonald?), and the other four guards/wings split the remaining 100-105 minutes (assuming a few minutes per game at the 4 spot for Graves).In that scenario, instead of Graves playing the 2, Barnes would be the SG and Graves the WF.

When push comes to shove, (foul trouble for two of Zeller, Henson, Knox) those 2 are also the most likely to have to do emergency minutes at PF.

[oldnavy]

I have to disagree with your comment concerning Graves being a problem. I think Graves is a passive player and one that seems to be quite good natured. He doesn't seem to have a killer instinct on offense and seems to be very jovial on and off the court. While he may go through an adjustment, I don't think he will create a problem. I would be concerned about Strickland and McDonald. If Bullock is as good as some predict, their PT will be greatly reduced. They were the (somewhat) highly ranked freshman who may have a bruised ego. How will they handle it?

Both teams have multiple guys at the 2 that deserve lots of minutes. I will say that Duke has more depth of talent at that position with Smith, Curry, and Dawkins. It will be interesting indeed.

Yea, but you never know. I would not have guessed that easy Ed would have been the problem that he was rumored to be. Nor would I have guess Ginyard would have been such a poor senior leader. Anyway, after coming off a terrible year, where there were major chemistry problems all around including the coach, it will be interesting to see how the hot shot young guns fit in and mesh with the not so happy and veterans. It may not be anything at all, but what the heck else do we have to talk about.... hurry up November!!

[Cockabeau]

UNC only has a chance to be good next year if they play small. That is put Barnes or Graves at the four. Roy will not do this.

[DukieInBrasil]

UNC only has a chance to be good next year if they play small. That is put Barnes or Graves at the four. Roy will not do this.
Tho I agree that Roy is unlikely to do this, I am not sure that putting Graves at the 4 will increase their chances of being any good, except to get more good shooters (which they don't really have) on the floor. I say this fully expecting Bullock to play quite a bit regardless of where Graves plays. He's too short to be very effective either offensively or defensively at the 4.
Since I really only care about UNC when they play Duke, Graves would be horribly mismatched against essentially anyone that Duke would play at the 4: MPI or II, Singler, Kelly all being much taller than Graves and of at least equal mobility (Kelly) or much more mobile. All of those guys would be capable of defending Graves out to the 3pt line and Graves would essentially be useless against them in the post. The only guy that will play the 4 that Graves might match up well against in Hairston, and essentially only b/c of the Sr/Fr disparity. Athletically and size-wise, Josh could eat Graves up, only Graves' experience could possibly give him an edge over Josh.
I agree that Roy won't want to use HB at the 4 b/c it seems that HB wants to be in the show ASAP and he probably figures playing the 3 is the best way to do that, although he could probably play the 4 just fine. If Roy wants more chemistry problems then playing HB at the 4 most of the time is a good thing to do.

[uh_no]

UNC only has a chance to be good next year if they play small. That is put Barnes or Graves at the four. Roy will not do this.

I think that's quite a narrow minded statement......there are plenty of other ways UNC can be better next year.....not the least of all because they have harrison barnes playing ANY position.....zeller could improve a ton and be a beast (already discussed ad nauseum), the roster changes could have an effect on the team chemistry, and they could start to play a very team oriented game (imagine that, having success playing a team game with only 1 all american on the roster)......there are a TON of things UNC could end up doing to be better, so saying the ONLY way they can be good is if they play ONE way is a little silly I think

[sagegrouse]

UNC only has a chance to be good next year if they play small. That is put Barnes or Graves at the four. Roy will not do this.

I appreciate your posts, Cockabeau, although sometimes I think you are a plant by management to drive DBR message traffic.

I will say this for the seventh time and the seventh time only. :) :rolleyes: "The main difference between Duke and UNC last year was that Duke played hard every single play and UNC hardly ever played hard."

The Tarheel players were good on paper but not on the court. If we could tell this through the TV screen, I am sure a HOF coach can tell this from the bench. Practice this year at UNC will be a real barf-fest, I predict. I also think that Roy will take no prisoners and play the players that bring energy to the game. I also predict that UNC will be very good, no matter who starts.

Are there questions unanswered about UNC? You bet! It is thin in the frontcourt, both literally (Henson) and figuratively (only three big players). We'll have to see who runs the offense and how efficient he is. And we'll have to see if HB is the real deal from the git go -- I predict he will be. And, of course, the competition may be really tough in the ACC. :D

sagegrouse
'K would have benched all the scholarship players at UNC and played the walk-ons until the pampered darlings got the message. Would have taken a couple of games but UNC wouldn't have lost at Duke by 32'

[CDu]

UNC only has a chance to be good next year if they play small. That is put Barnes or Graves at the four. Roy will not do this.

I disagree completely on this. I think that UNC has a chance to be good if:

1) Barnes and Bullock provide the scoring punch from the wing that the team lacked last year
2) The combination of Drew and Marshall provides solid PG play
3) The trio of Zeller, Henson, and Knox can handle a combined ~75 minutes per game with solid production.
4) The new team plays more cohesively than they did last year.

In fact, I'd say that UNC could certainly get away with a rotation of Henson and Barnes at the 4, but it is by far not the only way UNC can be good.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I disagree completely on this. I think that UNC has a chance to be good if:

1) Barnes and Bullock provide the scoring punch from the wing that the team lacked last year
2) The combination of Drew and Marshall provides solid PG play
3) The trio of Zeller, Henson, and Knox can handle a combined ~75 minutes per game with solid production.
4) The new team plays more cohesively than they did last year.

In fact, I'd say that UNC could certainly get away with a rotation of Henson and Barnes at the 4, but it is by far not the only way UNC can be good.

That's a lot of "ifs". Despite Roy's reliance on PGs, I don't think that 2) is necessary for UNC to be good. Very good - then it's essential. I think they have the personnel who can overcome the PGs shortcomings. I fully agree that 1) is extremely important - and, unfortunately, I think that Barnes and Bullock can handle a lot of the scoring load (at least Barnes can). 3) and 4) are also really important for the team to be good.

IMO, UNC will be good next year and it comes down to Barnes. I haven't seen him play, but I've so much about how good he will be (for every positive article on Irving, there is at least 2 for Barnes. Damn that UNC fanbase!). I think Barnes not only has the talent, but has the hard-working attitude to help infuse some stability, confidence, and work ethic into this UNC bunch. I don't think he'll be the savior that UNC is expecting, but he will be really good for that program.

[OldPhiKap]

I will say this for the seventh time and the seventh time only. :) :rolleyes: "The main difference between Duke and UNC last year was that Duke played hard every single play and UNC hardly ever played hard."

The Tarheel players were good on paper but not on the court. If we could tell this through the TV screen, I am sure a HOF coach can tell this from the bench. Practice this year at UNC will be a real barf-fest, I predict. I also think that Roy will take no prisoners and play the players that bring energy to the game. I also predict that UNC will be very good, no matter who starts.

Are there questions unanswered about UNC? You bet! It is thin in the frontcourt, both literally (Henson) and figuratively (only three big players). We'll have to see who runs the offense and how efficient he is. And we'll have to see if HB is the real deal from the git go -- I predict he will be. And, of course, the competition may be really tough in the ACC. :D

sagegrouse
'K would have benched all the scholarship players at UNC and played the walk-ons until the pampered darlings got the message. Would have taken a couple of games but UNC wouldn't have lost at Duke by 32'


True, true and true. I expect this to be a very motivated and hungry group. Coach included.

[Duvall]

I appreciate your posts, Cockabeau, although sometimes I think you are a plant by management to drive DBR message traffic.

I will say this for the seventh time and the seventh time only. :) :rolleyes: "The main difference between Duke and UNC last year was that Duke played hard every single play and UNC hardly ever played hard."

The Tarheel players were good on paper but not on the court. If we could tell this through the TV screen, I am sure a HOF coach can tell this from the bench. Practice this year at UNC will be a real barf-fest, I predict. I also think that Roy will take no prisoners and play the players that bring energy to the game. I also predict that UNC will be very good, no matter who starts.

Are there questions unanswered about UNC? You bet! It is thin in the frontcourt, both literally (Henson) and figuratively (only three big players). We'll have to see who runs the offense and how efficient he is. And we'll have to see if HB is the real deal from the git go -- I predict he will be. And, of course, the competition may be really tough in the ACC. :D

sagegrouse
'K would have benched all the scholarship players at UNC and played the walk-ons until the pampered darlings got the message. Would have taken a couple of games but UNC wouldn't have lost at Duke by 32'

Yeah, they would have lost by 17-18.

Effort is overrated. It looked like plenty of guys were playing hard for UNC last year; they just weren't good at basketball. Adding Barnes and Bullock (and maybe Marshall) will help UNC dramatically not because they bring a new mental toughness to the team, but because they can actually put the ball in the basket with regularity.

[CDu]

That's a lot of "ifs". Despite Roy's reliance on PGs, I don't think that 2) is necessary for UNC to be good. Very good - then it's essential. I think they have the personnel who can overcome the PGs shortcomings. I fully agree that 1) is extremely important - and, unfortunately, I think that Barnes and Bullock can handle a lot of the scoring load (at least Barnes can). 3) and 4) are also really important for the team to be good.

IMO, UNC will be good next year and it comes down to Barnes. I haven't seen him play, but I've so much about how good he will be (for every positive article on Irving, there is at least 2 for Barnes. Damn that UNC fanbase!). I think Barnes not only has the talent, but has the hard-working attitude to help infuse some stability, confidence, and work ethic into this UNC bunch. I don't think he'll be the savior that UNC is expecting, but he will be really good for that program.

Sure, it's a lot of ifs, but I think any non-tourney team would have a lot of ifs. And I don't think #1 is a huge if (I think Barnes will be very good). I don't think they necessarily need all of those ifs to come true for them to be good. That was just a list of keys. My point was more that there are a lot of possible factors for UNC to be good, none of which necessitate playing Barnes or Graves at the 4.

[OldPhiKap]

Effort is overrated.

I think our team last year proves the contrary. As does Kentucky's, on the flip side.

Ask Wojo how far effort can take someone.


Most Carolina fans I know complained about the lack of effort, focus, and "give a darn" their team exhibited. They gave up at fight time. I don't expect to see that again.

[Duvall]

I think our team last year proves the contrary. As does Kentucky's, on the flip side.

Do not mistake a cold shooting night and the flukish outcomes of a single-elimination tournament for a lack of effort. You don't win 35 games without effort.


Most Carolina fans I know complained about the lack of effort, focus, and "give a darn" their team exhibited. They gave up at fight time.

Most fans are pretty dumb. Most of UNC's losses were over well before "fight time." And lack of execution is different from lack of effort. It takes plenty of effort to throw a pass into the third row.

[CDu]

Yeah, they would have lost by 17-18.

Effort is overrated. It looked like plenty of guys were playing hard for UNC last year; they just weren't good at basketball. Adding Barnes and Bullock (and maybe Marshall) will help UNC dramatically not because they bring a new mental toughness to the team, but because they can actually put the ball in the basket with regularity.

I mostly agree, but I think you're being a bit cavalier with the statement that effort is overrated. I think effort is plenty valuable. But I agree that effort alone won't get you wins. It's the combination of talent, effort, and cohesiveness.

UNC had talent, and they may have even had effort. They just lacked any cohesiveness on the floor. And I don't even mean that in a "chemistry" sense. I mean that in an Xs and Os and organizational sense. The team didn't seem to be on the same page in the games. So while they had some talented players, the whole was less than the sum of the parts.

I completely agree that the addition of Barnes and Bullock should make them a better team not because of effort, but because they're better players than Ginyard and Graves.

[OldPhiKap]

You don't win 35 games without effort.

I thought effort was overrated.


Most fans are pretty dumb.

But somehow, we're different?


And lack of execution is different from lack of effort. It takes plenty of effort to throw a pass into the third row.

I would argue that consistent lack of execution is from lack of effort. When Roy is complaining that it's the 52nd practice and no one knows where they're supposed to go, that's from not putting forth effort. When a team doesn't get back on defense after a turnover, that's lack of effort. When defenders consistently get beat to rebounding position, or don't fight through screens, that's lack of effort.

[Duvall]

I thought effort was overrated.

Overrated, not irrelevant. All good teams and most mediocre teams work hard. The difference in results usually comes down to talent and experience.


I would argue that consistent lack of execution is from lack of effort. When Roy is complaining that it's the 52nd practice and no one knows where they're supposed to go, that's from not putting forth effort.

Is it? Roy was complaining about one of his freshman shooting guards not understanding how to play the point in a brand-new system. That's not a lack of effort, that's a lack of experience.


When a team doesn't get back on defense after a turnover, that's lack of effort. When defenders consistently get beat to rebounding position, or don't fight through screens, that's lack of effort.

UNC was a solid rebounding team last season. Their biggest problem was their inability to shoot, wide-open or otherwise. And UNC's perimeter defense is always soft, even for the good teams. And their great teams. It's their system.

[SilkyJ]

Effort is overrated.


You don't win 35 games without effort.

Huh? Effort is overrated, but you're saying it also helped us win 35 games? I'm missing something...:confused:

[Duvall]

Huh? Effort is overrated, but you're saying it also helped us win 35 games? I'm missing something...:confused:

I'm saying it's absurd to think that last year's Kentucky squad was somehow lacking in effort. It's also absurd to contend, as many do, that some ineffable quality of effort or will separates good teams from bad, when it usually comes down to skill and talent.

[OldPhiKap]

We may just agree to disagree. I would argue that Duke and Butler were not the most talented teams last year, nor were they considered to be the most skilled teams in the country. But they both played harder than everyone else, and that was why they made it to the finals while KY, KU, SYR, etc. didn't.

Duke's greatest strength under K is that we tend to bring it every game, every possession. UNC, not so much last year. UNC had more skilled players, and more talent, than College of Charleston and Dayton yet lost to both. They gave up against Md (losing by 21), Clemson (losing by 19), Virginia (losing by 15), GT (17) and us (32). We did not have 32 points worth of talent and skill more than they did. We brought it strong, they wilted and gave up.

I don't discount that talent and skill are required to play at a top D-1 level. I think the mid-majors, and our own history, show that a determined squad of good athletes can knock off a more talented team that is unfocused mentally/emotionally. At some point, it comes down to who wants it more. Who has more heart.

Again, perhaps we just see it differently. No biggie.

[oldnavy]

I appreciate your posts, Cockabeau, although sometimes I think you are a plant by management to drive DBR message traffic.

I will say this for the seventh time and the seventh time only. :) :rolleyes: "The main difference between Duke and UNC last year was that Duke played hard every single play and UNC hardly ever played hard."

The Tarheel players were good on paper but not on the court. If we could tell this through the TV screen, I am sure a HOF coach can tell this from the bench. Practice this year at UNC will be a real barf-fest, I predict. I also think that Roy will take no prisoners and play the players that bring energy to the game. I also predict that UNC will be very good, no matter who starts.
Are there questions unanswered about UNC? You bet! It is thin in the frontcourt, both literally (Henson) and figuratively (only three big players). We'll have to see who runs the offense and how efficient he is. And we'll have to see if HB is the real deal from the git go -- I predict he will be. And, of course, the competition may be really tough in the ACC. :D

sagegrouse
'K would have benched all the scholarship players at UNC and played the walk-ons until the pampered darlings got the message. Would have taken a couple of games but UNC wouldn't have lost at Duke by 32'

If this is true then why didn't it happen last year? Did we see Ginyard's minutes drop or Easy Ed's (prior to injury) or any other McDonald's AA benched for lack of effort last year? We also heard that practices were rough and Ol Roy was in a perpetual bad mood. None of that had an impact. Why do you think the results this year will be different. The only way I see them being better is that the players that come back and the newbies put out more effort on their own without having to be motivated. Probably the one thing that Roy said last year that I agreed with is that he should not have to coach effort. He shouldn't BUT he also doesn't not have to play players who do not give effort. I would have done what you said K would do and that would be to sit the entire group down and play the bench players the whole game. At least when you lost under that scenario, it would be for a decent reason.

[oldnavy]

We may just agree to disagree. I would argue that Duke and Butler were not the most talented teams last year, nor were they considered to be the most skilled teams in the country. But they both played harder than everyone else, and that was why they made it to the finals while KY, KU, SYR, etc. didn't.

Duke's greatest strength under K is that we tend to bring it every game, every possession. UNC, not so much last year. UNC had more skilled players, and more talent, than College of Charleston and Dayton yet lost to both. They gave up against Md (losing by 21), Clemson (losing by 19), Virginia (losing by 15), GT (17) and us (32). We did not have 32 points worth of talent and skill more than they did. We brought it strong, they wilted and gave up.

I don't discount that talent and skill are required to play at a top D-1 level. I think the mid-majors, and our own history, show that a determined squad of good athletes can knock off a more talented team that is unfocused mentally/emotionally. At some point, it comes down to who wants it more. Who has more heart.

Again, perhaps we just see it differently. No biggie.

I would disagree, but only with the semantics. I would say that Duke was the best TEAM in the nation last year, but that we did not have the most talented players. There is a very big difference. I would not even say we played harder every game, but we played smarter almost in every game. Five moderately talented guys playing in sync and with passion will beat 5 highly talented guys doing their own thing almost every single time. I have seen this in the gym during pick up games so many times. You can get 5 older dudes on a team that block out, pass, screen, etc.. and play a group of younger, bigger dudes that can out run, out jump, out shoot, out everything and yet the older dudes will run the court. It happens all the time. Were the older dudes better players? Of course not, but they were a better TEAM. UNC had above average talent last year, but they stunk as a team.

[kong123]

I think, when a team is perceived to be less talented or "less athletic" than other teams, yet they still win, then people will say they do it with effort. I think Duke teams give great effort. They also do not appear to be as jovial on the sideline as other teams, which can lead people to believe that they are more disciplined. Whatever the case maybe, different strokes for different folks.

The opposite can be said of the Heels. Lots of talent, but because of the way they lost, everyone assumes they gave up or didn't put forth effort. I believe they did put forth effort but I also believe at points in the game, they gave up. I believe they buckled under pressure, both the coach, the fans, and the players. I believe the proper leadership from the players nor the coach, stepped up to guide the youngsters towards the light. It wasn't just the effort. Tons of things went wrong for the Heels to fail this way.

This year, things can go right.

[wilko]

Tons of things went wrong for the Heels to fail this way.

So the question remains..
1) What can we do to help increase the pressure on them ensuring an encore performance?
2) How can this wonderful feat be replicated under ANY circumstance?

[uh_no]

I would argue that Duke and Butler were not the most talented teams last year, nor were they considered to be the most skilled teams in the country. But they both played harder than everyone else, and that was why they made it to the finals while KY, KU, SYR, etc. didn't.


I agree with the first sentence, but I completely disagree with the second statement.

Did baylor not play hard? did west virginia not play hard? what about purdue? tom izzo's injured team....bet they didn't play hard.....

yeah we play hard, and you're not gonna win anything at this level without playing hard, but the reason we won is because we played smarter than everyone else.....we were able to control the game against every team we played.....we played a highly efficient form of offense, and played good team defense.....

i think it was mentioned before, but you can't win without effort, and any team that has success here is hard working, just because you've had success doesn't mean you are harder working than everyone else, or that someone who doesn't have success isn't hard working......

penn didn't have talent, and we beat their butts.....were they any less hard working? doubtful.....their players likely work just has hard as ours, and play their souls out every night....they didn't have the talent we did, and thus they didn't have the success

it takes talent, it takes effort, it takes a good team plan......we had all three.....we won

[sagegrouse]

If this is true then why didn't it happen last year? Did we see Ginyard's minutes drop or Easy Ed's (prior to injury) or any other McDonald's AA benched for lack of effort last year? We also heard that practices were rough and Ol Roy was in a perpetual bad mood. None of that had an impact. Why do you think the results this year will be different. The only way I see them being better is that the players that come back and the newbies put out more effort on their own without having to be motivated. Probably the one thing that Roy said last year that I agreed with is that he should not have to coach effort. He shouldn't BUT he also doesn't not have to play players who do not give effort. I would have done what you said K would do and that would be to sit the entire group down and play the bench players the whole game. At least when you lost under that scenario, it would be for a decent reason.

That's the question (in bold), I think. Why does a HOF coach put up with the nonsense I saw on the court for a full season? Well, he did. Maybe he never experienced these problems before. I think Roy has gone back to the drawing board about how to build and coach a team, and I expect next year to be different.

sagegrouse

[moonpie23]

i think duke WAS the better team (of course due to a multitude of things mentioned above).....single elimination can be deceiving especially with the money on the line. (see wvu vs. uk)

put those teams in a seven game series and i think it would go like this.

pine bluff - duke wins 4-0
cal - duke wins 4-0
purdue - duke wins 4-1
baylor - duke wins 4-2
wvu - duke wins 4-2
butler - duke wins 4-2 (maybe 4-3)

looking at the way duke played each of these opponents reveals a lot about how DUKE controlled the game. they did NOT let the pressure get to them and in the last 5 minutes of the game, were the most well-conditioned players to grind out the win...


http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[SilkyJ]

I'm saying it's absurd to think that last year's Kentucky squad was somehow lacking in effort. It's also absurd to contend, as many do, that some ineffable quality of effort or will separates good teams from bad, when it usually comes down to skill and talent.

Got it! Knew I missed something. When I think "35 wins" and "last year" I think of our 35 wins, but UK also won 35, so now I got it.


They also do not appear to be as jovial on the sideline as other teams

I dont know if what you're saying is a mainstream perception, but I've never heard it and certainly disagree with it. I see Duke's bench, including the assistant coaches and sometimes Coach K, react to plays their teammates make all the time and with genuine enthusiasm. Last year in particular was a great example of that.

[BD80]

... I think Duke teams ... do not appear to be as jovial on the sideline as other teams, ...

You mean they don't dance on the sidelines like idiots? Or prance/goosestep along the sideline with an "O" face and pumping their fists?

I'm OK with that.

[Indoor66]

You mean they don't dance on the sidelines like idiots? Or prance/goosestep along the sideline with an "O" face and pumping their fists?

I'm OK with that.

Or all the subs leap off the bench, in unison, at the happening of any little event on the court?

[whereinthehellami]

Coach K is a control guy. I don't think he sees the court as a place to express your individuality. The last guy Duke had like that IMO was Greg Newton and he spent some time in Coach's doghouse.

Roy seems to be the opposite. From the Latenight with Roy and the Danny Green spectacle, he seems to revel in the attention individuals receive. I can't think of many coaches who would have tolerated the Danny Green show. It was all about Danny, right before a game. Back when I was a player that would have pissed me off. How can you have the right game preperation when a teammate of yours is dancing around like an idiot begging for any attention he can receive? And Roy was okay with it. Unbelievable.

[moonpie23]

You mean they don't dance on the sidelines like idiots? Or prance/goosestep along the sideline with an "O" face and pumping their fists?

I'm OK with that.

PRECISELY........unc is all about arrogance....they're usually in choreographed amazement of some high flying jam while college of charleston is waxing them.......

forget about being a team....forget about the game.....they're here to make the SC top ten....

in fact, the only time i saw them NOT pulling their little schtick was when it was 82-50....

http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

[kong123]

Coach K is a control guy. I don't think he sees the court as a place to express your individuality. The last guy Duke had like that IMO was Greg Newton and he spent some time in Coach's doghouse.

Roy seems to be the opposite. From the Latenight with Roy and the Danny Green spectacle, he seems to revel in the attention individuals receive. I can't think of many coaches who would have tolerated the Danny Green show. It was all about Danny, right before a game. Back when I was a player that would have pissed me off. How can you have the right game preperation when a teammate of yours is dancing around like an idiot begging for any attention he can receive? And Roy was okay with it. Unbelievable.

So you really think it was about Danny Green? Didn't have anything to do with firing up the "wine and cheese" crowd? If you are the kind of player who couldn't have fun in a situation like that- then who would want to be around you? I doubt Roy loved the idea of it, but when he saw how well it went over and didn't see a drop off in quality of play, then why stop it? Kids will be kids, why ruin an experience if it doesn't create a problem?

[sagegrouse]

Coach K is a control guy. I don't think he sees the court as a place to express your individuality. The last guy Duke had like that IMO was Greg Newton and he spent some time in Coach's doghouse.



I might agree if you defined "lack of control" as showboating or dumb-arsed behavior on the sideline. But K wants fantastic individual talent and play within a team context. IIRC K showed a point guard recruit (Paulus?) a tape of Bobby Hurley bringing the ball up the court and said, "What do you see in this picture?" "Cockiness," K said, "Pure cockiness. That's what we want in a point guard." Isn't cockiness "individuality?"

And if you thought Greg Newton's problem was too much individuality, we weren't watching the same games.

sagegrouse

[77devil]

Coach K is a control guy. I don't think he sees the court as a place to express your individuality. The last guy Duke had like that IMO was Greg Newton and he spent some time in Coach's doghouse.

I would add that Coach K is all about team.


Roy seems to be the opposite. From the Latenight with Roy and the Danny Green spectacle, he seems to revel in the attention individuals receive. I can't think of many coaches who would have tolerated the Danny Green show. It was all about Danny, right before a game. Back when I was a player that would have pissed me off. How can you have the right game preperation [sic] when a teammate of yours is dancing around like an idiot begging for any attention he can receive? And Roy was okay with it. Unbelievable.

Couldn't agree more and yet Roy is arguably the most successful active coach behind Coach K in the men's college game(see Olympic Fan post).

I think watching the this season's baby blues evolve will be fascinating. You've got plenty of discord and several bad actors left over from last year combined with an apparent narcissist in Barnes and a trash talker in Bullock before he stepped onto the college court. And you have Roy presumably wanting to implement changes after last season's disaster. All this makes for a potentially volatile brew with unpredictable results. Should be interesting at the least.

[MarkD83]

PRECISELY........unc is all about arrogance....they're usually in choreographed amazement of some high flying jam while college of charleston is waxing them.......

forget about being a team....forget about the game.....they're here to make the SC top ten....

in fact, the only time i saw them NOT pulling their little schtick was when it was 82-50....

http://ui32.gamespot.com/479/702headbanginstick_4.gif

Actually, Henson started woofing at Miles after a dunk while UNC was down by 30.

[BD80]

Actually, Henson started woofing at Miles after a dunk while UNC was down by 30.

Don't you need a chest cavity to woof?

I believe the word you are looking for is "yip."

[DukieInBrasil]

Don't you need a chest cavity to woof?

I believe the word you are looking for is "yip."

That's funny. Yips and yippy dogs make me think of chihuahuas or those mini-dobermans, and Henson is quite a bit bigger than either of those. Still, when compared to the big bodies of NCAA and NBA basketball, Henson is a far cry from being in the "woof"er category. Can you imagine him trying to woof/yip down Nene? Nene would make a "porrada" out of Henson.
(porrada is brazilian portuguese for something I can't write on this family-friendly board)

[UrinalCake]

I discovered that iTunes has a recording of the 82-50 game that you can purchase for just a couple bucks. I watched it yesterday for the first time since it happened and was grinning from ear to ear for two solid hours. What striked me most was the body language of the Carolina players, even early in the game. It was like someone told them ahead of time they were going to lose by 30. Also, Henson and Zeller actually had somewhat decent games, I'm sure they'll be plenty hungry when they come in next year and will really bring it.

[jipops]

So you really think it was about Danny Green? Didn't have anything to do with firing up the "wine and cheese" crowd? If you are the kind of player who couldn't have fun in a situation like that- then who would want to be around you? I doubt Roy loved the idea of it, but when he saw how well it went over and didn't see a drop off in quality of play, then why stop it? Kids will be kids, why ruin an experience if it doesn't create a problem?

Kind of created a problem once he got to Cleveland:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Joakim-Noah-takes-exception-to-LeBron-Jam?urn=nba-206931

[kong123]

Kind of created a problem once he got to Cleveland:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Joakim-Noah-takes-exception-to-LeBron-Jam?urn=nba-206931

throw Danny Green out of the league!!!! he brought a little fun to the locker room and to the sideline!!!! quit reaching so far.

[slower]

throw Danny Green out of the league!!!! he brought a little fun to the locker room and to the sideline!!!! quit reaching so far.

Our reach exceeds your grasp. :D

[gumbomoop]

Thought I'd post this here, rather than on Roy Waaaa thread, as the generic Carolina thread will continue.

What I'm about to say here is altogether speculative [and in that regard not so different from lots of summer posts], based, as it is, on a cursory glance at 2 boxscores from UNC's Bahama exhibitions.

I've wondered more than once about a possible redshirt/transfer for Leslie McDonald. Appears I'm wrong. From what one might infer from 2 boxscores, he played more and better than Graves. As did Bullock and Strickland.. Does this mean Bullock and Strickland [sort of expected] and McDonald [unexpected, by me at least] have all moved ahead of Graves for PT? More important, if Graves is healthy but has nevertheless moved down depth chart, does Graves "accept" this?

I'm aware that players have to accept a coach's decision in one sense, but as many posters have noted that team chemistry is a key issue for UNC in '10-'11, it would be a big, big plus for the Heels should Graves be - and accept being - a 10-12 mpg role player. That is, will Graves [ouch] accept that the frosh and sophs are not only the future, but the present, and that he must be a team-guy, not me-guy?

On this board I've rarely read - or said - a kind word about Graves. But if his attitude about a possible/likely reduced role is upbeat, that would be a good sign for the Heels.

[ACCBBallFan]

Neither Graves nor MacDonald would play more than half the game at that rate of fouling.

I think the most worrisome part in the game 2 box score is Zeller fouling out in 15 minutes. Barnes also fouled out in 28 min and Graves had 4 fouls in 13 min, MacDonald had 4 fouls and filled up every other stats line in 17 min, and Strickland had 4 fouls in 28 minutes.

Roy had to go to a 2-3 zone or 5 of his 9 players would have fouled out and he would have had to finish the game with only 4 guys on the floor.

http://www.fanfeedr.com/ncaa-basketball/2010/08/13/unc-ba-box-score

If Tyler Zeller cannot stay out of foul trouble, UNC is toast with only Justin Knox above 220 pounds except Graves who is only 6'6". Hesnon is tall but has no bulk and will get muscled away from the basket.

If Justin Knox had not had to finish up his degree last week to be eligible to transfer, this trip would have really helped him get used to his new teammates, and to give Roy that extra big for cases like this where Zeller or Henson is in foul trouble.

[BlueThru&Thru]

I think the most worrisome part in the game 2 box score is Zeller fouling out in 15 minutes. Barnes also fouled out in 28 min and Graves had 4 fouls in 13 min, MacDonald had 4 fouls and filled up every other stats line in 17 min, and Strickland had 4 fouls in 28 minutes.

I think the most worrisome part is that the Bahamas teams scored 87 and 86 pts. Realizing that that defense is the most difficult aspect of the game for newcomers to learn, the opposing point totals and the fouls are worrisome. This will have to change dramatically by November or there will be another season of gnashing of teeth.

[wilko]

This will have to change dramatically by November or there will be another season of gnashing of teeth.


Not necessarily...
I can close my eyes and pretend the teeth gnashing sounds are crickets and frogs.
Those sounds; along with rain help me sleep better.... knowing that the Holes are miserable to boot; feels like Fall weather in the 70's to me..

[kong123]

The game was poorly officiated to say the least. Almost half of their points each game came from the line. Now is that all bad defense? Sure, most here would say that it is, but by reading some of the reports from the game, the home team benefited greatly from the home court referee's.

On the other hand, if a team runs as much as UNC does, and Duke will this year, the other team will have more offensive possessions. Both heels opponents shot in the mid 30's. That isn't horrible is it? The huge difference is free throw shooting.

On another note, it is great to see UNC making 3's again.

[BattierBattalion]

Does anyone know what UNC did when Zeller got into foul trouble? Was Barnes moved to the 4? Did Graves come in at the 4?

[BattierBattalion]

The game was poorly officiated to say the least. Almost half of their points each game came from the line. Now is that all bad defense? Sure, most here would say that it is, but by reading some of the reports from the game, the home team benefited greatly from the home court referee's.


Precisely. 87 points allowed is good defense if there were 90+ possessions. Besides, it's an exhibition game. Most teams, ESPECIALLY UNC, know that you don't actually have to play defense until the NCAAT :p . That is assuming one makes the NCAAT.

[wilko]

The game was poorly officiated to say the least. The home team benefited greatly from the home court referee's. Heh.. A UNC fan talking about he refs in a preseason exhibition... careful when the lightning strikes.
Something about this statement doesnt quite pass the sniff test to me.


On another note, it is great to see UNC making 3's again. Respectfully disagree... you trying to give me bad dreams?
Its much better when they miss or get defended/pressured into a bad decison.

[BlueThru&Thru]

The game was poorly officiated to say the least. Almost half of their points each game came from the line. Now is that all bad defense? Sure, most here would say that it is, but by reading some of the reports from the game, the home team benefited greatly from the home court referee's.

On the other hand, if a team runs as much as UNC does, and Duke will this year, the other team will have more offensive possessions. Both heels opponents shot in the mid 30's. That isn't horrible is it? The huge difference is free throw shooting.

On another note, it is great to see UNC making 3's again.

On yet another note it looks like we may have a reincarnation of TH's intensity in Barnes from all reports. Bullock also is going to be a player. Looks like the esprit de corp will be back and then with a little off-season work - Surprise!...Wilko's bad dreams have returned

[wilko]

...a little off-season work - Surprise!...

Off season work? Already looking forward to next year?
I'll worry about next year when its a little closer :-)

[MChambers]

On yet another note it looks like we may have a reincarnation of TH's intensity in Barnes from all reports. Bullock also is going to be a player. Looks like the esprit de corp will be back and then with a little off-season work - Surprise!...Wilko's bad dreams have returned

Yup,UNC's results playing some nondescript teams in the Bahamas gives us Duke fans reason to worry and lose sleep . . . NOT!

[kong123]

Does anyone know what UNC did when Zeller got into foul trouble? Was Barnes moved to the 4? Did Graves come in at the 4?

Barnes was moved to the 4 with Bullock playing the 3.

[BD80]

Barnes was moved to the 4 with Bullock playing the 3.

Is the proper response here a giggle or a snicker?

Oh, I know we should be above laughing at Prince Harry's lot in life. But I am not above it. After he Skyped Duke, I am damn sure going to enjoy every second he spends anchored to the post, doing the dirty work ol' roy promised he would never have to do.

Maybe the NEXT kid won't be so willing to accept ol roy's "aw shucks" BS.

[BlueThru&Thru]

Is the proper response here a giggle or a snicker?

Oh, I know we should be above laughing at Prince Harry's lot in life. But I am not above it. After he Skyped Duke, I am damn sure going to enjoy every second he spends anchored to the post, doing the dirty work ol' roy promised he would never have to do.

Maybe the NEXT kid won't be so willing to accept ol roy's "aw shucks" BS.

That's King Harry to you :p

[Duvall]

That's King Harry to you :p

Pretty sure the throne still belong to the similarly modest LeBron James at this point. Maybe when Barnes wins some games outside of Iowa or the Bahamas he can make a play for the crown.

[BlueintheFace]

http://i.imgur.com/TwQMc.png http://i.imgur.com/LqWKx.png

[ACCBBallFan]

Barnes was moved to the 4 with Bullock playing the 3. And Barnes fouled out too, after 28 minutes, plus Graves had 4 fouls in 13 minutes but still recovering from surgery.

There must have been one guy who could draw fouls or as Heels fans say,, the refs did it.

[BD80]

That's King Harry to you :p

Not while the Queen still rules!

[airowe]

I found the reason for carolina's struggles last year:

http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2010/08/13/did-harrison-barnes-curse-unc/

[Osiagledknarf]

I was browsing the internet and I found this and got a good laugh out of it; This was talking about the matchups vs. Duke and UNC next season:



I disagree slightly but not in the way you think. barnes can outplay sunglare and it wont even be close. casper was exposed last year during there fixed game against baylor and if he had trouble then, hes gonna be in hell when he faces harrison.

i also think you are underselling marshall. he may not be the fastest but he has a very high bball iq and very good lenght. he is a real student of the game and i think more then once hes gonna prove it on defense by shutting down players just by anticipation and a quick first step because he already knows there gameplan. i dont think theres a single guard as smart as him in that regard. besides strickland is looking to be a lock down defender and could smother irving on D if needed.

i cant wait to see those I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ie shrimps curry and smith try and handle bullocks height. hes gonna be impossible for them to contain when he shoots over them or on defense is just to big to shoot over.

as for the post matchups, our bigs are already better then the ones last year that the plummers couldnt even start over. its not gonna be pretty for I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and with them struggling to get rebounds and pass to the guards which is all I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. uses them for anyways theyre impact on the game will be little to none.


i seriously am shocked when i see anyone think its going to be even close. all the dead weight from last year is gone folks, and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. lost most of there title team. its going to be a big time slaughter when we go into HIS again, as well as when we crush them on senior night. book it!

My reaction: hahaha!!

[Son of Mojo]

I was browsing the internet and I found this and got a good laugh out of it; This was talking about the matchups vs. Duke and UNC next season:



I disagree slightly but not in the way you think. barnes can outplay sunglare and it wont even be close. casper was exposed last year during there fixed game against baylor and if he had trouble then, hes gonna be in hell when he faces harrison.

i also think you are underselling marshall. he may not be the fastest but he has a very high bball iq and very good lenght. he is a real student of the game and i think more then once hes gonna prove it on defense by shutting down players just by anticipation and a quick first step because he already knows there gameplan. i dont think theres a single guard as smart as him in that regard. besides strickland is looking to be a lock down defender and could smother irving on D if needed.

i cant wait to see those I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ie shrimps curry and smith try and handle bullocks height. hes gonna be impossible for them to contain when he shoots over them or on defense is just to big to shoot over.

as for the post matchups, our bigs are already better then the ones last year that the plummers couldnt even start over. its not gonna be pretty for I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and with them struggling to get rebounds and pass to the guards which is all I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. uses them for anyways theyre impact on the game will be little to none.


i seriously am shocked when i see anyone think its going to be even close. all the dead weight from last year is gone folks, and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. lost most of there title team. its going to be a big time slaughter when we go into HIS again, as well as when we crush them on senior night. book it!

My reaction: hahaha!!

Not only was it laughable for the content but the grammar and language........ugh.

[gumbomoop]

I have visited IC a couple of times this month [not a comfortable admission to make]. The poster to whom you refer is much - and rightly - suspected by other IC folks as a parody poster. So over the top, not to mention so poorly written, is every - every - post from "HeelsChamps2011and2012and2013" that my own suspicion is that s/he is actually one of us: a Duke fan having a wonderful time putting on the IC crowd. Even some of the understandably fervent Heel posters think this poster is either an at-first-weird-Heel-homer-but-now-suspicious parodist, or an idiot. I vote for one of us, and think the parodist will self-reveal, perhaps on both boards, sooner or later.

It sure ain't me, but I'm betting it's one of you, i.e., us. So, don't take these "opinions" too seriously. Heel fans don't, even the most optimistic ones. They've become pretty irritated by this poster.

One way or another, there's a big joke going on there, I think a pretty good one.

[BlueThru&Thru]

Not while the Queen still rules!

I misspoke. They are all pretenders to the throne of King Michael.

[BlueThru&Thru]

I have visited IC a couple of times this month [not a comfortable admission to make]. The poster to whom you refer is much - and rightly - suspected by other IC folks as a parody poster. So over the top, not to mention so poorly written, is every - every - post from "HeelsChamps2011and2012and2013" that my own suspicion is that s/he is actually one of us: a Duke fan having a wonderful time putting on the IC crowd. Even some of the understandably fervent Heel posters think this poster is either an at-first-weird-Heel-homer-but-now-suspicious parodist, or an idiot. I vote for one of us, and think the parodist will self-reveal, perhaps on both boards, sooner or later.

It sure ain't me, but I'm betting it's one of you, i.e., us. So, don't take these "opinions" too seriously. Heel fans don't, even the most optimistic ones. They've become pretty irritated by this poster.

One way or another, there's a big joke going on there, I think a pretty good one.

The guy is obviously a plant or an idiot. No one takes his post seriously.

[dukelifer]

On yet another note it looks like we may have a reincarnation of TH's intensity in Barnes from all reports. Bullock also is going to be a player. Looks like the esprit de corp will be back and then with a little off-season work - Surprise!...Wilko's bad dreams have returned

Just remember, the Duke guys got better as well this summer. Singler may not play with TH's intensity- but he is cold-blooded and has done it on the biggest stage. Mr Barnes has to show he can play in the bright lights and live up to the high expectations of the number one player. Just never know. Should be a fun year for sure.

[sagegrouse]

Just remember, the Duke guys got better as well this summer. Singler may not play with TH's intensity- but he is cold-blooded and has done it on the biggest stage. Mr Barnes has to show he can play in the bright lights and live up to the high expectations of the number one player. Just never know. Should be a fun year for sure.

Also at the Team USA scrimmage one knowledgeable observer said that both Singler and Smith looked like they belonged with the NBA players not the college players --and those guys are near All-Stars.

BTW I expect Carolina to be very good and very dangerous next year. I think its most optimistic fans are under-valuing the difficulty in building a team out of the mess that occurred last year and a lot of new players. Consistency will be the problem, but that doesn't mean that UNC, on some nights, won't be the best team in the country.

sagegrouse

[oldnavy]

Just remember, the Duke guys got better as well this summer. Singler may not play with TH's intensity- but he is cold-blooded and has done it on the biggest stage. Mr Barnes has to show he can play in the bright lights and live up to the high expectations of the number one player. Just never know. Should be a fun year for sure.

I have a hard time buying that HB will play with TH's intensity. Or for that matter anyone will play with TH's intensity. That was what made him a special player. His skill level was slightly above average, but his hustle and focus were off the charts. Players like that only come along very infrequently. If he has TH's intensity with his skill set, he may be the best player of all time, so forgive me if I am a little skeptical of those type of statements.

[Class of '94]

I have a hard time buying that HB will play with TH's intensity. Or for that matter anyone will play with TH's intensity. That was what made him a special player. His skill level was slightly above average, but his hustle and focus were off the charts. Players like that only come along very infrequently. If he has TH's intensity with his skill set, he may be the best player of all time, so forgive me if I am a little skeptical of those type of statements.

And Singler IMO is no slouch when it comes to intensity. I've always thought Sinlger was our version of TH when it came to toughness, playing hard and intensity. Kyle may not have always played great; but I never thought he took plays off or didn't bring 110 percent effort to every game he has played. He just might have deferred a little too much to older players in the past.

[BattierBattalion]

And Singler IMO is no slouch when it comes to intensity. I've always thought Sinlger was our version of TH when it came to toughness, playing hard and intensity. Kyle may not have always played great; but I never thought he took plays off or didn't bring 110 percent effort to every game he has played. He just might have deferred a little too much to older players in the past.

Additionally, TH was basically UNC's DH, a David Ortiz-type. Yes, he was excellent at scoring within 10 feet of the basket, but he was a so-so rebounder (believe me, look at the rebounding rates, not the absolute numbers) and useless on the defensive end. Casual fans put way too much emphasis on scoring. In reality, players have way more responsibilities. TH could only affect his team positively if he was scoring. He never really learned how to play without the ball (e.g. setting screens) or how to involve his teammates (e.g. kicking out to a teammate in a double/triple team situation, passing from the high post). Rather he spent his off-seasons learning how to jack three pointers.

Fortunate for UNC in 2009, Tyler wasn't their best player. He was probably the third best after Ty Lawson and Ed Davis. I don't think you win a championship with Tyler as your best player. He's too one dimensional. For those of you guys who think I may be a little biased. I actually feel the same way about JJ Redick. Though, I really like what Redick has become in Orlando (defense, instant-offense guy off the bench).

As you might have gleaned, I'd take Singler any day over Tyler. He doesn't have the prolific numbers, but Singler plays defense, intelligently, and can affect the game without scoring. He knows how to involve his teammates and yet take over games when necessary. He's been the ultimately team guy from day one, basically playing out of position for two years without ever complaining. You can win a championship with Singler as your best player.

[gumbomoop]

Fortunate for UNC in 2009, Tyler wasn't their best player. He was probably the third best after Ty Lawson and Ed Davis. I don't think you win a championship with Tyler as your best player. He's too one dimensional. For those of you guys who think I may be a little biased. I actually feel the same way about JJ Redick. Though, I really like what Redick has become in Orlando (defense, instant-offense guy off the bench).

As you might have gleaned, I'd take Singler any day over Tyler. He doesn't have the prolific numbers, but Singler plays defense, intelligently, and can affect the game without scoring. He knows how to involve his teammates and yet take over games when necessary. He's been the ultimately team guy from day one, basically playing out of position for two years without ever complaining. You can win a championship with Singler as your best player.

This is a very interesting post and an intriguing argument. I don't quite buy the Ed Davis part, but let me focus on my agreement with BB. I thought pretty highly of TH's determination, but BB makes an argument re his deficiencies that merits some further discussion .

I'd sure take TH on my team, but I wouldn't trade KS to get him, for the several reasons BB cites. I especially want to second the idea that Kyle plays defense intelligently, which, I'd argue, is [B]both because of and despite the fact that he plays defense angrily. More than once I have remarked that Kyle struck me as pissed off on defense, pretty much 100% of the time. Maybe it's his football background. Whatever, every time Kyle smiles on the court, he seems to be saying, "Hit me harder next time, because I'm sure as hell going to do everything I can to make you miserable this whole game." [Unless he was smiling at the thought of his next graphic arts project. Doing that multi-tasking thing so common among younger folks.] Beyond fierceness, Kyle's D-mode is the exemplar of "Duke plays every play."

[Sandman]

Most fans in this thread seem to think that the sticky heels will be some better this year than last, but not a major ACC threat. Today, I checked out a number of 2010-11 College BB magazines and was somewhat surprised by the HIGH regard that the writers have for this UNC squad. 6th, 8th, and 12th were some of the preseason rankings I saw. From their comments, they were very impressed with the heels FRONT court! That surprised me. I don't see it -- the lack of muscle and dept seem to me to limit their front court. The new Alabama guy was nothing great on a mediocre AL team; Henson is way too thin to bang effectively inside all season; Zeller is frequently battling injuries; and that's it, except for frosh haybarns and bullock. What are writers seeing that I'm missing? Is it the Carolina glitter or is there substance to their predictions??

[kong123]

I think UNC filled a couple of holes that caused them major issues on offense last year. Bullock and HB should be able to be consistent enough from the outside to make defenses play them honestly. Point guard play will improve because of this. Whether or not they can play defense remains to be seen. If injuries can be avoided, UNC should be much better than they were last year, which isn't hard to do!

[Indoor66]

I think UNC filled a couple of holes that caused them major issues on offense last year. Bullock and HB should be able to be consistent enough from the outside to make defenses play them honestly. Point guard play will improve because of this. Whether or not they can play defense remains to be seen. If injuries can be avoided, UNC should be much better than they were last year, which isn't hard to do!

That is if they all play the same game at the same time, unlike last year.

[dukeballboy88]

I think UNC will be much better than last year but I think Duke is the clear cut favorite to win the league. Then your gonna have UNC, VATECH, MD, State, Wake, Miami all fighting for 2nd. I dont think Duke will go undefeated but clearly they are the best team.

What scares me about UNC is Roy is motivated and he has a go to guy that can get his on shot. Last year when it was time to shoot the guys on the floor for roy didnt know who was going to take the shot. Next year its Barnes team and he is very poised to be so young and I think him alone is good for 5 or 6 wins.

I read an article the other day where Dan Gilbert said that HB is gonna help Cleveland fans forget Lebron!

[thenameisbond]

I think they will definitely be better this year. Last season, they lacked leadership and reliable outside shooting (except for Graves). As long as Zeller remains healthy, they should improve. The incoming class is very talented and Barnes will contribute immediately.

I think their main issues will be chemistry and depth in the post. They should still finish the season in the top 4 of the ACC and be back in the NCAA tournament again.

[davekay1971]

They have so many questions, I feel like they could vary anywhere between middle of the ACC pack to competing for number 2 in the ACC.

1) PG play. Will Drew make a significant improvement? Will Marshall be ready to play at the ACC level? Will Roy's ego deflate enough for him to adjust his style of play to the fact that he still doesn't have Felton or Lawson running the point?

2) Will Bullock solve the outside shooting woes that hurt them so badly last year? When Will Graves is your best outside shooter, you have problems. Bullock's supposed to be a great shooter...Carolina needed one of those last year.

3) Injuries. They were killed by the injury bug last year, and their inside is too thin (pun intended) to deal with that this year. Can Zeller finally stay healthy? If so, then their frontcourt will be okay -thin, but talented. If not, they're going to struggle.

4) Chemistry. Once again Roy is bringing in a highly regarded freshman class, this time mixing them with a group that had a tough, tough year. Will the upperclassmen be so hungry to win that they'll accept Barnes, Bullock, and, maybe, Marshall taking starting minutes and touches? Hope so for them (actually, I hope not, but that's just me). Last year sure cast Roy's ability to handle chemistry issues in doubt.

[ncexnyc]

I’m not really surprised that Carolina has cracked the Top 10 in a number of polls. They’ve got the top incoming player in Barnes and the incoming class as a whole is arguably the best in the nation. Despite the heat that Drew takes, the kid does have talent. No, he won’t be a great point guard, but then he doesn’t have to be. Zeller is a skilled post player and the only thing that has held him back so far are injuries, something we should all be able to relate too. Henson is another player who gets little respect on this board, but by the end of last season he was putting up some decent numbers as a freshman. He reminds me of one of those defensive players on a football team that is always around the ball. As Duke fans we can focus on his lack of bulk and strength, but the kid has some serious upside to his game. They’ve also got some nice parts that should be decent bench players.

Yeah, they appeared very dysfunctional last year, but for us to pin our hopes on a repeat of that is a bit of a stretch. They’ll be very good and they will provide a challenge to us and frankly it shouldn’t be any other way

[yancem]

With regard to unc's preseason rankings, don't over look that they are still unc and only 2 years removed from a ncaa championship. Last year was an abnormal season for unc and most writers will give them a pass until that becomes a trend. With the exception of the top 3-5 teams, the rest of the to 20 is a bit of a crap shoot when picking preseason rankings. There are just too many variables, senior leadership gone; who will replace it, talented freshman coming; how will they adjust, how will team chemistry develop, etc. So many sports writers give weight to who is coaching and how the teams have traditionally fared. They don't look at a single season in a vacuum.

Duke has benefited from this same frame of mind on several occasions. When you have a hall of fame coach on the bench and talented incoming freshman, ranking them high is a safer bet than highly ranking a non traditional power that had a great run the previous year but usually isn't very good.

[gumbomoop]

I’m not really surprised that Carolina has cracked the Top 10 in a number of polls.

Yeah, they appeared very dysfunctional last year, but for us to pin our hopes on a repeat of that is a bit of a stretch.

While not disagreeing at all with davekay1971's [and other posters'] point that UNC has lots of issues that must go right for a Heel-revival, I do tend to think, with ncexnyc, that they will revive in '10-'11. I think borderline pre-top-10 is perfectly reasonable for them.

But - and I raised this briefly on the "Duke weaknesses" thread - there's one particular "dysfunctional issue" that intrigues me. I don't live anywhere near the Triangle, but I have the distinct impression that some Heel fans themselves not only "blame" Drew for sloppy play, but think he seriously considered a transfer at end of last season, and didn't do right by abandoning Chapel Hill midway through this summer to go back to California to train on his own, when, so the thinking seems to go, he "should" have been bonding with the new guys, of whom he is the putative returning vet-leader.

To those of you in the know, not to mention the vicinity, am I merely imagining, Schadenfreude-style, bad vibes re Drew? And even if I'm hallucinating on the particulars, it's true, right, that there's a delicate issue re a possible leadership contest between Drew and Barnes?

[whereinthehellami]

Here are my rambling thoughts:


Henson is going to lead the league in blocks and be a force in the paint with tons of dunks. Foul trouble and strength will be concerns.


Drew, Zeller, Strickland, McDonald, Marshall, and the other bench minions don't scare me. They will be good but its the ACC, they sould be good.


Bullock will have good games and bad ones. He has talent but consistency and maturity will be a struggle for him all year long.


HB could be a real problem. Alot of teams aren't going to be able to stop him. He is the X factor. If he gets injured the heels are toast.


There have been some rumors flying about with the UNC corruption spilling over to basketball. Will it? If it does, what does that do to this young team that collapsed last year when the going got tough. Do they have the character to overcome it?

[Jeff Frosh]

I’m not really surprised that Carolina has cracked the Top 10 in a number of polls. They’ve got the top incoming player in Barnes and the incoming class as a whole is arguably the best in the nation. Despite the heat that Drew takes, the kid does have talent. No, he won’t be a great point guard, but then he doesn’t have to be. Zeller is a skilled post player and the only thing that has held him back so far are injuries, something we should all be able to relate too. Henson is another player who gets little respect on this board, but by the end of last season he was putting up some decent numbers as a freshman. He reminds me of one of those defensive players on a football team that is always around the ball. As Duke fans we can focus on his lack of bulk and strength, but the kid has some serious upside to his game. They’ve also got some nice parts that should be decent bench players.

Yeah, they appeared very dysfunctional last year, but for us to pin our hopes on a repeat of that is a bit of a stretch. They’ll be very good and they will provide a challenge to us and frankly it shouldn’t be any other way

Put me in the camp that believes that, until he proves otherwise (which IMO is unlikely), good ole Roy cannot have a great (top 10) team unless he has a great (and fast) point guard.

[oldnavy]

The preseason rankings are very similar to last year in the sense I think they are based on reputation more than actual talent. This year's team should be better, but who knows?

I will reserve judgement until I have seen them play a couple of games. Last year by the time they played Nevada, I was saying that they were way overrated, and that the frontcourt was not only NOT the best in the nation, but not even one of the top three in the ACC. I took some heat for that and I guess that opinion it is still debatable. However, despite my predictions last November, I would be lying if I said I thought they would crumbled like they did. THAT was a very plesant surprise!! :cool:

[-bdbd]

It seems to me that almost everyone is so focused on the new NC@CH talent - esp Barnes - that they are ignoring the drain of experience and talent from Chapel Hill at the end of last year. They lost three big players from their rotation, and one of them a star. And one key contributor this year is a brand new transfer. So it isn't a guarantee that they will be better. :confused:

I suspect most of us are generally thinking, "How the heck could a team with so much talent be any worse??!" I see them improved - not saying much given the .500 regular season finish last year - but the youth and chemistry adjustments will mean lots of ups and downs. They return to the NCAAT, but don't make it past the first weekend...:eek:

[MarkD83]

Put me in the camp that believes that, until he proves otherwise (which IMO is unlikely), good ole Roy cannot have a great (top 10) team unless he has a great (and fast) point guard.

I am also in this camp.

[NSDukeFan]

Put me in the camp that believes that, until he proves otherwise (which IMO is unlikely), good ole Roy cannot have a great (top 10) team unless he has a great (and fast) point guard.

Would you also be in the camp that says coach K cannot have a great (top 10) team unless he has a great (and smart) point guard or point forward?

I agree Roy did a poor job adjusting to last year's team's strengths and didn't help mold the team as well as he should have and it was a disaster. But I think this not having a such and such point guard is a myth that has been repeated too much. Every coach does better with more talented players. Yes, coach K is a better coach and may be able to adjust his strategies better to match his personnel, but Roy is also a hall of fame coach who had a terrible year last year. I don't believe that should overshadow the fact he has won with many different point guards. As far as I could tell, with some quick research, here are the point guards (I included Grant for the year he took the team to the finals) for the top 10 teams that coach K has had and Roy has had.

Coach K: Amaker, Snyder, Hurley, Wojo, Avery, Williams, G. Hill (Jeff Capel), Chris Duhon, Greg Paulus, Jon Scheyer

Ol' Roy: Adonis Jordan, Kevin Pritchard, Jacques Vaughn, Ryan Robertson, Kirk Hinrich, Aaron Miles, Ray Felton, Ty Lawson

Surprise, surprise, top 10 teams have had very good point guards. Both coaches have had many different point guards lead top 10 teams and I expect that will continue.

[BD80]

Would you also be in the camp that says coach K cannot have a great (top 10) team unless he has a great (and smart) point guard or point forward?

I agree Roy did a poor job adjusting to last year's team's strengths and didn't help mold the team as well as he should have and it was a disaster. But I think this not having a such and such point guard is a myth that has been repeated too much. Every coach does better with more talented players. Yes, coach K is a better coach and may be able to adjust his strategies better to match his personnel, but Roy is also a hall of fame coach who had a terrible year last year. I don't believe that should overshadow the fact he has won with many different point guards. As far as I could tell, with some quick research, here are the point guards (I included Grant for the year he took the team to the finals) for the top 10 teams that coach K has had and Roy has had.

Coach K: Amaker, Snyder, Hurley, Wojo, Avery, Williams, G. Hill (Jeff Capel), Chris Duhon, Greg Paulus, Jon Scheyer

Ol' Roy: Adonis Jordan, Kevin Pritchard, Jacques Vaughn, Ryan Robertson, Kirk Hinrich, Aaron Miles, Ray Felton, Ty Lawson

Surprise, surprise, top 10 teams have had very good point guards. Both coaches have had many different point guards lead top 10 teams and I expect that will continue.

I seriously doubt ol' roy would have does as well a Coach K did with Snyder, Wojo, Capel, Paulus or Scheyer at the point.

Let's say that ol' roy needs an NBA level talent at point to succeed.

[DukeBlueNV]

I dont have a link yet but my friend at work who is a huge UNC fan just told me Will Graves just got kicked off the team! I'll edit a link into my post when I find it.

EDIT:

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100710aab.html

[dukelifer]

Posted this in the UNC next year thread but thought it would get more attention with it's own thread.

Link:
http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100710aab.html

Unfortunately- this probably helps UNC. Graves was good at causing disruptions and bad attitudes in the locker room. Now Roy will hve one less bad attitude to deal with.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Posted this in the UNC next year thread but thought it would get more attention with it's own thread.

Link:
http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100710aab.html

Not alot of answers there........

[El_Diablo]

Roy said he needed to get his weight under 240 to remain on the team. Maybe he came up a little short?

[Kedsy]

So, the guy who was either going to be taking minutes from the young future stars or losing minutes and grumbling about it is dismissed from the team just before the start of practice? Seems pretty convenient, don't you think?

[Duvall]

Unfortunately- this probably helps UNC. Graves was good at causing disruptions and bad attitudes in the locker room. Now Roy will hve one less bad attitude to deal with.

There's basically no chance of that. UNC's frontcourt rotation was already limited, and this deprives them of a guy that could play a couple of positions there. It also takes away one of their few returning players that has shown some ability to put the ball (or even near) the basket.

This will hurt them.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Roy said he needed to get his weight under 240 to remain on the team. Maybe he came up a little short?

But Roy said "I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he's been in years"

hmmm.....

[devildad12]

Just reported by Jeff Goodman of Fox Sports

[mattman91]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1009760.html I was just about to post this. Wow, does it get any better?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Just reported by Jeff Goodman of Fox Sports
Link?

Edit..Nevermind..saw Mattman's link.

[Bob Green]

Link?

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100710aab.html

[RoyalBlue08]

But Roy said "I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he's been in years"

hmmm.....

Well, if it's not that he is out of shape, and I can't see how it could have anything to do with grades if the semester is only a month old; what other team rules are there in the off season?

[roywhite]

Well, if it's not that he is out of shape, and I can't see how it could have anything to do with grades if the semester is only a month old; what other team rules are there in the off season?

Maybe some personal behavior issues? Alcohol, drugs, violent behavior---could be all sorts of things. Probably won't hear anything specific officially.

[monkey]

Maybe some personal behavior issues? Alcohol, drugs, violent behavior---could be all sorts of things. Probably won't hear anything specific officially.

Not sure what the violation is or was - but I will say this ... Roy just earned himself some brownie points in my book - kicking a guy off your team when your front court is already thin shows a commitment to discipline and long term goals that not all programs or coaches would exhibit.

[Greg_Newton]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1009760.html I was just about to post this. Wow, does it get any better?

From the article, it certainly sounds like an academic issue, rather than a decision Roy made.


“This is 100 percent not related to any NCAA matters on campus,” says head coach Roy Williams. “I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he’s been in years, but he did not do everything he needed to do to be a part of our basketball program. This is a huge blow to our team, but an even bigger blow for Will. Playing for the Tar Heels meant so much to him."

The bolded sentence is also quite interesting. I tend to take him at his word, but it's interesting he felt the need to bring that up.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Maybe some personal behavior issues? Alcohol, drugs, violent behavior---could be all sorts of things. Probably won't hear anything specific officially.
I doubt it's violence related..we'd hear about that. The others are possible. Either way, as much as it pains me to say it, you gotta give Ol' Roy points for doing it. It shows that no player is above the team, and that he's willing to take that action if needed. K's done it, Cut has done it...Butch should have done it.

edit...just saw Monkey's post..happy to see someone else is willing to hand out some "kudos".

[Greg_Newton]

While this may ultimately help avoid a chemistry issue and ease the transition into "Barnes' Team"... it certainly hurts them in 2 big ways:

1. He was effectively their backup PF - after Knox, he was probably next in line to spell Zeller/Henson. This makes their frontline even thinner, and may end up in Barnes spending some time in the post. It also means they don't really have a backup SF, unless you count 6'4 reserve McDonald.

2. He was a 5th-year senior returning starter. For all we make fun of him, he was THE veteran on the team. Now, aside from Knox, their only upperclassmen are Jrs. Drew, Zeller and Watts, none of which are particularly proven or have "veteran leader" written all over them - only Zeller has really received meaningful minutes on a non-awful UNC team, and even he missed most of their championship year.

3. He was their leading returning scorer. They had already lost numbers 1 and 2, now number 3 is gone as well. They are losing 55% of their scoring and 71% of their rebounding off of last year's NIT team (thanks to Lhysjulien on TDD)... let that sink in for a minute!

Honestly, UNC might be better off going small and playing a helter-skelter pace. If not, their bench will consist of Knox and a bunch of 6'3-6'4 players, none of which are really equipped to play SF in the ACC.

[DevilHorns]

I doubt it's violence related..we'd hear about that. The others are possible. Either way, as much as it pains me to say it, you gotta give Ol' Roy points for doing it. It shows that no player is above the team, and that he's willing to take that action if needed. K's done it, Cut has done it...Butch should have done it.

edit...just saw Monkey's post..happy to see someone else is willing to hand out some "kudos".

When has K had to do it? I can't remember anybody in recent history.

[CameronBornAndBred]

When has K had to do it? I can't remember anybody in recent history.
Luckily it's been a long time, and I don't think he's booted anyone off permanently...but he has done it for academic reasons (happily his only reason to do so). I should have clarified.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Not sure what the violation is or was - but I will say this ... Roy just earned himself some brownie points in my book - kicking a guy off your team when your front court is already thin shows a commitment to discipline and long term goals that not all programs or coaches would exhibit.

Maybe, just maybe, he didn't want to wear a dress at "Late Night With Roy!"

:)

[monkey]

Luckily it's been a long time, and I don't think he's booted anyone off permanently...but he has done it for academic reasons (happily his only reason to do so). I should have clarified.

Didn't Newton get kicked off the team?

[sandinmyshoes]

While many on this board were dismissive of him, the young man was strong and a good shooter, so this will hurt them. I think perhaps even more it will hurt because he was one of those in state kids who evidently dreamed of playing for UNC, and as a fifth year senior could have injected some passion for the program into the team. I've heard he was also very effective as a host during recruiting visits. So it looks to me that this could affect them much more than just losing what he might have brought to the court as a player.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Didn't Newton get kicked off the team?
Academics. He cheated. He was suspended, and then served his out his career as an inaugral member ok K's doghouse. But he is a good example of K making a good example.

[Bluedevil114]

Luckily it's been a long time, and I don't think he's booted anyone off permanently...but he has done it for academic reasons (happily his only reason to do so). I should have clarified.

Reggie Love was suspended from the team but later was allowed back to play for the team.

[hurleyfor3]

Reminder, folks: No spreading rumors from other fan sites. Credible media outlets only. If we don't know the reason, we don't know the reason. Thanks.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Reggie Love was suspended from the team but later was allowed back to play for the team.
There were others as well I think. I wish I could remember the name, but I think one of the guys never came back due to academics. Newton (even though he furnished the Doghouse) finished his career with decent mpg and ppg.
http://www.dukeupdate.com/Alumni/greg_newton.htm

[-jk]

There are all sorts of things it could be, but we won't know unless someone in a position wants us to.

Let's take it easy on the speculation.

-jk

[Greg_Newton]

Maybe too much PT. With the exception of Larry Angeles, every UNC player will be playing the longest season of his life next year. How much will they have left in the tank by March?

Plus, there's the I-word. Zeller and Henson will be playing 30+ mpg most nights - one of them pretty much has to be in the game at all times, and there's a pretty big drop-off if even one of them subs out. But they also really need to have at least one of Barnes and Bullock in at all times - Strickland and McDonald just going to be able to guard and rebound with ACC 3's. And THEN throw in the fact than Barnes/Bullock will probably have to play a significant amount of PF, and they REALLY can't come out.

So basically, they have four players to whom an injury would be crippling and will have to play major, major minutes all season. Duke pulled it off with three of their guys this year, but can Carolina be as lucky?

[hurleyfor3]

Luckily it's been a long time, and I don't think he's booted anyone off permanently...but he has done it for academic reasons (happily his only reason to do so). I should have clarified.

Joe Cook was off the team after his third year of eligibility in 1990, but I believe it was because he failed out (administrative decision by the University) rather than Coach actively kicking him out. I doubt Coach got in the way of it, though.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Joe Cook was off the team after his third year of eligibility in 1990, but I believe it was because he failed out (administrative decision by the University) rather than Coach actively kicking him out. I doubt Coach got in the way of it, though.

Ricky Price? I remember he ran into some academic issues but I can't remember if he ever finished out his career at Duke.

[Lord Ash]

You know what is funny? I'm pretty sure Carolina will be absolutely fine this year. They won't get any big injury to worry about, Barnes will put up 22 or 24 a game as the primary AND secondary option, Reggie will be be a really nice compliment who is a matchup nightmare at 6'7, Henson and Zeller will both bloom and produce what has been expected of them, and their three headed PGs will play well enough to keep them viable.

I really feel like Carolina will be fine.

[CDu]

Ricky Price? I remember he ran into some academic issues but I can't remember if he ever finished out his career at Duke.

Price was suspended for the first semester of his senior season, but he did return to the team. His role upon return was minimal (he averaged about 8mpg). That was the 1997-1998 team that was among the deepest in Duke history (if not the deepest). Price was competing for minutes on the wing with Langdon, Avery (who also played some PG), Carrawell, Chappell, and Battier (who also played some PF).

[-bdbd]

Joe Cook was off the team after his third year of eligibility in 1990, but I believe it was because he failed out (administrative decision by the University) rather than Coach actively kicking him out. I doubt Coach got in the way of it, though.

I do remember Cook having academic issues and missing time. Price? Maybe so. I know there were a couple other rumored to be "having problems" as an explanation why they missed a game or two here or there, or came close to missing real time. Avery maybe?

Certainly our football team in the recent past had a projected starting QB suspended for Academics (cheating) in a year that we were particularly thin at that position.

This really puts UNC in a bind. If there are any front-court injuries or foul trouble, then they are in deep kemche. I think this will impact the style of play fromthe get-go. The interior D will probably have to be a little more careful about fouling (read "less aggressive"), and while going "helter skelter" makes sense from a three-guard-lineup perspective, it would on the other hand make it hard for the bigs to keep up (as they won't get the usual amount of in-game breathers). Sorta a catch-22 here for 'ole Roy. Good thing for him he's so well known for adapting his game to match the personnel on hand...


:eek:
(snicker, snicker)

[BlueThru&Thru]

You know what is funny? I'm pretty sure Carolina will be absolutely fine this year. They won't get any big injury to worry about, Barnes will put up 22 or 24 a game as the primary AND secondary option, Reggie will be be a really nice compliment who is a matchup nightmare at 6'7, Henson and Zeller will both bloom and produce what has been expected of them, and their three headed PGs will play well enough to keep them viable.

I really feel like Carolina will be fine.

I agree. Better that WG's time be given to developing young talent

[Greg_Newton]

You know what is funny? I'm pretty sure Carolina will be absolutely fine this year. They won't get any big injury to worry about, Barnes will put up 22 or 24 a game as the primary AND secondary option, Reggie will be be a really nice compliment who is a matchup nightmare at 6'7, Henson and Zeller will both bloom and produce what has been expected of them, and their three headed PGs will play well enough to keep them viable.

I really feel like Carolina will be fine.

... or Zeller could miss significant time like he always has, Bullock could be limited to shooting and finishing and be a defensive liability as a frosh, their PGs could fail to consistently initiate offense, Henson could constantly be in foul trouble, Knox could not be an ACC-quality player, HB could averaged 17 on 35% shooting because coaches gameplan to stop him, Roy could fail to adjust to his personnel, a few losses could lead to confidence and chemistry issues on an underclassmen-dominated team, their fans could turn on them, and they could end up worse than last year.

I'm not saying that to be facetious, it really could go either way. I'm not sure I can remember a team who's best case and worst case scenarios were as wildly different as 2010-2011 UNC's.

[CLT Devil]

...as the saga plays out about the Football team and their conduct it was funny to read Roy's comments on how it was "100%" not related to the NCAA investigation. I wonder for how long a coach of any sport at UNC-CHeaters will have to declare the same after kicking a player off a team for whatever reason. Many years to come I could only hope...rough time to be a 'Heel.

[hurleyfor3]

I do remember Cook having academic issues and missing time. Price? Maybe so. I know there were a couple other rumored to be "having problems" as an explanation why they missed a game or two here or there, or came close to missing real time. Avery maybe?


I want to say Kenny Blakeney missed a semester at some point, but don't remember the specifics, and do believe he eventually graduated.

[Lord Ash]

... or Zeller could miss significant time like he always has, Bullock could be limited to shooting and finishing and be a defensive liability as a frosh, their PGs could fail to consistently initiate offense, Henson could constantly be in foul trouble, Knox could not be an ACC-quality player, HB could averaged 17 on 35% shooting because coaches gameplan to stop him, Roy could fail to adjust to his personnel, a few losses could lead to confidence and chemistry issues on an underclassmen-dominated team, their fans could turn on them, and they could end up worse than last year.

I'm not saying that to be facetious, it really could go either way. I'm not sure I can remember a team who's best case and worst case scenarios were as wildly different as 2010-2011 UNC's.

Oh, I agree that is possible; I am just going with a bit of gut feeling, and the ideas of what all of the players potentials were considered... Barnes is really considered an otherworldly talent, Zeller and Henson are both guys who have been spoken VERY highly of, Bullock was a serious scorer in high school, and quite frankly I've always thought all three of UNCs PGs have some potential. I agree that either/or is possible, as well as an in-between... maybe I am just a pessimist!

Oh, and I believe Kenny B had to sit out a semester because the athletic department was out of knee socks. As soon as they got a shipment in he was back in the game.

[Duvall]

I agree. Better that WG's time be given to developing young talent

The problem is that the developing young talent was already going to get plenty of playing time. Graves' departure means that either the developing young talent will be run into the ground (and freshmen *can* be run into the ground), or that his playing time will go to the likes of Strickland and McDonald.

Either way, it's bad news for UNC.

[DevilHorns]

You know what is funny? I'm pretty sure Carolina will be absolutely fine this year. They won't get any big injury to worry about, Barnes will put up 22 or 24 a game as the primary AND secondary option, Reggie will be be a really nice compliment who is a matchup nightmare at 6'7, Henson and Zeller will both bloom and produce what has been expected of them, and their three headed PGs will play well enough to keep them viable.

I really feel like Carolina will be fine.

Ultimatelord :P

I sincerely disagree. They need the depth. If they have any problems with even minor injuries they'll be running short on fuel in the tank. Harrison now has this much more pressure. I think he'll put up a 20+ clip in non-ACC warm-ups but his ppg will be probably high-teens (I would argue that if they require him to score that much then they'll realllllly struggle).

Wow now the Where twins leaving really stings. This Knox fella better have some game.

[Duvall]

Ultimatelord :P

I sincerely disagree. They need the depth. If they have any problems with even minor injuries they'll be running short on fuel in the tank.

I actually think the Heels needs to start worrying about running out of fuel even if they manage to stay healthy all year. Two of their top four players will be freshman jumpshooters playing ~30 mpg all year out of necessity - they *will* hit the rookie wall, and it will hurt.


Wow now the Where twins leaving really stings. This Knox fella better have some game.

He don't. His only skill is the ability to give a team 20 mpg without getting into foul trouble, which isn't nothing, but the Heels will need more.

[ACCBBallFan]

While this may ultimately help avoid a chemistry issue and ease the transition into "Barnes' Team"... it certainly hurts them in 2 big ways:

1. He was effectively their backup PF - after Knox, he was probably next in line to spell Zeller/Henson. This makes their frontline even thinner, and may end up in Barnes spending some time in the post. It also means they don't really have a backup SF, unless you count 6'4 reserve McDonald.

2. He was a 5th-year senior returning starter. For all we make fun of him, he was THE veteran on the team. Now, aside from Knox, their only upperclassmen are Jrs. Drew, Zeller and Watts, none of which are particularly proven or have "veteran leader" written all over them - only Zeller has really received meaningful minutes on a non-awful UNC team, and even he missed most of their championship year.

3. He was their leading returning scorer. They had already lost numbers 1 and 2, now number 3 is gone as well. They are losing 55% of their scoring and 71% of their rebounding off of last year's NIT team (thanks to Lhysjulien on TDD)... let that sink in for a minute!

Honestly, UNC might be better off going small and playing a helter-skelter pace. If not, their bench will consist of Knox and a bunch of 6'3-6'4 players, none of which are really equipped to play SF in the ACC.Exactly right.

The small list of candidates for captain just went down one to Knox the senior who has never played in ACC and Drew II and Zeller who though technically juniors are each effectively sophs from a PT experience perspective.

But your point is even more key.

To be effective UNC needs two shooters on the floor as we saw what happened with only Graves last year. The most likely guys would be Barnes and Bullock whose heights at WF/SG would also make up for Henson's lack of bulk at PF.

But the then starters

Zeller - Henson - Barnes - Bullock - Drew II or whoever

would not be challenged at all by a practice lineup without Graves:

Knox - Watts at PF? - McDonald at WF? - Strickland - Marshall.

It would be a glorified shooting drill with no development for Henson or Barnes, okay for Bullock and for Zeller.

So almost have to hope someone else besides Bullock can shoot a lick at SG be that McDonald, Strickland, or Drew II with Kendall Marshall or one of Drew II/Strickland at PG.

The one thing it does do is enable coach Williams to have two ball handlers on floor and to alternate Barnes and Bullock at WF. When Barnes is inevitably forced to play PF, Bullock almost has to be the WF on floor with him which gives UNC two shooters.

But to practice one lineup and play another is counter productive.

My guess for most even Late Night with Roy Blue-White

Zeller vs. Knox

Henson vs. Barnes

Watts vs. Bullock a huge mismatch so load the left side team

Strickland vs. McDonald

Marshall vs. Drew II to give the two frosh a more experienced PG,

[sdotbarbee]

I actually think the Heels needs to start worrying about running out of fuel even if they manage to stay healthy all year. Two of their top four players will be freshman jumpshooters playing ~30 mpg all year out of necessity - they *will* hit the rookie wall, and it will hurt.



He don't. His only skill is the ability to give a team 20 mpg without getting into foul trouble, which isn't nothing, but the Heels will need more.

What, come on in his 20 minutes per game last year in a very good SEC:rolleyes: he averaged 6ppg and 3.7rpg. This guy is a joke, he is there to help give Zeller a breather and if Zeller goes down with an injury it could really be trouble for the heels.

[jipops]

It is quite possible that the loss of Graves could be addition by subtraction for UNC. They already have a ton of perimeter shooting available and Will wasn't going to provide any help on the defensive end.

[ice-9]

I do remember Cook having academic issues and missing time. Price? Maybe so. I know there were a couple other rumored to be "having problems" as an explanation why they missed a game or two here or there, or came close to missing real time. Avery maybe?

Wasn't Andre Sweet another guy who couldn't play because of academics?

[Duvall]

It is quite possible that the loss of Graves could be addition by subtraction for UNC. They already have a ton of perimeter shooting available...

Where? Presumably Barnes and Bullock will help, though neither has hit a single college basket yet. Aside from them, who? With Graves gone, Drew II leads all returning Heels in 3FG with a cool .352 mark. Duke has three returning players that bested that mark last year.

Plus, and this cannot be stressed enough, the UNC bench will now consist of Justin Knox and four small guards. They won't have any help for their frontcourt all year.

This is subtraction by subtraction.

[SupaDave]

I'm of the opinion that they will be fine. Not really good, not great, but fine and still very much improved from last year.

If memory serves me correctly one of the last times that UNC was short-handed they actually did look to the football team. That kid's name was Julius Peppers. FWIW, they do currently have a couple of very capable basketball players on their football team (and it's not a bad time to jump ship).

[roywhite]

Where? Presumably Barnes and Bullock will help, though neither has hit a single college basket yet. Aside from them, who? With Graves gone, Drew II leads all returning Heels in 3FG with a cool .352 mark. Duke has three returning players that bested that mark last year.

Plus, and this cannot be stressed enough, the UNC bench will now consist of Justin Knox and four small guards. They won't have any help for their frontcourt all year.

This is subtraction by subtraction.

Yep, smallball can work sometimes. However, it requires good defensive pressure on the perimeter, multiple good outside shooters, good ball movement, and quality depth to sustain a fast pace. UNC really had none of that last year, but somehow will be strong in all those areas this year?

[dukelifer]

Where? Presumably Barnes and Bullock will help, though neither has hit a single college basket yet. Aside from them, who? With Graves gone, Drew II leads all returning Heels in 3FG with a cool .352 mark. Duke has three returning players that bested that mark last year.

Plus, and this cannot be stressed enough, the UNC bench will now consist of Justin Knox and four small guards. They won't have any help for their frontcourt all year.

This is subtraction by subtraction.

Barnes will be able to spell guys as will Knox and Bullock is like Graves- a big shooter who can go inside. Carolina is not very experienced up front but they have possibilities. But when Zeller goes down with some injury- and we know he will- then it gets dicey.

[sdotbarbee]

Where? Presumably Barnes and Bullock will help, though neither has hit a single college basket yet. Aside from them, who? With Graves gone, Drew II leads all returning Heels in 3FG with a cool .352 mark. Duke has three returning players that bested that mark last year.

Plus, and this cannot be stressed enough, the UNC bench will now consist of Justin Knox and four small guards. They won't have any help for their frontcourt all year.

This is subtraction by subtraction.

We can't forget Strickland filling it up from behind the arc shooting 23% and McDonald breaking into the 20's at 21%.

[sdotbarbee]

Barnes will be able to spell guys as will Knox and Bullock is like Graves- a big shooter who can go inside. Carolina is not very experienced up front but they have possibilities. But when Zeller goes down with some injury- and we know he will- then it gets dicey.

They might be the same height but are far from the same "size". Graves is 6'6" 240lbs and Bullock is 6'6" 195lbs, that is a huge difference when you are inside trying to bang around.

[Acymetric]

I'm of the opinion that they will be fine. Not really good, not great, but fine and still very much improved from last year.

If memory serves me correctly one of the last times that UNC was short-handed they actually did look to the football team. That kid's name was Julius Peppers. FWIW, they do currently have a couple of very capable basketball players on their football team (and it's not a bad time to jump ship).

If I was the coach no way I let a player from the football team near my team...what happens if it comes out late that a yet undiscovered player was involved, and its the guy now playing in basketball games. Don't give the scandal the chance to spread to other sports would be my take (assuming it hasn't already).

I realize this isn't the most likely scenario but it is possible and in my opinion way to big of a risk for Roy to take.

[Bob Green]

.....and if Zeller goes down with an injury it could really be trouble for the heels.

I do not understand the obsession some posters have connecting Zeller with injuries. All Duke fans should understand a player who has been held back by injuries can excel when healthy. Personally, I believe Zeller is a quality player who has the potential to have a breakout season.

[ACCBBallFan]

I'm of the opinion that they will be fine. Not really good, not great, but fine and still very much improved from last year.

If memory serves me correctly one of the last times that UNC was short-handed they actually did look to the football team. That kid's name was Julius Peppers. FWIW, they do currently have a couple of very capable basketball players on their football team (and it's not a bad time to jump ship).What might help UNC Basketball more than anything is if the tutor scandal forces the football team to not be bowl eloigible and they get some beef earlier than January for practice.

Game shape for Basketball is totally different than for Football, but need someone to practice against to toughen up Henson and Barnes while Knox pairs off with Zeller.

Bullock at 6'7" 190 perhaps up to 210 now is too small and would even need two of him to do the job.

On the other hand, wise warning here to not give NCAA any more reason to sniff around the basketball team


If I was the coach no way I let a player from the football team near my team...what happens if it comes out late that a yet undiscovered player was involved, and its the guy now playing in basketball games. Don't give the scandal the chance to spread to other sports would be my take (assuming it hasn't already).

I realize this isn't the most likely scenario but it is possible and in my opinion way to big of a risk for Roy to take.
If UNC runs as much as it will need to and has these guys playing 35 MPG, hard for Henson to retain his full 210 pounds.

[striker219]

I do not understand the obsession some posters have connecting Zeller with injuries. All Duke fans should understand a player who has been held back by injuries can excel when healthy. Personally, I believe Zeller is a quality player who has the potential to have a breakout season.

Come on now, I respect the mad pitchfork count, but when was the the last time that an injury prone 7 foot white guy who's last name starts with a Z helped to propel his team to a national championship?

[mattman91]

The really sad part about all of this is UNC has no walk-ons. After Knox the have NOBODY over 6'4 off the bench. They don't even have a guy like Todd Zafirovski to go with in practice. I remember back a few years ago when we were shallow inside we had Patrick Johnson who could come in a give us a big body down low. Wow, just a sad time to be a Tar Hole, but a GREAT time to be a Blue Devil!

[hurleyfor3]

Come on now, I respect the mad pitchfork count, but when was the the last time that an injury prone 7 foot white guy who's last name starts with a Z helped to propel his team to a national championship?

Serge Zwikker.. no wait...

[Olympic Fan]

like everyone else, I'd love to see UNC struggle again this season, but I honestly believe they will be much better -- indeed, I think they'll easily be the second best team ion ther ACC.

When I read this thread, it's like I'm reading Inside Carolina in reverse. Over there, all young Duke players will be disappointments or flops ... all the Duke guys that didn't explode as freshmen will never be any good ... and every Duke player that's struggled with injury will always be injured.

Isn't that what so many of you are saying about Carolina?

You dismiss Dexter Strickland and John Henson because they weren't instant stars. They dismiss Andre Dawkins and Ryan Kelly for the same reason. You guys snear at John Henson because he was a disappointment as a freshman -- his freshman numbers were VERY similar to Mason Plumlee's -- the pros think both of them have first-round potential.

Young guys get better, especially young guys with talent.

Then there is Harrison Barnes ... we love the accolades that the so-called experts have showered on Kyrie Irving (deserved IMHO), yet are skeptical when those same experts extol Barnes. He's the top prospect in the country for a reason. Yeah, sometimes the big-name prospects flop or are slow to development, but quite often they are instant impact guys -- from Durant to Wall to our own Kyle Singler.

It's true that UNC is vulnerable to frontcourt injuries, but everybody has their vulnerabilities -- how good will Virginia Tech be if Malcolm Delaney gets hurt?

Otherwise, I don't see a big issue with depth. They have Henson and Zeller to start in the post ... Knox will give them 20 minutes and five fouls as a backup ... Barnes can swing to the 4 if they need it (how often have we played with a similar player at four?). They have plenty of depth on the wings, even without Graves -- Barnes will get most of his time there, Bullock is a talent, Strickland is a talent, who ought to be better now that he doesn't have to work at point guard, Marshall is a player ... Drew ought to be better in his second year of starting at the point and by having Marshall to push him -- make no mistake, Marshall is a good player with great court vision. He might not be the jet Roy prefers at the point, but he is a better ballhandler and distributor than Drew.

I'm not saying they're going to return to the Final Four -- or be as good as Duke (they have nobody to match the combined talent and exsperience of Singler and Smith). But barring a run of unforseen problems and disappointments I think they will do very well.

Not as well as their delusional UNC fans think ... but better than some of our delusional fans think.

PS I was laughing at a thread on IC about how Duke won't have a three-man this year. Yeah, Duke has Kyle Singler, who's probably the best three man in the country, but he doesn't count, you see. Miles and Mason Plumlee are so foul-prone that they can only average 20 minutes a game each. Kelly will never be any good (since he wasn't any good as a freshman) and Hairston is a mediocre recruit who will only be able to play 5-10 minutes a game. That means that Kyle will have to play at the four all season, leaving a gap at the three ... and Andre Dawkins is too small to play there.

Viola! Duke doesn't have a three man.

It was funny ... but some of the speculation that I read in this thread is just as ill-informed.

As for Graves, he will be missed on the floor -- I have no idea whether his absence helps or hurts their chemisty. He had the bulk to help them in the post, although he's a more natural wing. He was their best 3-point shooter last year, but I think his prowess as a 3-point shooter is sometimes overstated -- he was a decent-but-not great 37.1 percent last year (Duke's top four 3-point shooters were all better than that last year ... and that doesn't count Miles Plumlee who was 100.0 percent from 30-point range ... on one attempt). That's almost exactly his career average.

[Deslok]

Right now, and it is definitely early and so purely speculation, but I think UNC will have its struggles this year. They are clearly more talented than they were, but the reliance on freshmen and the lack of depth will result in a stretch or two of poor performance. At the same time, they are talented enough that they will be capable of playing with anyone on a given night. The type of team that - and note, I'm not projected them into this spot, they will probably be higher - that might be an NCAA 8 seed, and the #1 seed in that region will not be happy at all about that fact.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Right now, and it is definitely early and so purely speculation, but I think UNC will have its struggles this year. They are clearly more talented than they were, but the reliance on freshmen and the lack of depth will result in a stretch or two of poor performance. At the same time, they are talented enough that they will be capable of playing with anyone on a given night. The type of team that - and note, I'm not projected them into this spot, they will probably be higher - that might be an NCAA 8 seed, and the #1 seed in that region will not be happy at all about that fact.

I feel the same way about UNC. They will be a very talented team (their starting 5 is probably top-5 in the country) and will be capable of beating any time. However, they will struggle against really good teams and really bad teams due to their inexperience and complete lack of depth.

I know it's early, but I see them as a 4-5 seed. The ACC is relatively weak this year and UNC may post a decent record.

[oldnavy]

A couple of issues:

Will Roy be able to mold this group of newcomers and vets into a TEAM? - He has had some difficulty doing this with past teams, but he has also had some success as well, so this is a 51:49 (51 in favor of him NOT molding the group into a team) proposition.

What about injuries? I agree with Bob in that past injuries do not automatically mean they will have future injuries, but UNC did seem to have an unusually high incident of foot and ankle problems over the past couple of years. Toss up, but you have to think that over the course of a season, someone will miss a stretch of games.

I suspect that UNC will have another 20 win season, and make the NCAA tournament, but I still want to see them play a few games before making any real predictions.

p.s. losing Will Graves does not help this team in my opinion. It just tells me that Roy is still struggling getting control over there and getting his players to do what he wants them to do... Maybe booting Graves will send an appropriate message and get the others on board....???

[MChambers]

... or Zeller could miss significant time like he always has, Bullock could be limited to shooting and finishing and be a defensive liability as a frosh, their PGs could fail to consistently initiate offense, Henson could constantly be in foul trouble, Knox could not be an ACC-quality player, HB could averaged 17 on 35% shooting because coaches gameplan to stop him, Roy could fail to adjust to his personnel, a few losses could lead to confidence and chemistry issues on an underclassmen-dominated team, their fans could turn on them, and they could end up worse than last year.

I'm not saying that to be facetious, it really could go either way. I'm not sure I can remember a team who's best case and worst case scenarios were as wildly different as 2010-2011 UNC's.

I'm with you. We should be optimistic!

[dukeballboy88]

I see them finishing around 4th in the acc cause they will win some they arent supposed to and lose some they are supposed to win as all young teams do. VA Tech will be better, MD will be better and I think FSU will be a lil better. But the ACC is down outside of Duke so eventhough VATech finishes 2nd I dont see them getting over a 4 seed in the dance. UNC will be around a 6 or 8th seed because double digit loses wont look good.

There main concern is PG play. can Roy adjust to his team instead of his team adjusting to roy?