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JasonEvans
04-03-2007, 03:53 PM
It was inevitable, wasn't it?

http://fire.joealleva.com/

The website says it is in early development and that a blog will be coming up soon.

-Jason "the only argument I can come up with in support of Mr. Alleva is that K really, really liked him at one time" Evans

LetItBD08
04-03-2007, 04:00 PM
Really early developments obviously.
Gostenkors? competant?

Just kidding. I'm sure it was written out of frustration, and they'll catch that soon.

dcarp23
04-03-2007, 04:19 PM
There are twelve mens sports, eight of which I know to be scholarship sports. Duke is a national power in six of those sports, and are reasonably competitive in a seventh (cross country).

There are twelve womens sports (and I don't know which of them are scholarship sports or not), and Duke has one of the top programs in eight of those sports.

In recent years, he has overseen the building of a new football building and soon to be a new basketball building, and the rest of the facilities are significantly improved since I started in the Fall of 1998.

I'm not sure it's fair to ask a whole lot more out of the athletic director than the above. Duke placed eighth in last year's Directors Cups standings, third among private schools behind Stanford, which has 31 varsity sports, and Notre Dame, which has the same number of sports as Duke. Other private schools on the list in the top 50: Southern Cal (10th), Northwestern (29th), BYU (31st), Baylor (32nd), Miami (FL) (42nd), Wake Forest (44th), Princeton (42nd), and SMU (49th).

As an alum, I was embarrassed at the time of the DWI last spring, but is that cause for firing the man? I don't know.

I do believe, however, that people get absurdly reactionary when calling for a man to lose his job. Sports is a weird industry in that regard: I can't think of another where people actively call for taking a man's livelihood away. And I think such calls should be reserved for much more serious situations than the fact that a coach decides to take another job.

Duvall
04-03-2007, 04:21 PM
And I think such calls should be reserved for much more serious situations than the fact that a coach decides to take another job.

I'm certainly glad that there haven't been any serious situations for Duke athletics in recent months.

feldspar
04-03-2007, 04:23 PM
And I think such calls should be reserved for much more serious situations than the fact that a coach decides to take another job.

Time will probably tell, but for various reason I feel like we just gave up the Coach K (1990ish) of the women's college basketball world. A coach who clearly has the ability and the know-how, but has just not had the dice roll well enough to get the big one yet.

And Joe Alleva let her go.

Reason enough to me.

DevilWolf
04-03-2007, 04:26 PM
I had as much to do with the new facilities as Joe Alleva did. I'd actually be in favor of dissolving our athletic department at this point. Get rid of Alleva, and combine campus rec, club sports, intramural sports and intercollegiate athletics departments into one.

BigDuke6
04-03-2007, 04:28 PM
At least he could have said the right thing when he made his initial comments about Texas talking to Coach G regardless of how he felt. His track record looks nice on paper but is he really helping or hindering us?

dcarp23
04-03-2007, 04:29 PM
I'm certainly glad that there haven't been any serious situations for Duke athletics in recent months.

Touche. I have no idea if Alleva was able to do anything differently during the Lacrosse situation for a number of reasons that have certainly been discussed. As K noted, the entire athletic department regrets not having been more supportive of the players; that doesn't rectify any wrongs done, but everyone involved screwed that one up.

FireOgilvie
04-03-2007, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure it's fair to ask a whole lot more out of the athletic director than the above. Duke placed eighth in last year's Directors Cups standings, third among private schools behind Stanford, which has 31 varsity sports, and Notre Dame, which has the same number of sports as Duke. Other private schools on the list in the top 50: Southern Cal (10th), Northwestern (29th), BYU (31st), Baylor (32nd), Miami (FL) (42nd), Wake Forest (44th), Princeton (42nd), and SMU (49th).

As an alum, I was embarrassed at the time of the DWI last spring, but is that cause for firing the man? I don't know.

I do believe, however, that people get absurdly reactionary when calling for a man to lose his job. Sports is a weird industry in that regard: I can't think of another where people actively call for taking a man's livelihood away. And I think such calls should be reserved for much more serious situations than the fact that a coach decides to take another job.

Given Duke's situation, I think this is an incredibly poor argument. Do you think Joe Alleva stepped in and recruited the athletes that make these sports so good? The coaches that recruit these student-athletes have an incredibly easy sell. They say "Hi. My name is _____ and I coach ______. I want you to come to Duke University, a school with the best academics and athletics combination of any school in the eastern half of the country. We compete in the ACC. We're located in North Carolina and have beautiful weather nearly all year that you can enjoy on our gorgeous campus. We have Coach K and the consistently best basketball team around." That's it. Every athlete I know including myself chose Duke as soon as they visited. I also know a lot of people that made the initial contact with Duke and basically recruited themselves.

Also, you can't see why people would call for a man's job? Well, for one, if someone is doing their job poorly... any job... you fire them. That is what you do. This is especially important when that person is in a position of high power and controls millions and millions of dollars.

DevilWolf
04-03-2007, 04:42 PM
To show unity in our disgust towards Joe Alleva, I suggest we all boycott football games in the fall.

FireOgilvie
04-03-2007, 04:44 PM
To show unity in our disgust towards Joe Alleva, I suggest we all boycott football games in the fall.

That will be tough to do... I love watching us lose every game by 20+.

Wander
04-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Given Duke's situation, I think this is an incredibly poor argument. Do you think Joe Alleva stepped in and recruited the athletes that make these sports so good?


Exactly. Which of our powerhouse programs are a result of Alleva?

The Coach G thing is the last straw for me. Regardless of whether or not he made an honest effort to keep her, the point remains that he did not keep her. A good athletics director would have found a way to do that (especially considering the speculation on why G made her decision).

dcarp23
04-03-2007, 04:51 PM
Given Duke's situation, I think this is an incredibly poor argument. Do you think Joe Alleva stepped in and recruited the athletes that make these sports so good? The coaches that recruit these student-athletes have an incredibly easy sell. They say "Hi. My name is _____ and I coach ______. I want you to come to Duke University, a school with the best academics and athletics combination of any school in the eastern half of the country. We compete in the ACC. We're located in North Carolina and have beautiful weather nearly all year that you can enjoy on our gorgeous campus. We have Coach K and the consistently best basketball team around." That's it. Every athlete I know including myself chose Duke as soon as they visited. I also know a lot of people that made the initial contact with Duke and basically recruited themselves.


I guess I'm still failing to see what the guy has done so poorly. If he can't be given credit for the success of sports, then the fact that the football team and baseball teams have struggled can't be held against him.

Thus, I have seen three arguments against him.

1. DWI: big screw up. Again, not sure if that is firable or not.

2. Lacrosse situation: In my mind, a perfect storm with no easy solution no matter who the AD was. Additionally, President Brodhead seemed to be in control of the situation from the school's perspective. We don't know the discussions that went on behind the scenes, particularly relating to the cancelling of the season and the dismissal of Coach Pressler. My guess (and it's obviously only a guess) is that Alleva's hands were tied in that situation. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to pass judgment on him specifically without knowing more details.

3. Coach Goestenkoers leaving: From all indications, he offered the same amount of money as the school that eventually hired her. Should he have broken the bank for her? Debatable, but my opinion is know. Regardless of my opinion, there is always the chance that Coach G just wanted a change of venue. We have no idea her reasons for leaving at this point, so again to put it all on the athletic director appears unwarranted to me. There appears to be a consensus on a PR screwup from Alleva, but if that were the rationale for being fired, there's a good chance the men's basketball coach would have been tossed a while ago.

Unless there are further arguments against the guy, I personally don't see a reason for him to be fired.

TheDuke11
04-03-2007, 04:53 PM
HAHAHA Duke keeping within 20 of anyone is hillarious.

FireOgilvie
04-03-2007, 05:07 PM
I guess I'm still failing to see what the guy has done so poorly. If he can't be given credit for the success of sports, then the fact that the football team and baseball teams have struggled can't be held against him.

....


Unless there are further arguments against the guy, I personally don't see a reason for him to be fired.

For one thing, I was mainly referring to the non-scholarship, non-revenue sports that you were mentioning earlier. I was not referring to football and basketball.



Here is a list of the things that Alleva has done poorly.

1. Duke football. Hiring Franks, giving him an extension, hiring Roof, not holding anyone accountable. Duke football is a joke right now. It doesn't have to be.

2. He lost Goestenkors (and handled the situation incredibly poorly!) one of the best women's basketball coaches in the country (top 3).

3. He drunkenly crashed his boat with his son.

4. The baseball situation - steroids, people leaving the team, awful coach, another extension, hires a new coach with a losing record at a small school when any number of excellent coaches would want to coach at Duke.

5. The way he handled the lacrosse mess. He immediately forced Pressler out and then when giving press conferences it became really apparent to everyone that he can't speak publically and has almost nothing to say.

6. There is absolutely no oversight of any of the small non-revenue sports. It's very clear that he doesn't care about the small sports. He seems to leave them completely alone (which might be best judging from what happens when he intervenes).


I'm sure I'm missing something. Feel free to fill in the list.

dcarp23
04-03-2007, 05:13 PM
is obviously a huge deal (that I had forgotten about). And complicity in that would, in my mind, certainly be fireable. However, if the University knew of such complicity on his part, I would be shocked that he retained his job. The Chronicle's editorial didn't offer any proof of such knowledge, but just a statement.

I guess I don't have a lot more to add to this--I'm just going to continue to regurgitating what I've already said. Reasonable minds can disagree, and I appreciate the good discussion.

sammy3469
04-03-2007, 05:27 PM
His handling of the football team is reason enough for him to go...at virtually no other BCS conference school would that situation be allowed to continue for as long as it has. I'm sure the money drain from that situation had some type of negative effect of the Coach G situation and pay. When those two huge black eyes are coupled with the lacrosse mess, I don't see how anyone can support the guy.

arnie is still king
04-03-2007, 06:19 PM
I guess someone must support the AD - he still has the job, so it might as well be you. The baseball situation with Hiller was horrible - Joe covered up the steroids for his buddy - a man that purchased Joe Alleva's home. The lacrosse situation has been beyond belief, and Alleva was very aware of previous major problems with the team's behavior. The hiring of Carl Franks was a horrible decision, the hiring of Ted Roof may not have been much better. What more needs to be said about a man that would be in a speedboat with his drunken son months after the lacrosse debacle.

An AD is paid well enough to have a vision; our AD has none and has been reduced to an overpaid administrator. The situation with Gail is just another example of someone without a vision.

Duvall
04-03-2007, 06:23 PM
is obviously a huge deal (that I had forgotten about). And complicity in that would, in my mind, certainly be fireable. However, if the University knew of such complicity on his part, I would be shocked that he retained his job. The Chronicle's editorial didn't offer any proof of such knowledge, but just a statement.

I guess I don't have a lot more to add to this--I'm just going to continue to regurgitating what I've already said. Reasonable minds can disagree, and I appreciate the good discussion.

I'm not aware of anyone having suggested that Alleva was complicit in the steroid matter, but it doesn't speak well of his management skills that he was apparently unaware of a scandal that took place on a team for which two of his sons were playing.

SoCalDukeFan
04-03-2007, 06:31 PM
3. Coach Goestenkoers leaving: From all indications, he offered the same amount of money as the school that eventually hired her. Should he have broken the bank for her? Debatable, but my opinion is know. Regardless of my opinion, there is always the chance that Coach G just wanted a change of venue. We have no idea her reasons for leaving at this point, so again to put it all on the athletic director appears unwarranted to me. There appears to be a consensus on a PR screwup from Alleva, but if that were the rationale for being fired, there's a good chance the men's basketball coach would have been tossed a while ago.

Unless there are further arguments against the guy, I personally don't see a reason for him to be fired.

When a coach is doing a great job, ie getting to the national game, running a great program, etc. then a competent AD rewards her and lets her know that she is appreciated. Maybe he tries to find ways to make her life better and her team better, ie charter flights to games. Hopefully when another school calls her she then says: "Thanks, I am flattered but I love it here and they appreciate me."

Joe must go.

SoCal

bludev03
04-03-2007, 07:28 PM
I'm behind you 110%!!! Where do I sign??

grossbus
04-03-2007, 07:32 PM
"And Joe Alleva let her go"

he let a door get opened that did not need to be opened and should not have been opened. the comments he made on TV last night were the ones he should have made three weeks ago instead of the foot-in-mouth ones he made.

we will never again have a coach of her quality heading the women's bball program. we will become clemson.

he MUST go.

this is what HE lost...

7 straight years of at least 30 wins
4 Final Fours, with two appearances in the national title game
7 Elite Eights
10 straight Sweet 16 appearances
5 ACC Tournament titles
3 undefeated ACC regular seasons
7 ACC Coach of the Year awards
8 National Coach of the Year awards
Best won/loss percentage of any men's or women's head coach in ACC history (over 80 percent)

hamlin27
04-03-2007, 07:38 PM
Coach G was a shining light I could always count on to make me feel Duke was a great place. She didn't whine about the refs after losses. She didn't have showboats craving the spotlight. She didn't pretend she was bigger than she was. She was class personified. And now she's left.
Since he's arrived at Duke, Joe Alleva has made from awful hires, which have been well documented. The fact he has to make another one scares me to death.
I guess we truly didn't appreciate the good times while they were here.
If Alleva was at a state university, he would have been fired long ago. Why he hasn't at Duke is beyond me. This should be the end for him. And this isn't some unreasonable quest to have an official fired because he's lost a game. He's embarrassed the university with the boating incident, Carl Franks and the baseball team. It's time someone was held accountable.
I guess he won't be happy until all programs are as inept as the football team has been.
This is truly an awful day.

bill brill
04-03-2007, 07:56 PM
chris plonsky, the texas women's AD, is a good friend and positively the best at her job in the nation. everybody agreed on that when she was in the big east, where I first met her. the difference for gail will be that plonsky will be proactive. she will ask gail what she needs and she'll get it, because she will only ask for things she needs. that never happened at duke and won't under the present administration. for the most part, duke has an extraordinary record in athletics. I always wondered what it would be with good leadership, from the allen building down.

SoCalDukeFan
04-03-2007, 09:10 PM
I always wondered what it would be with good leadership, from the allen building down.

Bill Brill knows what he is talking about. Brodhead needs to decide if he wants Duke to be the best it can be in athletics or not. If he does then Brodhead needs to a real athletic director. If not, then he might as well say so and then find out what the alumni want.

SoCal

ncnygirl
04-03-2007, 09:17 PM
Thanks for posting Mr. Brill. Quite frankly, I'd be happy if there was some clear, consistent, supportive, imaginative leadership simply in the athletic department. Yes, there are terrific peple who work hard there and the athletic teams have done well in recent years. However, there needs to be a change at the top. That position is too important to countenance the errors in judgement (Hiller, his house, boat accident etc. etc.) and the PR gaffes that apparently continue.

NYC Duke Fan
04-03-2007, 10:04 PM
Judging from the past, this post will probably not be posted because it criticizes Coach K but I will try anyway.

I think that a message of some sort was sent to the Women's program when neither Alleva nor Coach K could find the time to travel to Greensboro, North Carolina to cheer on the women's team after the men's team had been eliminatede from the tournament.

I bet that if the circumstances were reversed you would have seen something different from Coach G. She is a class act and I will be rooting for Texas every game except when they play Duke.

pamtar
04-03-2007, 10:17 PM
To show unity in our disgust towards Joe Alleva, I suggest we all boycott football games in the fall.

Nobody goes anyway.

hamlin27
04-03-2007, 10:19 PM
I can't disagree with that.
If Dick Baddour can find time to fly to Dallas, TX to watch the UNC woman play for a trip to the Final Four the day after the men's team gets eliminated, then taking a 45-minute drive to Greensboro a week AFTER the Duke men get eliminated is the least Alleva could have done. Krzyzewski does have some recruiting matters to tend to. What's Alleva's excuse?

grossbus
04-03-2007, 10:24 PM
"I always wondered what it would be with good leadership, from the allen building down."

don't we all. and won't we continue to.

Wander
04-03-2007, 10:27 PM
What about the Iron Dukes, by the way? I'm not an expert on how they work, but I was disappointed in the Iron Duke quote in the AP article, and I'm kind of wondering why they haven't applied pressure to get rid of Alleva before. If we're talking about leadership at the top of the athletics department, their role has something to do with that, doesn't it?

dukie8
04-03-2007, 10:37 PM
Judging from the past, this post will probably not be posted because it criticizes Coach K but I will try anyway.

I think that a message of some sort was sent to the Women's program when neither Alleva nor Coach K could find the time to travel to Greensboro, North Carolina to cheer on the women's team after the men's team had been eliminatede from the tournament.

I bet that if the circumstances were reversed you would have seen something different from Coach G. She is a class act and I will be rooting for Texas every game except when they play Duke.

give me a break. it's not k's job to cheerlead the women's team. the vcu loss was disappointing enough for him. you then expected him to trot on down to greensboro only to be hounded by the media and public about what a downer of a season he had. moreover, if he had shown up, it would have been a major distraction because, quite frankly, he would get a lot more attention than the game at hand. i remember reading on here earlier in the year that a major reason why he doesn't go to women's games is that he knows that he will take away a lot of attention from the game at hand.

Cary
04-03-2007, 10:39 PM
I think that a message of some sort was sent to the Women's program when neither Alleva nor Coach K could find the time to travel to Greensboro, North Carolina to cheer on the women's team after the men's team had been eliminatede from the tournament.

Joe Alleva was in attendance in Greensboro. I know because I was there, too.

Walkondevil
04-03-2007, 10:49 PM
First I would like to say that I'm as upset as anyone that Coach G left. However, when a coach chooses to leave Duke - my Duke - our Duke for another school, especially a large state school in Texas, I can only say that I do not wish them ill will but I certainly don't wish them luck. I say save all the luck for our girls and the new coach. Coach G is now the competition. Sure she's not in our conference and I will always look back on what she did for Duke with pride and the utmost respect. That is all in the past now. Any championship she wins in the future is a championship we will have not have won. Any all-american recruit she gets at Texas is a potential all-american that could have come to Duke. So here's to hoping that Coach G wins plenty of Big 12 championships but I hope beyond hope that she never finds success in the NCAA tournament or on the recruiting trail at the expense of those who choose to call Duke THEIR school. Thanks for the memories Coach G - but as of about 4:30 this afternoon they are only memories - fond memories but memories nonetheless. I just hope the girls and recruits she left behind have the opportunity to show her that she made a big mistake today.

Duke Women's Basketball 2008 Champions!!!!

Capn Poptart
04-03-2007, 11:27 PM
chris plonsky, the texas women's AD, is a good friend and positively the best at her job in the nation. everybody agreed on that when she was in the big east, where I first met her.

Hmmmmm. Maybe Chris Plonsky would like to be Duke A.D.?

ncnygirl
04-03-2007, 11:32 PM
Hmmmmm. Maybe Chris Plonsky would like to be Duke A.D.?

Now that's an inspired, imaginative idea.....but I doubt the "good ole boys" could ever accept a female AD no matter how competent she is.

Kewlswim
04-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Now that's an inspired, imaginative idea.....but I doubt the "good ole boys" could ever accept a female AD no matter how competent she is.


Hi,

I know this might sound nieve, but it always seemed to me that Duke was rather progressive on many fronts. Besides the obvious of having Nan as President, I thought being a dean was a job that was traditionally held by women because every dean I had at Duke was held by a woman. It wasn't until I got to Stanford that I learned that women dean's aren't that common. Now, the academic side of the house and the athletic side are not the same. However, I can't see President Brodhead being against a woman or an African-American or a minority of any sort. He just does not strike me as that sort of person. He seems inclusive to me. Then again, maybe he is just one voice in a see of voices and decision makers.

GO DUKE!

ncnygirl
04-04-2007, 12:03 AM
Agree completely with your assessment of President Brodhead. My comments were directed to other "powers" exerting influence in the Duke athletic department firmament.

pratt '04
04-04-2007, 12:18 AM
Brodhead needs to decide if he wants Duke to be the best it can be in athletics or not. If he does then Brodhead needs to a real athletic director. If not, then he might as well say so and then find out what the alumni want.

Does the Duke leadership really care what the alumni think? More and more I get the feeling that it doesn't.

gep
04-04-2007, 12:25 AM
Now that's an inspired, imaginative idea.....but I doubt the "good ole boys" could ever accept a female AD no matter how competent she is.

But, I've read in these posts that Texas has a men's AD AND women's AD, separate from each other, each responsible for men's and women's teams. Can that be done at Duke? It doesn't fix the football or baseball or lacrosse problems, but it may "help" the women's teams / programs...

Latta6970
04-04-2007, 12:31 AM
Okay I know I'm going to get flack for asking what many (if not most) will consider a stupid question, but what exactly does an AD do? Okay we know Aleva busted his butt to keep Coach K from taking the Lakers job and apparently didn't do enough to keep Coach G. But what exactly were his job duties in between the two incidents? (And don't say deal with the LAX scandal.) Is an AD like an accountant trying to ballance Duke's budget between revenue and sallaries? Or is a shmooze job where you suck up to one person one week and someone else the next to get what you want. Please tell me, what does a freakin' AD do?

SmartDevil
04-04-2007, 01:05 AM
It is not just time to fire Joe Alleva.....it is overdue.

First and foremost, he has presided over the CONTINUED abject failure of the football program. It is INCONCEIVABLE that this has been tolerated.

This trumps all other issues.

But he apparently presided over the deterioration of the baseball program.....failed to supervise the lacrosse program after having adequate notice that the wonderful athletes on this team needed greater leadership and monitoring (and thus he precipitated the greatest crisis facing Duke Univeristy in modern history).....and had now in effect "sent packing" the superb coach of the women's basketball team by not giving her continuing support for a program which brought sterling credit to Duke.

Clean out your office, Alleva. Tomorrow. Show some class and move on on your own.

NYC Duke Fan
04-04-2007, 03:36 AM
give me a break. it's not k's job to cheerlead the women's team. the vcu loss was disappointing enough for him. you then expected him to trot on down to greensboro only to be hounded by the media and public about what a downer of a season he had. moreover, if he had shown up, it would have been a major distraction because, quite frankly, he would get a lot more attention than the game at hand. i remember reading on here earlier in the year that a major reason why he doesn't go to women's games is that he knows that he will take away a lot of attention from the game at hand.

Just a lame excuse. It would have been a class act on his part. What do you think would have happened...ESPN would have had the cameras on Coach K all game following him around ? Maybe and just maybe if there was support all around for Coach G, she might have stayed.

Stop making excuses for everything that Coach K does...He should have been there...PERIOD.

dukie8
04-04-2007, 06:57 AM
Just a lame excuse. It would have been a class act on his part. What do you think would have happened...ESPN would have had the cameras on Coach K all game following him around ? Maybe and just maybe if there was support all around for Coach G, she might have stayed.

Stop making excuses for everything that Coach K does...He should have been there...PERIOD.

i am about the last person on here who makes excuses for k. stop trying to blame him for g leaving. he is the MEN'S basketball coach and had zero reason to show up to the WOMEN'S game. yes, espn would have been showing him throughout the game just like they do with much less profile people (eg, scheyer's mom, noah's parents, arod in cis, etc).

Troublemaker
04-04-2007, 06:58 AM
Just a lame excuse. It would have been a class act on his part. What do you think would have happened...ESPN would have had the cameras on Coach K all game following him around ? Maybe and just maybe if there was support all around for Coach G, she might have stayed.

Stop making excuses for everything that Coach K does...He should have been there...PERIOD.

Maybe K WAS showing her support, privately, and by allowing her to make the best decision for her career. Besides, he was doing his job by going to see Patrick Patterson play.

At any rate, for all the bashing going on of Alleva (and he may or may not deserve to get fired regardless of Coach G's decision), how much did money and overall resources available play into G's decision? Does Alleva have absolute authority over how many dollars and resources to offer Coach G? If not, then it's hard to blame him too much. If Duke wants to keep a great coach around, it needs to pony up.

coblue
04-04-2007, 07:24 AM
At first glance the majority of the programs treading water well has some weight in favor of the AD. But, for better or worse, an AD has to do one thing, take care of a handful of high profile sports.

At this Alleva is possibly the worst human ever.

He is slowly overseeing the demise of the athletic program as a whole as revenue losses and ridicule trickle down.

The sooner he leaves, the sooner Duke athletics can be put on a healthy course.

ghost
04-04-2007, 08:09 AM
I'd actually be in favor of dissolving our athletic department at this point. Get rid of Alleva, and combine campus rec, club sports, intramural sports and intercollegiate athletics departments into one.

In response to the CCI, I thought the same thing. It seems to be working for Vanderbilt.

NYC Duke Fan
04-04-2007, 11:23 AM
Maybe K WAS showing her support, privately, and by allowing her to make the best decision for her career. Besides, he was doing his job by going to see Patrick Patterson play.

At any rate, for all the bashing going on of Alleva (and he may or may not deserve to get fired regardless of Coach G's decision), how much did money and overall resources available play into G's decision? Does Alleva have absolute authority over how many dollars and resources to offer Coach G? If not, then it's hard to blame him too much. If Duke wants to keep a great coach around, it needs to pony up.

I could be wrong but I think I remember reading somewhere when Coach K was being wooed by the Lakers, Coach G was quoted that she hoped that Coach K would stay at Duke because aside from being such an intregal part of the university, his being at Duke helped the Women's program.

wxyz
04-04-2007, 11:50 AM
Okay I know I'm going to get flack for asking what many (if not most) will consider a stupid question, but what exactly does an AD do? Okay we know Aleva busted his butt to keep Coach K from taking the Lakers job and apparently didn't do enough to keep Coach G. But what exactly were his job duties in between the two incidents? (And don't say deal with the LAX scandal.) Is an AD like an accountant trying to ballance Duke's budget between revenue and sallaries? Or is a shmooze job where you suck up to one person one week and someone else the next to get what you want. Please tell me, what does a freakin' AD do?

The AD is the chief administrator of the athletic organization. As such he is most visible when he hires coaches for visible sports or smoozes with big names.

Most of the AD's real work has to do with budgets (there are lots of them and they are supposed to fit together) facilities (schedules, renovations, new buildings), personnel (there always are issues), dealing with the larger university (just coordinating overlapping space, as for parking, can be a big issue, and JA really screwed up with evicting voter registration), administrative meetings on scheduling, scholarships, student discipline, etc.

An important role of the AD is being the spokesman/spokeswoman for the athletes and coaches in times of victory or stress, trying to give information while striking the right balance. He has to relate his university to the conference officials, to TV, etc, and in doing that he has to be able to be friends while pushing back against pushy people. Then there are relationships with faculty/administrators in other parts of the university. It is a big job if done well. When done poorly, things lapse into each cog trying to protect its own wheel.

Indoor66
04-04-2007, 12:05 PM
There are twelve mens sports, eight of which I know to be scholarship sports. Duke is a national power in six of those sports, and are reasonably competitive in a seventh (cross country).

There are twelve womens sports (and I don't know which of them are scholarship sports or not), and Duke has one of the top programs in eight of those sports.

In recent years, he has overseen the building of a new football building and soon to be a new basketball building, and the rest of the facilities are significantly improved since I started in the Fall of 1998.

I'm not sure it's fair to ask a whole lot more out of the athletic director than the above. Duke placed eighth in last year's Directors Cups standings, third among private schools behind Stanford, which has 31 varsity sports, and Notre Dame, which has the same number of sports as Duke. Other private schools on the list in the top 50: Southern Cal (10th), Northwestern (29th), BYU (31st), Baylor (32nd), Miami (FL) (42nd), Wake Forest (44th), Princeton (42nd), and SMU (49th).

As an alum, I was embarrassed at the time of the DWI last spring, but is that cause for firing the man? I don't know.

I do believe, however, that people get absurdly reactionary when calling for a man to lose his job. Sports is a weird industry in that regard: I can't think of another where people actively call for taking a man's livelihood away. And I think such calls should be reserved for much more serious situations than the fact that a coach decides to take another job.

Well reasoned and well stated post. Thank you.

I am neither pro nor anti Alleva. I think the jury is still out. I think that, on balance, he as done a pretty good job.

Is he subject to some criticism? Sure. So is K or Gail or anyone else. Do we want improvement in our sports programs at Duke? Sure we do. Seems to me that the approach of blaming one individual, in any enterprise, is most often short sighted and plain wrong.

ehdg
04-04-2007, 12:23 PM
"I always wondered what it would be with good leadership, from the allen building down."

don't we all. and won't we continue to.

There was great leadership at one time but that was before the Allen Building and the leadership was Tom Butters. Sadly he felt it was time to retire and enjoy life and we hired the wrong person to continue the great work/foundation that Mr. Butters had laid down!! :mad:

DukeDevilDeb
04-04-2007, 01:00 PM
Me, too! I cannot fathom letting her get away. There was a picture of Coach G and Alleva at the recent meetings in Ohio... she looked like she was glad to be done with him. Me too!

pratt '04
04-04-2007, 06:22 PM
After googling "fire joe alleva" today, I found that the Chronicle's staff editorial has called for the firing of Joe Alleva... Almost exactly one year ago. (http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/04/10/StaffEditorials/Fire-Joe.Alleva-1803442.shtml?norewrite200604101444&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com)

The staff editorial concludes with:

"Five-plus strikes, Mr. Athletic Director.
You're out of here."

I guess we can make that six-plus now...

Ima Facultiwyfe
04-04-2007, 11:55 PM
There's a sappy little part of me that is always concerned with somebody on the ropes..... whether he deserves it or not. I'm curious. Does anybody know what kinds of jobs fired athletic directors go to? Do they become sporting goods salesmen or something? What?

It's sort of like the Prince of Wales having to go out and look for work. What in the heck would he be qualified for?

Oh, I sort of remember Bill Cobey from Carolina went on to become politician I think. That may partially answer my question.:rolleyes:

Love, Ima

blublood
04-05-2007, 10:03 AM
There's a sappy little part of me that is always concerned with somebody on the ropes..... whether he deserves it or not. I'm curious. Does anybody know what kinds of jobs fired athletic directors go to? Do they become sporting goods salesmen or something? What?



Oh, there would be a host of opportunities for him at smaller colleges wanting to develop their programs... probably not so much at the big state schools that already have excellent athletics traditions. College administrators, especially at as high a level as that, can generally keep going round and round the carousel until they either get bored, retire, or really, really screw up to the point where no one will hire them (jury is still out as to whether this has already occured at Duke). That's assuming he would want to remain an athletic director - he could of course always become dean of a sports education department, consult, start his own business, whatever.

So, no worries - no matter how this shakes out, Joe will be earning quite a good living.

Dopeshop
04-05-2007, 10:30 AM
My first revelation that the Duke athletic program wasn't highly regarded came in the AD search after the Butters' resignation .I was certain the Duke job would be highly sought after and we would be swamped with exciting and viable applicants . What a surprise ! No one of stature was interested . Even the few we sought ( Iowa State AD ? ) turned down the job. There was lots of talk about the difficulty in being Coach K's boss etc. The job was given to Joe Aleeva knowing he was underqualified , but hoping he would "grow into the job." I can find little evidence that he has become a top notch AD and /or is highly regarded by his peers or the Duke hierarchy ,including Board Members.
This was reaffirmed in the search for A Lax coach . A head coach at a top of the line Independent U was actively seeking the job . The advice he got from an unimpeachable source was along the following lines :You will be leaving an efficient and well run program for one that has lots of problems."The source went on to say . : No competent and talented Ad would allow a Div I football program to get like Duke's ,etc

i wonder if Joe A gets fired and NO one wants the job. !!

throatybeard
04-05-2007, 11:46 AM
I'm not a big fan of the way in which some of our fans indict, particularly, the Faculty at large and Nan Keohane in actively trying to wreck Duke sports. The way that argument goes down on bulletin boards just gets a bit too "and Grant Hill served the beer."

Nonetheless, I respect hypotheses that a gentle and gradual de-emphasis on the revenue (MBB/FB) and what I call semi-revenue (WBB, baseball) sports may be underway. Alleva's handling of FB has made us look as though we're trying to do things on the cheap and we don't really care about respectability in that sport. Baseball has been a disaster for the reasons people above have outlined. So I can, in fact, see a possibility that we're de-emphasizing sports at Duke, the final piece in the puzzle being some sort of non-proactive approach to MBB when K retires.

We're in the beginning phases of a crossroads. We've weathered one of the 5 worst sports media scandals of all time, we appear to have given up on baseball, we have a moribund football program with a coach who we like but whose success is pretty unlikely, we just let a future hall of fame coach in WBB walk, and Mike Krzyzewski is 60.

Unlike many folks on this board, I would guess, I can live with a Duke University that either (A) goes a Vandy route and subsumes the administration of athletics into the rest of the University administration or (B) gradually de-emphasizes sports to the point that we withdraw from the ACC and go a UChicago or WashU sort of route. (A) would be the responsible way to do things on the cheap but maintain some sort of I-A/major conference status. (B) would be, to me, an acceptable reformulation of our institutional mission. Most sports fans would prefer (C) an approach of more commitment to winning in the rev and semi-rev sports and not relying on women's golf and women's LAX for our good pub. I'm cool with that too.

What I cannot tolerate intellectually is this purgatorial in-between status in the four main sports, in which we're hanging onto respectability only by the presence of an aging legend in MBB, and, if we luck out, a home-run hire for WBB.

We need to either poo or get off the pot.

bird
04-05-2007, 02:01 PM
www.goduke.com posts a statement from G, with the following:


“Over the past few weeks, it has been disheartening to hear misinformation regarding Duke’s support of me and our program, specifically from Duke’s athletic administration. Before I entered into discussions with the University of Texas, Athletic Director Joe Alleva and Duke’s administration approached me with a contract that was more than fair and addressed all of the issues I felt were important to the continued success of the women’s basketball program.”

I am inclined to take this at face value. But Alleva has to be feeling the pressure.

SoCalDukeFan
04-05-2007, 03:05 PM
I'm not a big fan of the way in which some of our fans indict, particularly, the Faculty at large and Nan Keohane in actively trying to wreck Duke sports. The way that argument goes down on bulletin boards just gets a bit too "and Grant Hill served the beer."

Nonetheless, I respect hypotheses that a gentle and gradual de-emphasis on the revenue (MBB/FB) and what I call semi-revenue (WBB, baseball) sports may be underway. Alleva's handling of FB has made us look as though we're trying to do things on the cheap and we don't really care about respectability in that sport. Baseball has been a disaster for the reasons people above have outlined. So I can, in fact, see a possibility that we're de-emphasizing sports at Duke, the final piece in the puzzle being some sort of non-proactive approach to MBB when K retires.

We're in the beginning phases of a crossroads. We've weathered on of the 5 worst sports media scandals of all time, we appear to have given up on baseball, we have a moribund football program with a coach who we like but whose success is pretty unlikely, we just let a future hall of fame coach in WBB walk, and Mike Krzyzewski is 60.

Unlike many folks on this board, I would guess, I can live with a Duke University that either (A) goes a Vandy route and subsumes the administration of athletics into the rest of the University administration or (B) gradually de-emphasizes sports to the point that we withdraw from the ACC and go a UChicago or WashU sort of route. (A) would be the responsible way to do things on the cheap but maintain some sort of I-A/major conference status. (B) would be, to me, an acceptable reformulation of our institutional mission. Most sports fans would prefer (C) an approach of more commitment to winning in the rev and semi-rev sports and not relying on women's golf and women's LAX for our good pub. I'm cool with that too.

What I cannot tolerate intellectually is this purgatorial in-between status in the four main sports, in which we're hanging onto respectability only by the presence of an aging legend in MBB, and, if we luck out, a home-run hire for WBB.

We need to either poo or get off the pot.


except for a couple of typos.

Sports is competitive. So when you deemphasize a sport you become less competitive (or you move to a less competitive conference. ) You lose games. Who wants to play for a loser? or coach a loser?

I think if Duke is going to do something, it should try to do it well. So deemphasis does not work for me.

I am not sure if the Vandy route is working for Vandy or not. Maybe it is, I just don't know.

I would rather Duke try the Chicago/Wash U route then one that aims for mediocrity.

My preference would be a athletic program that aspired to be fully competitive in every sport in which it competed.

SoCal

Kewlswim
04-05-2007, 06:18 PM
www.goduke.com posts a statement from G, with the following:


“Over the past few weeks, it has been disheartening to hear misinformation regarding Duke’s support of me and our program, specifically from Duke’s athletic administration. Before I entered into discussions with the University of Texas, Athletic Director Joe Alleva and Duke’s administration approached me with a contract that was more than fair and addressed all of the issues I felt were important to the continued success of the women’s basketball program.”

I am inclined to take this at face value. But Alleva has to be feeling the pressure.


Hi,

I hope Alleva gives the new coach whatever it was that Coach G felt she needed to win. I am hurt by this whole affair. What a yucky year.

GO DUKE!

A-Tex Devil
04-05-2007, 06:32 PM
Unlike many folks on this board, I would guess, I can live with a Duke University that either (A) goes a Vandy route and subsumes the administration of athletics into the rest of the University administration or (B) gradually de-emphasizes sports to the point that we withdraw from the ACC and go a UChicago or WashU sort of route. (A) would be the responsible way to do things on the cheap but maintain some sort of I-A/major conference status. (B) would be, to me, an acceptable reformulation of our institutional mission. Most sports fans would prefer (C) an approach of more commitment to winning in the rev and semi-rev sports and not relying on women's golf and women's LAX for our good pub. I'm cool with that too.

We need to either poo or get off the pot.

Count me in the group that thinks we better poo.

I'd more or less stop following Duke athletics if option (B) above ever happened - and that'd be heartbreaking for me. I'm simply not close enough to N.C. to be able to do it in a meaningful way (TV, etc.). I don't know any U of C or WashU grads (or heck, even Ivy grads) down here (of which there are a lot) that are able to, or try to, follow their schools. I chose Duke over schools like those partly because the experience I'd have as a student and an alumnus following D1 big time athletics. Sounds shallow, but I'm not alone.

The attempt to improve is not that hard, though. We just gotta show the effort, which we haven't.

Football: If Roof shows improvement on the field, stand by him. If not, hire an up and coming D-1AA headcoach with some post season chops. We'd get one. And we may lose him after any success, but so what, get another one.

Baseball: Must admit, I'm not sure how the new guy is working out. Again, though, if he doesn't, there are a ton of small D1 head coaches in small conferences that would kill to get a chance at the ACC.

WBB: Boyle sounds good to me. If not, again, go for a young up and comer with head coaching and post season experience. They are out there.

MBB: When K retires we just gotta keep an open mind - but again - head coaching experience. (I'd love a Billy Gillespie type, whoever that may be in 2015 or whenever K retires).

Some of these moves may not work out. And we have to be willing to hire, and not shy away from, coaches who may leave upon any success. But if Alleva and Co. continue to settle for former assistants and unproven alumni, instead of showing some creativity and some willingness to shake things up, then, yeah, we need to clean house.

throatybeard
04-05-2007, 06:40 PM
And we have to be willing to hire, and not shy away from, coaches who may leave upon any success.

Concur 10000%.

Even if someone uses you as a stepping stone, they have to succeed to do that, and then you're at the level where they left you, instead of in the toilet like you were before they came. You keep hearing from informed people that almost no one of stature other than [very old] Bobby Ross was interested in the Duke job during the Roof search. But that was not the case during the Franks search, and we seem to have hired him partly out of a desire to do things on the cheap, and partly out of a fear that if we hired someone more qualified, who wasn't an alumnus, they'd leave after three years. If that's accurate, it's an asinine, defeatist approach.

Let me put this in a very shallow analogy. Would you rather be with Reese Witherspoon for 3 years and then she leaves you, or be with Tori Spelling for 3 years and then you reluctantly decide you have to dump her? I don't see how there's even a choice to make. The difficulty is in convincing Reese to get with you in the first place. So you bring your game, instead of insisting on going on dates armed with a $5 and a defeatist attitude.

To make it all come together, we just lost a future HOF coach who also happens to be an attractive woman. But I'm sure glad we got to date her for 14 years.

hughgs
04-05-2007, 07:45 PM
Count me in the group that thinks we better poo.


Baseball: Must admit, I'm not sure how the new guy is working out. Again, though, if he doesn't, there are a ton of small D1 head coaches in small conferences that would kill to get a chance at the ACC.

Baseball has made a rapid improvement this year. They have lost only one non-conference game, something unheard of the last few years. And, in-conference they beat #1 FSU. They need to win a few more in-conference games, but considering what they did previously, they are definitely rising.

That being said, baseball at Duke will always have a hard time. Between the number of scholarships available and the cost of tuition it will be a tough road to hoe. If you look at the rosters of the visiting team you will be shocked by the difference between the number of players.

Exiled_Devil
04-05-2007, 09:27 PM
Concur 10000%.

Even if someone uses you as a stepping stone, they have to succeed to do that, and then you're at the level where they left you, instead of in the toilet like you were before they came. You keep hearing from informed people that almost no one of stature other than [very old] Bobby Ross was interested in the Duke job during the Roof search. But that was not the case during the Franks search, and we seem to have hired him partly out of a desire to do things on the cheap, and partly out of a fear that if we hired someone more qualified, who wasn't an alumnus, they'd leave after three years. If that's accurate, it's an asinine, defeatist approach.

Let me put this in a very shallow analogy. Would you rather be with Reese Witherspoon for 3 years and then she leaves you, or be with Tori Spelling for 3 years and then you reluctantly decide you have to dump her? I don't see how there's even a choice to make. The difficulty is in convincing Reese to get with you in the first place. So you bring your game, instead of insisting on going on dates armed with a $5 and a defeatist attitude.

To make it all come together, we just lost a future HOF coach who also happens to be an attractive woman. But I'm sure glad we got to date her for 14 years.

Umm..Reese Witherspoon? Did I get the right answer?

Actually, I am right there with you on the non-metaphor. I think we need to think of Duke football like a mid-major in Bball - get a good coach and expect him to jump to a better job when he succeeds. Until we go thorugh 2 or 3 of those, we won't be able to attract anyone with a track record.

Exiled