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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 113 Gardner-Webb 68- Post Game Thread



BlueintheFace
12-15-2009, 08:56 PM
I mean, what can you really say?

Oriole Way
12-15-2009, 08:56 PM
Missed the game... what was the recepetion for Andre Dawkins like?

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2009, 08:58 PM
Just an outstanding team effort. I think we gave up a few too many points, but that's okay.

The end line-up with MP1, MP2, and R. Kelly on the floor was hilarious - it was a bunch of really tall, lanky guys jumping around - they must have gotten at least a half dozen tips and blocks in a couple of minutes.

Amazing!

BlueintheFace
12-15-2009, 08:58 PM
Andre got a large cheer.

Jon turned in an amazing performance that deserves recognition, regardless of opponent.

That behind the back pass..... wow

Hermy-own
12-15-2009, 08:58 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

Heelkiller1
12-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Outstanding game , every one played a solid game . although I would of liked to see Mason do a little bit more , but I guess he is still trying to catch up from missing all that time . All I want for Christmas is for us to beat the Holes like that to. lol

coldriver10
12-15-2009, 09:00 PM
Wow, when was the last time we put up 113? That was the best I've seen us play as a team in a very long time...I can't think of anyone who didn't have a good-great game. Mason and Miles in particular are looking good, though I agree Mason didn't play as much as I would have liked. It was great to see Zoubek play well as well.

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 09:01 PM
Nice to see Andre bounce back and have a good game after what he has gone through.

BlueintheFace
12-15-2009, 09:02 PM
I'm not saying this only because of the game tonight, but it certainly provides an opportunity:

Duke's ceiling may be higher with other post players down the line, fine. But Zoubek has been earning his minutes and then some.

proelitedota
12-15-2009, 09:03 PM
Zoubek has been playing quite unlike Zoubek of the old. :D

CameronCrazy'11
12-15-2009, 09:05 PM
Somebody start a MOTM poll so I can vote for Jon Scheyer
:)

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 09:05 PM
Did Casey Peters get in the game?

jipops
12-15-2009, 09:06 PM
If Scheyer had played the entire 40 minutes he would surely have had a triple double. A truly amazing performance, even if it was against weak competition. This guy is just such a skilled player in every single phase of the game.

Overall I felt like the defense was ok but was still lacking at times. Keeping in mind the team has been through exams, I did feel like our guys were slow to react on the rotations. This can't happen on Saturday.

Mason showed flashes of what we've been reading about. I really like how well he passes the ball. He is still figuring out his spots out there. It would be nice to see him hit the boards a bit harder. As can be expected from a freshman big, his helpside D needs work. This will come with experience of course.

JaMarcus Russell
12-15-2009, 09:07 PM
It was great to see Dawkins not miss a beat tonight. He played just like he had in the other games. Miles and Mason both got some more playing time than normal, and that will be helpful against a Gonzaga team that has some very good size and athleticism. Zoubek had a very nice performance tonight, but I think we need the Plumlees to step up on Saturday.

Scheyer had another great performance. He has definitely become the best player on this year's team. He is a great passer and leader. I wish Nolan and Singler would have the same level of unselfishness. Kelly is an awesome passer and can get some loose balls and rebounds, but on the defensive side he was a liability tonight. I don't think we will be seeing him in close games for that reason.

ETA: Casey Peters did get in the game in the last minute or so. Steve Johnson didn't play though. Is he sick or injured?

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 09:10 PM
It was great to see Dawkins not miss a beat tonight. He played just like he had in the other games. Miles and Mason both got some more playing time than normal, and that will be helpful against a Gonzaga team that has some very good size and athleticism. Zoubek had a very nice performance tonight, but I think we need the Plumlees to step up on Saturday.

Scheyer had another great performance. He has definitely become the best player on this year's team. He is a great passer and leader. I wish Nolan and Singler would have the same level of unselfishness. Kelly is an awesome passer and can get some loose balls and rebounds, but on the defensive side he was a liability tonight. I don't think we will be seeing him in close games for that reason.

ETA: Casey Peters did get in the game in the last minute or so. Steve Johnson didn't play though. Is he sick or injured?

I was wondering because Singler played a lot with that hurt ankle. I was wondering why he wasn't subbed out for Olek, or Johnson, or Peters to get some rest, especially against Gardner-Webb.

jipops
12-15-2009, 09:10 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

Really? K made an obvious effort to give all the bigs tons of burn. He especially had Kelly out there for quite a while probably because of how well Kelly was moving the ball on offense. There are only so many minutes in a game. I don't see how you could possibly quibble with the bigs' minutes tonight.

superdave
12-15-2009, 09:10 PM
Scheyer was nearly flawless. That's the best summary for tonight.

The Plumlees have some nice moves on the offensive end. If they can get up to speed on D (positioning, hedging, not fouling) it's going to be quite a sight.

I agree on zoubek - he is really earning his minutes in 2009-2010.

Saratoga2
12-15-2009, 09:12 PM
In general, this game was about getting the rust off after the exams and trying various combinations and individuals.

What came across loud and clear is that Scheyer was ready to play and had a great game. You can say the competition was less than normal, but his game was just outstanding.

On the other hand, Singler looked rusty and perhaps the sore ankle limited his ability, but his game improved in the second half.

Dawkins showed more versatility offensively and played under control.

Zoubek got off to a slow start but seemed to be more determined as the game continued along. He had an outstanding second part of the game.

The Plumlees and Kelly all looked good offensively and Smith showed some flashes of speed getting to the basket.

I supposed to be expected with so many inexperienced players on the floor and many different combinations, the defense look raggedy with lots of open players and easy baskets off of cuts. A game like this shows why Thomas is valuable on defense. Having experienced quick players in there can take away some of the easy baskets that were given away. Czyz was in for a brief interval and seemed lost on defense. Too bad the kid can't show more.

I think coach K got what he wanted in team building from this game and clearly the talent is there. Scheyer certainly looks like the key player on the team at this stage of the season.

grossbus
12-15-2009, 09:20 PM
when did singler hurt his ankle?

SMO
12-15-2009, 09:24 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

LOL!!! 5th post after a game that saw a 40+ point drubbing, career highs for Jon Scheyer, and an impressive return from Dawkins and someone brings up playing time for the Plumlees!!! LMAO!!! This forum is a trip.

riverside6
12-15-2009, 09:25 PM
Wow, when was the last time we put up 113?

11/9/2007 won 121-56 vs NCCU - Box Score (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_Game_Box_Score_External.asp?hGame=1050)

kmspeaks
12-15-2009, 09:34 PM
Did our guys have to hear any negativity in Cameron tonight? Because we all know a real coach would never allow that to happen. :p :D

Lord Ash
12-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

Hm, I am not sure if we were watching the same game... Miles got a bunch of minutes and played well, scoring 13 on 6 of 8 shooting, and Mason got some as well, or as many as you would expect given how well Zoubek (13 points, 8 rebounds, and only ONE foul!!) and Miles played. I saw little to indicate either guy would lose their minutes.

Actually, speaking of Miles... that flat-footed power slam he threw down that Len Elmore got all worked up over was FIERCE. A very, very powerful dunk for coming from a standstill, I thought!

I have to say... I loved seeing Ryan play, and I honestly think he is the best on the team (for the amount of time he gets) at looking for/feeding the bigs... but holy cow he has a ferociously awkward shot. I know he is known as a shooter and won the 3 contest with McD, but yikes... his body looks off balance, and his release looks so awkward...

Good all around game. Can't wait until Gonzaga. Really enjoy this team!

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 09:41 PM
Hm, I am not sure if we were watching the same game... Miles got a bunch of minutes and played well, scoring 13 on 6 of 8 shooting, and Mason got some as well, or as many as you would expect given how well Zoubek (13 points, 8 rebounds, and only ONE foul!!) and Miles played. I saw little to indicate either guy would lose their minutes.

Actually, speaking of Miles... that flat-footed power slam he threw down that Len Elmore got all worked up over was FIERCE. A very, very powerful dunk for coming from a standstill, I thought!

I have to say... I loved seeing Ryan play, and I honestly think he is the best on the team (for the amount of time he gets) at looking for/feeding the bigs... but holy cow he has a ferociously awkward shot. I know he is known as a shooter and won the 3 contest with McD, but yikes... his body looks off balance, and his release looks so awkward...

Good all around game. Can't wait until Gonzaga. Really enjoy this team!

Speaking of that dunk, I wonder what everyone's take is on whether Miles was taunting or not. It didn't look to bad to me, it wasn't like he got right in their face, he just reacted stronger than usual which isn't bad in my opinion.

Kedsy
12-15-2009, 09:44 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

Miles had 19 minutes, the same as Lance. Mason had 15 minutes, the same as Z. Ryan had 20 minutes. Not sure exactly what you were hoping for, minutes-wise.

Regarding on-court achievement during their playing time, the two Plumlees combined for 34 minutes, 19 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 blocks, and a steal. I agree they should get more rebounds, but that's a pretty good line for 34 minutes.

While Mason did look a bit hesitant at times and was out of position a couple times on defense, overall I was very impressed with his game. He's going to be a star for us before he leaves, and personally I think there's very little chance of either he or his brother falling out of the rotation.

Lord Ash
12-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Eh, didn't seem like much, considering we have no idea what happened before or after, and no idea what was said.

Man. I feel like that was one of the more powerful flat-footed dunks I've seen at Duke. Am I crazy?

Did Ryan really have 20? That doesn't feel right... maybe it was a lot of fourth quarter minutes?

ccrazies_708
12-15-2009, 09:48 PM
Speaking of that dunk, I wonder what everyone's take is on whether Miles was taunting or not. It didn't look to bad to me, it wasn't like he got right in their face, he just reacted stronger than usual which isn't bad in my opinion.

To me, it almost seemed like that phantom tech G got last year at VT. Maybe he did say something, maybe he didn't. Besides, as we all know, there are more imposing things that can happen at basketball games to hurt somebody's feelings. Just ask Roy.:D

JBDuke
12-15-2009, 09:49 PM
...
Did Ryan really have 20? That doesn't feel right... maybe it was a lot of fourth quarter minutes?

Fourth quarter? What game were YOU watching?

devilboomer
12-15-2009, 09:52 PM
Speaking of that dunk, I wonder what everyone's take is on whether Miles was taunting or not. It didn't look to bad to me, it wasn't like he got right in their face, he just reacted stronger than usual which isn't bad in my opinion.

Miles was definitely jawing. The Flitner kid must have said something to him.

During the Charlotte game, Dawkins was jawing with Spears -- a Senior transfer from BC.

Singler taunts a lot, too.

I personally like it. Helps change our soft, charge-taking image.

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 09:58 PM
Miles was definitely jawing. The Flitner kid must have said something to him.

During the Charlotte game, Dawkins was jawing with Spears -- a Senior transfer from BC.

Singler taunts a lot, too.

I personally like it. Helps change our soft, charge-taking image.

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Everything is so PC now days and all celebration and trash talking seems to be discouraged.

Acymetric
12-15-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm not saying this only because of the game tonight, but it certainly provides an opportunity:

Duke's ceiling may be higher with other post players down the line, fine. But Zoubek has been earning his minutes and then some.

This. Can we please put the idea that Z shouldn't get minutes to bed?

I think we also saw that Olek is (justifiably) probably somewhere between 12th and 14th man off the bench, which is ok. He's a project, and I would expect him to contribute some next year, or maybe even not until his senior year.

I was overall pleased with the game. We looked a little sloppy at times, but what I saw from Z, the Plumlees, Lance, and Kelly has me feeling pretty good. Hopefully they all take that confidence with them to bigger games. Everyone played aggressive, and Lance hit the longest possible shot he could take without it being a 3.

I'm gonna miss the game on Saturday unfortunately, but hopefully it'll be a game that I can feel good about watching if I get a recording of it.

Oh. One more thing...Jon Scheyer. I always bought in to Jumbo's assertion that he could make it in the NBA...are the doubters starting to come around yet?

uh_no
12-15-2009, 10:07 PM
This. Can we please put the idea that Z shouldn't get minutes to bed?

I think we also saw that Olek is (justifiably) probably somewhere between 12th and 14th man off the bench, which is ok. He's a project, and I would expect him to contribute some next year, or maybe even not until his senior year.

I was overall pleased with the game. We looked a little sloppy at times, but what I saw from Z, the Plumlees, Lance, and Kelly has me feeling pretty good. Hopefully they all take that confidence with them to bigger games. Everyone played aggressive, and Lance hit the longest possible shot he could take without it being a 3.

I'm gonna miss the game on Saturday unfortunately, but hopefully it'll be a game that I can feel good about watching if I get a recording of it.

Oh. One more thing...Jon Scheyer. I always bought in to Jumbo's assertion that he could make it in the NBA...are the doubters starting to come around yet?


Nothing from this game will put anything to bed....gardner webb is one of the worst teams in all of DI.....

RainingThrees
12-15-2009, 10:08 PM
This. Can we please put the idea that Z shouldn't get minutes to bed?

I think we also saw that Olek is (justifiably) probably somewhere between 12th and 14th man off the bench, which is ok. He's a project, and I would expect him to contribute some next year, or maybe even not until his senior year.

I was overall pleased with the game. We looked a little sloppy at times, but what I saw from Z, the Plumlees, Lance, and Kelly has me feeling pretty good. Hopefully they all take that confidence with them to bigger games. Everyone played aggressive, and Lance hit the longest possible shot he could take without it being a 3.

I'm gonna miss the game on Saturday unfortunately, but hopefully it'll be a game that I can feel good about watching if I get a recording of it.

Oh. One more thing...Jon Scheyer. I always bought in to Jumbo's assertion that he could make it in the NBA...are the doubters starting to come around yet?

The question is not will he make it into the nba, the question is what position? 1 or 2. I don't think he has the speed to play the 1 so I think he'll be a combo 2 that shares ball handling duties, especially in the half court.

BlueintheFace
12-15-2009, 10:15 PM
Nothing from this game will put anything to bed....gardner webb is one of the worst teams in all of DI.....

You missed the point. It isn't about the GW game.

jipops
12-15-2009, 10:16 PM
Oh. One more thing...Jon Scheyer. I always bought in to Jumbo's assertion that he could make it in the NBA...are the doubters starting to come around yet?

Wherever he's picked, it will be a steal. There aren't that many guys in the game today who are 6-5 and can truly play either guard position. This could help him as there are a surplus of guards out there. Realistically, I think he has potential for a long productive career as a reserve guard. If you compare him to Ellington who was a 1st rounder, it is difficult to see how he could not be picked up. Today he looked like a small version of Dunleavy.

BlueintheFace
12-15-2009, 10:18 PM
One more thing...Jon Scheyer. I always bought in to Jumbo's assertion that he could make it in the NBA...are the doubters starting to come around yet?

No, but it has less to do with Jon than it does with the NBA.

ChicagoCrazy84
12-15-2009, 10:23 PM
The question is not will he make it into the nba, the question is what position? 1 or 2. I don't think he has the speed to play the 1 so I think he'll be a combo 2 that shares ball handling duties, especially in the half court.


Absolutely, there is no way he can play the 1 in the NBA, but definitely as a combo guard or 2 guard. He just needs to bulk up a little. He has the size, the athleticism, and the IQ. Playing the PG this year will actually help his draft stock because scouts will see he can manage the game, play D on quicker players, and still get involved on offense. Scheyer might not be a 1st round pick, but he will be drafted.

Dukeface88
12-15-2009, 10:23 PM
Nothing from this game will put anything to bed....gardner webb is one of the worst teams in all of DI.....

If not this game, how about the rest of the season? He's averaging 16 points and 20 boards per 40 minutes. We can't play him more due to foul issues, but there's been no reason this year to play him less.

roywhite
12-15-2009, 10:23 PM
Nothing from this game will put anything to bed....gardner webb is one of the worst teams in all of DI.....

Gardner Webb is not a great team, nor even a good one, true. But they played UNC in Chapel Hill less than a month ago, and gave them some trouble, hitting a bunch of 3-pointers. It was close for a good part of the first half, and ended up 93-72.

There were lessons to be learned tonight, and plenty to appreciate.

geraldsneighbor
12-15-2009, 10:28 PM
Apparently we talked a lot of trash tonight. How annoying was Len Smellmore tonight?

But really nothing negative tonight. Kyle got going after a slow start so that was good. Jon was Jon. Bigs looked good. It went as well as it could have gone tonight.

Kedsy
12-15-2009, 10:32 PM
Jon was Jon.

If you have by far the best game of your career, is it right to simply describe you as yourself?

roywhite
12-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Apparently we talked a lot of trash tonight. How annoying was Len Smellmore tonight?

But really nothing negative tonight. Kyle got going after a slow start so that was good. Jon was Jon. Bigs looked good. It went as well as it could have gone tonight.

Yep, hoops is back after 10 days and the Blue Devils looked good. And great to see Andre get into the flow of the game and perform well, after a tragic period in his young life.

Len Elmore can be worse; he frequently is.

Jon was Jon? He was Super-Jon!

ChicagoCrazy84
12-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Nothing from this game will put anything to bed....gardner webb is one of the worst teams in all of DI.....


I think these guys might be a tad worse.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/clubhouse?teamId=292

Or

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/clubhouse?teamId=50

Or even

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/clubhouse?teamId=2803

camion
12-15-2009, 10:46 PM
Did our guys have to hear any negativity in Cameron tonight? Because we all know a real coach would never allow that to happen. :p :D

Elmore was part of the announcing team. :eek:

K should have ordered a preemptive banishment to save the listeners at home mental anguish.

Jumbo
12-15-2009, 10:46 PM
Here is what the discussion can focus on: Did we see anything from the Plumlees? What I saw was getting lost a bit of defense, but some flashes of talent. Which might be what you expect. I really hope they don't get phased out of the rotation like Miles was last year. That would be awful. I'm not going to make any doomsday predictions like that right now - I'm just surprised Mason and Miles didn't play more.

I don't understand why you would post something like this? We just beat Gardner-Webb by 45. Miles scored 13 and had 3 blocks. Mason is making his way back from a broken wrist and had 6 points (and 3 assists) in 15 minutes. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest there's even a remote chance that they'll get "phased out of the rotation." If anything, their minutes will grow. And with so many good things to talk about, this is what you're focused on after a game where it's tough to gauge any big guy, because the other team was so small? Come on.

yancem
12-15-2009, 10:47 PM
The question is not will he make it into the nba, the question is what position? 1 or 2. I don't think he has the speed to play the 1 so I think he'll be a combo 2 that shares ball handling duties, especially in the half court.

I don't know, he seemed to be doing a pretty good Kirk Hinrich impression tonight. I know that he may not be quite as athletic as Hinrich but his ball handling and passing have improved dramatically over the past couple of seasons and I think he may actually be more suited for the pg position than the 2 now. In the nba he will probably bounce back and forth depending on the make up of his team.

uh_no
12-15-2009, 10:54 PM
We can't play him more due to foul issues, but there's been no reason this year to play him less.

Agreed.

chrisheery
12-15-2009, 10:55 PM
Fun game to watch. I am not sure everyone who says you can't learn anything from this game is correct.

Few things I noted:

- We tried to feed the post throughout the game. It was clearly a concerted effort and, I thought, a nice change. However, our best post entry passer is, and I know this is crazy, Ryan Kelly. He has the best sense of when to throw the pass, where to throw a pass, and maybe most importantly when to fake the pass, let the defender get out of position and then throw a better pass. Even Scheyer, our second best post entry passer, made 2 passes that led to turnovers when feeding the post tonight (and another that Singler couldn't handle but Zoubek picked up and finished). Anyway, it was great to see us try to get the ball inside, now we just need to work on how to get it there and what to do with it when it gets there. No big deal.

- Amazing shooting. I am not sure we will lose to anyone if our guys shoot like they did tonight. The only thing that indicates to me, though, is that it is easier to shoot against a poor defensive team.

- I love Andre Dawkins. His shot is perfect. I hope we can help him with his handle and quickness with the ball because that will make him unstoppable in the future.

- Hard to argue for Mason to play more when he was out of position on so many defensive plays and failed to box out on multiple occasions. I think he will keep improving.

- As noted above, I think Ryan Kelly is one of the smartest players on our team. He just gets the game as well as anyone. I am surprised his shot has looked so funky, but I can't tell if that is him rushing or if that is really his shot. It certainly doesn't look like it did in his high school clips.

- I loved that Coach K gave Jon the green light to shoot until he missed and gave him more time than he probably wanted to so he could set some career highs.

- I want Nolan to find his 3 point stroke again. I just hope he does. Its clear that he spent a lot of time on it this summer. Would be a shame for him to lose confidence in it. He becomes an incredible threat as a scorer when he can hit that open shot consistently.

geraldsneighbor
12-15-2009, 10:57 PM
If you have by far the best game of your career, is it right to simply describe you as yourself?

Haha, I meant he was back doing his thing from the perimeter. I'll tell you what, I don't care who you play... Jon is becoming much more of a facilitator than I thought he could be. Hes so heady its just so fun to watch.

uh_no
12-15-2009, 10:58 PM
I don't understand why you would post something like this?

There is no chance that they'll get phased out of the rotation, but I think the point of the post was that while there numbers were good, there were several instances when big guys (outside just the bros) left a man wide open under the hoop, whether it was to go help out on the strong side or moving to an uncovered man outside.....that can't happen, and it's likely a point that'll come up in video sessions

Lord Ash
12-15-2009, 10:58 PM
Fourth quarter? What game were YOU watching?

Fourth quarter to me is the second half of the second half.

Sorry, deep in teaching fractions right now at work:)

Acymetric
12-15-2009, 11:17 PM
- We tried to feed the post throughout the game. It was clearly a concerted effort and, I thought, a nice change. However, our best post entry passer is, and I know this is crazy, Ryan Kelly.

Not crazy at all. I think someone noted that earlier in this thread, and I mentioned it in the St. Johns postgame as well. Feeding the post is a weakness our team has had (we did significantly better tonight) that I don't think can be blamed entirely on the bigs, which some people here seem to want to do constantly. Hopefully the effort tonight carries over the rest of the season, if it does guys will get more comfortable feeding the post and everyone will start to develop a better understanding of when to feed the post and when not to.

roywhite
12-15-2009, 11:25 PM
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204858609

From the official boxscore:
65.2% FG for Duke for the game...that'll win most games!
Jon's stat line:
11-13FG 7-9 3-ptFG 7-7FT 8Reb 9Asst 36 points....wow

Best stat line I've seen from a Duke player in a long while...maybe going back to a JJ game against UVa where he scored 40 points and had 13 FG attempts.

DBFAN
12-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Maybe it is me, but I thought it was A.D. biological sister, and his stepmother, and that they were on their way to see Duke and St. Johns in Durham. I know for sure it was in Durham, but not positive about the family members. If it is this way, then I wish ESPN would have apologized for getting the whole story backwards. who does their research, of course I could be wrong.

Greg_Newton
12-16-2009, 01:01 AM
Just feel like they're so close to being so good. They're almost frustrating to watch at times, because they're such explosive talents... yet they just haven't quite "exploded" yet. They're still playing too fast and thinking too slow, and their defensive rotations are really off at times... almost like they're ADD. Miles still walks a lot when he's trying to gather himself for big dunks, which he got away with several times today. I get the feeling that they're trying to take out all their frustration in a single play sometimes by getting themselves in position for the perfect dunk... which instead results in shuffling feet, a hooking call, or giving up position.

Basically, I just really hope things "click" for them soon and they start letting the game come to them rather than trying to instantly prove themselves with superathletic plays. Those will come... for now though, I'd really like to see them try to go through people, rather than around them.

Also, I can't really argue for them playing more than they did today because they haven't earned it, but I would really like to see them given a little more freedom offensively sometimes. Just give 'em the ball and trust them with a few seconds to work without everyone else frantically running around them to bail them out... they're pretty dangerous 1-on-1 if they don't rush things. I know it was with 2 minutes left against G-W, but Mason's spin move was a thing of beauty... I think that followed by the big block might have helped him exhale a little bit. We'll see, I suppose...

Kfanarmy
12-16-2009, 01:19 AM
Mason showed flashes of what we've been reading about. I really like how well he passes the ball. He is still figuring out his spots out there. It would be nice to see him hit the boards a bit harder. I can wait a couple of more weeks to see him hit the boards hard...he may be healed, but the further away from the injury, the less likely of reaggravation....

sdwGT2
12-16-2009, 01:21 AM
I don't know, he seemed to be doing a pretty good Kirk Hinrich impression tonight. I know that he may not be quite as athletic as Hinrich but his ball handling and passing have improved dramatically over the past couple of seasons and I think he may actually be more suited for the pg position than the 2 now. In the nba he will probably bounce back and forth depending on the make up of his team.


Funny you should mention Hinrich. After watching the Duke game I watched the rest of the Bulls-Lakers, and kept thinking about how much Scheyer reminded me of Hinrich. Jon will need to put 10-15 pounds on, but he possesses the same type of skill set. Of course, Kobe skooled Hinrich bad tonight, but he does that to almost everyone. Deng did a pretty good job on Kobe, but he still dropped 42 on the Bulls.

duke09hms
12-16-2009, 03:27 AM
good win for the good guys tonight, but let's try not to get carried away with superlatives, it was Gardner-Webb.

The best play for the team was Miles catching the ball in the post, dribble-faking left, spinning back to the right, and putting it in off the glass. Also think Mason had a nice move in the game.

I don't think I've seen a true post move like that in YEARS

davekay1971
12-16-2009, 08:52 AM
Fun game to watch, and a really remarkable performance by Jon.

I can't work up any anxiety over this team. Not saying they're a lock for the championship, or the final four, but this is just a really good team that's fun to see developing. The most fun I'm having is watching our inside game grow. Zoubs is capping off a career full of injuries and doubters by having a really solid season, and that's good to see, because he's struggled to get there. The Plumlees are going to be a force, probably by the end of this season, certainly by next season. And we shouldn't discount what Lance is doing - he did what Duke asked him to do by playing low post earlier in his career, now he's accepting being more of a role player and doing what we need him to do now...focusing on being a really versatile defender. We've seen so many guys in Duke uniforms being selfless for the team that we've started to take it for granted, but it still deserves recognition, and I think Lance deserves a nod for it.

Looking forward to the next step forward, against a quality Gonzaga team on a neutral floor.

PS: One G-W fan did shout something negative at a Duke player tonight. After Scheyer missed his last shot of the first half, a G-W fan yelled, "You're not perfect!". Coach K did not react right away. However, a reliable source informed me that the fan was invited to the team dinner later. Coach K gave a nice speech about enthusiasms, particularly his enthusiasm for baseball. No one is reporting what exactly happened, but it seems the baseball bat accidentally hit the G-W fan in the back of the head several times, killing him.

Roy may be from the mountains, but Coach K is from Chicago...and that's the Chicago way...

dukestheheat
12-16-2009, 09:03 AM
Miles was definitely jawing. The Flitner kid must have said something to him.

During the Charlotte game, Dawkins was jawing with Spears -- a Senior transfer from BC.

Singler taunts a lot, too.

I personally like it. Helps change our soft, charge-taking image.

...this game, truly. Basketball is played in such tight quarters that it's just a matter of time before some stuff is said. I know we all would like to think that none of our guys jaw with anyone out there because they're Duke and upright and all that, but that just is not reality.

While I would never want to see a Duke guy woof like Maryland's Greivis Vasquez (hope I spelled that right), who I think is pretty funny, actually, I think that Singler is usually on the receiving end of smackie talk and he then chooses to smack back. I don't see anything wrong with that; plus, Singler usually (like Christian Laettner) finds a way to stick the dagger in and kill you.

dth.

NSDukeFan
12-16-2009, 09:47 AM
- We tried to feed the post throughout the game. It was clearly a concerted effort and, I thought, a nice change. However, our best post entry passer is, and I know this is crazy, Ryan Kelly. He has the best sense of when to throw the pass, where to throw a pass, and maybe most importantly when to fake the pass, let the defender get out of position and then throw a better pass. ...

- As noted above, I think Ryan Kelly is one of the smartest players on our team. He just gets the game as well as anyone. I am surprised his shot has looked so funky, but I can't tell if that is him rushing or if that is really his shot. It certainly doesn't look like it did in his high school clips.

Not crazy at all. I think someone noted that earlier in this thread, and I mentioned it in the St. Johns postgame as well.
From St. John's postgame


The other is feeding the post. I know this has been touched on in the past, but I really think we're doing a poor job of finding anyone in the paint when they're posting up. ... On a related note, Kelly made a beautiful feed to the post (can't remember if it was Lance or Z...I'm sure someone else does). One of the best post feeds of the season, I thought.

Anways, great win, hope the guys enjoy the time off and get in some good practice...bring on Gardener-Webb!


I really enjoy watching Ryan Kelly play. I think he is in a tough situation in that he can contribute (I think with a bit of improvement, he can be fine defensively for us) offensively, but has a tough time with the number of quality players in front of him. He seems to be one of our best entry passers from the high post and I like his ability to put the ball on the floor for a dribble or two and shoot.

I certainly agree that Ryan may be our best passer into the post. I hope he can improve defensively enough to get consistent minutes, because I think he helps us quite a bit offensively. I always enjoy seeing us passing the ball into the post, whether we shoot from there or not.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 09:48 AM
Maybe it is me, but I thought it was A.D. biological sister, and his stepmother, and that they were on their way to see Duke and St. Johns in Durham. I know for sure it was in Durham, but not positive about the family members. If it is this way, then I wish ESPN would have apologized for getting the whole story backwards. who does their research, of course I could be wrong.

I'm pretty sure it was his "biological mother" (although that's kind of an awkward phrase, isn't it?) and his half-sister. Not entirely sure about the "half" part, though.

All things considered, Andre played a fabulous game.

Lord Ash
12-16-2009, 09:51 AM
From St. John's postgame


I certainly agree that Ryan may be our best passer into the post. I hope he can improve defensively enough to get consistent minutes, because I think he helps us quite a bit offensively. I always enjoy seeing us passing the ball into the post, whether we shoot from there or not.

What, my post from earlier in the thread doesn't get quoted?:)

He is particularly good at passing OVER the defender who is fronting, or passing to the open hand. I wonder how much of this is basketball IQ, and how much of it is Ryan's length and ability to see/pass over his defender?

NSDukeFan
12-16-2009, 09:54 AM
What, my post from earlier in the thread doesn't get quoted?:)

He is particularly good at passing OVER the defender who is fronting, or passing to the open hand. I wonder how much of this is basketball IQ, and how much of it is Ryan's length and ability to see/pass over his defender?

I should have also quoted you as well, as I agreed with many, if not all of your points after the game. I guess the larger point is there are many of us on the board who like seeing Ryan in the game for his passing, especially feeding the post.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 09:55 AM
I certainly agree that Ryan may be our best passer into the post. I hope he can improve defensively enough to get consistent minutes, because I think he helps us quite a bit offensively. I always enjoy seeing us passing the ball into the post, whether we shoot from there or not.

I think it might be a "speed of the game" thing with Ryan. He plays really well against the lesser teams but doesn't seem to earn minutes against the better ones. It happens to freshmen a lot, and if that's truly the case, he'll be fine, maybe by the end of the season, very likely by next season.

I see the same thing with Mason, by the way, but he seems a little bit ahead of Ryan in this regard. He'll have some bumps against the first few really good opponents he faces, but I expect by tourney time he's going to be someone to reckon with.

NSDukeFan
12-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I think it might be a "speed of the game" thing with Ryan. He plays really well against the lesser teams but doesn't seem to earn minutes against the better ones. It happens to freshmen a lot, and if that's truly the case, he'll be fine, maybe by the end of the season, very likely by next season.

I see the same thing with Mason, by the way, but he seems a little bit ahead of Ryan in this regard. He'll have some bumps against the first few really good opponents he faces, but I expect by tourney time he's going to be someone to reckon with.

Do you think this is just defensively for Ryan though? I don't remember having any concerns about the way he was playing offensively against the better teams. I am hoping he catches up defensively, so we can see him on the court more. Mind you, I don't know whose minutes I would like to see him getting. A potential good problem for coach K to have.

My impression of Mason at the end of the game was that he was almost a bit frustrated that he hadn't done more and/or played more and took that out in his highlight reel move. He looked very determined on that move, IMO. It was very encouraging to me.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 10:07 AM
Do you think this is just defensively for Ryan though? I don't remember having any concerns about the way he was playing offensively against the better teams. I am hoping he catches up defensively, so we can see him on the court more. Mind you, I don't know whose minutes I would like to see him getting. A potential good problem for coach K to have.

My impression of Mason at the end of the game was that he was almost a bit frustrated that he hadn't done more and/or played more and took that out in his highlight reel move. He looked very determined on that move, IMO. It was very encouraging to me.

It's definitely defensively with Ryan, but I also think he's been hesitating more on offense against good teams. Just a split second, maybe, but it matters. He doesn't seem to have as much confidence yet against quick and/or strong players who are as big or almost as big as he is. He's not used to facing that sort of player. It's a natural thing that will correct itself over time.

Mason did look determined on that move, but against a better team he gets stripped as he's making the spin. I was more impressed by the way he filled the lane for a couple easy layups/dunks, and that spectacular pass to Jon for the layup.

BD80
12-16-2009, 10:12 AM
... PS: One G-W fan did shout something negative at a Duke player tonight. After Scheyer missed his last shot of the first half, a G-W fan yelled, "You're not perfect!". Coach K did not react right away. However, a reliable source informed me that the fan was invited to the team dinner later. Coach K gave a nice speech about enthusiasms, particularly his enthusiasm for baseball. No one is reporting what exactly happened, but it seems the baseball bat accidentally hit the G-W fan in the back of the head several times, killing him.

Roy may be from the mountains, but Coach K is from Chicago...and that's the Chicago way...

ol' roy tried to get in, but Wojo turned him away, saying: "just like a tarheel, bringing a can of Coke to a wine tasting"


sorry for mixing the mafia movie metaphors.

NSDukeFan
12-16-2009, 10:30 AM
It's definitely defensively with Ryan, but I also think he's been hesitating more on offense against good teams. Just a split second, maybe, but it matters. He doesn't seem to have as much confidence yet against quick and/or strong players who are as big or almost as big as he is. He's not used to facing that sort of player. It's a natural thing that will correct itself over time.
I know that some people seem to feel that you can't improve in practice, but I would expect playing everyday against Mason, Miles, Lance and Kyle should help very much in this regard.

Mason did look determined on that move, but against a better team he gets stripped as he's making the spin. I was more impressed by the way he filled the lane for a couple easy layups/dunks, and that spectacular pass to Jon for the layup.
I don't know if he would have gotten stripped on that play as he had the ball shielded away from the defender pretty well and had two hands on the ball. But, if you are correct, I still think it was encouraging the way he seemed very comfortable attacking from the top.

CDu
12-16-2009, 11:07 AM
It's definitely defensively with Ryan, but I also think he's been hesitating more on offense against good teams. Just a split second, maybe, but it matters. He doesn't seem to have as much confidence yet against quick and/or strong players who are as big or almost as big as he is. He's not used to facing that sort of player. It's a natural thing that will correct itself over time.

Well, I think it's hard to make any statement about Ryan's preparedness on either end of the floor against good teams, as he's played a grand total of 18 minutes in our four games against such teams (and by "good" I mean "major conference" teams).

I think the jury is still out on Kelly's readiness to compete on either end at the ACC level this year. I still think that he's probably a year away from being ready, though I think he certainly has the skills to be an impact player down the road.

But that being said, like the discussion of the development of the Plumlees (and comparable to the discussion of UNC), there's a lot of time between now and March. A LOT can happen between now and then.

uncwdevil
12-16-2009, 11:28 AM
Scheyer's game last night was probably the most efficient game we've seen from a starter since JJ scored 40 on 13 shots against FSU.

Although I'm sure Scheyer's assist and rebounding numbers were probably better.

TNDukeFan
12-16-2009, 11:50 AM
Didn't see the game, but ESPN just showed Jon making all those shots, and what I noticed was his arm being knocked almost every time he shot. It's like teams have learned they can foul him and it won't be called. Anybody else see it that way?

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 12:20 PM
Well, I think it's hard to make any statement about Ryan's preparedness on either end of the floor against good teams, as he's played a grand total of 18 minutes in our four games against such teams (and by "good" I mean "major conference" teams).

I think the jury is still out on Kelly's readiness to compete on either end at the ACC level this year. I still think that he's probably a year away from being ready, though I think he certainly has the skills to be an impact player down the road.

But that being said, like the discussion of the development of the Plumlees (and comparable to the discussion of UNC), there's a lot of time between now and March. A LOT can happen between now and then.

You don't have to see him for a lot of minutes to notice the hesitation. It's possible the fear of being yanked from the game and not getting back in may contribute to what looks like a slight lack of confidence against better players. As I said, the problem will go away with time. I agree with you that it might not happen until next year, but he'll be fine. He reminds me a little bit of Tom Gugliotta, who showed flashes but didn't really do much his freshman year.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 12:24 PM
I don't know if he would have gotten stripped on that play as he had the ball shielded away from the defender pretty well and had two hands on the ball. But, if you are correct, I still think it was encouraging the way he seemed very comfortable attacking from the top.

I meant he would have been stripped by a help defender, from behind. He started his spin with a somewhat awkward dribble, inviting the help if it was quick enough. I did like his confidence, though. He won't be a monster immediately, but he'll be helping us sooner rather than later.

KyDevilinIL
12-16-2009, 12:34 PM
Didn't see the game, but ESPN just showed Jon making all those shots, and what I noticed was his arm being knocked almost every time he shot. It's like teams have learned they can foul him and it won't be called. Anybody else see it that way?

Yeah, it seems to be a fairly common opinion particularly among Duke fans that Jon gets fouled (or at least creates the appearance of being fouled) on jump shots quite often. And it's not called very much, at least under eyeball scrutiny. I don't have specific numbers on this.

Jon winds up on the floor quite a bit on 3-point attempts. How much of that is the result of legitimate contact and how much is purely for, ahem, dramatic effect isn't clear.

CDu
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Didn't see the game, but ESPN just showed Jon making all those shots, and what I noticed was his arm being knocked almost every time he shot. It's like teams have learned they can foul him and it won't be called. Anybody else see it that way?

Scheyer has a salesman in him. He will typically exaggerate the extension of a leg or an arm on his follow through after his release to try to make contact with the defender, and then flop to the floor to try to draw a foul call. As such, many of the times you see him getting knocked are self-inflicted, and not be called fouls.

That said, he does sometimes get hacked. How often it's correctly called and how often it is missed (in either direction) I couldn't tell you. It could be that his acting jobs are costing him some legitimate foul calls now. Or it could be that refs are actually correctly calling no-calls. In the normal flow of the game on TV (in which the focus usually pans a bit away from the shooter after the shot is released), it's hard to say.

flyingdutchdevil
12-16-2009, 12:55 PM
Scheyer has a salesman in him. He will typically exaggerate the extension of a leg or an arm on his follow through after his release to try to make contact with the defender, and then flop to the floor to try to draw a foul call. As such, many of the times you see him getting knocked are self-inflicted, and not be called fouls.

That said, he does sometimes get hacked. How often it's correctly called and how often it is missed (in either direction) I couldn't tell you. It could be that his acting jobs are costing him some legitimate foul calls now. Or it could be that refs are actually correctly calling no-calls. In the normal flow of the game on TV (in which the focus usually pans a bit away from the shooter after the shot is released), it's hard to say.

Jon is a phenomenal actor who, at times, flops. I really like Jon, and am one of the few who don't believe that flopping is ruining basketball. It's part of the game, and if the refs buy into it, it's their fault and not Jon's. Jon should, and will, continue to do so. He is the Ginobli of college basketball. More power to him.

Random side note: I've heard that Dawkins is supposed to be explosive in not only his shot (which he has clearly demonstrated) but also his driving into traffic (which he hasn't shown this season). From what I heard, he is not as athletic as G, but has some considerable hops. Am I way off base here? If not, is there a reason Dawkins hasn't taken it to the hoop as much?

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 01:01 PM
If not, is there a reason Dawkins hasn't taken it to the hoop as much?

He's a freshman. And three very talented upperclassmen have the ball in their hands most of the time. And he's getting open behind the arc and he's shooting 52% from three-point land. I'm not sure how many other reasons one could ask for.

CDu
12-16-2009, 01:04 PM
Jon is a phenomenal actor who, at times, flops. I really like Jon, and am one of the few who don't believe that flopping is ruining basketball. It's part of the game, and if the refs buy into it, it's their fault and not Jon's. Jon should, and will, continue to do so. He is the Ginobli of college basketball. More power to him.

I disagree a bit here. Flopping can be dangerous to others who may get undercut by a diving player. But more specifically, I dislike the leg kick maneuver Scheyer sometimes does (sticking out your leg after the shot into a passing defender in the air). I think that's pretty dangerous.


Random side note: I've heard that Dawkins is supposed to be explosive in not only his shot (which he has clearly demonstrated) but also his driving into traffic (which he hasn't shown this season). From what I heard, he is not as athletic as G, but has some considerable hops. Am I way off base here? If not, is there a reason Dawkins hasn't taken it to the hoop as much?

The report in simple terms was that Dawkins was a watered-down Henderson with a jump shot. Obviously, I don't think that meant he had the game Henderson brought as a junior (there was a big difference between Henderson as a freshman and Henderson as a junior). But I do take it to mean he's a pretty good leaper. Based on his jumpshot, I'd say that's not an unreasonable belief.

As for why we haven't seen it, there are perhaps a few reasons. First, I don't think his ballhandling skills are great yet. That limits the ability to take it to the hoop. As he gets stronger with the ball and more confident, perhaps we'll see more explosiveness off the dribble. Second, he's on a team with three talented veteran guards who are used to having the ball in their hands. As such, he's been used more to spread the floor. And third, we spend more of the game with two guys around the paint, which cuts a bit into the driving lanes. Henderson played with mostly 4 and sometimes 5 perimeter players, which allowed him room to attack.

And of course there's the possibly/probability that he's just not as explosive as Henderson, who was kind of freakish.

Saratoga2
12-16-2009, 01:45 PM
I disagree a bit here.


The report in simple terms was that Dawkins was a watered-down Henderson with a jump shot. Obviously, I don't think that meant he had the game Henderson brought as a junior (there was a big difference between Henderson as a freshman and Henderson as a junior). But I do take it to mean he's a pretty good leaper. Based on his jumpshot, I'd say that's not an unreasonable belief.

As for why we haven't seen it, there are perhaps a few reasons. First, I don't think his ballhandling skills are great yet. That limits the ability to take it to the hoop. As he gets stronger with the ball and more confident, perhaps we'll see more explosiveness off the dribble. Second, he's on a team with three talented veteran guards who are used to having the ball in their hands. As such, he's been used more to spread the floor. And third, we spend more of the game with two guys around the paint, which cuts a bit into the driving lanes. Henderson played with mostly 4 and sometimes 5 perimeter players, which allowed him room to attack.

And of course there's the possibly/probability that he's just not as explosive as Henderson, who was kind of freakish.

For a lot of the reasons mentioned, Dawkins has not driven to the basket very often but he did in the last game and he also drove in part way and went to a fade away jumper from in the key. As with any freshmen, except perhaps John Wall types, he is going through a feeling out period to see what he can do well. It looks to me as though he can go to the basket and seems to have reasonable ball handling capabilities. He is 6'4" and strong, so I expect that part of his game will blossom as the season moves on.

Jumbo
12-16-2009, 02:14 PM
From what I heard, he is not as athletic as G, but has some considerable hops. Am I way off base here? If not, is there a reason Dawkins hasn't taken it to the hoop as much?

Ball-handling. Andre's dribble moves just aren't there yet.

Greg_Newton
12-16-2009, 02:53 PM
What, my post from earlier in the thread doesn't get quoted?:)

He is particularly good at passing OVER the defender who is fronting, or passing to the open hand. I wonder how much of this is basketball IQ, and how much of it is Ryan's length and ability to see/pass over his defender?

His length helps a lot (especially with the over-the-tops), but one thing Ryan does that our perimeter guys don't is he really whips the ball into the post. A few of our turnovers on post-entry passes last night came from post players not shielding off the defender sufficiently, but a lot of the blame also falls on Nolan/Jon/Kyle for telegraphing and floating the ball in. Our big guys have great hands, so you just need to make a strong pass fake and then trust them to catch a crisp entry, which Ryan does really well.

BlueintheFace
12-16-2009, 03:46 PM
Ball-handling. Andre's dribble moves just aren't there yet.

...and because of that, he doesn't have the confidence to take a man off the dribble from the perimeter.

I think that'll be the focus of his offseason. I don't see him making the jump this season. He'll just be our marksman from outside this year and work on that defense all season.

dukelifer
12-16-2009, 03:48 PM
Ball-handling. Andre's dribble moves just aren't there yet.

Absolutely. Improving his ball handling skills will likely be a priority over the summer- not much time to fix that now. He needs to be much stronger with the ball. The kid has a picture perfect jump shot, however. No need to mess with that.

Classof06
12-16-2009, 04:04 PM
- Thought the guys looked a tad bit rusty, but it was nice to see them take care of business. It was what I wanted to see heading into Saturday.

- I know everyone but Duke hates Duke, but is there a more underappreciated player in America than Jon Scheyer? Not on these boards, but the guy is just so consistent, that you almost forget about him.

- I loved the fact that early in the game, Scheyer had Smith and MP2 on the break and gave it to MP2. With a freshman player coming off an injury like that, it was good to see Scheyer get him an easy dunk and get his confidence up.

- As you all already know, Saturday is a biggie. UCONN was a barometer, Wisconsin was one as well, but this is pretty much our last big test heading into ACC play. As with every game, I'm especially curious to see what happens in the paint. I'm past the point of worrying how Smith, Scheyer and Singler are going to play.

Welcome2DaSlopes
12-16-2009, 04:09 PM
- Thought the guys looked a tad bit rusty, but it was nice to see them take care of business. It was what I wanted to see heading into Saturday.

- I know everyone but Duke hates Duke, but is there a more underappreciated player in America than Jon Scheyer? Not on these boards, but the guy is just so consistent, that you almost forget about him.

.

I think he is the most underappreciated guy in college hoops but i wouldn't say he is SO consistent. Do you remember last year mid season?

mapei
12-16-2009, 05:23 PM
I hear ya, but he's pretty consistent - I would say that no one at Duke has been more consistent than Jon since Shane, who was in a class by himself.

flyingdutchdevil
12-16-2009, 05:48 PM
I hear ya, but he's pretty consistent - I would say that no one at Duke has been more consistent than Jon since Shane, who was in a class by himself.

Disagree. With one or two games withstanding, JJ had an incredibly consistent junior and senior year. He just had terrible off games in the Sweet Sixteen.

Scheyer had one of the worst mid-season streaks that I can remember of any All-ACC caliber player last year. He is doing great this year and I'm sure he'll keep it up!